The scene yesterday (above) at 2020 Kettredge Street, Berkeley, California
But the work-visa program that allowed for the exchanges has in recent years become not just a source of aspiration, but also a source of embarrassment for Ireland, marked by a series of high-profile episodes involving drunken partying and the wrecking of apartments in places like San Francisco and Santa Barbara..
The program has been a source of discomfort. James Howard, 24, who went to San Diego in 2011, said it was basically “party central.”
“There were 18 of us sharing a two-bedroom apartment, and the hundreds of Irish students around us were in a similar situation,” Mr. Howard said.“It was my first time away on my own for any length of time. I’m glad I did it, but once was enough,” he said.
Cahir O’Doherty, the arts and culture editor of The Irish Voice, wrote a column in 2014 expressing distress at “the callous destruction unleashed by these loaded Irish students” of a house rented in the Sunset District of San Francisco.
“If you know the city you’ll know Sunset is one of the more desirable locations in which to buy a home,” he wrote. “So those J-1 students actually caught a big break by being rented to in the first place. Nice payback, guys.”“They ripped chandeliers from the ceilings, they broke doors and they smashed windows; they even punched holes in the walls,” he wrote. “Then they abandoned the place without a heads-up or a word of apology.”
Classic victim blaming, in fairness.
Deaths in Berkeley Cast Pall on Program (New York Times)
Previously: ‘All Irish. All Gone’
Fairly selective editing of a much longer article now
Just read it and this is exactly right.
This is a horrible tragedy and this feels like clickbaiting on the back of it.
What else have we come to expect :)
Like we suddenly have high standards in Irish media and public life because Broadsheet once put it up to Dinny? LOL
That’s not really true.The article begins all guns blazing with this angle. If it had been a part of a larger article which set out the deaths first, I’d take your point.
Agreed ESV. And here’s a Facebook review of the apartment building from February, in which an unhappy resident complains that other students “keep the entire complex up at night”. There are no J1ers in Ireland there in February.
https://www.facebook.com/arhsmacdude/activity/910129945693644
Work hard , Play hard, its 20 years ago since I did anything as a student, but if I remember correctly , employers were pretty satisified with J1 workers , ya sure there was the odd drunken incident , but no more frequently than native kids as far as I can remember ….
and building regs are building regs, as far as I know alcohol does not dilute them
Nasty piece of journalism.
Dear NYT: there are young drunk kids everywhere.
A poorly built balcony is a poorly built balcony.
Know the difference, tw@ts.
The combination of both is fatal
It’s only in inbred Paddyland that people would have a problem with pointing this out
And what would your excuse be if they were all sober?
If your aunt had balls would you insist she get gay married ?
Where’s your evidence that none of them were sober?
I didn’t assert that point. I said if folks were drunk and there was a sham balcony shite would happen
If this was a 21st for a gang of Pioneers that balcony still wouldn’t have held their weight. There’s been zero suggestion things were out of hand or rowdy – a noise complaint is pretty par for the course, as the Berkeley po-po have said.
You’re going out of your way to try and castigate these dead kids, why?
No ain’t doing that buddy. You’re being unfair.
But you keep bringing up the fact that, shock horror, they were drinking at a 21st and it ran past midnight – what evidence have you heard that links this to the collapse of a rotten balcony? A balcony designed to support a load far greater than 13 people on it?
I didn’t present any such evidence. I argued the possible combination of the two could be fatal. Do you disagree?
No Joe
The balcony
Or any balcony
Let’s be fair to all balconies like
Is simply not capable of measuring the age, nationality, gender and toxicity of those upon it
Weight. Yes.
Did the Berkeley balcony measure weight and issue a warning?
A structural engineer has advanced that regardless of the state of the balcony it was not going to support 13 young adults. See guardian article here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/17/five-irish-students-killed-in-berkeley-balcony-collapse-mourned-in-ireland
The engineer says she believes the balcony to be 4ft x 6ft, yet there are reports stating it was 5ft x 10ft.
The regulations are supposed to allow for an above-normal quota of live loads. People would not have a tendency to believe a balcony has a weight limit, nor that a balcony is anything but robust when it is part of a structure and where there is no obvious forces to compromise it, e.g. an earthquake. We’re all aware of upper load limits for lifts because it’s printed on the thing. A lot of damaging speculation out there. If the inspector’s report is to take 3 weeks, wait 3 weeks.
racist much, NYT??
as Phil said, building regs are building regs.
racist? Seriously? Please expand
it smacks of the “the Irish are alcoholic animals” slant you get in the Australian press.
I actually can’t stop thinking about this article. Focusing on how some Irish ripped out chandeliers etc is a way of saying that these people deserved to die, and that they brought it on themselves. Akin to coverage when a black person is murdered by a cop in the States — “oh well you know they had a police record”
Read the whole article.
It’s not racist in the least.
“can’t stop thinking about this article”
It sounds like you have nothing better to do than have some faux moral outrage on the internet. Get over yourself.
sorry, Web Police. please don’t ticket me.
Get over yourself. +1 for expert trolling though
“RAcist much?” Aaaargh!!! Speak English will you, damn it!?
Not the time for this discussion. 6 young adults dead, families distraught. Jaysus.
+1
+1 and a lot of the friends of theoe 6 probably read this page as Irish abroad. Whatever your opinion is about the J1 system, perhaps best leave it aside for a few weeks.
Sky News also made reference to ‘several complaints from neighbours about noise’ in the apartment before the tragedy. This sort of reporting is not ‘racism’ or in poor taste, just the facts, unfortunately.
The article in he New York Times, if you read it, or even just read the excerpt above, generalises the behaviour of Irish students in the US on the J-1 visa program.
No it doesn’t. It gives some background as to the nature/reality of the J1 experience. Nobody is suggesting these kids were responsible. It’s interesting how we here in Ireland, particularly in these pages, are critical of our relationship with alcohol. Yet when someone else alludes to it we go postal. Jeez, the article was balanced and reporting the facts.
On a side note, most countries don’t have the same wonderful view of the Irish as we seem to think they do.
RIP those poor kids, and thoughts are with their devastated families and friends. Tragic.
+1
I’m disappointed with the NYT for this. A very insensitive article to say the least
Just plain & simple very very bad journalism. These people would simply do anything to sell their news papers.
Shite journalism
Yeah, there’s loads to say here but not the time or place.
+1
Of course this is the time and the place. It’s news to most people.
The problem here is that it’s all true.
This is how we are viewed by other nationalities. Until our young/old can behave themselves abroad, we’re going to be the butt of jokes until such a time until we cop on.
Possibly. The report into this tragedy where 6 young people were killed on a balcony (that may not have met regulations) is not the place to be talking about another situation where Irish students ripped a chandelier from a ceiling.
Imagine somebody belonging to you was killed in this incident, and all the reports you read refer to the behaviour of the drunken Irish.
Why not?
Well because it’s not relevant. You’re covering a lot of ground in this thread. What has the chandelier incident got to do with a shoddy balcony collapsing and killing several young people?
Do you deny that Irish kids behave drunkenly abroad?
What has a faulty balcony got to do with young adults behaving drunkenly? Yeah there is a problem with drink in this country but it has absolutely nothing to do with the death of these people and it’s not appropriate to use the incident as a launch pad for an argument against Irish j1ers.
In my opinion the fact the debate is taking place is helpful as it highlights the obvious dangers of both over consumption of alcohol and possibly also poor enforcement of building regulations. Do you disagree?
No, not in the slightest. See my above comment.
It had nothing to do with drunkenness. It had everything to do with the rotten balcony.
That’s your opinion but I fear you are mistaken.
They were behaving themselves, they were having a party and this accident was the result of a structurally compromised balcony.
If it was American students dying in a similar incident in Belfield the Irish Times wouldn’t be bringing up US imperialism and gun control because ‘that’s how they are viewed’.
Yes, behaving themselves to such an extent that a neighbor called in a noise complaint. Sounds like you need to re-read the basic story of what happened here.
Piss off mate. Find another story to play your sh!t out
You’re a wretched, mean person, I’m sure the people in your life see that.
They don’t say that the accident was the result of anything.
They reported the facts of the case and provided background of what exactly a bunch of irish students were doing in america for the summer for a largely ignorant audience.
It’s pretty basic reporting.
Except that it is related due to drunken carousing
Was every 21st birthday party you ever went to a drunken carouse? Are you a ascetic monk or something? Are you horrified these kids weren’t in bed by nine for mass the next day?
You are really going out of your way to try and find a fault with them – the balcony was ROTTEN.
Yes every 21st I’ve been at there was drink taken. And yes the balcony was rotten also.
@Jessica
I think most people realise that they should judge each individual on their merits, not on stereotypes.
I think most of the racist jokes have died out, along with the generations who reared on them. That is my experience in Australia.
The entire piece when not quoted horribly out of context is a pretty good summation of the J1 experience for an american audience who have no idea what a J1 is.
i doubt you’ve ever been on a j1, probably thought it was a bit unholy
Fierce quick to jump to conclusions aren’t you Starina
I really don’t see how the quotes above are “horribly out of context”. The piece leads in on them and returns to the drinking angle on numerous times. It’s an insensitive piece. Not racist or a stain on the history of journalism, just insensitive. Those quotes represent it well.
You do know it’s the year 2015. And that piece was wrote in 2014.
As Mrs Rock said above this is not the right time to discuss the issues relating to the behaviour of our lot abroad.
In a couple of weeks perhaps but the NYT article could not have come at a more insensitive time…
I know it seems insensitive to us but you need to understand that in a few weeks (or in a few days) this will be well out out of the NYT news cycle
next article down is “As Stress Drives Off Drone Operators, Air Force Must Cut Flights”
Also pretty insensitive to a lot of afghan/iraqi/pakistani people, news in the US.
Did my J1 in San Diego 15 years ago. 8 of us in a small 3 bed apartment. We had lots of parties, some noise complaints, some knocks on the door from the cops (two tickets!), some complaints/threats from the letting agent, made a mess of the place, but didn’t burn it down or completely trash it, and cleaned it all up when we left, to the extent that we got our about 80% of our deposit back at the end of it all. We sure as hell weren’t their best tenant ever, but we probably weren’t their worst either. Imagine we were a fairly standard example of Irish J1-ers, as opposed to a few horror stories.
Why do any of you even care? you don’t know these people …..
It called empathy. I care about you’re mental health too. We need a national debate.
Ha, nobody biting your troll bait.
Jog on, you prick.
Oh, I spoke too soon. Goddammit Digs.
Did the first of my two J1’s in 1998. There was a load of American students staying in an apartment next to us. They had a bit of a dispute with the landlady. Within in the week they upped and left in the middle of the night with rent arrears, but not before they absolutely trashed the place on the elderly women who owned the building. Not just or even a problem with young Irish students.
My thoughts are with the families of this awful tragedy.
Overall, is the J1 and the behaviour of students on it really a source of embarrassment and discomfort to Ireland, as the article states?
Probably not
A quick Google search of the keywords ‘Irish’, ‘J1’, ‘San Diego’ (or, really, any California city – though, most of the quarter of J1 students that come to California end up here in San Diego), and ‘damage’ will return loads of articles from the past decade or so from Irish media outlets about the issues with the reputation of the program. Words like “disgraceful” and “embarassment” aplenty.
This is a horrible tragedy and the NYT screwed up with an inappropriate narrative frame, that – yes – like others have said – was meant to be informative since there are 300 million of us and maybe 10 people know what a J1 is. I only know about it because of the issues friends and family (Irish in San Diego) have had with Irish students, in particular.
It was a tone-deaf frame, but let’s not all have collective amnesia about the issues plaguing the J1 program – particularly in places like San Diego, Santa Barbara, and San Francisco.
I’m waiting for somebody to claim that the waterproofing that was supposed to protect the timber supports was doubtlessly damaged by all the beer and whiskey being spilled over it on a nightly basis by the drunken Irish.
alcohol doesn’t melt wooden beams
Linking this tragedy to an old story about some random rental property being thrashed by people who also happened to be Irish is rubbish journalism. How is that relevant?
The NYT might want to cover how unwelcome American visitors to the Middle East have destroyed the lives of millions.
RIP.
ANYONE who has EVER rented in California will know the level of detail a lease contains, right down to disclosure about lead being used in paint.
So, before all you budding civil engineers rush to judgement with your Monday Morning Quarterbacking on the standards of construction – and you can be SURE that Berserkely has some of the toughest protection codes in the world – perhaps you might consider what the lease contained and what protection was offered too, who signed it and whether using the balcony was covered.
@Breakfast Roll Man
You might want to read this:
https://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/06/17/the-wood-was-so-decayed-the-broken-beams-crumbled-in-the-hands-of-investigators/
Even if the lease had some entry about the balcony being out of bounds, that would be inadequate, when the standard of the construction was so poor.
Really surprised at the NY Times. What were they thinking. No wonder newspaper are dying on their feet if this is the sort of judgment they exercise when covering such a tragic story. Fail.
“For decorative purposes only”
According to WISITP just now