The Choice Is Yours

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ConcernedArchitect writes:

So, I was job hunting on Thursday night and came across this travesty (above) on the FAS site Why is this such a travesty?

Because while looking into the company behind it, I found this –

The exact same job, but for 25-30k PLUS commission.

Ah.

Land Mapping Engineer (JobBridge)

Vacancies (CommercialEnergy.ie)

 

53 thoughts on “The Choice Is Yours

  1. Timmy

    Perhaps they can afford 1 experienced full time hire and 1 intern. If you read the listings, it looks like you don’t have to be nearly as experienced to get the internship position. I know there’s a lot of shite on JobBridge but this one sounds fair enough.

    1. Dec

      Ah here…. No way, the job bridge ad is just watered down a little they still want the full BER certification of the intern who, if already certified shouldn’t be going anywhere near a job bridge. Its an absolute joke. We had to remove ‘jobbridge’ from my profession because as a governing body we decided it was a means for unscrupulous individuals to exploit our new graduates. We agreed that having completed four years of an extremely difficult course and also having spent 1000 clinical hours, all graduates were entitled to paid employment even in these difficult times we couldn’t justify exploiting graduates and to be deemed ‘interns’ despite their ability to work autonomously within the profession after graduating. Seeing this makes me very sad……….

    2. cluster

      The description is not for an internship. It is looking for a relevant degree and further training (BER assessor and CAD) done already.

      This is precisely not what jobbridge is for. If they were offering to train up a fresh grad and put them through the SEAI course and exams, then fair enough maybe.

  2. Fredtheninja

    I work in employment services and I see new internships such as this going up every week in Munster. Totally taking advantage of the system.

      1. Frodo Baggins

        I’m just so shocked at how low the pay is for an achitect, or someone with a degree in architecture.
        Depressing.

          1. Frodo Baggins

            Can I ask where you’ve gotten that from? Whee in my post have I said anything about anyone with a degree in engineering?

            To be honest 25-30k for anyone with a degree in anything coupled with experience is very low.

          2. cluster

            It was a sin of omission, you responded to a post regarding a position for someone with a degree in architecture or engineering. You made a few different posts on how poorly treated architects are, how difficult a degree architecture is, how much sympathy architects deserve.

        1. Spaghetti Hoop

          I actually think that salaries are comensurate with experience, not qualifications.

          But I agree, that is shockingly low pay.

  3. medieval knievel

    correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t job bridge intended to give people the experience/qualifications to seek a job – rather than demanding that qualification for the internship itself?

  4. Simon

    From Job Bridge website: The host organisation currently may not have vacancies in the area of activity in which the internship is offered.
    i.e. doing what this company has done is in breach of the rules of the scheme and they should be reported. You are allowed advertise the internship in places other than the job bridge website, i.e. you could put an ad in a newspaper for the internship.

    Secondly, you are allowed ask for qualifications and skills but NOT previous experience.

  5. Sidthesexist

    I know a long established recruitment company in Dublin 2 who are exploiting the Jobbridge system by hiring interns to replace higher paid staff. The owner is a miserly greedy sort who wouldn’t spend a penny on making the offices look any way decent.

    But their home is a palace of course.

  6. Zsofia

    Once, more than 2 years ago, I saw a Fas ad for a north Dublin architect who was looking for 3-5 years experience. I got excited but scrolled down and saw the same, internship, not paid. I sent him the following letter:
    “Dear XX XX
    Hussey Architects,

    I would be interested in the recent job offer I’ve seen on FAS.ie.
    I have the qualification M.Sc. in Architecture, and 3 years of experience after graduation. Could give portfolio website address and other references on request.
    There was one thing I could not really understand, and I would like to ask about if it was a mistake.
    The sought person is someone with 3-5 years of experience, for a placement programme? “This is a work experience programme and does not offer a salary”
    Is that serious? In this case I would rather work as waitress, thank you.”

    So I worked in bar job and waitress since then. There you go.

    1. Parp

      So instead of getting a foot in the door at something you wanted to do, and studied and worked previously at before.. you decided to become a waitress for a few years (more than 2)?

      That’s sensible.

    2. Simon

      Idiot, with your attitude you’ll continue to be just a waitress. (No disrespect to waiting staff intended)

      1. Frodo Baggins

        Wow lads … Just wow.
        That’s me done with BS for the day.
        Incredibly poor attitude to have toward someone who refused to be taken advantage of.
        Gobsmacked.

      2. Zsofia

        I could not live on my parents/partner’s money and the dole and keep on working years in unpaid internships. Moreover, I did not need the type of experience when the period is over I would be out on the street again swapped for a new free staff. When there is no demand for your profession you still have to eat and should consider to do something is actually sought and paid for, let it be something you despise. I think the type of attitude like yours keeps this internship scam business going. Btw, I just got offered a real paid position, and in the meantime while waiting, I used my time sensible and studied/worked on freelance paid jobs.

  7. Frodo Baggins

    I actually genuinely have a lot of sympathy for qualified architects. I know several who’ve had to move to London and elsewhere for work. Always seemed such a prestigious qualification to me, actually it still does – combining high levels of creativity and technical skill / knowledge, incorporating an understanding of complex mathematics and even physics.
    Fair play, hope you swing a job somewhere here rather than having to resort to an overseas jaunt – although if you’ve nothing tying you to these shores, it’s worth a look.

      1. Zsofia

        Dear Frodo,
        Of course I had stuff to tie me here, an other 2-year MA course and a relationship.
        I thought the JobBridge scheme to be really a good idea first, but these cases when they explicit ask for years of experience should be removed because they undermine not just the scheme but other professionals’ chances to ask for a salary they should deserve.

    1. cluster

      Agrree in general but one pedantic note. Architecture does not require an understanding of compelx mathematics and physics. At all.

      1. Jones

        Well then you clearly know nothing about architecture. Tell an architect in training that they have no need for complex maths or physics and they’ll quickly put you in your place!

        1. cluster

          I happen to work in the field. Architects pass off all complex mathematics and physics to other professions.

          That is one major reason that the following all exist as distinct professions within the built environment: geotechnical engineers, structural engineers, fire engineers, transport engineers, building service engineers, building physicists, facade engineers, acousticians, economists, lighting engineers….and there quite a number more.

          I am also giving grinds currently to a couple of architectural students so don’t try pretend that I am not up to date.

          Architects are useful and important professionals but their work does not genuinely involve an understanding of complex mathematics or physics, as I sais originally.

    2. Redtop

      The “Overseas Jaunt” may just be the way to go. In previous recessions, so many degree qualified young people had to emigrate, as there was nothing at home. Emigrating was not all that bad after all. Lots of great experience abroad. Consider it a new adventure. You can always come home when things pick up but you will have invaluable experience under your belt. Embrace it.

  8. JK

    I have a Masters in Architecture which took me 6 years to achieve (the norm). I have two years experience. BUT I am not qualified to apply for this position as I have not yet recieved my professional qualification.

    Bit of a joke if you ask me. Its almost as if these people don’t understand the profession

  9. Kolmo

    Architecture seems to be a bit of a closed shop, one has to be a total chancer/chin-stroking waffler with gullible clients to make any money, (which I know a lot of people do not do). Perceived prestige of the job is what keeps hard working young people scrimping for years…not worth it, I work in a more specialised area but an area looked down upon by some architects, snobbery is what keeps this bullshit floating.

  10. ex pat

    I am in favour of Job-bridge as a concept; however anyone wasting their time goings to FAS looking for people in a sector with a skills shortage and not being prepared to train them from Engineer/Architect level up.

    90% of the skill in energy assessment is measurement of the building or unit which any built environment professional from engineer to surveyor to architect will have.

  11. Dsquared

    @Kolmo
    Are you for real? I spent six years in college to become a professional yet you would think nothing of paying your doctors or lawyers large fees and at the same time think that architects don’t deserve the same money for their services? And if you think that there is any ‘prestige’ in being up to your knees in muck on a site in November you obviously haven’t a clue what an architect does.

    1. cluster

      On purely economic logic, architects do not necessarily deserve the same money for their services as other professionals.

      Lawyers are necessary to navigate people and companies through an obligatory and complicated system at critical times. There is no choice but to use them, unfortunately. Doctors have an important technical expertise in a relatively narrow area. There is no real choice but to use them.

      What do architects have? They are designers and co-ordinators. The technical expertise in this field is held by engineers and the financial/organisational side is run by developers, quantity surveyors and project managers. The actual construction is carried out by contractors and site engineers.

      This aesthetic function and design co-ordination function is hugely important in my view but not strictly necessary and is subjective anyway. There is also competition for this role. Could an artistic engineer do it? There are plenty of examples. What about an industrial designer with a bit of experience? Could a designer or artist pull together a design team and do it? It happens more and more these days.

      Most architecture students seem to be attracted by the idea of being something akin to a top fashion designer rather than boring professionals. This is very understandable but not lucrative for 99% of these students.

        1. cluster

          Most of the views I expressed above are discussed in the RIBA document, ‘Building Futures’ http://www.buildingfutures.org.uk/projects/building-futures/the-future-for-architects

          Labelling anyone who holds a view other than ‘architects are the most vital cogs in society’ as culturally ignorant results in a de-skilled and arrogant body of architects. Thankfully not all architects hold that view.

          I have worked with architecture firms in a number of countries. Irish and British firms were, with some very honourable exceptions, the least technically able and the most arrogant.

          Even in those other countries (Denmark, Germany, America, Holland) the typical architect does not earn the same as a top corporate lawyer or proctologist, which brings me back to my original point. That being said, I know which job I would rather do.

  12. Sun

    Interesting argument, I have to say I am completely annoyed and dissappointed by the architectural profression and its profressional bodies!!As a young architect with experience,there is no support from our so called profressional bodies with regards to rights of payment for your work, decency in the workplace,etc the list goes on. Its a joke as a profression,filled be complete ego’s, who ruin it for the rest of us, its severely under paid/or not paid at all and generally most practice are badly managed and staff are treated appallingly. I have now gone into project management where people are respested for there knowledge and skills, you actually get paid what your worth and you learn the art of building and construction!!!
    by the way as an architect i have never needed maths or physics along my career path, so i dont know where that person gets there info about what architects do..they sit in a office and do cad(even after 6-7 years of university)

  13. octo

    Jaysus, Architects. Get real please. You started your studies during a building boom, but it’s over. There aren’t enough jobs for all graduates. Face facts. Most of you aren’t going to get a job in Ireland. It’s a tough situation.

  14. Selina Kill

    Outrage!

    JobBridge: fine for them.

    When it starts affecting us though, the qualified, the educated, that’s a different story.

    Bring it on. When the newly qualified solicitors, accountants, medics etc realise that jobBridge afftects them and what’s involved, then maybe something will happen.

    1. bleepblopbloo

      Some people really need to grow up, and stop acting like they don’t have a voice or power to change things. Just because someone is a solicitor, accountant or even dare I say, architect, because let’s be honest, that used to be lumped up there, along with doctor and engineer, doesn’t mean they rule the world, and dictate the agenda.

  15. bleepblopbloo

    Jobsbridge is an absolute farce. My brother went to work will a very well known company, and was supposed to be undertaking general admin tasks. “General admin tasks” included: cleaning the boss’ room; arranging his photo album; working well into the night – four or even five times a week, without any reimbursements for buses or taxis which had to be taken to get home; buying certain utilities for the company out of his own pocket and being asked to help out with family events at the weekends.

    Was then told when he left, that they didn’t think he was able for the profession anyway! Just totally injust and despicable

  16. hud

    Lazy shites, get back to work and keep the gaps in you CV filled! People were going to work for REM Koolhaus for 16k a year, and they actually had to save up to do it because the accommodation cost so much! The ad is for a graduate to gain experience in BER, if you’re not doing anything else, get off your hole and do it!

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