The Best ‘Mad Borrowing’ Rant You’ll Read Today

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Broadsheet commenter Peter Farrahy writes:

“Let me see if I have this.

You base your economic growth on the building and housing market.

You stoke it up with tax breaks to developers and builders.

You protect the cement industry by refusing to introduce EU regulation on minimum standards of house insulation.

You encourage a people who have a built-in desire to buy their homes to “get in” before prices go beyond their reach.

You deregulate the banks and appoint regulators that don’t regulate.

You allow 100% mortgages and in some cases 120% mortgages and turn a blind eye to the fact that NO property bubble EVER had a soft landing.

You pay yourself some of the highest salaries in the world including almost unlimited expenses. You bask in the glow of the Celtic Tiger and sneer at all and any who question you.

You do nothing to control inflation, resulting in Tesco making higher profits in Ireland the the UK!

You allow a situation where we pay five times the European average cost for Pharmaceutical products.

Everything we pay for from insurance to schoolbooks cost whatever the seller decides to charge with no interference from any of the 850 quangos created for jobs for the pals and costing some €3 billion a year to run.

You sold off Eircom and set back broadband for a decade while the company was asset stripped and sold time and time again.

Instead of building a good rail network you built roads and then gave them to private companies to charge us to use them.

If we wish to go, by rail, from Cork to Wexford we must go via Dublin!.

And this is all because WE (the people) were greedy?

Ah, it is little wonder that I rant.”

Criticism of Kenny ‘Out Of Proportion’ – Hogan (RTE)

155 thoughts on “The Best ‘Mad Borrowing’ Rant You’ll Read Today

    1. collective democracy

      it could be worse, if we lived in Russia we would be afraid to discuss the choices of those we permit to represent us…

    1. Ineverthoughtidenduphere

      I think what PF meant in terms of infrastructure is by closing the 30 odd miles of railway between Wexford/Rosslare & Waterford , any rail journey, potential passenger or freight from Cork, Limerick/Shannon area, Galway, Waterford/Kilkenny must go via Dublin and down the coast to Wexford, which makes a mockery of The National Development plan Gateways & European Spatial Strategy for regional development.

      Might as well add,

      Thinking of selling off a stake in your future energy security in the times your going to need it the most..

      Selling the forests to Bertie…

        1. Ineverthoughtidenduphere

          Nope, We wanted to close most of ours in the 1940′s, had to wait until the 50′s and early 60′s to give it a good kicking,

    2. Jockstrap

      Yeah, that’s it Fred, ignore a completely valid list of strong points against the governments of the last ten years by focusing on just one.

  1. Louis

    Cringe – the Danish PM makes Enda look like somewhat of a potato head. I think most of us can add to Peter’s succinct list of how banana our Republic really is…

    1. youcrazyirish

      the danish PM in the photo above shows the facial expression of small eu countries who have been awake to the one sided negotiating style of large european countries – for a a long time now, (we used to be protected by water until we burned our twenty punt notes)

  2. hoopla

    You know when you put it like that
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    I can see why Enda Kenny has to be kicked out of office right now.
    (Excellent rant btw)

  3. Donal

    Yeah it is becuase “we” were greedy.

    As an electorate we voted for FF time and time again. whenever An Taisce or ESRI or whoever shouted stop we let special interest groups shout them down. Why were 100% mortgages allowed? because the country rose up in arms at anything that would stop first time buyers getting on the ladder

    With multi-seat constituencies Irish politicians are extremely sensitive to the public mood and totally in touch with the mood in each village and town in the country. They ran the country as “we” wanted them to

    My wife is from outside Ireland and she couldnt get over the level of conspicuous consumption and personal indebtedness that every single Irish person she met engaged in (me included).

    Maybe in “your” case you didnt take out big loans and spend money you didnt have but you were a tiny minority. We all partied.. simple as

    1. Tommy

      Bertie has said that if they ran the country based on sensible economic policies and didn’t reduce income taxes, increase ps pay etc. then FF would have been wiped out in 2002 and 2007. The people demanded these things and they got them. Now Bertie should have been a bit more conscientious and run the country for the benefit of the people and not his party but that is politics.

    2. Shogun

      You, sir, are a traitorous imbecile. “We” were not the government. The country “rose up in arms” because the bubble had been allowed to inflate in the first place, putting property out of reach for most first-time buyers. And we didn’t all f**king party, you incredibly fat, greasy ignorant moron. There was a minority of idiots who did, however what do you expect people who have never had much money to do, in a newly “rich” society when the banks just throw money at them? Say “No! I have enough here thanks.” If the banks had been regulated, if Europe hadn’t ploughed money at Irish banks, and the government had taken hold of the property “boom”, then perhaps you would have a leg to stand on when you say that it was all our own fault. What about the people who didn’t borrow recklessly? The people who couldn’t borrow recklessly, whose lives are ruined now?

      1. Donal

        traitorous imbecile
        incredibly fat, greasy ignorant moron

        classy

        anyway…. you have every right to be angry shogun, im angry too. But how do we stop it happening again if we only blame those who happened to be in power (politics, regulators, banks) at the time

        do you really think it would have been different if there was a different set of people in those positions? no chance. Whether you like it or not this is a very open democracy. Anyone can form a party and within a relatively short time be a minister in goverment (PDs and Greens) – that rarely happens in other countries

        so if you were such a genius and had all the answers, why didnt you go ahead and do that? simple answer is that even the 8000 or so votes need to be a TD would have been beyond you because NOBODY was interested in an “anti-boom” party during the boom itself!!

        1. orieldude

          How do we stop it happening if people in power are held to account? Er, are you for real… that’s exactly how you stop it happening – who, pray tell, has been held to account thus far?

          Besides the rest of your post is pure straw man rubbish. To reiterate: every penny sunk to date has been to refund the losses of bondholders in the banks. The crisis as it has existed since 2008 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the spending and borrowing habits of ordinary citizens. There maybe a problem with personal debt coming (the logical consequence of years of austerity) but it has not been responsible for the issues to date.

          So stop claiming that correlation equals causation.

    3. Hm?

      I tapped out at: “With multi-seat constituencies Irish politicians are extremely sensitive to the public mood and totally in touch with the mood in each village and town in the country.”.

      1. Ed

        Neither did I, and no I’m laughing. No personal debt, no responsibilities, and all thanks to self restraint and rejection of materialism. Colour me smug.

      1. Marty

        Wish I had partied. I could of had a few fun years and probably wouldn’t be much worse off than I am now.

  4. cluster

    We (the people) elected the government that you describe.

    We elected Bertie Ahern as taoiseach three terms in a row.

    1. hoopla

      that was because there was no viable alternative

      political options in ireland are the two pairs of gawping goldfish, the snippy tiddlers with the teeth or the ‘keep the tank clean’ party

      lucky us

      1. Donal

        ahh the “no viable alternative” copout

        that might work in a 2 party, single member constituency system but we always had lots of alternatives

        1. hoopla

          really….

          so out of:
          corrupt FF
          corrupt FG
          inexperienced snotsers
          inexperiences (and possibly psychotic) shinners
          (very few) indos

          What were the viable alternatives? Tell me I need to know who these people are and where in la-la land they live…

          1. Gav D

            While I see your point sir, I honestly think that the parties you’ve listed WERE in fact viable alternatives.

            I dont think the “viable alternative” argument holds up. In my experience its just a way people try to justify to themselves that they had a reason for voting for fianna fail, when retrospectively they feel conned and taken advantage of.

            While I know its just human nature to try and justify it, it does rankle when you rarely if ever see someone admitting that voting for fianna fail was simply a bad decision. Everyone wants to be the hero of their own story.

        2. Shogun

          YOU, are clearly not suffering at all. Count yourself lucky but don’t tell me that my life, and countless other friend’s lives have been ruined because Fianna Fail was elected, you narrow-minded weirdo.

          1. hoopla

            who me? i am clearly not suffering? before i fall off my axis laughing, can you tell me if that comment was directed at me?

          2. hoopla

            thank f*** – otherwise I would have been here half the day scanning in the red letters from the bank

        3. orieldude

          That would be the viable alternative pursuing all the exact same austerity policies now would it?

      2. hoopla

        There were alternatives but only alternatives as in choose one orange or the other from the fruit bowl.

        There was no alternative as in a party with intelligent sustainable economic fiscal policy based on slow sustainable growth without a ‘jobs for the boys’ attitude.

      3. small society intolerable external pressure

        if sinn fein move macdonald into point with the donegal blade as assistant and reassure the irish man and woman in the street that they do not have any dispute with 3000 years of european christian tradition the only question will be ‘which of the other parties will provide a grateful tanaiste?’ next time round

    2. orieldude

      Actually ‘we’ didn’t

      an average of 41% of the electorate voted for Fianna Fail politicians in their constituency, which means 59% voted for an alternative. That the alternative didn’t govern is not the fault of the voters.

      So get your facts right.

    3. rapmachine no diggidy no doubt

      i never voted FF for those who did, did they know how truly inept and dishonest bertie was?

  5. Action Man

    And with that one remark, Enda Kenny has absolved all the developers, banks, politicians, financial regulators, senior civil servants, Kevin Cardiff of any blame for the financial ruin we are facing today, What an ignominious c***t!

  6. Cian

    On a couple of points.
    Fine Gael didn’t do much of that deregulating and stuff – Fianna Fail did. And the people paid FF by voting them back into power in 2007.
    A rail network doesn’t work well in Ireland – cities are too close together to support transporting goods (because you have to get stuff off and stuff back on trucks. And in many places there isn’t sufficient density of housing to support local train networks. (This is only a part excuse for this one).

    Does anyone actually think that Eircom would have been better as a semi-state company? Have you paid any attention to ESB to see how something like that goes in Ireland? The government sold Eircom at the top of the market, it got raped by the unions in place at the time of course – sure if they had been ruthless free market people like Michael O’Leary they could have got more money out of it by picking the bones and then selling it. But relatively speaking they sold it before people became aware that broadband was being bypassed by UPC and Sky – and before mobile networks became so important.

    1. orieldude

      41% of those who voted, voted FF, 59% did not.

      67% of the eligible voters voted. Therefore 27% of the electorate voted FF, 40% voted for an alternative, and 33% of the electorate chose neither.

      So you get your facts right too.

      1. Ed

        No, that’s just not right. Were FG singing from a different hymn sheet on roads vs rail, mortgage and lending regulation, building energy regulations, education policy, etc etc? No, they absolutely were not, and I know because I was working in politics and watching. Labour barely were half the time, because any time they did, it was ‘loony economics’ or crazy talk, and down they went in the polls. We have one of the most responsive party systems in the entire world thanks to PRSTV, which is both good and bad, as we now know. It was bigger houses and two cars, even if that meant a two hour commute. And the worst thing is that we’re still vastly better off than we have been for the bulk of our nations’ history, yet think we’re living in hell. It might have been better if we’d never had the boom in the first place at all

          1. Ed

            and ^that^ is why things will never change. Blame everyone else but yourselves, shoot the messenger with the unpalatable message

  7. ConSki

    there’s far too much victim playing here in Ireland.
    It’s a reasonably complex issue – the whole world/country going tits up and all – and our own little yearns/wants/needs/semi-d/holidays had something to do with it.
    Greed is looked as a dirty word, but I’d like to live in a nice house, drive a comfy car and pay for me kids. If thats greed then yeah, I’m a Gordan Gecko

    1. Shogun

      Its ‘Gordon’, doormat boy. Now go off and play with your toys while the adults have a conversation.

    1. Shogun

      i’m sorry, I don’t mean to be so abrasive/needlessly rude, but I’m seething at the bullshit I have to encounter every day in this collapsing country. I’m so F**KING angry at what is happening to our lives, at how powerless we have become.

        1. Shogun

          Again, I can only apologise and hope that John will forgive me, I am very sorry for such a rude, not to say inaccurate, comment.

          1. Shogun

            Way to use smoke and mirrors to discredit my argument there EliManningsLeftNut. Just so we’re clear, FF f**ked this country, like any of the political options would have and probably will continue to do until the country is well and truly ruined. We have one of the most embarrassingly immature/inept political establishments in the world, well, perhape we have a better one than, say, Angola, and if you want to say something is “all our own fault” then that clearly is. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence, or a decent moral compass, steers clear of politics in this country, sadly. Why? Because it’s seen as a moron’s game. Why? Because it is populated by morons. Catch-22.

  8. pepe

    I know we ALL didn’t party, but a significant number did
    I’m amazed by the “THE BANK MADE ME BORROW !!! BAD BANK !!!” brigade.

    The same people would be patting themselves on the back if their “investments” had paid off.

    Not supporting Enda, just feel that there is SOME blame to be apportioned to the people of Ireland in general. It’s not 100% BANKERSANDFIANNAFAILEXPLOITEDUS !!!!!!!!

    1. Shogun

      Eh, it actually is, that and the European banks that recklessly loaned to our banks. That’s how economies work, if the banks, which one would assume are properly regulated (sadly they weren’t) just give out loans recklessly, then citizens will avail of them, it’s NOT the fault of the citizens if the banks are doing this in a criminally reckless way. Try to take off your Blinker-Vision™ glasses once in a while. And if you want to say we all partied, then Europe partied too, but why are we part of the few who are cleaning up the mess? Oh that’s right because we were holding the parcel when the music stopped … and like Ivor Callely and Sean Fitzpatrick’s hilariously timed arrests … there always has to be a scapegoat. Well, I’m f**king sick of being the scapegoat. I’m sick of paying for everyone else’s mismanagement.

        1. Shogun

          You do have a point. However, the majority of people (read: everyone) aren’t up shit creek because they borrowed too much from the banks. People needed homes.

          1. pepe

            ah I know.

            I’m just playing devil’s advocate, pointing out the absolute abdication of ANY personal responsibility that goes on.

            If I was to pluck an arbitrary number from my rear-end I’d say that most people in debt trouble have to take 3% of the blame for their situtation !

            That’s all I’m asking, people to admit they didn’t have a gun put to their head.

            In fairness, most do.

            We can all agree the Government and (very top) bankers are the bad guys.

          2. Shogun

            Okay, have your 3%. But look at an example like this one:

            The government knew how unfair the property market was and subsidised “Affordable Housing” (what a funny joke that turned out to be) for those earning below €50k a year. So, it wasn’t as easy as everyone makes it out, to get a mortgage for a first home, especially if you were an average working household. One bedroom apartments were selling for €300k, in BALLYMUN at the time. So the government were sold these apartments at €200k, which they then, through a lottery for applicants, offered as Affordable Housing. “Here’s an affordable apartment worth €300k, yours for just €200k, you win, you lucky so-and-so!” People bought them, because for many (probably tens of thousands) it was the only way to buy a home. It pays to remember that renting would have cost more, per month, at the time, so it seemed like a sensible thing to do.
            Skip to today, those tens of thousands of “Affordables” are mostly sitting on at least €100k of negative equity. The economy has crashed, there is mass unemployment, and the forecast is incredibly grim for the next TEN YEARS.
            I think its fair to say that those people weren’t partying, they just wanted somewhere to live, the government sold them an “Affordable House”. Now most of them are f**ked. They were misled by the government into buying what was an “Affordable House”.

  9. Victor Black

    Shogun is in a very bad mood today. ah Shogun lad cheer up…. come here. Give us a hug, go on, it’s not gay, give oul Victor a big hug.

    1. Shogun

      It has been building for months Vic, I cannot contain my anger any longer. I am FURIOUS. And you all should be too; what’s happening is not right. Our future, our children’s future, has been given away so European banks can look good. It is unfair, unequal, and grossly immoral. I don’t know if there are any unemployed people on this forum, but if you’ve reached the six-month stage you might know how I’m feeling, provided you haven’t pissed off somewhere – for lifestyle reasons …Thanks for the hug all the same, however I have gone past the hug stage

        1. hoopla

          as a “homo” on the boards, no offense taken. the only reason i dont like the word is it is a little too close to hobo. which is a bit too close to home right now.

          funny thing words – homo, hobo, home. Enda Kenny, sack of sh1t.

          1. ElizaF

            go ‘way. I know you’re only applauding the sack of sh1t remark.
            thats me, pandering to the masses, currying favour wherever I go….

          2. Victor Black

            Ah now come on lads, lets quite this fussin and a fueddin and get down to some kissin and a cuddlin

    2. hoopla

      Eughhh…..that is SOOO gay and not the good gay like me, the bad gay like squealing and Gimme Gimme Gimme.

      Eughhh.

      1. davos helicopter owner's club, neat dress essential

        you know it’s a bad day in the office when the P R folks send in their trolls to spam the discussion

      1. Victor Black

        Gosh you are right. the only people who bring a bit of positive into this circle jerk of negativity and we get censored. This country was built on lads snickering at the back of the church saying “would ye?” “I would yeah”
        FOR SHAME!!!!
        WAS IT FOR THIS?????

        1. hoopla

          Seriously, if the most positive you have to bring to “the party” (american accent, ironic inflection) is “I would” then stay at home, love.
          Mwah.

          1. ab

            no i lied. i am an ‘i wouldnt ‘when it comes to saying i would. that sort of thing is best left to the kn8bnut cheese collective that comments here.

    1. Smiler

      Because our political system doesn’t encourage bright, articulate or inventive politicians. Clientelism kills them off.

  10. Paul

    he’s an unmitigated joke. he’s gone from irrelevant to treacherous in the last couple of months. the thing is there are a lot of badly informed people out there who will believe what he says.

    Even though he contradicts himself and his policies time and time again, there’s a kind of Orwellian doublespeak that masses of the ‘keeping my head down working through this crisis’ accept. It’s like ‘poof!’ and we’ve forgotten yesterday’s truth and accept this new and completely opposite truth. It’s not your fault, it’s all your fault.

    Once he slows his speech like he did at Davos you know something really bad is coming. Remember the ‘Shtate of tha Nation’ address when he had two squeeze his hand to stop himself flicking us the v-signs? he did it verbally with his new billionaire buddies yesterday.

    1. Shogun

      The personification of a craven traitor. I actually felt sick as I listened to him coming out with that yesterday. I was dumbfounded. This is how he looks after his own in Europe, what a sycophantic, pathetic excuse for a man.

      1. MAD @Frilly Keane

        I did wonder, at the time, why he worked harder than the then FF Ministerial Flock for the Yes vote.

        I need wonder no more. Cowen, for all his faults and stains, would never have slagged off and demeaned the Paddies (on telly anyway) as that knob end.

        Take yer Pensions Enda and leave us alone. Take your bigoted friend with you, and don’t forget the Limerick sneert smart arse either.

        1. MAD @Frilly Keane

          Sneery smart arse BTW
          Ye know who I mean tho. Bald. Failed Fine Gael Leader. Worse Minister for Health ever. Actually that reminds me, his big gob got him into trouble there too.

  11. Jockstrap

    This ‘we’ business is annoying.

    Electoral turnout in 2002 was 62.5%
    Fianna Fail won 41.5% of the vote.
    That means only 30% of the eligible voting population actually voted for Fianna Fail.

    FF faithful always vote, every time. Which is why I tell my friends and family, if you don’t vote, they’ll vote for you.

  12. anauldone

    f*ckin traitor, Enda Kenny: the Irish people are childlike and immature and shur if you give us money we’ll only spend it all and cry when it’s gone, we need grownups, like the EU and the ECB and the German banks to step in and run things for us …

    1. Shogun

      We needed money to buy a home, in an inflated property market that was not self-inflated.
      The property prices were inflated, the banks increased what they were prepared to loan, so people took the loans to put a roof over their (family’s) head, in most cases. Is that reckless?

      1. pepe

        There was, in fairness, a significant amount of people that just bought because we’re obsessed with buying property here. (Still are by the way)

        Not saying they’re evil or deserve what they’ve got (far from it), just they didn’t HAVE to buy.

        I have friends who borrowed €400k+ to buy 2 bed apartment overlooking the M50. They didn’t HAVE to. They accept they a partly to blame for their situation.

        PARTLY

        Of course, there were people with young families that did really have to commit to purchase, for whom I have massive symapthy in particular.

    2. Louis Lefronde

      Broadsheet comment section is beginning to resemble p.ie with all the ranting and raving!

      Firstly, blame governmental incompetence.

      Second, blame the absence of a real opposition

      Thirdly, blame the absence of a robust civic society

      Fourthly, blame a hopeless media for being the cheerleaders of the bubble on the one hand and demanding ever higher expenditure on ‘social issues’ on the other. (ramping up private and public debt)

      Fifthly, blame corruption, incompetence and lack of accountability

      Sixth, blame ignorance

      Seven, blame those who lied about how much they were earning to boost their ability to borrow in ever higher quantities and with little chance of repaying if anything went wrong!

      Eight, blame the banks for borrowing from foreign banks and lending with wanton abandon, and exposing themselves to systemic collapse

      Nine, blame the unions for demanding more for their members (including benchmarking)

      Ten, blame Ahern for being a greedy horrible little fucker

      Eleven, blame the idiots who thought he was ‘the man’

      Twelve, blame the sun the moon and the stars.

      Then ask, where were you and when did you make your voices heard? Did you protest? Did you question. Did you challenge?

      Because, I seem to have heard little or nothing but the silence of the lambs between 2002-2008, and all I have heard in the last four years is ranting and raving, spin (usually political and media driven) with little of no substance other than anger.

      Citizenship is a two way process, you have duties and responsibilities and there was and there is a serious lack of both in Ireland.

      1. Stevie G

        Well f**king said. Whilst I have posted a lot on this website, I have wrote 4 letters to TDs and 1 to that Barbara Nolan. I attended the Anglo: Not Our Debt meeting on Tuesday night. I am also very much prepared to march on the Anglo issue and austerity measures.
        I am not saying all this for a pat on the back, but to show that there are things we could do. We dont have to ‘break stuff’ or kill somebody like in Greece. Democracy doesnt work in this country as politicians are not held to their election promises. There is a lot of energy on this site that could be used more constructively. I dont have a solution, but I do not let people walk all over me, especially those who are elected and paid to serve me.

      2. orieldude

        Yeah wonderfully smart.

        Now explain how personal debt levels among the rank and file are the reason unsecured bondholders in failed banks are being paid back by the Irish taxpayer.

        Enough straw men on Broadsheet today to built a house for a little pig.

      3. Mani

        Be a good lamb, and tell us exactly what you mean by ‘duties and responsbilities’?. Just so I know where I was lacking as a citizen betwen 2002-2008.

  13. Conal Mc Menamin

    You know your right….. But 3 times, that’s 3 times, we the dumb ass people of ireland returned FF to power. That’s 3 chance to get it right & 3 times we the people got it wrong!

    1. MAD @Frilly Keane

      Yeah. But how many of those elections was Enda FG leader? If I remember rightly now. Bertie was in the horrors and Enda still couldn’t land a punch.

  14. Paul

    http://youtu.be/qI5fcAhUQVo In Iceland the traitorous politicians had to file past the people who hurled eggs and other debris at them; the prime minister’s wife left the entourage, climbed the barrier and joined the crowd. They also jailed their politiicians, refused to pay back their bank debt to euro banks and are now out of recession. But hey they all partied.

    1. danial o'connell methods

      Iceland has a population of less than 500,000 – Ireland is around 6 million from Antrim to Annauscaul, Iceland’s ways are Iceland’s, Greece’s choices are Greece’s and when the thai people close down their international airport with peaceful protest and get the world’s attention that is their way of doing protest, like dan o’connell we choose to discuss the issues -in full- on equal terms with all involved and all looking on

  15. Conal Mc Menamin

    You know your right, But 3 times we the dumb ass people of Ireland voted FF in to power, 3 times we had a chance to get it right & 3 times we got it wrong!

  16. Owen O'F

    Christ on a cocking bike. What can’t people understand about the fact that, even without the enormous and immoral bank debt we are supposedly now carrying the can for, we would still have an utterly massive hole in our balance sheet because of rampant public spending, ratcheted up over the last ten years on the back of huge tax revenues, which have now collapsed with the construction industry? We are paying back bondholders simply because it is a condition imposed by the troika in return for keeping our day-to-day spending afloat. You can argue that this is a stupid deal, fine. But no amount of juvenile name-calling in these threads will change that fact.

    1. Shogun

      Well put. We DO need to take a good long look at ourselves in that regard. But we can only do that if we have some kind of stable economy, if we have some hope for the future. Most people are just trying to survive, while the government squander everything we’ve worked for. Also, as Paul says, “In Iceland the traitorous politicians had to file past the people who hurled eggs and other debris at them; the prime minister’s wife left the entourage, climbed the barrier and joined the crowd. They also jailed their politiicians, refused to pay back their bank debt to euro banks and are now out of recession. But hey they all partied.”

    2. Louis Lefronde

      +1

      The 1980′s recession happened and twenty years later the same dumb people forgot about it and repeated the mistake!

      Just wait for 2032, when it will happen all over again!

      1. hoopla

        it was different in the 80s – i was there for that one too and saw my parents go through hell when my dad was laid off – there were not so many people in hock for so much. no 120% lending it wasn’t so widespread. some did learn from it though and they are the ones that are “just about all right now” (or on a secure pension)

      2. orieldude

        Personal debt levels were minute in the ’80s – the problems then were caused by negligible growth, high unemployment, high taxes and collapsed consumer spending i.e. we’re recreating the 80s right here right now!

        So who isn’t learning from what mistakes?

        1. MAD @Frilly Keane

          No we’re not actually.

          Firstly we had a púnt.
          Secondly we had a much smaller population.
          Follow these with
          Less 3rd level options, that collected fees. No benchmarking, and no mad national payroll
          Much Higher Taxes.
          And very valuable Semi States

          When leaving in the 80s was on the cards, so was returning home one day.
          That’s not going to happen now.

          This depression is two generations from being history. But its not all bad. The Late Late will still be running

    3. orieldude

      Because the national debt was so low that if we weren’t paying back the investment losses of unsecured bondholders in failed banks we would have easily managed a budget deficit for 5-7 years while structural reforms were enacted. Furthermore we would have had the time to close the budget without imposing austerity measures that have destroyed consumer confidence and put more and more people on the dole unnecessarily.

      So Christ on a cocking bike why don’t you understand that the bank debt cut the legs out from under us so that any chance we had of wading out of the flood is now gone?

      1. Owen O'F

        I’m not discounting the bank debt. It was the first thing I mentioned. Yes, it’s contributed hugely to convincing the markets that we don’t have a hope in hell of paying it back. But we had the heaviest property crash (well overdue) in the world *at the same time*, and a consequent crash in government revenue that had slashed taxes and pumped up spending on the back on tax overreliant on the property sector. So for you to label the national debt ‘small’ and say we would have ‘easily managed’ our deficits is disingenuous at best.

        In fact, it’s balls. Consultants on 200k a year. Irish politicians earning more than their Euro counterparts. Prices down here a fifth higher than up North or the UK. We haven’t started ‘wading out the flood’ yet.

        1. orieldude

          Our national debt was tiny. That is a fact.

          And that fact means that we could have dealt with our budget deficits on our own terms.

          It is also a fact that without the bank bailouts we would not have had to close the deficit as quickly as we are trying to. By trying to close the deficit as quickly as we are, we are foisting unnecessary hardship on the most vulnerable members of our society and we are hammering the people whose taxes and consumption we rely on to pay the bills.

          In our efforts to cut spending quickly we are also cutting revenue as people stop spending (reduced transaction taxes) and people whose jobs rely on consumption lose their jobs (reduced income taxes, more reduced spending and higher social welfare).

          Making reference to consumer prices in the UK is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand – just another straw man.

  17. hoopla

    The thing is here, this was the first time that the Irish people have had access to huge sums of cash en masse. So yeah, some went a little mad, some went a LOT mad and some went dishonest mad aided and abetted by a system that thought the money would last forever.

    The real measure of the impact of this crisis will be:
    1) Do we accept the current political incompetents and ejiets who have let us down at every stage of the way (from both parties)
    2) Will me man up and borrow beyond our means again even if it is offered to us?
    3) We are a country of vast natural resources – will we hand them over to Europe on a plate as another ill-thought out, short-sighted interim measure to take us out of pan and into the flames?

    1. orieldude

      3) What vast natural resources? The oil that has only ever been found in Fintan O’Toole’s head?

      1. hoopla

        +1 if it were a joke but if not……

        {deep breath….}
        Natural gas, petroleum, peat, copper, lead, dolomite, barite, limestone, gypsum, silver and (limited) zinc.
        More here: http://www.infomine.com/countries/ireland.asp

        Remember from your geography – Agriculture in Ireland employs 5-7% of the populace at any one time. That figure has held steady for 20 years now. Fishing, forestry, livestock, and agriculture. Food export alone is an industry worth €7.15 billion annually.

        Those, are our natural resources!

    2. Louis Lefronde

      There you go, blaming Europe again. How easy is that? Very easy if you are following Sinn Fein’s script (blame Europe for everything) It is easy to forget just how much money was injected into Ireland from Europe which enabled and facilitated the economy to surge in the mid to late 1990s. But of course, the Irish have an episode which is known as short-term memory disorder. Ireland in the 70′s and 80′s was a total shithole with a capital city in urban collapse. So easy to forget, but then there was a generation who grew up knowing nothing of this and I assume quite a few of them bought into the bullshit pedaled that ‘we did it ourselves’ -

      1. hoopla

        Am not blaming Europe, I just do not want to be a part of their current creepy child-catcher “come and join us little kiddies” and we can all play nicely together. While you are doing well to ok, we own you and you do what you say, when things go bad, we will kick you out.

        You can be anti-murdering scumbags and anti-Europe. Did you know that? Did that permeate your brain.

        If you like Europe so much, fuc5 off back there.

      2. Paul

        it’s not easy to forget how much money was injected into us, we keep getting reminded when it comes to voting for ludicrous treaties…however we are paying that back plus threefold now. will you remind us about that in 2023 when we are still ‘paying back’ europe for their banks losses?

  18. Stevie G

    A lot of points made here saying that its the banks fault for lending so much.
    A lot of points made here saying that it’s the people’s fault for taking the loans.

    There is truth in both statements, but I think the responsibilities lie more with the banks, both legally and morally. They have the duty, and the expertise. They should have had the regulation mechanisms in place. There is an onus on them to only produce products that are sustainable.
    If a supermarket started selling a food which was really bad for you, but was really cheap and tasty, and that it was found after a period of time to cause cancer, what would be the reaction?

  19. Ed

    The Greens opposed almost every single one of those excesses. No one voted for them. Labour opposed a lot of them, as did SF. FF and FG did not, and that’s who the people voted for. It’s democracy – the people got what they wanted, right or wrong. It’s not leadership, but it is representative democracy. Representative of the will of the vast majority.

    1. Lei

      I voted for them. I voted for them over FF every shagging time.

      Last time ’round I saved up and made a trip back to vote for them from my new home where I’m now living for lifestyle reasons. FML

  20. Conti

    I think we should forget about petitions and write a big apology to Enda for us being so greedy. We’re sorry Enda, please fix it for us and we won’t do it again.

  21. emigRANT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUTCXFFj6HM

    Just watching this video reaction to enda’s comments, the woman at 40 seconds should be shot. Firstly supporting enda and then agreeing with Noonan’s comment about emigration being a lifestyle choice. Sorry love you clearly don’t have any children in their late teens or twenties. Your generation of idiots f**ked us royally. As economic emigrant I can tell you one thing the people I’ve met and the stories I’ve heard are a lot different to your misconstrued view of the world.

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