Best Vigil Ever

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Protestors including (above) Senator Ronan Mullen (left), Tyrone GAA manager Mickey Harte and Aoife Brauders of Youth Defence at tyhe Pro-Life vigil in Merrion Square, Dublin.

And earlier:

(Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland)

163 thoughts on “Best Vigil Ever

    1. ABM

      A great afternoon out. Lots of hot girls too! The pig ugly, anti-life, motley lot who showed up for their “counter demonstration” looked like a right miserable bunch.

        1. Arbs

          It won’t be “hot girls” though which excite ABM, the sad, misguided, febrile ideologue that he is.

      1. Arbs

        Guffaw! ABM – “lots of hot girls”! Oh Please, the lady doth protest too much! Remember my quip to you that you appear to have quite the interest in the “sin” but not the “sinner”. Be it your frenzied bloodied underpants comment, the “I know for a fact that this is the reality of gay sex”, to your apology, “I was referring to unlubricated, unprotected gay (sic. anal) sex”, your anal fixation is there for all to see. Didn’t you tell me recently to go off and do unspeakable things to myself. Your detail and obsession in relation to men who have sex with men is extremely telling. How very pro-life of you. ABM, your totally unhinged and I dare say that hot girls as well as the hot boys – well any sentient rational beings – give you a wide berth. Oh diddums. Once again though, thank you for the mirth but for the sort yourself out you wretched sod or else you’ll remain in the lumpen, dregs of society forever.

      2. HA

        And the fact that you’re commenting on this at 6.46 means your moves must have really gone down a treat with those “hot girls”! No not getting an abortion for you!

    2. IRL

      My other half is pregnant. We didn’t plan for this, we are both in our early twenties. We both have jobs, thankfully but they don’t pay well and we don’t live together. I don’t have any family left in Ireland and she is from Finland. Her mom died of cancer recently.
      If we have this baby we can’t provide for it or give it a proper home. Neither of us likes the idea of abortion and we can’t afford the trip to England, but the only other option is that she gives birth and we put our baby up for adoption

      1. jean

        If this post is genuine…I’m really sorry to hear you’re having a crisis pregnancy, I know it’s very scary and difficult. Have you looked for advice? The Irish Family Planning Association are really good people: http://www.ifpa.ie/

      2. Joe buckley

        if the post is 100/% remember Steve Jobs was born in exactly the same circumastances and was adopted. its safe to say he changed the world. – give life a chance

        1. lorcan nagle

          Adoption is not a solution for an unwanted or crisis pregnancy. The mother still has to go through pregnancy and labour, two of the most gruelling experiences a woman can ever go through, especially if complications ensue.

          1. IRL

            My apologies to everyone, my post wasn’t genuine, but its a story that is familiar to all of us isn’t it? Fatrabbit enjoy your reality TV shows. Jean I admire you for being a good person. Lorcan nagle thanks for helping me prove my point. If a couple have an unwanted pregnancy the options are: abortion or adoption. If adoption is the answer the woman still has to go through the pain of birth. And then who is going to adopt the unwanted child, any of you?

            Another year of 5000 Irish women getting on the ferry

          2. Leela2011

            cruel way to do it @IRL but it does prove that most people would choose the best option for the child and don’t make abortion decisions lightly. most of us know someone confronted by these decisions and support is paramount

          3. MrsS

            I am adopted – a lifetime of never feeling I quite belong….. abortion would have been better (but the world is stuck with me now)!

        1. Lolo

          Paid for all of those professionally printed placards & banners….. must have cost a pretty penny considering the amount of them.
          I don’t remember seeing any at the pro-choice march.

        2. Sidewinder

          Well I picked up the cardboard for the signs from a londis this morning but to be fair I don’t know who paid for the markers.

      1. Pedanto

        The RTE branding people will be so pleased they got the logo right. It has the fada and everything.

    1. Stephen

      He was there, but at the back. They didn’t let him in, or anyone that didn’t have one of their pre-approved signs.

    1. osi

      They have just as much right to march as anyone else campaigning for anything else. Debate their beliefs and opinions, don’t belittle them

      1. Leela2011

        I agree with you that it’s their right to protest and be 100% pro-life. I have issue with Youth Defence being involved though and kind of feel sorry for people who have gone to this no knowing anything about them

        1. SC

          Same here. I know plenty of great people who would not be for abortion. My issue is with the brain washing and underhand tactics of Youth Defense.

  1. Paul Moloney

    No expense has been spared: jumbotrons, thousands of colour placards, specially printed hoodies, stage rental and so on.

    Can the Government remind the Catholic Church about this the next time they claim they have no money to compensate those raped by priests, even after taxpayers stumped up most of the cash?

    P.

    1. well

      The signs all seem to be clustered at the front, if you check the photo they posted of the protest from above it seems their designed to block your view of the bulk the protest which as usual is mostly oaps

      1. Rob

        Why would they want to hide the fact that there are a lot of OAPs at the rally? Does their opinion count less or what?

        1. well

          They’re trying to create an image that the represent a broad spectrum of Irish society, that lots of young secular people support them.

          Because when people see who they really are, crucifix wielding control freaks it puts them off.

          1. Leela2011

            I think Pro-Life Campaign tends to attract more reasonable pro-life people, who aren’t into flashing bloodied-foetus pics. Very disappointing to see them hook up with the YD crowd

          2. well

            That does seem to be true PLC seem to be the more calm of the bunch , i believe them and YD have had spats in the past.

  2. Carolus Duran

    Among the loonies and those with extreme views are surely those who quite validly are posed with a moral dilema when confronted with knowingly terminating life . I’m not anti-abortion but I do think it is just a little convenient and disengenuous to ignore this fact (abortion = the termination of a potential life) and to accuse anyone who raises any question or objection on the subject to be a rabid woman hater.

      1. SiriusBrowne

        If you dont have sex the life isnt created in the first place…..where you sick that day in biology class?

          1. Critical Thinking

            “well” you appear to give support to the pro-life crowd there but your nonsensical ramblings just hurt yourself really.

          2. well

            how so? im not denying a bunch of cells are alive.

            Im arguing from the point of bodily autonomy.

            Of course i understand it is in your interest to declare yourself the winner of this argument.

    1. osi

      I completely agree – there seems to be two extremes to this debate. Those that believe that abortion under any circumstances whatsoever is wrong, and those that believe it should be available for all and those that don’t agree are ‘against women’. I’m sure there are people standing in the middle ground for both sides. Those that don’t believe in abortion on demand, but see the necessity of it certain cases, and those that are for it, but can calmly understand the other half’s view. Unfortunately it is the extremists that are being heard, and I’m sure it’s hurtful to people on both sides being labelled either murderers or bible-bashers.

      1. Ella

        I keep hearing the term ‘abortion on demand’ being thrown around, and I wish it weren’t, because I think it makes it too easy for those who feel there ought to be a ‘middle ground’ somewhere between YD and the pro-choice position, but aren’t willing to put together a rigorous position.

        In my opinion saying a woman should have the right to an abortion but only if the circumstances that resulted in her needing the abortion meet your personal criteria of moral behaviour is not a reasonable, middle-ground position.

        Nothing else changes in the “abortion on “demand”” argument. The woman still wants the abortion. The fetus is still biologically the same. The only thing that’s different is the ambiguous and subjective morality of whether you feel the woman deserves to be let have an abortion.

        Don’t lie to yourself that the strawman of “abortion on demand” can transform your position into the cool-headed middleground. It’s still an argument against the belief in a pregnant woman’s right to bodily autonomy.

  3. Orieldude

    Hopefully the numbers attending are accurately reported, as my ability to judge the competing claims of a woman’s right to choose and an unborn’s right to life depends entirely on which pressure group has the most marchers.

  4. cousinjack

    The counter weight to the knowledge economy expressing its democratic right.
    Where were they when their priest were raping the children and the brothers beating them to death?
    Catholicism has nothing do do with the teachings of Jesus Christ

    1. well

      Thats what really irks me the most about them, referendum after referendum has show that their views are the minority, and their group is only getting smaller.

      But they think if they throw money at they can circumvent democracy by trying to intimidate our politicians.

      1. SiriusBrowne

        You are unbelievably out of touch. Referendum after referendum and poll after poll show that a majority of the country is pro-life. If it was an extreme minority as the prochoice side continuously attempt to claim then it would have been legalised easily long ago.

        Please by all means argue for abortion if you believe in it and argue intelligently but stop being disingenuous by continually asserting that prolife is some kind of extremist religious minority this is simply not true.

        1. cjones

          Sirrus, most recent poll results below (red c)

          “29% of voters believed that there should be a constitutional amendment to allow abortion “in any case where the woman requests it”. 35% supported legislating for the X case allowing for abortions where the life of the mother is at risk, including from suicide. 26% supported legislating for the X case but excluding suicide and 8% believed no legislation at all was necessary.”

        2. David Roe

          That’s a bit of a generalisation. Yes, a majority are pro life. The supreme court ruled that constitution allowed the X case. Twice, the people have upheld that view. The government must legislate for X, It has no choice if it is to accept the will of the people. Are you suggesting that legislating for X is anti-democratic?

      2. Jimbo

        Given that a massive percentage of people didn’t bother their arses to vote in the childrens referendum I’d say that the anti-choice bible thumpers don’t hold the monopoly on not worrying about childrens care either. There are probably a fair few pro-choicers in there as well?

  5. Zaccone

    Why do men even bother protesting in these things? Maybe this is my caffé late liberalism shining through but I dont see why they should have any say in the matter, its an issue that will never directly affect their bodies.

    (and this coming from a male who rather dislikes aggressive feminism – the above still just strikes me as odd).

    1. Leela2011

      I think it’s good for men to get involved in the debate on either side as it will affect their families too (except priests of course!)

      1. David

        Jimbo, a single person may one day get married. A man can never get pregnant. Bloody stupid comparison.

    2. Pedanto

      If you think that’s liberalism you’re expressing, you need to put the cup down and open a book or two.

    3. jean

      The partners of the women who had to travel to the UK to get terminations because of fatal fetal abnormalities have a pretty strong reason to be interested in abortion rights. As does Savita’s husband, not to mention her father and brothers. Many men who have women in their lives (partners, sisters, daughters, friends) care about their rights and health. Plus frequently people support causes even if they don’t affect them. It’s empathy and we’d all be screwed without it.

  6. SiriusBrowne

    The last prolife rally was belittled here for having so few attendees. This vigil had over 25000 people according to the gardai. Will the prochoice side now please concede that there is tremendous public support for maintaining Ireland’s ban on abortion.

    Continuously the prolife side is protrayed as being some kind of extremist catholic fringe. It is not. The majority of the country is prolife. Referenda and polls show this. Please stop lying about the prolife movement.

    I will happily discuss and debate abortion with anyone and the prochoice side are of course completely entitled to their opinion. However, it is disingenuous to suggest that is a minority or the church stopping progress. It is the mainstream of Irish society.

    Those expressing their opinions in the media and on social media tend to come from a middle class urban/suburban liberal background. This creates the mistaken impression that the vast majority of the population is in favour of legalising abortion. Polls referenda and these kinds of rallies and vigils are important because they demonstrate to use what large sections of the population believe actually believe.

    I welcome open intelligent debate and abhor the tactics of YD as well as the extreme sections of the prochoice movement. But please please be mature and stop deriding prolife as if they are religious loonies and a minority because it simply is not true.

    1. Don Weasley

      “The majority of the country is prolife. Referenda and polls show this”
      Citation to valid polls?

      1. SiriusBrowne

        If the majority of the country was prochoice then we would have a prochoice taoiseach and abortion legislation would have been introduced years ago without any problem.

        Last referendum in 2002 was narrowly lost. This shows that almost the majority wanted the ammendment that would provide for abortion to save the life of the mother removing the condition of suicide (church was on this side). Add that to the extreme fringe of dana supporters who thought even that was too much and you have a majority.
        This is middle ireland, listen to them.

        The ivana baciks of this world who want abortion on demand are the minority. I dont know how I can be clearer than that. Perhaps you need to step outside your sheltered south county dublin liberal paradise and reconnect with the rest of the country.

    2. Rebecca

      But two referenda have actually affirmed a woman’s right to choose (albeit in very limited circumstances)?

      1. SiriusBrowne

        The prochoice side have used savitas ddeath to demand x case legislation (which has nothing to do with savita). Xcase=abortion on demand.

    3. dover

      What a load of nonsense. 25,000 whackjobs out of 3 million does not equate to ‘tremendous public support’.

      How about you and your ilk let the rest of us civilised people take this nation out of the Dark Ages and away from the empty rhetoric of a morally bereft religion?

      You had your moment in the sun. Now keep your mouths shut and disappear off into the sunset like you should have done years ago. The sooner this country is rid of crazy religious people the better.

        1. well

          The gardai were saying 25,000 as well though, free buses, ipads and a chance to get a days shopping done in the big smoke seem to have mobilized the entire prolife minority.

      1. Blobster

        Do you hear yourself Dover? You come across as a foaming-at-the-mouth bigot. Anyone who claims that his side represents the totality of “civilised people” is to be distrusted.

          1. SiriusBrowne

            I have neither the time nor the inclination to read some “essay” that you put in front of me. I am not YD, I never said I was and I have never defended them. I abhor their tactics.

            But you didnt know that did you. Instead you decided to conjure up some wild prejudice of me and what I stand for because that being out of touch with mainstream society as you are, you believe that ANYONE who is prolife is a right wing catholic nutcase.

            This shows how ignorant, out of touch and prejudiced you are. I am what the majority of this country is, a moderate, well educated, progressive person who believes abortion is wrong. Abortion is the taking of a human life- FACT end of.
            I PERSONALLY believe that the only way you can justify this is to save a womans life directly. In the case of suicide – the abortion does not remove suicidal tendencies and therefore it is not a valid reason. Ectopic pregnancies and cervical cancer are examples of valid reasons. This is the status quo in our country.

            I have now made my position clear- DO NOT judge me put words in my mouth or make ignorant assumptions about who I am or what I stand for.

            You are a petty silly individual who rather than actually contributing to ANY of these conversations resorts to insulting and abusing prolife commentators. This makes you a pathetic individual who is no better than YD. Grow up.

    4. Leela2011

      Sirius, I don’t appreciate the aggressive minority of Pro-Choice people just as I don’t agree with the extreme view of YD, who are also a vocal minority. However, I think you’ll find that the majority of people occupy the middle ground and have respect for both sides – i.e. they would like legisation to protect the mother where her life is in danger, allow termination of pregnancy where baby’s life is not viable outside of womb and do not want abortion on demand. The one contentious issue with that of course is the suicide issue. Personally I trust in women’s choice and every effort should be made to disuade women from abortion and ensure education and contraception is available to all girls

      1. SiriusBrowne

        Really good point, thanks for the constructive comment. I agree with you actually. I believe that abortion can only be justified to save the life of the mother. This is what I mean by the majority of the country being prolife. Abortion on demand is a minority opinion.
        The problem is that legislating for the x-case who bring in de facto abortion on demand. This is why these people are marching. X case legislation means that any woman who claims to be suicidal must be given an abortion under any circumstances even partial-birth/late term abortions.
        This would be an awful event in my view and this is what we need to try and prevent from happening.

        1. Leela2011

          I take your point Sirius – I am personally in favour of suicide being included but with the correct wording etc. e.g.: appropriate procedures for different stages of pregnancy. Of course alot of people won’t trust in that system but if the correct procedures are in place, I think that abortion in those circumstances could really be minimised to a tiny minority – we have to trust in medical profession to work with the guidelines and legislation etc. Yes, there’s only a small minority who would like to see terminations above 12weeks. it’s a difficult area but I think most people really don’t know how to articulate their views and just descend into sniping and name-calling

      2. Ella

        This is going to come across sounding more aggressive than I want it to, because Internet. But I don’t completely follow your logic.

        If you trust women’s choices as you say you do, then why is there any legislative need to check that her reasons for her choice match your criteria?

        1. Leela2011

          Think I get what you mean Ella – I suppose ‘Choice’ doesn’t come into the legislation as it’s for medical reasons and a suicidal woman doesn’t actually have a choice – fair point. haven’t fully thought that out, am sure there are holes. such a grey area, we’re all going to have different views on it I’m afraid

  7. Nollaig

    I wonder how many of the 25,000 have in their circle of family and friends someone who has travelled the lonely road to the UK for an abortion.

    1. ABM

      We all do. We’ve all heard about young so and so who’s “gone off to London for a weekend away with her best friend”.

      1. deliverusfromevil

        Women have always had abortions, the question is are we going to grow-up as a nation and accept our responsibilities or continue to live in nineteen-hundred-and-deValera?

  8. AbortionLover69

    Wouldn’t handing out condoms and campaigning for contraception be more effective than spending money on iPad give-aways and thousands of coloured posters? Or is every sperm considered a potential life? Is wanking the loss of a potential life?

    1. deliverusfromevil

      All of the above. Remember, somebody’s god is watching you and you are going to somebody’s hell, so make it a good wank.

    2. Ella

      Only if you’re in it to help people. If what you’re looking for is the heady thrill of being judgmental, shaming people, and exercising your power to control others through lies and fear while revelling in the superior feeling of righteous indignation? Then helping people to help themselves doesn’t have any of the right payoff.

  9. ABM

    The “counter protest” consisted of around 100 people, mostly comprised of pig ugly feminists (they always are) and their pathetic beta male white knight orbiters dying for a sniff (they have been rejected by the motherly, potential-wife-material females and instead must resort to going after spiky-haired feminists who use their knobs as a masturbation device).

    I witnessed one female student type who was covered up like a black-blok protester and had a sign with “my c*unt my choice” badly written on it. God bless her. Many of the hip and cool, “with-it”, “right-on”, young men had their head stucks in their iphones looking for +1s for their anti-life views. They were particularly fond of seeking out photographs of old people praying having no problem interrupting them mid-prayer and asking them to pose so they can get a photo for their facebook page.

      1. ABM

        Very irresponsible post.

        Are you advocating that women take this extremely dangerous drug? Are you a qualified doctor and/or pharmacist? Cervical ripening and induction agents can cause uterine hyperstimulation, which can negatively affect the blood supply to the fetus and increases the risk of complications such as uterine rupture. Uterine rupture can kill you.

        I’ve a funny feeling we’ll be hearing a lot more about these drugs in the near future… *nod/wink*

          1. SiriusBrowne

            While I am not condoning ABMs initial post – Sido, it is truely truely disgusting and dangerous to promote that. I would ask that make a comment to distance yourself from that or warn of the dangers of attempting to self-administer an abortion. Really a new low from you.

    1. cousinjack

      I’m prochoice and I get plenty of pussy

      I expect you and your Iona Institute mates are pissed that you can’t join the brothers and rape kids under the cloak of catholicism anymore

    2. lorcan nagle

      The way that you go after the pro choice people over appearance and alleged motive says a hell of a lot more about you than it does us.

      Regardless of what you think of our opinions, we stood there with our signs and that was all – no chants, no insults. We respected your choice to get on the streets for what you believe in.

      Meanwhile people on your side, and possibly you yourself attemtped to intimidate and cajole – dancing up to the cordon waving posters, and in one case shouting “do you not know you’re wrong?!” until the Gardai dragged them off or took their posters away.

      Ultimately the pro-life side will fail because your side works to intimidate. And the country is sick to death of agression. TDs are speaking out about the horrible threats they get in letters sent in by Youth Defence members. All the money in the world won’t help when you continue to scream and shout.

      1. ABM

        Ugliness is not an exclusive function of physical looks. Any woman who wishes to kill her own flesh and blood has a pretty ugly outlook on life.

        And no, I wasn’t “intimidating” or “cajoling” anyone yesterday. I ask that you withdraw that accusation.

        1. lorcan nagle

          “The “counter protest” consisted of around 100 people, mostly comprised of pig ugly feminists (they always are) ”

          Your statement was clearly a comment of your perception of their looks. And it was clearly an insult, and a thinly veiled comment that feminists are ugly.

          Also, I have no proof that you weren’t one of the people who attempted to intimidate the conter-protest. If you’re so thin-skinned that you can’t take the suggestion that you did something horrible in real-life (and even if you didn’t do it, your compatriots certainly did), then I suggest you decline from comenting on-line, as there are many people more horrible than me.

          I’m more than willing to discuss our ideological differences, but I’d far prefer to do it in a reasonable and friendly manner.

  10. fill3rup

    Free buses,iPads and get a bit of shopping in and they only got 25,000?? That’s pretty shite tbh..

  11. Critical Thinking

    This whole debate has descended to such a completely low and frankly stupid level it’s ridiculous.

    Arghh the Catholic Church, Arghh Youth Defence, Arghh Women, Arghh Men, Arghh homosexuals, Arghh transgendered people, Arghh straight people, Arggh Martians, Arghh labour, Arghh Fine Gael, Arghh Americans, Arghh a nation of people so up their own holes they can’t fu*king think constructively about anything any more.

    For the love of teabags will everybody get off the drugs or local water or too much television or violent video games or mobile phones or whatever the fu*k has made the Irish such an increasingly retched population of fools.

    1. deliverusfromevil

      Dude- we’re a nation of civil servants, the important thing is not to think, a hundred decades of the rosary will take the edge off it for you.

      1. Critical Thinking

        If it was not for the civil servants maintaining the instruments of state in spite of democratically elected corrupt incompetent government after democratically elected corrupt incompetent government Ireland likely wouldn’t exist as a nation at this stage. One should learn about the opinions you repeat from the papers before repeating them.

        Frankly you’re just proving my point and I am not typing any more.

        1. Oldmanfitz

          If they had any backbone and walked out on the “democratically elected corrupt incompetent government” they would paralyse the system and force change.

          But then we would have to admit that we elected the wrong people in the first place. And we dont like doing that.

    2. Sido

      @ Critical Thinking
      I suppose that before the abortion debate you could describe me as being lazily pro-choice.
      That’s to say – I accepted that most people could get an abortion in the UK if they wanted one.

      And oddly, by the same token, you could probably describe Enda Kenny as being lazily pro-life.

      The game changer is Savita. Who, because of medical negligence, died when enough of her had turned septic. That’s a real person – A real life . Not some photo shopped embryo, on a poster, with a smart arsed slogan underneath.

      And I really don’t want that to happen to anyone again . I don’t want to be ashamed of the country I live in. And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable ask.

      My problem with the pro-life movement is that they consider my feelings as unreasonable.
      They clearly aren’t . They are absolutists . As a consequence I have no choice in challenging their flawed reasoning.

      1. Critical Thinking

        We have Pro-Life, Pro-Choice and Pro Abortion under certain well defined circumstances(Such as medical requirement and rape). I suspect that the majority of the state is for the latter.
        The problem is that all anybody is talking about is the former two because it takes too much time and too many words for the latter to be used on twitter.

        The debate is an hysterical mess. I very much look forward to the outcome of the HIQA enquiry regarding Savita. I think her death stinks of something more malevolent than negligence to be honest.

      2. Jimbo

        We don’t know if Savita died because of medical negligence or maybe you know something that no-one else seems to be aware of?

        1. Critical Thinking

          @Jimbo which is why there is an enquiry in the first place. It would seem most likely that law was followed to the letter.

          1. Jimbo

            A woman in pregnancy died and a journalist ran with the story before any facts were established. Do we know that an abortion would have saved her life? If not then it was a cynical attempt to suggest that it was antiquated abortion laws that caused her death. ‘Seeming most likely’ means nothing until the facts are established.

          2. Sido

            @ Critical Thinking – Yes the debate has become messy, dirty and stupid.

            The problem appears to be the absolutist nature of the “Pro-Life” movment.
            They do not accept that there are grey areas in the argument.
            In actual fact the problem is littered with grey areas.
            It makes sense for them as a tactic to drive arguments to hysterical levels.

        2. Sido

          We can reasonably deduce that there was medical negligence. Inasmuch as she should not have died. I’m not blaming anyone here, apparently the law is blurred,

          We have heard various racist slurs directed at the husband Praveen, along with suggestions that he’s after building up a case for compo,

          If someone goes into hospital in a healthy condition and comes out in a coffin – then clearly the hospital has failed.

          1. Jimbo

            But thats just it, she wasn’t healthy going in. There was something badly wrong with her as a result of her pregnancy, which should have been terminated. However, we do not know that the termination would have saved her.

            But anyone who holds that view is labled as a rosary bead wielding nut.

          2. Sido

            Yes, you a right Jimbo. I phrased that badly. Sorry.
            However hospitals aren’t meant to kill people.
            We have heard from her husband that this is what happened.
            You can argue that Praveen is not a Doctor.
            We also know that some Doctors in this country are liars..
            In the end it behooves us to weigh up the evidence for ourselves.

          3. Critical Thinking

            I am back. As I heard/interpreted the gossip/hysterics/politicising the unborn child/foetus still had a heart beat and as a result of that Savita was not given the abortion which may have saved her life.
            She was not given the abortion because the doctors would have been breaking the law as they said/believed that Savita was going to survive and the doctors would have been liable if they had aborted the child/foetus.
            That is where my opinion is founded.

          4. Parp

            The problem appears to be the absolutist nature of the “Pro-Choice” movment.
            They do not accept that there are grey areas in the argument.
            In actual fact the problem is littered with grey areas.
            It makes sense for them as a tactic to drive arguments to hysterical levels.

      3. ABM

        I didnt know you were Kitty Holland. Welcome. We will all read your spleen on Monday in the paper of broken record (I mean the guardian.ie).

    1. Leela2011

      Horrifying :( if that happened to a girl in Ireland, how can we as a society allow her to be shipped off to Britain and not be taken care of in her own country

      1. ABM

        Anyone who procures an abortion is latae sententiae exocmmunicated. No big secret there. And besides, what do anti-catholics care whether you’re excommunicated or not?

        1. Leela2011

          @ABM it’s the attitude of the Archbishop that’s disgusting and perhaps the excommunication would really have upset the family as being Catholic is part of their everyday lives. It’s disgusting because it appears that this child was not physically able to give birth. I could not let this happen to any child in my family

    2. Sido

      That’s a truly disgusting article. I never understood the twisted thinking of the nuts before but that article explained it “Abortion is much more serious than killing an adult. An adult may or may not be an innocent, but an unborn child is most definitely innocent.

      1. Sido

        Errm No – One story involves the rape of a nine year old girl and her subsequent persecution by the catholic church.
        The other is a “National Health story” of a botched operation. Distressing yes but these things happen.

        The Brazilian story is stratospherically grotesque. The UK one is unfortunate.
        Does that answer your question?

        1. Jimbo

          No it does not. One is the musings and enforcement of church rules on an brutalised woman and the other is anything but unfortunate.

          In the Brazilian case, a young womans rape is further compounded by excommunication from their church which may be something that could be the difference between life and death in their community. It is scandalous beyond belief that her punishment is made worse by the church.

          The other one is the deliberate destruction, by a savage method, of a very sick baby. Remember at this point we are no longer talking about a zygote, bunch of cells foetus etc., but a baby that should in normal circumstances survive. The fact that the wrong one was ‘got’ is to me sickening in the extreme. Worse, was the rush to deal with the sick child. If this is what we mean by abortion rights then I face a serious dilemma if we have a referendum.

          1. Sido

            It’s not a baby it’s a fetus Jimbo.
            You should go back and read the article.
            Without the benefit of larger or whatever else it is you are on.

          2. Jimbo

            If it was going to survive before the ‘doctor’ drilled a hole in it’s head before sucking out it’s brains then it is nothing other than a baby. At 32 weeks it would most surely have survived and sticking a label on it to suit the agenda is wrong. While I am anything but a bible thumper and I do support the right to abortion in certain circumstances, I could never agree to a regime which allowed this sort of barbarity to be carried out in the name of medicine.

  12. ronan

    *yawn* – its over: they lost. “middle ireland” me-hole… troglodytes & hobbits being manipulated by shadowy men in cloaks & croziers fueled with hate laden dollar$ from across the ocean.

      1. droid

        Try the app yourself, its free. or stick to the ever reliable YD estimates – they always tell the truth.

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