112 thoughts on “Every Woman Matters

  1. Celticon

    Jesus, I’m curious as to why we have so many TDs. What the hell do you all do…apart from obviously nothing?

  2. Celticon

    Incidentally, any of you who abstained and aren’t on your death bed should be (a) ashamed of yourselves and (b) flogged and turfed out of office.

      1. BC

        Because unless you tow the party line you’re chucked out as happened to Tommy Broughan when he wouldn’t vote in favour of the budget the other year. They all want their scraps from the table so they do as their master bids as do all the incompetent sheep that have found their way into power in this nation over the years. Bunch of muppets every last one of them. Democracy my h*le

        1. domquixote

          Obvious solution, vote independent only. Replace all these pointless party political pricks with, well, virtually anybody other than career politicians. We might even see actual debates, rather than debacle after debacle

  3. Sarah

    Paddy, your question is on the lips of every Labour voter in the country, for as much as I can tell, when it came to issues like the X case, they were in support. Will not vote for them again after this, save for the support of the two independent Labour TDs who both did a yes.

  4. cross-eyed cow

    Everybody has a moment in their life where they realise the truth about the Irish Labour Party.

    Tonight was yours.

    1. Stephen

      Let it be known that as bad as the Labour Party are, they are not nearly as bad as the two main parties in Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

      1. Butnae

        Yeah really sad to see how divided across party lines this was. Not one of them on the No side had the guts to vote with their conscience. Also sad to see how many didn’t bother to vote including the likes of Shane Ross, Creighton, Kenny etc. Really a pathetic bunch of individuals just looking to keep their own nest well lined for winter.

        On the other hand… as much as I agree with their cause, that chanting of “shame, shame” is really embarrassing. I cringed… hard…

        1. ZeligIsJaded

          +1

          Very bad! Way too many sentimental films being watched. Still though – Candle-makers having a great run in to Xmas, fair play to them!

      1. ZeligIsJaded

        It would be kinda funny if this non-issue was what finally brought the Irish on to the streets in revolt

          1. ZeligIsJaded

            You make it sound like an unstoppable plague. In light of the problems facing this country, the amount of people dying in our hospitals while lying on trollies, the sickening poverty, the hungry schoolchildren, the cuts to the disabled etc etc etc……….Yes, this is a non-issue, relatively speaking – Women die in hospital every day, as do men – Maternity wards are rarely the scene – Something should undoubtedly be done, but the disproportionate response over the last few weeks speaks volumes about the distorted priorities of a society in crisis

          2. cluster

            Diasgree ZeglisIsJaded.

            This issue neatly demonstrates the problem we have with our political system. It is one thing to debate how money should be raised and spent, where cuts to budgets can or should be made. But basic competence and integrity shouldn’t cost extra.

            The Supreme Court has made a judgement, there was a follow-up referendum, the ECHR told us our law needed clarity, a number of prominent doctors have said the law needs clarity. Everyone knows that thousands of women go abroad for abortions every year.

            So what is the hold-up about passing the necessary legislation? Cowardice and grubby election arithmetic. If they do nothing, they risk less votes.

      2. cluster

        We had revolution. The problem is with the mundane day to day when the initial excitment has ebbed away and the tricky and often tedious job has to be done usually with little public acclaim or interest.

        1. ZeligIsJaded

          My last comment was incredibly insensitive – I worded it dreadfully. I meant that dithering on the issue of abortion is rarely the cause, rather than “Maternity wards are rarely the scene”. Apologies

          1. ZeligIsJaded

            Hi cluster,
            Supreme Court did not call for legislation. Regulation/Guideline would suffice.

            Clarity on the other hand is of course required.

            Going to England for Abortion is irrelevant in my opinion.

            people travel to Switzerland for Euthanasia.

          2. Catherine

            I disagree. I think both should be accessible to people in Ireland if they wish. You are also underestimating the psychological trauma that comes from having to go abroad to seek an invasive procedure such as abortion. What women need is support to help them begin the healing process, not banishment and silence.

          3. ZeligIsJaded

            Hi Catherine,

            I am not underestimating the trauma, nor am I unsympathetic.

            I’m simply saying its not helpful in light of this debate.

            I agree on Euthanasia, and I also think drugs should be legalised etc.. But pointing to the amount of people who go to Amsterdam to take drugs, is not a valid argument in the context of Irish law

  5. Jeremy Kyle

    Mattie McGrath – “Getting the Work Done”.

    Oh and I think I’m in love with the girl in the first photo.

    1. ZeligIsJaded

      Yeah but she seems to have some form of speech restricting apparatus attached to here face – Shame she couldn’t chant “Shame”

  6. Timmy

    I don’t think it’s a shame. I’m glad the TD’s we elected didn’t let hype interfere with their judgement. We need debate and reflection on such a major issue. Please note Broadsheet that not all the people who view this website are pro-choice.

    1. Ned

      I’m not pro-choice either but I have no problem with people who are and if legislation is passed well then fair enough. But it does seem like broadsheet has turned into the abortion champion and as a result there’s non stop abortion stuff everyday. From what I gather I get that youth defence are loons but equally I’m starting to get the impression that BS are trying to counter balance. As a result I find myself not visiting the site as often as I used to.

      1. BC

        This is not an issue about balance, too many people on both sides are dragging this whole issue into the abortion/religion category which it’s not ultimately about at all. The issue I have is with the way TD’s vote as per party instructions, which it’s clear from the No’s in FG and Lab that this happened. This was voted down not because each individual considered it from their own personal feelings and beliefs, but because the reigning king clowns decided they wanted to do it their way which they believe is better….I personally doubt it….this is a power issue not a conscience issue

        1. Sidewinder

          Better to be like RTE and give the lunatic fringe a go? Lets have guest posts from well informed, always honest individuals like David Quinn and Breda O’Brien.

          BS’s coverage has been about these protests and about legislating for x which the vast majority of the country are in favour of.

          1. Sidewinder

            I know I saw. I really hate RTE. I remember being at a student protest years ago, one of the biggest ones in 2009 I think, about 40,000 people who up, RTE gave it about a minute before the break. Gave at least 5 minutes for three days to UK student protest then.

  7. Cracker

    Please note Timmy that the Irish people voted on this 20 years ago and decided that yes in fact women do deserve the basic human right to life. Also a reminder that this bill was also put forward 6 months ago, before Savita was even pregnant, so I don’t see how you can claim this was rushed in any way.

  8. Cracker

    Please note Timmy that the Irish
    people voted on this 20 years ago and decided that yes in fact women do deserve the basic human right to life. Also a reminder that this bill was also put forward 6 months ago, before Savita was even pregnant, so I don’t see how you can claim this was rushed in any way.

  9. Huh

    It was a huge disappointment, how the TDs were treated on their way out. Some of the protesters ensured their argument was easily dismissed by acting as a baying mob. As a pro-choice advocate, I’m reconsidering attending next week.

    1. ZeligIsJaded

      You mean to say they were like a large group of irrational, self-righteous, debate-hating, Pro-Life loon resembling, candle burning martyrs?

      Jayzus – not like them – find that hard to believe !

    2. Catherine

      It’s a shame that you should let a small group of individuals silence you. With every movement there is a small group of nutcases who ruin it for others. Don’t let them deter you, and for what it’s worth, you should stand up to them and tell them what they are doing is wrong.

  10. Bob

    They voted against it because they are currently drafting their own abortion legislation. It will be worded the way they want.

    1. BLC

      Exactly. Unless Clare Daly is a complete eejit, she will have known that this was not the way to get a bill passed. Contentious issue? You seek cross-party consensus beforehand. Yes, it takes actual effort, and it’s harder than being the steel-eyed ineffectual rebel – but it might work.

      It’s grandstanding. She knew she hadn’t a hope of anything except a painless martyrdom.

      1. Lorcan Nagle

        Sinn Fein and the ULA said repeatedly during the week and during the debate last night that they would gladly shelf the vote if they could schedule time for a debate in regular parliamentary hours.

        Fine Gael and parts of Labour claimed that Claire Daly’s bill was incomplete or needed work – but if there was a Yes Vote last night it would have been worked on before being passed into law. It would have been a start, at least.

        The government has dug their heels in on this issue, and are refusing to budge for no reason other than stubbornness.

        Savita Halapanavar’s death was a tragedy, but it was a real eye-opener for a lot of people who assumed we could put the legislation to protect doctors on the long finger because hey, our health care’s decent enough. It’s been 20 years since the X case provided for abortion in the face of health risks to the mother. But doctors’ hands are often tied by other legislation like the 1861 act. And that’s what Claire Daly’s bill wanted to clear up.

      2. cluster

        Clare Daly knew that the bill would not be passed but she is keeping the pressure on the govt and for that she should be applauded.

        Remember that legislation has been promised before and has been let slide back into obscurity every time. FF promised to legislate if the twenty-fifth amendment was defeated, which it was.

    2. General Waste

      Finally some sense on this post. The Labour TDs were whipped last night just as the hard right FG TDs will be whipped when the government (eventually) brings its legislation forward. It’s called party politics/government/democracy etc.

      1. cluster

        It is one of the issues of our system. We lack real parliamentarians. Even in the UK and the US, legislators often cross party lines.

        In our political parties, it seems that it is acceptable to do almost anything (lie, steal, take bribes, intefere with important decisions for personal reasons, come on air drunk, inflate a property bubble) but vote with your conscience.

  11. Sido

    I watched RTE news last night. As expected they announced that the Yes Vote had failed(a matter of some 20 seconds). And then went on to start speculating about the Budget in one weeks time for the rest of the parliamentary report.

    I also noted that in respect of News Items that can be broadcast on RTÉ.
    A policy change announced last week declares that any story a journalist receives must be confirmed by two independent sources – which funnily enough must make the government probably the main source of news in the country. Fans of Orwell will be happy to note that this is because they want to make sure that they are broadcasting the truth.

    1. BLC

      But it’s not big news, Sido. It’s a sideshow a few weeks before the proper bill. It changed nothing, and was never likely to.

    1. The Dog

      Na, They were shouting Shane. Poor Shane Macgowan, just going for a few pints and had to deal with that shower.

  12. Munkifisht

    Really wish we could get away from the emotive terms Pro-choice and Pro-life. I don’t think people who are for abortion are anti-life, I don’t think people who are against it are anti-choice. Can we all start to say Pro-abortion and Anti-abortion please and do away with the US driven (AKA, idiot speak) lingo.

    1. Bangalore

      No because pro choice arent pro abortion. we are pro having the option of abortion if a woman decides she needs one. There is a big difference

    2. woesinger

      You’re having a laugh. “Pro-choice” means pro women making the choice of what happens to and inside their bodies for themselves, usually accompanied by the view that abortion should be safe, legal, and preferably rare, whereas “pro-abortion” would imply you think abortion is only mighty, the more the merrier, sure I think I might have one for breakfast, dinner and tea.

    3. Munkifisht

      Good point, but I still think the language on both sides is far too emotional. Pro-abortion is not the correct term, but perhaps something that is more reasonable can be found.

        1. Jolly

          Pro choice = for every woman’s right to choose to HAVE an abortion or NOT to have an abortion.
          For me being pro choice also includes that the choice should be made freely and not based on your financial circumstances – with that in regard I do not consider Labour to be pro choice anymore. Not only because they have voted against this legislation, but also because they have voted for budgets that made life for single parents in particular and families in general a lot more difficult in the past few years.
          A recent survey found that 1 in 10 Irish people lives in food poverty and nearly two million of us have less than €25 a week to spend once essential bills are paid. Health insurance is up over 50 per cent in just two years – and will climb again in January. How is anyone from a low or middle income background to make a free choice if they get pregnant in this reality?

          1. Sidewinder

            Just to be pedantic if you actually look into how that survey was conducted it’s beyond ridiculous. By their standard I’m living in food poverty.

            I’m not.

      1. Mark Dennehy

        You’re assuming that “anti-choice” is in some way an inaccurate descriptor; but it’s not, it’s just plainly stated truth.

        Mind you, with some of those on the anti-choice brigade, plainly stated truth is either too complex to understand or is considered offensive, and we can’t offend any religious group, so we’re not allowed state openly that they’re the western world’s form of religious fundamentalism…

        1. Jolly

          Sidewinder: Well that may be the case for you. All you need to do is look around you and talk to people to know that plenty of people are poor and have nothing left at the end of the week/month. I know that if i got pregnant now I would not be able to afford to keep it – I also would not be able to afford to travel.
          The only option left would be to order abortion pills online and that is only an option up until 9 weeks. It is also illegal and I could face prison for life if the law (from the 1800′s) is enforced.

          1. Sidewinder

            I know and I agree with you. I’m just making a point about the survey. Hence “Just to be pedantic”.

          1. Mark Dennehy

            You think that lot wouldn’t show up on your doorstep if they thought it worthwhile to “the cause”?

            Only difference between that lovely bunch of coconuts and the ones blowing up doctors’ cars in american clinics is that the US has Roe-v-Wade and we don’t. When that changes, the PDF’s bomb squad will probably see a workload increase.

          2. Mark Dennehy

            I mean an abortion carried out by a doctor in a medical facility, as opposed to someone throwing themselves down a flight of stairs or wondering what exactly it is you’re supposed to do with the coathanger and whether the solid plastic ones from M&S are okay to use for this.

        2. ZeligIsJaded

          Anti-choice is an inaccurate descriptor in that it lumps everyone into the same category. Its similar to describing Pro-Choicers as in favour of ‘abortion mills’.

          The language throughout this debate is incredibly problematic, and rarely caters for the complexity of the views involved.

          I’m not religious, not even slightly, but I am uncomfortable with those who seem to use it as a dirty word.

          1. Mark Dennehy

            It’s perfectly accurate. Pro-choice; you want abortion legally available as a medical option. Anti-choice; you don’t want abortion legally available as a medical option.

            Anti-choice is completely accurate as a descriptor. It’s pro-life that’s inaccurate, as we’ve had graphically demonstrated to us all in the past few weeks.

          2. Mark Dennehy

            I mean an abortion carried out by a doctor in a medical facility, as opposed to someone throwing themselves down a flight of stairs or wondering what exactly it is you’re supposed to do with the coathanger and whether the solid plastic ones from M&S are okay to use for this.

          3. ZeligIsJaded

            So you’re not at all confused by the prospect of a surgical procedure that treats suicide.
            Fair enough – seems to have the psychiatrists scratching their heads though! You should explain it to them

          4. Mark Dennehy

            Would these be the same psychiatrists who’ve been prescribing drugs for decades to treat psychological conditions that can lead to suicide? Or just the ones that work for Youth Defence who say that prayer can cure clinical depression and they should just snap out of it?

            (And aren’t you the very clever person, hiding that incredibly complex question that would bring down the whole pro-choice campaign until you saw your opening, you tactician you!)

            /facepalm

            Seriously, doesn’t broadsheet have any age limits that stop 13-year-olds posting on here? Isn’t there a law about that kind of thing?

          5. Mark Dennehy

            BTW…

            a surgical procedure that treats suicide

            If I find a surgical procedure that can successfully treat suicide — outside of a Mary Shelley book that is — I’ll be sure to let you know.

            It’s preventing suicide that you’re trying for, given that curing death is, y’know, kindof ambitious as a goal for our healthcare system…

          6. ZeligIsJaded

            Well played – ok – same point – a surgical procedure that prevents suicide seems to have the psychiatrists scratching their heads.

            Its not as clear cut as you suggest.

          7. ZeligIsJaded

            Well if I didn’t know you were so well read, I’d persist in this little tete a tete, but as you seem to be privvy to the details of a tradition of surgical procedures that can prevent suicide, I find myself out of my depth. Again, touché!!!!

            But maybe some time you’d be good enough to enlighten us – do leave aside labotomy and EST when you do though – I’m squeamish!

          8. Mark Dennehy

            Ooooooo, lobotomy and EST, but don’t talk about them ‘cos you don’t want to point out that today those procedures are nothing like what you saw in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest or Return to Oz; that they’ve actually proven useful in specific, fairly extreme cases; or that how they’re done has been changed dramatically in the name of being more humane. But that kind of thing would be awkward to mention to the anti-Choice camp, so let’s not.

            Lets instead point out that early abortions are carried out chemically, using a happy little pill; and that psychiatrists have been dispensing pills for a very long time to treat things like depression (which is a leading cause of suicde). In both cases, take the pill, treat the depression, prevent the suicide.

            Not that you’d want to disparage a profession, but this specific comparison doesn’t exactly need a degree in rocket science to comprehend.

            Not that you’re actually trying to, of course – the entire anti-Choice “campaign” is one of avoiding debate, avoiding comprehension and avoiding contemplation in favour of dogma and uninformed emotional caterwauling.

          9. ZeligIsJaded

            Mark, you seem angry.
            Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not a member of any camp.
            Nor am I anti-choice.

            The ‘camp’ thing is a bit weird my good man. We’re not playing ‘army’.

            “(And aren’t you the very clever person, hiding that incredibly complex question that would bring down the whole pro-choice campaign until you saw your opening, you tactician you!)”

            These are incredibly complex questions – and I think, in general, those outside the extreme on either side of this debate, are suspicious of anyone who doesn’t see them as such

          10. Mark Dennehy

            ZeligIsJaded, you seem perturbed. We will pray for your mental stability to return as soon as possible. Or, y’know, prescribe lithium. Whichever works.

            Oh, and for the dumb amongst us, how does “a very complex question” (which the pro-choice campaign has been saying this is for years) get addressed by suspiciously well-funded placards and banners with graphic (and usually false and copyright-infringing and manipulated) images, and pithy but meaningless slogans like those we saw outside Leinster House last night or over the M50 yesterday?

            If this is a complex question, let’s see complex responses – well-researched arguments whose backing data is scientific in nature, peer-reviewed and confirmed; debate that doesn’t focus on social kudos or losing face and where logical fallacies are treated like public defecation at a child’s playground.

            But the anti-Choice camp (and it is a camp, you can wish otherwise but as they say, wish in one hand, crap in the other and tell me which fills up first) do not want complex or nuanced arguments. They want to stand around medical clinics to torment the vulnerable, or to dictate to others how they can live their lives and what their doctor’s not allowed talk to them about.

  13. Satchel D

    I find these comments here either to be incredibly naive or just extreme cynicism. Clare Daly’s bill was very good opposition politics and I admire her commitment to legislating for X. But, either no one here follows/understands Dail proceedings or you want to actively mislead people. Every Wednesday, the Opposition tables either a Bil or a motion that the Gov opposes. Every week. Even when the Opposition agrees with a Gov piece of legislation they will also vote against it. That is the adversarial nature of the Dail. It has always been so. People here should be proud of the great campaign and protests lately and the Clare Daly Bill was part of that – BUT the immature slagging off a party that will actually deliver on X is just counter productive. The Labour Party has been a lone voice on legislating for X for over 20 years. It was the only party to campaign for X at the last Election. The realpolitick here is that FG has to come on board. Its not enough to campaign and publish legislation – it has to get on the statute books to have any effect. The only way to do that is to get a majority vote through the Dail – and the Labour Party getting FG to support them is the only way this can happen. I would quit the ill considered usual slagging off of the only mainstream left party and concentrate on contacting FG TDs to get them to support Labour. That is the only way to achieve this. Posting a list of TDs that voted against the Bill is just simplistic nonsence – you have to target the people who are the problem and who can actually get this Bill through the Dail. And the fact is a Private Members Bill such as Daly’s would have been subject to so many pro-life challenges in the Courts it would be delayed for years. It has to be a Gov/Attorney Gen Bill and that’s the truth of it.

    1. Bangalore

      “Every week. Even when the Opposition agrees with a Gov piece of legislation they will also vote against it. ”

      Sorry but this right here is unacceptable and we shouldnt put up with it. We should not just sit back and go ‘sure thats how it works’. Politicians need to vote based on whats best for the country, not what is most likely to get them a ministerial pension.

      We need to hammer this into their selfish, thick, cowardly heads. Vote for whats right, end of story

      1. Thecitizen

        One good comment ruined by a repeat of all above it. Oh dear.

        Try and imagine what would happen if everyone wrote their own bill and there were 166 different opinions being argued. As much would get accomplished as on this website.

        Argument for getting rid of at least 80 back benchers? Definitely.

        Argument for willy nilly legislation passed by independents? No thanks.

        Also some people above might want to read up on the practice of pairing in Dail votes. I’m sure they’ll enjoy being horrified at the cross party collusion.

  14. nbluebell

    When did the government care about human rights when there is Rome/church hanging over them like a rotten fruit? this vote is a math based on so-called “core vote” of electorate of 40y.o. +, who grew up in oppressive state and were OK with clerical and domestic child abuse (so much for “pro-life” declarations).
    It would take 10 concurrent Irish (!) women’s deaths to make a shift.

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