Independent TD Stephen Donnelly in the Dáil last Thursday evening and then Friday morning, when Ceann Comhairle Sean Barrett accused Deputy Donnelly of filibuster
HOW much?
On Thursday evening, Independent TD Stephen Donnelly, among other Opposition TDs, asked Environment Minister Alan Kelly if the water charges would lead to a net income or deficit for the State.
Specifically, there was confusion over whether the €100 water conservation grant will cost the State €130million or €166million – as it wasn’t clear how many households will receive it.
During the debate Mr Donnelly, and other Opposition TDs, repeatedly requested that the Committee stage of the bill be adjourned to allow for Mr Kelly to obtain the correct figures.
As the debate drew to a close, there was this exchange:
Stephen Donnelly: “As of now, the people of Ireland will pay €271 million for their water and the benefit to the State at best will be €37 million and may be negative. This case, irrespective of whether there is a net benefit or cost to the State of charging people for water, is fundamental to this legislation. Can we please, in the interests of good parliamentary and legislative work on all sides, adjourn and come up with the figures? We have an independent expert…”
Alan Kelly: We have the figures.”
Sandra McLellan: “They are wrong.”
Stephen Donnelly: “We have an independent expert which can study the figures, the CER. It already has an opinion paper on this. Let us come back next week with figures everyone can agree on, please.”
The debate resumed on Friday morning and the confusion over Irish Water’s costs remained with Independent TD Róisín Shortall later getting suspended from the Dáil.
Before her suspension happened, the following exchange took place.
Róisín Shortall: “One of the most important roles we have, as Members of this House, is to scrutinise legislation. That is what Members on this side of the House were doing last night. They asked very straightforward, pertinent questions on the financing model of Irish Water. Regrettably, the Minister was not able to answer those straightforward, fundamental questions about his proposal. Overnight, we thought the Minister would check out the position…”
An Ceann Comhairle (Sean Barrett): “I am sorry but we are now dealing with section 7, which is about the setting up of a forum. Deputy Shortall should please speak to the section.”
Shortall: “I appreciate that. We expected the Minister to be in a position to answer those very basic questions this morning. It is a matter of extreme regret, a Cheann Comhairle, that when you came into the Chamber this morning, you came with the intention of shutting down the debate.”
Barrett: “I certainly did no such thing. Deputy Shortall should not make such a charge against the Chair.”
Shortall: “A Cheann Comhairle, your role is not to protect the Minister and silence the Dáil.”
Barrett: “It is not Deputy Shortall’s role to make a charge against the Chair which is totally and utterly untrue.”
Shortall: “Your role, a Cheann Comhairle, is to uphold the rights of Members of this Dáil.”
Further to this, Fine Gael junior environment minister Paudie Coffey and Fianna Fáil TD and environment spokesman Barry Cowen spoke to Cathal MacCoille on Morning Ireland this morning about the matter.
Cathal MacCoille: “Minister Alan Kelly said that this so-called Water Conservation grant, this cash payment to everyone who signs up for water charges, whether they pay them or not, would at one point 1.3million households in the State cost €130million in a full year and yet it was pointed out immediately to him, from the Opposition, that there are 1.6million households and therefore the cost would not be €130million but €160million-plus. Can you explain the confusion for us?”
Paudie Coffey: “Well, first of all, I want to state clearly and, as has already been stated in the Dáil that the €130million allocation is a budget allocation for a demand-led scheme. That it’s not possible for anybody to know how many will actually register at this particular time. So the budget is allocated at €130million. I want to make it also clear that it’s not part of Irish Water, and this is where the Opposition have been trying to…
Talk over each other.
MacCoille: “Let’s just stick to the figures. There are 1.66million households in the State. Are you saying that the Government is working on the basis that not all of them will claim and that therefore it will cost not €166million but €130million. Is that the basis of your calculations?”
Coffey: “Any demand-led scheme that has been operated in the past by any Government or indeed this government has never had 100% take-up, for various reasons. Some of it might be non-compliance and some of it might be just that people don’t register. So it’s a Budget allocation. But the important point here is, if the demand exceeds the Budget allocation, additional resources are then provided. But the important, and most important point here, is the €130million conservation grant is not part of the Irish Water expenditure funding model. And this is where the Opposition are trying to, I suppose, stitch it into it, to try and create obstruction and confusion. But the most important point, I would like to make is this legislation that’s now being passed is for three reasons. One: it’s to cap the charges to make it more affordable, it’s to remove the power of Irish Water to turn off or turn down water in the event of non-payment, which incidentally Fianna Fail opposed, and also it’s to provide a €100 grant for every household…”
Later
MacCoille: “Have you any idea how much this [the water conservation grant] is going to cost and whether extra staff will be needed?”
Coffey: “Well, first of all, can I say that this is typical of the hypocrisy of Fianna Fáil who, in their national recovery plan, had committed to raising €500million per annum from water charges by 2013. What the Government is doing under the current Irish Water funding model, which I have to say, has been subject to full independence, financial and economic analysis by the Commission for Energy Regulation and that is there for all to see on the commission’s website, fully published and fully analysed…”
MacCoille: “Do you know how much the water conservation grant as you call it…”
Talk over each other.
Coffey: “..separating the water conservation grant from the Irish Water funding model because Opposition are bringing this onto the pitch to try and say that Irish Water’s funding model is not sustainable.”
Talk over each other.
Coffey: “We need to raise [inaudible] euros per annum for Irish Water to leverage and additional €600m off balance sheet. The Opposition have no alternative for that cost.”
MacCoille: “Will the water conservation grant cost, do you know how much it will cost and will it need extra staff?”
Coffey: “The water conservation grant will be administered by the Department of Social Protection from its existing structures. There will be some additional operations, logistical and IT resources needed but not anything like the Opposition are trying to say.”
MacCoille: “Well, have you a bill?”
Coffey: “It will be done for a relatively cheap cost.”
Right so.
Listen back here
Dáil transcripts via Oireachtas.ie
Would it not make more sense to discount the bill by €100 ? Simply unbelievable mess to date. Just keeps on giving.
There’s a few reasons they want it to be this way.
Firstly Irish water’s balance sheet looks better
Then they can adjust this ‘grant’ downwards post 2018 while charges are static and spin that costs have not gone up
Main reason is this is a discretionary grant which you must apply for, online or by phone. People are inherently lazy and the takeup of grants for things like bin charges (now abolished, see 2 above) is very low.
I have to say that Donnelly is the most reasonable, most articulate and by a million miles the best performing TD in the Dail. Very impressive.
maybe i am being thick but how is the 100 euro going to make anyone conserve water?
Its not. The bills are now capped at 160 which means it is now a standing charge rather than a pay by use model. Also the metres are now pointless.
But hey, keep on installing them right?
Agree with Gene Keerigan on this –
“This “grant” is a bribe, born out of panic. When Kenny and Burton belatedly realised the extent of the opposition to the water tax, they changed tactics. They slashed the charges. They created a flat rate – thereby making the water meters unnecessary, yet they continued installing them. They pushed everything back down the schedule. Then, they came up with the €100 bribe.
You pay your €260 early next year, and at the end of the year you’ll get €100 back.
The strategy is to do whatever it takes to get people registered. Later, Irish Water can jack up the prices and recover the money they’re now conceding, and a lot more”
They keep installing them, as they’ll make up the money in time..
And here’s that article –
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-so-this-is-our-democracy-at-work-30833924.html
Independent TD Tommy Broughan said: “In over 20 years in the House I cannot remember a time when the ministerial team was not able to present basic figures on committee stage that actually added up.”
Shortall was ready to ask questions. “One of the most important roles we have, as members of this House”, she said, “is to scrutinise legislation.”
And the Ceann Comhairle said they weren’t discussing costs now, they were on Section 7. And Shortall said: “It is a matter of extreme regret, a Ceann Comhairle, that when you came into the chamber this morning, you came with the intention of shutting down the debate.”
thanks Artemis!
No need to thank me.
Thank BS and Gene Keerigan.
Sean Barrett really is an affront to any sort of democracy.
He’s clearly protecting ministers from having to answer reasonable questions on the costs involved with IW.
And the way he starts blabbering in Irish in that clip.. What was that about?
Petulant windbag.
Barrett is a useless little barking dog for his FG masters
I wouldn’t be surprised if he posted on here regularly.
+A hAon
One again Stephen Donnelly is the voice of intelligent/middle ground reason in a debate. Get that man a ministerial portfolio…
It’s an awful shame Barrett doesn’t have the courage to go against the ‘protect FG’ party loyalty in incidents like this. He’s old enough to be near retirement, and has his seat guaranteed in the next election. He has nothing to fear from threats of losing the whip at some point in the distant future. Hes in a unique position whereby he should be able to act with his own morals, instead of party loyalty. But it doesn’t look like he have any, sadly.
I’m so delighted to have seen that video. For a while there I was worried that we were being railroaded into accepting changes to the Irish Water business model. I am now reassured that our parliament is in good hands, thanks to Sean Barret and his puppetmasters.
So there are 1.66 million households in the state. But not all of them are connected to mains water/sewage; if, say, (to pick a number out of the air) 1.3 million were connected, and these are getting €100 each. That would cost…
…€130 million?
Or can you claim the €100 if you have your own well/septic tank?
Yep, it’s 100 quid for everyone, connected to mains, private well or group water scheme.
It’s a fabulous way to spend money, throwing 100 quid at every house in the country, regardless of income, from the social welfare budget.
And if your house is unmetered you can use / waste as much water as you like and still receive a ‘conservation grant’. Where is the motivation here to conserve water?
*turns tap on… goes to the shops*
*back now…. turns off tap*
Did I miss anything?
There’s no shortage of water.. look outside.
It’s all a lie.
None at all.
But in fairness, since we lose 40% of our water through leaks in the network, really we’re producing 40% more water than we actually need, i.e. there is no water shortage, we’re not that profligate with the stuff.
How do they actually quantify that 40% is lost? Just sayin. No doubt if true and 40% was recovered the next owners of Irish Gravy will start exporting
Makes sense. Didn’t we hear that if we all ‘conserved’ enough to avoid charges by staying within our minimum free amount that they’d lower that free amount because you CAN have too much of a good thing. Never about conservation, it’s a tax.
Total mess of a company, I really can’t see it and it’s bent system lasting.
Just on notion of it being a cost, and spending money..
It’s not given to you unless you register. So it’s not really money that they’re spending.. You’re paying for it in advance and get back the rebate.
It also doesn’t really seem like a cost to me, as opposed to a reduction in revenue..that they’ll no doubt recoup later on.
The very essence of tyranny.
Are you sure that this is the ‘very essence’ of tyranny?
Would you like to phone a friend?
Quintessentially tyrannous. Better?
I wasn’t correcting your grammar, more the abuse of the term tyranny.
Not very good at the ol’ communication, are you?
for someone who claims to be an editor, you really should be a big bit better at the grammarz
Well, i was alluding to the fact that people familiar with stalinist Russia for example, might take issue to describing the ceann comhairle’s behaviour as ‘the very essence’ of tyranny.
I could have said ‘stop being such a hysterical harry’. Maybe i will next time.
Indeed, you could have said that, but you didn’t. As your handle belies, you simply can’t miss any opportunity to come off clever-clever on the internet, can you? Your misplaced vanity can’t contain itself! SIlly, self-unaware rotide …
Nope , I didn’t. I thought I’d sugar coat it a bit for you and give you a chance to stop being such an idiot. Oh well, I tried.
You could accept that you (and in fairness, it’s not just you) were indulging in some way over the top hyperbole or keep lashing out the ad hominem attacks on my user name. Freia eh…….
It was actually me who made fun of your username dear, try and keep up.
Hyperbolic, yes, in fairness, you’re right; worthy of a snide reply, no, you were out of order. You know, your snide remarks do nothing but portray you as someone who is here for the sole purpose of making you feel better about some emotional trauma you’ve experienced. Perhaps you have a bullying publisher/board, maybe you didn’t receive enough hugs in your early life. But behind a pseudonym, in the comments section of a popular website is not the place to extract revenge, or receive therapy.
*exact
You’re right. You’ve found me out.
All this time my comments on broadsheet are just a cry for help. All i want is someone to love me, or even a hug from Don. And it took this brave amateur pyschologist to see it, confounding the best in the business. It just shows what one empowered woman can do when unencumbered by the shackles of the patriachy!
RISE UP SISTERS
Sorry, what am I missing here, what has feminism got to do with anything?
Oh come on, this isn’t your first broad assumptions based on usernames rodeo Freia. No need to be coy.
You’ve completely lost me, I genuinely don’t know what you are talking about. “… this isn’t your first broad assumptions based on usernames rodeo Freia.” Have you banged your noggin!?
Why this innocence? Do you dare deny that the dark forces of Militant Feminism™ are flowing through you?
He means you’re someone else he was involved in a dispute with before.
Put another way, he’s a paid up member of the Broadsheet Frilly Keane IS Anne Conspiracy Theory Cell…
He has disputes with people? Never!
I’m with Freia on this. The Coca Cola is clearly a Tyranny Rex
To my knowledge this is my first tete-a-tete with you freia and what a fun trip it’s been. However, I have to go and cry myself to sleep now. I’ll leave you and the sisters to have fun.
Can we compromise and say that this whole setup encompasses some of the traits of a tyranny. i.e. a rubber stamp of a parliament where legislative oversight is actively discouraged by both the executive and the speaker.
Saying it’s tyrannical in essence is not the same as saying it’s the worst form of tyranny ever seen.
Fact is, government in Ireland is a term-limited dictatorship. We don’t have an actual parliament, so when we elect someone, they have untrammeled power. Add the fact that you can change a government but policy remains exactly the same, despite promises pre-election. The people have precisely zero input to how their country is run.
Saying it’s tyrannical in essence is not the same as saying it’s the worst form of tyranny ever seen.
Well spotted. Say, what are you, some kind of book learnerer?
Can we compromise and say that this whole setup encompasses some of the traits of a tyranny
Some traits of tyranny, being like a lot?
(And eh, Frilly who?)
I’m being diplomatic ;)
Yeah.. me too – He’s a tedious person who’d fight with his finger nails, who’s best ignored..
I’m off to burn me bras..
@ Cian. It doesn’t matter if you are connected to the water supply or not. Your mere existence as a household ensures you are entitled to the €100 Water Conservation Grant. This is under the policy of naming things by the exact opposite of what they actually are, as predicted by George Orwell in his seminal work “Irish Water – You Couldn’t Make It Up”.
Hey, my charges for my Group Water Scheme are around €30 a year. Odis is a clear winnar! Thank you noble Enda Kenny, for brilliance of your vision, in protecting this precious resource.
Broadsheet commenters should quit there i-phone commie whingeing and get behind this visionary politician. Seriously folks.
According to CER there are 1.649 million households in Ireland. So multiplied out that’s around €165 million of cost to the State. But that cost gets diluted because as pointed out above not everyone claims it. Furthermore the State gets some of that money back through VAT by people buying a product or service with that 100 euro, i.e buying stuff for a plumber to use or whatever else they want to spend money on. Even if people put it into savings the government get some DIRT.so…not really 160 million cost to the state. what people do with the 100 euro is their own prerogative. but rather interestingly , the people who argue the grant is a waste of money are generally the same people who argue that the government is not doing enough to provide stimulus to the local economy with measures such as say…the 100 grant.
The meters aren’t useless. You can still beat the capped charge and pay less than the 160/260 charge if you are metered.
Shortall is Labour’s only hope, not Burton.
1.3 million makes sense to me
The David Drumm School of Picking Numbers Out of Your Fundamentals – coming to a government near you.
I heard the Shinners got an abacus, so that’s not completely true.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we could cherry pick all those who can speak three minutes of sense without having to agree with each other then form a Government? It doesn’t work that way folks.
Democracy has been eroded all over Europe but voting a private army or a bunch of ‘independent’ wildlife into government is not going to solve this problem.
Lets get real.
I genuinely misread the heading as ‘The Irish Water Bull‘