Archbishop Martin: ‘A Woman Isn’t Simply An Incubator’

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 “From the point of view of Catholic teaching in general medical ethics, there is no obligation to use extraordinary means to maintain a life. That applies both to the woman and to the child.

 “A woman can’t be, isn’t simply an incubator, the relation between a woman and a child is a relationship and it is very clear that one has to look at what stage is this foetus, what are the possibilities, is it even right to use extraordinary means to prolong that life if it is not going to move.”

 “I mean there are cases, for example, it happens very sadly, in car accidents where a pregnant woman is kept alive so the child is born. Each of these cases has to be looked at individually, this is a very different case. I would hope, it’s a pity that all of these [cases] come to the courts to be decided. The medical profession, it should be, within the area of, but there seems to be a polarisation and a fear that things will go wrong, that they’ll have difficulty legally or with the insurance and so on.”

Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin speaking to Pat Kenny on Newstalk earlier this morning.

Meanwhile, Fiona Londras writes on the Human Rights In Ireland blog:

“One important question for the High Court today, then, will be whether or not sustaining life for the amount of time required to vindicate the right to life of the foetus is practicable. In this respect, medical evidence as to the point at which delivery would be safe will be important. Whether or not the Court takes into account the statistical likelihood of survival and statistical likelihood of severe disability to help to determine the point of appropriate intervention (barring any medical emergencies in the meantime) will be especially interesting, but these certainly seem to me to be important elements in determining practicability.”

“Questions of proportionality are also likely to arise and to be influenced by these considerations as to medical practice. Even if the right to life is a pre-eminient right, the Court will surely ask whether the interferences with the woman’s constitutional rights in order to vindicate the foetal right to life are proportionate. The question of proportionality will come down, in all likelihood, to a determination of the extent of the interference which implicates matters of how long her life will have to be sustained considered by reference to the likelihood of optimal health outcomes for the foetus.”

“In short, the High Court today (and, perhaps, the Supreme Court on appeal tomorrow) will have to make a decision as to just how long a hand the 8th Amendment reaches into medical care in this country. It is clear that this is not a case that is governed by the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013. That Act deals only with situations in which there is a risk to the life of a pregnant woman that might be averted through abortion. This is clearly not such a case. However, the 8th Amendment is far broader than abortion, whatever its original intended reach might have been. The fact that medical professionals have felt utterly unable to make a medical decision to cease life support, with the support of the patient’s family, because of the legal uncertainty that surrounds the life of a foetus which is at such an early point of gestation as to be far from viable sharply illustrates the consequences of having constitutionalised the ban of abortion through the use of such far-reaching language.”

Archbishop of Dublin says a woman “isn’t simply an incubator” (Newstalk)

Foetal life, natural death and the 8th amendment (Human Rights in Ireland)

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51 thoughts on “Archbishop Martin: ‘A Woman Isn’t Simply An Incubator’

  1. Eamonn Clancy

    The silence from neo sectarian lapsed Catholics is deafening. They mustn’t be able to compute what Martin said.

    1. Clampers Outside!

      No. I compute.
      He’s saying it should be medical staff that make the decision and it should not have to go to court. And from that, it can be said that what he is saying is that the original neurosurgeons suggestion that the machine be turned off should have been implemented, and that there is “no obligation to use extraordinary means to maintain a life”.

      Simples. Religion should butt out. The law should be changed so that doctors can do their job. That’s what he said. It’s about time too.

      1. Drogg

        I don’t like him and he is a low form of scum for what he has done in the past but this is the right and moral thing to say. Only fascist religious bigots like the sherlocks think otherwise.

        1. Odis

          Really? – Whilst I’m not a fan of the Catholic church or its doctrines. I would find Diarmuid Martin to be a good and decent person.
          From a secularist point of view, I’m glad that a lot of the people who surround him, don’t match him on a human level.

        2. Jordofthejungle

          The Sherlocks are religious? This hocus-pocus “look no religion!” has been taken to such risible extremes by Cora Sherlock insisting on the hilarious production values and stage management of the recent vigils for life, flying “handlers” in from Bible Belt USA to confiscate religious iconography to expunge the religious crusading and deceive people. Not to mention the silence from the so-called “pro-life”organisations when any question is raised as to the source of their funding. The problem is that they really think people are that gullible.

      2. Don Pidgeoni

        Yes. Although he massively misses the point that he helps maintain the legal confusion around such cases by supporting the 8th

        1. Odis

          Ah yeah there’s that too. I should imagine this one is a bit tricky and confusing for him, as well. Plus, I would imagine, he could also get his arse kicked, for sounding fairly reasonable.

          1. Don Pidgeoni

            I think secretly a lot of religious folk understand and support women in their choices. Sad they can’t say it outloud though

          2. Karl Monaghan

            So what if he got his arse kicked? I’d actually have respect for the man then for siding with a woman rather than parroting the Church hateful doctrine.

            Maybe now he understands why the 8th is an utterly awful thing to have in our constitution. I doubt he will actually do anything to make things better though and will fight tooth and nail to retain it.

          3. Marcus Welby DD

            As the gospels so wisely say, if your cheek gets slapped you must obfuscate and dodge, even at the cost of women’s lives, to avoid a second slap. Something like that anyway.

          4. Odis

            @ Karl Monaghan
            “So what if he got his arse kicked?”
            > The trick is to avoid getting your arse kicked.

            “I doubt he will actually do anything to make things better though and will fight tooth and nail to retain it.
            >Why wouldn’t he that’s his job, at the end of the day like.

            (My point is, he will fight more intelligently, than a lot of the tossers that surround him)

          5. Karl Monaghan

            @odis part of his job is to claim he’s a moral guardian. By siding with legislation that completely discriminates against women shows his complete lack of morals.

            He has stood shoulder to shoulder to a man that thinks it’s acceptable to protect pedophiles over children. His morals are questionable and should be questioned at every turn.

            If he was a good man he would use his position to change things. Instead he ties the party line at every turn and should be ignored by anyone that is good for he defends evil. There is no good men in the Irish Catholic hierarchy – they are rotten to the core.

        2. Lorcan Nagle

          While I’d gladly welcome an endorsement of repeal of the 8th from the Archbishop, I don’t expect one any time soon. That said, I find his support in this case heartening, and it does show how far gone some of the vocal pro-lifers really are.

      1. Jordofthejungle

        + 1 This cretin is simply waiting in the (Youth Defence) aisles to pounce in true ABM style. More redolent of too much time on his hands than evincing deeply held well thought-out views. Still it did take him 17 minutes. Of course, dear Eamon is no doubt blind to his own base and febrile hypocrisy.

        Surely the main issue in this case – from a medical – not theological or legal point of view, surrounds the viability of the foetus. A heartbreaking situation for the family is rendered even more difficult by the necessity of court proceedings. Once again, doctors and obstetricians are fettered in the performance of their duties by laws which are theologically and not medically inspired, an anathema for civil legislation but a sound basis for canon law or religiously defined moral guidance. Our doctors deserve to be trusted in the discharge of their duties and not viewed with suspicion requiring a court to step into their shoes.

        1. Marcus Welby DD

          Blaming the church is irrelevant. The Irish people thirty years ago voted for a stupid amendment to the constitution. Their successors don’t care enough to make repealing it an urgent political issue. Compare the water charge protests to the handfuls at pro-choice rallies, and it’s obvious which issue will get more cabinet time.

          1. Jordofthejungle

            I’m not blaming the Church although they were spearheading this outrageous amendment but admittedly pushing it on a deeply religious, immature and largely agrarian society. Preaching to the converted if you like. The sagacious advice of the Attorney General Peter Surherland all those years ago and a few others simply fell on deaf ears.

            Now we have a family forced to go to court with three consultant obstetricians who in their evidence today admitted to be utterly confused as to the impact of the Eight Amendment and fettered in the performance of their duties. They’re afraid to put it simply as a result of a theologically inspired amendment which has no place in any modern constitution.

    2. Niallo

      Who are you calling a neo sectarian lapsed catholic ?
      I’m a jehovah’s bystander btw, (we believe in a superior being, we just dont want to get involved)
      But seriously, yourself and that abm lad should have a day off, its christmas week and all that.

        1. Niallo

          Heh, do you think maybe he’s channeling princess leia’s “scruffy looking nerf herder” rant
          I always wanted to be han solo…

      1. Will-IAmNot

        I hope you are not one of the lads who asked me if I would like to have a conversation about Jesus with me on Bray Main Street last Sunday evening at 10pm. When I said ” you must be joking” either you or your Muttley/dastardly sidekick had the audacity to pipe up “why?”.

        If I ever see you or the likes of you accosting folks on the street again there will be no telling what sort of plenary indulgences I’ll be seeking.

  2. Niallo

    Fair play to him, its basically coming down to cases.
    If the woman is ready to pop, then sure deliver the kid.
    If shes only a short time gone then common sense says she takes priority, manys a slip and all that.
    I hope the woman can die with aome shred of dignity.
    As the arch bish said “is it even right…”

      1. Niallo

        When you come down to cases, like this. The question of “taste” is irrelevant.
        Make no mistake, this is a horrendous state of affairs made all the worse by the ridiculous laws of this tin pot country.
        I’m just being practical and reflecting how it is, as i see it, and i make no apologies for that.
        Happy christmass.

  3. Artemis

    This country is fupped beyond fupped about women.
    Misogynist hell-hole doesn’t begin to cover it.

    ‘Not just an incubator’.. That’s right. I’m an incubator, plus many other things.

    I have no more interest in babies, than I do in Mr. Martin and his ramblings.
    Who the fupp is he to tell me I’m not simply an incubator?
    His opinion on women, means absolutely sweet F.A. to me.

    The ‘haven’t a bull’s notion really about women’ bang from him is scary.
    Why does a man who has probably never had any sexual relationship with a woman, feel it’s his business to comment on women’s reproduction?

    1. Lorcan Nagle

      While we certainly shouldn’t be sitting around waiting to hear what Dublin’s archbishop thinks of women’s health issues, that he has expressed an opinion, and that it’s in favour of supporting the family’s wishies is somewhat important. It’s going to bring the details of the case into the light for more of Ireland’s moderate population, and get them thinking about right to life and abortion issues a bit more.

      1. Don Pidgeoni

        I would love to know how many pro-life people actually sorry this decision. It’s much more nuanced than abortion on demand might seem to them.

  4. ABM

    Wise words from a wise man and I think all of us (no matter what side of the atheist/religous divide we’re on) can acknowledge Archbishop Martin’s intellect. I hope his words can give some reassurance and guidance to our judiciary who need our thoughts and prayers this Christmas. Above all, I pray for the woman, her child and her family.

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