Reasonable Force For Reasonable People

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TomClonan

From top: Protests in Sligo on Monday night; outside the Mansion House on Saturday; and Tom Clonan 

 

Dramatically-haired security analyst Tom Clonan went on RTÉ Radio One’s Today with Sean O’Rourke presented by Keelin Shanley this morning to discuss the Irish Water protests with an emphasis on the conduct of some of the protesters and the response by the Gardai.

Keelin Shanley: “You’re very welcome back to the programme. Now over the last few days anti-water protests have turned from peaceful demonstrations into much more tense, violent, even dangerous encounters between politicians, protestors and Gardai. I’m joined now by security analyst Tom Clonan. Tom, thank you for coming into us this morning. You are, you’ve a background in this area, you’ve done training in this area, you’ve been analysing hours of footage on YouTube as to what has been happening. What is your take on how it has been managed so far?”

Tom Clonan: “Well, just so the listeners know, as an army officer, as a captain in the defence forces prior to the ceasefires, we provided aid to the civil powers, of support to An Garda Siochana. So we did what we called riot control or public order training exactly the same as An Garda Siochana, because when we were in the same place, whether it be a prison riot, like say in Portlaoise for example, or whether we were supporting the guards in extradition cases, which were very, very nasty, very confrontational, we had exactly the same reference points as our colleagues in An Gardai with regard to the use of force, justification and minimum force. So I‘ve been watching the water protests with great interest and particularly after the event at the weekend, where I have to say Ministers of Cabinet have been using language which is very, very inappropriate, they have been using hyperbole to describe what have been relatively minor although unacceptable incidents but they need to be clear…”

Shanley: “What do you mean, Tom?”

Clonan: “I saw the footage, what had happened to Minister Burton and I saw the pictures of, you know, water balloons hitting her head, and, you know that’s absolutely unacceptable, Paul Murphy and others who are involved in those protests, they need to make sure they are properly stewarded and conducted responsibly, and in fairness to Minister Burton…”

Shanley: “Paul Murphy would say he didn’t…”

Clonan: “I understand that, but he was there with a megaphone. Please use it. But anyway, but the government response has been, you know, one of a confrontational, adversarial use of language, they constantly use the term ‘sinister elements’ to refer to protestors who are out on the streets. There were 150,000 out on the streets, we’ll probably have similar numbers, in fact we’ll probably have more than that on the 10th December, when I heard Brendan Howlin say this morning that we could be proud of Irish Water, they’re really missing the point there, you know, people are angry…”

Shanley: “But it remains to be seen, Tom, we haven’t heard the full proposals yet..”

Clonan: “They may try to arrange the deckchairs on the deck of the Titanic but people aren’t, the government are correct when they say people aren’t necessarily protesting against water, but the installation of water meters gives people the opportunity to protest…”

Shanley: “Let’s get back to the security. If you talk about a violent confrontation or if you find yourself in a position where there is, you know, public disorder or unrest or riot or whatever you going to call it, what are the basic requirements, the legal requirements, what are you going to do?”

Clonan: “Okay, there are four basic principles. I’ll give you a very quick master class if you will and people can then look at images and decide what they are looking at. The rules are like the rules of rugby or the rules of Gaelic football, they’re very simple. First of all, in terms of legal requirements, and it’s a catch-all, guards have to be properly trained in public order, for example the riot platoon, they must have their updated training and they must have trained together for their performance as public order unit to be correct and cohesive and it is preferable if guards are from the same station, the same unit, that they know each other, and that they can, you know, if you like, operate cohesively, that it’s a team effort when you go out. The idea that you would respond reactively to a flashpoint and go to 4 or 5 garda stations in the DMR and say get your riot gear on and be at such and such a place, that really isn’t ideal. Now that isn’t the fault of An Garda Siochana, that’s something which flows from austerity and lack of investment and overtime and all of these things.”

Shanley: “We don’t have a great culture of having to deal with street protests”

Clonan: “Well the guards have been very successful, you know. If you look back at the 2004 accession ceremonies for EU member states, we had the riots in Lansdowne in 1995, we had the Love Ulster Riot in 2006. By European Union standards the guards are actually very good, they tend to have a good relationship with the public, we haven’t had deaths on the street inadvertently by way, by way of head injuries and other issues and these are things which happen quite commonly on the Continent so that the guards have a lot of experience in this regard but unfortunately they’ve been hollowed out through austerity and cuts in the last while… But other legal requirements would be you can’t improvise a weapon if someone picks up and throws a missile at you, you can’t turn around and pick it up and throw it back, that sort of thing, you can’t use unauthorised or improvised weapons, that’s the general requirement.”

Shanley: “So it’s defensive…”

Clonan: “So the Garda arresting must be on duty, must be rostered for duty, must have proper equipment and be properly trained and instructed in how to use it. So that’s that. The second thing is that all force must be to prevent, you know, a threat to life or injury or damage to public property or public order or what have you. It cannot be punitive. So for instance if I throw a bottle of water at Enda Kenny and guard sees me he can’t come up then and hit me with baton and say don’t do that again because that’s punitive, it’s not preventative.

Shanley: “We’re talking about the use of force as opposed to arrest?”

Clonan: “Yes. The other issue is justification. There must be a reason to use force. You can’t use force to make a statement or to go in on a protestor. There must be an objective defensible reason for using force and that is, you know, your own life, the life of others a threat of injury to yourself or others, to prevent oneself being forcibly disarmed, and I read it in Independent Newspapers that a security source close to government said they were considering arming guards to have firearms and that is against a basic principle of public order, you do not mix firearms with public order, that is a basic, I mean, whoever said that is reckless and irresponsible…”

Shanley: “They were talking about giving people firearms to protect ministers, not a public order situation.”

Clonan: “Yeah, but you must not put firearms into a situation in which a public order incident is likely it is the wrong thing to do because what you are doing is putting the person with the firearm at risk, because how do they prevent themselves from being forcibly disarmed, they must shoot, so it is an immediate and sinister escalation. And here’s the most important one, levels of force and this is the last principle. The first one is unarmed restraint by weight of numbers so, you know, guards may link arms move forward brace against protestors, push, make them move back. If somebody is perpetrating an assault, then 2-3 Gardai can get them into a hold position a ‘come along’ hold or so on, but you’re not permitted to kick and punch, throwing someone round like a rag doll and bash them into street furniture, that is not consistent with the use of minimum force. The next level of force, if unarmed restraint by weight of numbers is not sufficient, then you can resort to the use of batons or pepper spray or other non-lethal weapons, but there must be an objective justifiable reason for that.
Now in the riot platoon and the riot company there’s what known as a Platoon diarist who films everything keeps a record of everything and you learn from that. An Garda Siochana do the same thing. What I’ve seen, Keelin, on the footage of the water protests the ones that spring up in Dublin and Cork and elsewhere is that guards are not there in sufficient numbers and the behaviour of some of the protestors is very, very provocative, I mean, they’re going right up to members of an An Garda Siochana, men and women, they’re screaming in their faces, they’re using language, the ‘f’ word, the ‘c’ word, questioning the parentage of Gardai, I mean it is absolutely not a legitimate form of protest to do that, but if I could say this though, the Gardai should not be put into that position because the Gardai are there to serve the community and you talk to any of these Gardai in the front line, they do not want to be in open confrontation with members of the community but they’ve been put there to protect the installation of meters which we hear this morning no longer necessary…

Shanley: “To go back to the force you’ve been in these kind of situation when you’re a guard or an army officer in a riot situation, is there somebody in your ear as to when you can up the level of force or is it down to each individual guard?”

Clonan: Well when you wear a uniform you don’t have extra powers aside from other members of the public but you do have extra responsibilities. Each and every Garda is responsible for his or her actions but at leadership level the inspector or sergeant is responsible for everything that happens or that fails to happen. In a given situation around Leinster House or its environment, the complement of Gardai have a chain of command, they have prior notice under the law of protest and demonstrations so generally speaking they’re properly prepared, trained and fully briefed and have a plan.
Gardai who are out on housing estates who are called to be guardians of the peace, they’re vunerable, because what I’ve seen from the footage that’s on You-Tube, and there’s hours of it, they are not there in sufficient numbers they are being placed in an invidious position. If you look at where guards are involved in other areas, cash protection for banks or Garth Brooks concerts, contributions are made towards the costs of policing. Who’s paying the tax payer for what I would consider to be a waste of resources because the meters now, they are like e voting machines, they do not make any sense whatsoever…”

Shanley: “But people will still know how much water they’re using…”

Clonan: “In a broader security sense, Keelin, your previous contributors here, Gerry Howlin and others, only 30% of the people turned out in Dublin West by election to vote so Paul Murphy was elected by 1 in 10 of the people who live there, there is a serious disconnect between Leinster House and the general public and there’s huge anger out there and again I say to you the water meters. Enda Kenny is right when he says this isn’t about water but the water meters have given people a focal point and opportunity to get out there and protest and express their anger about everything that has happened to us in the past 10 years. Now if you think strategically and you use a bit of common sense, they should stop installing water meters now, take the heat out of it, allow people to march peacefully, and I would say to people listening to this, the Gardai are brothers and sisters in austerity, they’ve taken the same pay cuts as the rest of us they have to pay the charges and the USC and all of the other things to bail out banks, they deserve to be respected in their place of work which is our streets.
On the other hand, I would say to Garda management, have a look at the footage, because if I can see it they can see it there is a requirement for training and requirement for cool heads, because, you know, Keelin if someone falls over and hits their head, once there is blood on the street because you know if a guard gets hit on the head you have blood, then it goes out of control and we could have a very sad and sorry situation on our hands and the Government really need to stop using adversarial conduct and patronising language and commenting on mobile phones is not helpful.”

Shanley: “Thank you for that, you might point out that although Paul Murphy may have been at 1 and 10 it’s very much a democratic mandate he has.”

Clonan: “Yes, and, you know, I’ll be there in December but people need to behave responsibly and not just members of the public, our political leaders.”

Listen here 

Pics: Mirror, Niall Nelligan (DIT)

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85 thoughts on “Reasonable Force For Reasonable People

    1. Don Pidgeoni

      Yup

      “when you wear a uniform you don’t have extra powers aside from other members of the public but you do have extra responsibilities”

      Nail on the head

    1. Mé Féin

      No, they are sinister anti-democratic dissident Republican subversive crustie left-wing socialist-slash-communist Satanist divil worshippers. Haven’t you been following this at all?

  1. Custo

    Spot on, and good to hear a bit of balance on RTE.

    I think the one thing that’s clear to anyone who looks at even a couple of minutes of video from any of the protests is that the Gardai look totally outnumbered, totally disorganised and out of totally their depth.

    It’s a recipe for disaster, and one that was only very narrowly avoided by some fluke at the weekend.

  2. Soundings

    The Gardai who flung/hurled/pushed that wee woman out of Enda’s car’s path was not using minimum force certainly. He probably wasn’t using reasonable force given the number of Gardai present and the, er, size of the threat.

    1. Alfred E. Neumann

      I would guess that they just do not have the numbers to detain people, so they are choosing the less civilised option of lobbing them out of the way.

    2. realPolithicks

      The use of force is the the only thing most of these cops know, it’s how they have always behaved.

      1. Alfred E. Neumann

        D’oh.

        Nice find, though. Poor old Pasolini. Those same sons of the poor weren’t shy about beating him to death.

        1. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

          Same ones huh? Poor too huh?

          I think I detect a musty bang of snobbishness about you.

          1. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

            Yes Alfred.

            Here you go –
            …When yesterday at Valle Giulia you and
            the policemen were throwing blows,
            I symphatized with the policemen!
            Because policemen are sons of the poor,
            they come from urban or rural outskirts.

            […]

            They are twenty, your age, dear friends.
            We agree, of course, to be against the police institution,
            but try to fight against the Judges, and you’ll see
            what happens!
            The young policemen you were hitting, […]
            are from a different social class.
            At Valle Giulia, yesterday, there was a fragment
            of class struggle: you, my friends, (although
            in the right) were the rich,
            and the policemen (although in the wrong)
            were the poor…

            Care to explain?
            Those same sons of the poor weren’t shy about beating him to death.

          2. Alfred E. Neumann

            So when you say “Same ones huh? Poor too huh?”, what do you mean? Are you suggesting that the Italian police weren’t involved in Pasolini’s murder? Where’s the “snobbishness”?

          3. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

            Do you always answer a question with another question?

            There’s some controversy over who killed him.
            A rent boy was convicted.
            There’s no doubt the political establishment weren’t upset by his death.

            “Are you suggesting that the Italian police weren’t involved in Pasolini’s murder?”
            The police are involved in most murders Alfred.
            I would think similar to how the Gardaí were involved in Fr Molloy’s murder here, they were involved yes.

            Hope that’s answered all your questions now.

            Have you figured out what your position is on post-Schenkerian tonality yet btw?

          4. Alfred E. Neumann

            I genuinely don’t know what you mean about “snobbishness”. Are you really committed to not explaining it?

            I thought I was very clear about what I meant, but just in case: Pasolini’s poem rather beautifully points out that the front line of political activism is not a simple battle between working class insurgents and bourgeois repression. He finds some sympathy for the police, which I think is rather wonderful of him.

            The fact that he was murdered, soon after, by the same forces he strove to understand in such a human way – well, I find it sad. You seem to have some objection to that, but you won’t say what it is. What is that adding to anything? Quoting the previous post in italics really isn’t an answer.

          5. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

            The reason I found your comment – “those same sons of the poor weren’t shy about beating him to death.” -snobbish Alfred, is because there’s been no suggestion the police were involved, and because it wasn’t the same “poor” who killed him.

            As for me seeming to have an objection to any sympathies he had, just read the words in front of you.

            Let it go now Alfred. Go have a crumpet, you’ll feel better.

          6. Alfred E. Neumann

            No suggestion that the police killed him? I can’t believe you mean that. It’s been part of the common discourse of Italian politics since about fifteen seconds after he was kicked to death. Are you isagreeing with everybody who has ever discussed the facts of his murder? If so, could you maybe say why?

            As to “snobbishness””. Pasolini refers to the policemen as “sons of the poor”. I note the pathos of those same “sons of the poor” (ie. policemen) beating him to death. In what way is that snobbish? I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but it’s genuinely hard to see what you might mean.

          7. Alfred E. Neumann

            1. What do you think was snobbish?

            2. Are you asserting that the Italian police weren’t involved in his death?

            I don’t know why this is so hard to pin down, or why you got involved if you aren’t interested.

          8. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

            See above:

            1. “The reason I found your comment – “those same sons of the poor weren’t shy about beating him to death.” -snobbish Alfred, is because there’s been no suggestion the police were involved, and because it wasn’t the same “poor” who killed him. ”

            2. “There’s some controversy over who killed him.”
            Of all the people implicated, I haven’t read anything of the police being directly involved.

            Move on now.

          9. Alfred E. Neumann

            Did you even read the article you linked? There is almost no-one in Italy who DOESN’T believe that the police were complicit in Pasolini’s murder.

            Forgive me for suggesting it, but you seem to have alighted on this conversation with no knowledge whatever, and seized on a phrase you thought you might credibly object to. The predictable result is that you’ve painted yourself into a corner, and you’re now flailing about trying to unstick yourself. It’s not worth it.

            You could, of course, argue against the universally accepted narrative of the anni di piombi, in which case you’ll have to bring something more than incoherent snark to the table – or you could just back out with whatever grace you can muster, and maybe ask yourself why you got involved int he first place.

            And, not to change the subject, but Frilly Keane seems REALLY annoyed at your username.You’re making him/her look like a clown.

          10. The Lady Vanishes

            Alfred, I don’t think Frilly even noticed the user name. She was more concerned about you being silly enough to mix her up with someone with a different gravatar, in fairness.

            No baiting the girls, now.

          11. Alfred E. Neumann

            Well, thank you for your civility, Lady – but I hope never to follow Broadsheet so closely that I can automatically tell the difference between a tiny avatar of someone called Frilly with a figure in red in the centre and another tiny avatar of someone else called Frilyl with a figure in red in the centre.

            Wouldn’t it be easier for either or both Frillies to simply have a normal invective-free conversation, and maybe point out the confusion without the need for a Madonna-level shitfit?

          12. Frilly Alfred

            Alfred, I’d like to know (genuinely), in the hierarchy of shitfits, is a Madonna-level one above or below a Twink-level one?

          13. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

            Someone didn’t have any crumpets today it seems.

            ” in which case you’ll have to bring something more than incoherent snark to the table”
            Not very civil, and not very invective-free I’m afraid Alfred.

            And yes, I’ve read the article/s I linked to, and I’ve spoken to some Italian colleagues about the case.

            I’m a bit perplexed as to what you’ve gotten your knickers in a twist about here.
            Is it the snobbish bit? I’ve explained why I said it.
            I don’t think by any means that all Italians believe the police were directly responsible for this murder.

            I’ll forget the bit about having no knowledge of the case and me flailing about.
            We’ll put it down to a momentary lapse of civility/lack of crumpets today.

          14. Alfred E. Neumann

            Let’s leave it there, Frilly. You keep referring to crumpets and Schenker, two passing jokes I made in conversation with someone else. I haven’t responded to you at all for the last few days, after pointing out how hurtful you were being with your constant name-calling. You’ve tried to engage me regularly since then. Finally I’ve responded to what may be one of your many names, and for no reason at all you’re being horrible to me again.

            Couldn’t you just apologise, and we can start again? Or not apologise, if you’re happy to let your behaviour stand, and simply leave me alone?

  3. My Daddy is bigger than Yours

    The picture of the thuggish old man on the car bonnet is very telling. MF can’t stand elected officials carrying out their mandate. If you see nothing sinister in people using physical force here then you have no place in society.

    How ironic that the creepy hypocrites of this website can see harassment for what it is when it comes to abortion rights but not in this case.

    When I see the thuggish behavior condoned here I think Thatcher was right there is no such thing as society. Just a bunch of selfish individuals who cannot accept the will of the people

      1. My Daddy is bigger than Yours

        No, I’m not.

        Why – anyone who disagree is paid troll.

        It’s not like there are any proper right wing politicians in Ireland anyway

      1. My Daddy is bigger than Yours

        look at the fukker. The sheer agression on his face – he’s right on the bonnet – peaceful protest would be sitting in the path

        1. deliverancecountry

          Look at your vomment, the sheer aggression of your disdain for those on minimum wage and hand-outs, scrabbling to compete against people with four or five wages and free cars and expense accounts.
          Sitting on the ground is wrongful imprisonment according to our dear leader. The message is you’re going to get slapped anyway.

  4. Caroline

    I feel calmer just for reading that. I believe Tom Clonan will be handing out kittens and carnations at the protest on Dec 10th.

  5. Louis Lefronde

    At last someone who speaks sense. Thanks Broadsheet for the Tom Clonan piece. As for Keelin Shanley, well she’s not very bright, is she?

  6. Cian

    Sorry (I thought we could add bold within cite), if you highlight:

    If somebody is perpetrating an assault, then 2-3 Gardai can get them into a hold position a ‘come along’ hold or so on, but you’re not permitted to kick and punch, throwing someone round like a rag doll and bash them into street furniture, that is not consistent with the use of minimum force.

    I think you should also highlight:
    that guards are not there in sufficient numbers and the behaviour of some of the protestors is very, very provocative, I mean, they’re going right up to members of an An Garda Siochana, men and women, they’re screaming in their faces[…]

    1. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

      You could always copy the lot of it onto a doc and bold the lot of it.
      Problem solved.

  7. Kevin Keegan

    I was waiting for a very pro force and offensive argument on behalf of the garda here.I would guess that RTE were also expecting his input to be more of the same escalation and smear campaign towards the protests.They were very wrong.Delighted

    1. jungleman

      No it is highly unlikely they expected this as he has form in taking a left of centre but very reasonable view of things, e.g. the use of Shannon airport by US military, Israel.

  8. Drogg

    Good interview well balanced, concise and factual. Also good to see that someone in a position has his sees and calls out some of the fallacies going on.

  9. nellyb

    “preventative not punitive” – It is a damn good simple rule to assess police behaviour during confrontations. Thanks Mr. Clonan.

  10. Nigel

    Grimly ironic that austerity and cutbacks in Garda training and personnel have left ministers exposed like this.

  11. Surely They Wouldn't Lie To Us

    Coherent well thought out points.
    The Garda spin machine will struggle to discredit him.

  12. Nawfil Musty Bang A Frilly

    Well said Tom. Liking the quiffs too.

    Imagine giving the Guards firearms. Christ on a bike.

  13. Bacchus

    By European Union standards the guards are actually very good, they tend to have a good relationship with the public, we haven’t had deaths on the street inadvertently by way, by way of head injuries and other issues and these are things which happen quite commonly on the Continent

    Several times I’ve seen police and riot police prepare for demonstrations in Europe (no I wasn’t protesting) and they began with a complete lockdown of the area and unloaded ready made barbed wire barricades from trucks to corral an area where the protesters could do what they wanted to do. Any protesters who thought they could bring the protest outside of that were met with batons and pepper spray. What the Gardai did was very mild in comparison and yes amateurish but if people wish to up the ante and protest in this way in the future then they can expect a tougher reaction from the police. Dems the rules.

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