From top: Former residents of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home, Peter Mulryan, and PJ Haverty
Last night TV3’s The People’s Debate With Vincent Browne took place in the Galway East constituency.
During the show, historian Catherine Corless introduced two former residents of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home, Peter Mulryan and PJ Haverty.
Ms Corless said Peter has a sister buried at the home but explained that he doesn’t know where she’s specifically buried.
Both men then spoke.
Peter Mulryan said:
“In the mid-Forties I was born in Tuam, in the home there and my mother was separated from me, just after a year of being there. I was taken out of there after four and a half years in that area which was absolutely shocking. Every child there went through that system, came out with pot bellies and why?
If you starve an animal or a dog, what way do they look? That’s the way we looked. It’s frightening to think we went through the same system and I inquired why this happened. I looked for information from Galway County Council, I looked for information from the church, I’m now asking the State to get heavily involved in this, as Catherine is after saying there, I also have a sister laid somewhere around, I don’t know where. I’m making inquiries, nobody can tell me where that angel lies tonight, nobody. And I will find out, no matter how long it’s going to take, what was done to my sister, laid somewhere and no record.
We have a birth record and we have a death certificate but no one will tell me where she is laying tonight. And this is one of the questions I’m asking of the church and the council and the State: to get me answers because I must find, I must find out where. Because I don’t want her lying in what I was told where she may be but we will find out sooner or later…”
“I was four and a half years there, I was adopted out in not nice conditions whatsoever. [My earliest memories were] isolated. I’m not worried about work but the way I was treated, every day I got up: beaten. I dreaded summers for the simple reason here, I never spoke about this before.
Many would get beaten with a rod or a stick, I was treated with nettles. Nettles put inside my trousers. I hated seeing summers coming because I knew this was going to happen again. I was put into a bag one day, I was told I was going to be put into the bog hole. That was my life story. I could go on for another hour.”
“The [foster] mother was an absolute angel and she would often say, when I was being hammered, ‘you might want him yet, some day’ and it did happen. I did [meet my birth mother] with a struggle. But I did meet her, she was in the home for 35 years. I wanted to take her out. I used to take her out once a month and I was told I was coming too often.
But I wanted to take her to our own home but was denied the chance and she died of a broken heart in that place, where she worked for 35 years in slavery, in a laundry where she worked in a cold yard, frosty mornings and the old-fashioned way of washing clothes and they couldn’t talk to their friends beside them. Nobody knew what was going on within the system.
They couldn’t talk about their life or complain. They were never let out to do shopping, anything. They were just what I call, like myself, nobody. She died there and I didn’t know it in time to visit her either. She died aged 84 and she’d been there 35 years.”
PJ Haverty said:
“I was born in the home in Tuam as well and I spent six and a half years there and I was told that I went to the national school for two years, which I did and we had to go in ten minutes late in the morning and leave ten minutes early in the evening, so as we wouldn’t mix with the kids from outside, in case we’d tell them anything about what went on in the home.
And in the playground we were cornered off in a section so we wouldn’t be allowed to play with the other kids. So, lucky for me, I finished up in a fantastic foster home and I was looked after very well and then my foster mother was very good to me and we decided to go looking for my birth mother because she felt sorry for my birth mother. So after great work, a social worker accidentally left a file opened and my mother’s name and the address was on it, so I worked from there and she was in Brixton in England. And she had married with no family.
So, when I got to meet her then, she told me what had happened in the home. That she was rejected by her own parents because of the Catholic church, being pregnant outside of marriage, and had to be taken to Tuam. And they didn’t have the hundred pounds to pay.If she did, she’d have the baby and be released again straight away.
But she had to stay there for 12 months, to work there as a slave, looking after the babies, cleaning and tidying the place. So when the 12 months was up she was shown the door and told to get out and I was going to be fostered out.
So she went down to the hospital in Tuam and got a job there as a cleaner. So every so often she would make that 10 minutes, 15 minutes walk to the home and knock on the door and ask could I be seen, could she talk to me, ‘could I take him away from there altogether, I want to look after him’ and they said, ‘no’, they closed the door on her face. And she spent about six years doing that. Til eventually I was fostered out then and she decided then, there’s no hope staying here, so she went to England.
And she went to Brixton then and she married there. But had no family. And she told me this story and I thought about Our Lord being crucified but my god these mothers, you know in the homes throughout Ireland, were crucified. And I blame the church, I blame the State and I hope that you don’t delay and get to the bottom of all this and not to drag it out like we’ve all these tribunals going on 20, 15 years.”
Thanks Luke O’Riordan
Previously: Reputable History and Mortal Spin
F**king hell.
You just don’t want this to be true.
Well, that’s me angry for the rest of the day then.
Maddening is an understatement for these types of acts of barbarity and downright cruelty, in living memory.
Ireland under the influence of the Catholic church was a depraved place. These men, and so many other men and women like them, deserve answers, and the dignity that should be a human right in the contemporary world
“Ireland under the influence of the Catholic church was a depraved place”
That is a ridiculous statement. Abusive orphanages or homes existed everywhere. This isn’t an Irish scandal or a Catholic one. Its a scandal on how institutions mistreated children. The average kid in the average home had an equally happy childhood as today.
Nonsense, the entire rationale was driven by Catholic “morality”. It’s seriously disingenuous to attempt to disassociate the two. It may not be your version of Catholicism, but it was, and in some quarters still is, the prevailing version.
Not true at all. Being cruel to children is not Catholic morality and never was. The worst things happened in industrial schools and the concept behind industrial schools was not specifically catholic. people thing Magdalene laundries locked up young women against their will like slaves but getting pregnant but that is not the case at all. Many affected were destitute, mentally ill or petty criminals and probably were virgins.
Then it’s bloody strange that it was endemic to Catholic institutions if so. Just a coincidence, I suppose.
The industrial schools were run by Catholic organisations.
And the Magdalene laundries did lock up young women against their will. If the body of evidence doesn’t convince you, you’re a lost cause.
@Davey,
Protestant reformatories and Industrial Schools also existed in Ireland. I live in Germany and there was an identical phenomenon in the local reformatories. Its really just an institution that is prone to abuse.
Modern day equivalents of these institutions exist and by all accounts they are still hard places but thankful we more committed to making them safe.
I think you should read up more on the laundries and not watch fictional films or documentaries with dodgy sources.
I agree Magdalene laundries did lock up women against their will but they may have been a minority. I don’t t know but I would like to know. Many were underage and there for could not leave until adulthood while others who were mentally disabled probably were unable to live outside.
I guess its Christian then.
Good man Bob, as long as there are apologists like you around to muddy the waters (for some) the church can rest a bit easy. Nowhere in the world was child and mother abuse more systemic more cruel and more tacitly accepted than in the twisted irelands of the past.
It was people with your complicit mindset that allowed this to happen Bob, pray for yourself.
@Bacchus,
“Nowhere in the world was child and mother abuse more systemic more cruel and more tacitly accepted than in the twisted irelands of the past.”
Anyone can make wild assertions. I doubt you can back it up. Thiis just another case of Irish exceptionalism.
“It was people with your complicit mindset that allowed this to happen Bob, pray for yourself.”
I think you are losing grasp of reality?
No Bob I’m not. After posting that I saw more of your catholic apologies further down. You are exactly what I said you are. This wouldn’t have happened in isolation, if people, people like you Bob, had stood up to the church in Ireland instead of making excuses for them, like you do Bob, it would never have happened on the scale it did. You are still part of the problem.
I am in my fricking early 20s. I am not more to blame then Aodhan Riordain is to blame for Ceausescu.
I seek truth and when I see dodgy grand narratives I destroy them. Hence my comments. Reality is far complex then you imply.
Ah I see… you simply don’t know what the hell you’re talking about but you’re going to try and contradict everybody anyway? Some of us lived through Bob, some of us lived in spite of it. It’s strange to see that mindset in a young person but there you are…. making excuses for them, telling us that worse things happened elsewhere as if that mattered. Grownups know that doesn’t matter. It was pure undiluted evil we lived through and if you don’t believe me then believe Peter and PJ above.
You’re talking bolli@ks Bob and we know it.
I was not for a moment attacking comments made by former residents, just the absurd hyperbole comparing this to the Killing Fields or Auschwitz as well as many misunderstanding that have to countered and corrected. Evil happens everyday and certainly Ireland was not exceptional in any regard now or then. And I don’t have to live through the era to know that.
Our experiences no matter how terrible or destructive do not give us a right to manipulate history. The Tuam sewer baby case is prime example of how misreporting and ant-catholic prejudice can create widely accepted myths.
Ant-Catholics – small or far away?
Bob you are deluded you can make all the excuses you want for the catholic church this will not change what hey have done to the people of this country they have a lot to answer for.
“Bob you are deluded you can make all the excuses you want for the catholic church this will not change what hey have done to the people of this country they have a lot to answer for.”
Facts and fairness matter. All I have been doing is myth busting and giving context.
“All I have been doing is myth busting and giving context.”
lol
myth busting ? have you had your head up your arse for the past few years, you clearly believe all the propaganda you have been give by the catholic church. where do you get your so called facts.
Bob is right of course. these stories were an anomaly. but the modern chattering classes in Ireland seem to insist on seeing the past as a kind of wicked hell. facts no longer matter. only that we can all feel morally superior to this mythical past and publicly display our outrage about it. thats whats important.
Terrible smell of Bob off ye.
…in the killing fields of Cambodia, Bosnia or Darfur forensic scientists would have exhumed these bodies and established probable cause of death…the only people preventing that here are the church and those protecting the church.
this.
Whose cause of deaths? In regards to Tuam exhumation is being considered but it probably won’t happen as 1) cause of death is unlike to be identifiable on so long infants, 2) bones might not be even there and 3) the growing uncertainty that acts of criminality occurred there.
…glad to be the one to let you know Bob but the science has advanced hugely in this area – unlike your antediluvian beliefs. I agree though, exhumation at Tuam probably will not happen but not for the reasons you have listed.
It advances all the time but usually cause of death of death is only detectable for chronic illnesses where there is time for the bone to remodel in a disordered way. Most of these kids probably died from acute illnesses that came and killed quickly like gastroenteritis. Many causes of death are invisible to the bone.
Also infant bones are extremely fragile making the task even harder.
…there are few illnesses more chronic than malnutrition or neglect. We don’t really need this evidence to make a case against the sadistic nuns and other ‘religious’ because we have first hand testimoney from the victims who survived….testimoney that only you, Martin McAleese and the legion of other catholic apologists seem to be in denial of.
I am not forensics expert but I do have some training in oseotology and pathology and I have worked with infant bones. The information recorded on these state-issued certificates shows that the children died mostly from acute illnesses like of tuberculosis, convulsions, measles, whooping cough, influenza, bronchitis, and meningitis, among other illnesses. Mostly conditions that imply unsanitary conditions. indeed the death rates was actually lower in Waterford for part of the Home’s history. For some reason you have a weird need to exaggerate this to be some sort of concentration camp. its bonkers.
What post was on here of a report that showed that mortality was significantly higher in these homes than in children with their own families? Anyway, don’t think that point stands bob
@Don Pidgeoni
there have been no reports by anyone on Tuam. What I coped and pasted was actually from an article that pointed out mortality for most of the home’s history was lower then in some regular hospitals. later on there was a peak of mortality (higher then elsewhere) which was followed and hence the place was closed
My point was not general but if there are no reports on Tuam you can’t make claims about mortality
*more general
But keep digging there
That’s another day with a broken heart
I was born in one of those homes. I was lucky though. My paternal grandfather was a force of nature. He got me after six months. My mother went through hell in there. What shocked me most is the sheer volume of victims. We have a very grubby history.
And this is the body we have running our schools.
I can’t get over the sadism of the so called Christians involved.
This breaks my heart, it really does.
…..there’s simply no truer feeling than dread to imagine going through that.
The people who treated these women like this were vile. Nothing more than evil sh1ts on a big power trip.
I hope these victims get the resolve they deserve.
This was nothing more than systematic organised crime and should be treated as such. This is not a matter for another inquiry or “commission”. This is wholly a matter for the Garda no matter how long ago it was. It’s time to start throwing nuns and priests in the slammer.
And taking our f**ping schools back!
How much evil does this organisation have to do before we cop that they probably should have NO role running the schools we pay for?!
“How much evil does this organisation have to do before we cop that they probably should have NO role running the schools we pay for?!”
eh actually they paid for the schools in the first place and each Catholic school is indeed owned by a catholic body or trust. Catholic schools have a hugely positive legacy in Ireland which we should be very grateful for.
Wrong again. Our then-British Government built and paid for our schools.
Not sure about that. Even today schools reply heavily on fund raising. Historical the running costs have subsidized heavily by the local dioceses. Most secondary schools were set up by orders.
Can you back that up with any sources?
No problem.
” The vast majority of primary schools are owned by the religious denominations…….Traditionally, the site for national schools was provided locally – either directly by the patron or as a result of local fundraising. There was also a local contribution to the building costs and the running costs… A local contribution was formerly required but has now been abolished…”
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html
http://www.education.ie/en/The-Education-System/Primary/
Certainly the State has financially contributed hugely to the school system and has a right to dictate some terms but its simply not true that that state has paid for it all. Over the decades local Catholic communities have paid built these schools and paid for the education of countless secular and minority religion pupils. After benefiting from the arrangement for generations its hypocritical for secularists to now refuse to reciprocate and cover the costs of Catholic schools.
Srsly. Catholics invented schools?
Paid for it out of their own pockets though, which is nice.
So some schools were paid for and maintained by donations from the community rather than the church
@Don Pidgeoni,
“So some schools were paid for and maintained by donations from the community rather than the church”
The local community was the church. The diocese’s income was always the community donation. Irish dioceses don’t have crazy endowment trusts that can pay for stuff like that.
No because they funnel any profits up to the Big V. The community paid not the Church – whether that community is catholic or not is not what you initially claimed
Second line, Bob.
“The State pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.”
The church is not the state, and you’re talking out your arse.
Don Pidgeoni,
“No because they funnel any profits up to the Big V. The community paid not the Church – whether that community is catholic or not is not what you initially claimed”
The local community is as much the church as priests or cardinals. Its very clear you are just working off your hunches. Cross check what I write. You’ll be surprised.
Bob stop being thick. If you say the church paid for something, that is the church as an organisation using its wealth to pay for his or services, not tapping up the local community
“If you say the church paid for something, that is the church as an organisation using its wealth to pay for his or services, not tapping up the local community”
But the church is the local community. that is how the church is organised. I can’t really make that any simpler. What you think of as the church is the clergy not the church.
Pretty sure most people would have thought of the church as an organisation as well, especially based on your original comment.
Bob, as with all of your comments here you are very, very wrong. The national school system, (initially intended to be non-denominational, but hijacked by the RCC in the mid-19th century for their propaganda purposes) was funded almost in entirety by the state and continues to be so in the case of per capita funding for students, teachers’ salaries and building/maintenance grants provided by the Department of Education. Monies from fundraising came from hard-pressed families and communities, not the church. The same is true for the majority of second level schools, whether they are secondary or community colleges. There is nothing to thank the Catholic Church for in the area of education, we would have had and in reality do have a state system regardless of their input.
@AmeliaBedelia,
I was quoting citizeninformation.ie. Are you describing citizeninformation.ie as incorrect? There was requirement for a local contribution towards school costs. Thus a substantial amount of running costs were raised by the church/diocese/board.This is no longer the case as schools are much more expensive and diocese have far less cash to spare. Most primary schools are national schools were the local church supplied a site. While many secondary school were initially started by orders who built and run these schools. We have a lot to be grateful for to the catholic and protestant churches.
To reiterate, out your arse.
“To reiterate, out your arse.”
You have truly lost the argument.
There is no argument, you’re just spouting nonsense.
How has anyone not spotted that “Bob”, is ABM who has also been recently masquerading as “Ted”. Similar writing style and syntax although Bob is a vehicle to peddle an agenda, inciting replies and engagement from others without being tainted and written off as comments by ABM invariably tend to be.
I’m new here, but cathotalibans usually show the same neurolinguistic pattern, so isn’t easy to discern.
Anyway they do all the same, declare something false with that sense of “It true everybody knows how can you possibly be fooled by the evil catholic misinformation”.
Bob is slightly more illiterate.
“How has anyone not spotted that “Bob”, is ABM who has also been recently masquerading as “Ted”. ”
I don’t know who ABM is and I have never used that id.
“Bob is slightly more illiterate.”
What irritates me is how you try to write people off without actually even once confronting the contested point. If you played the ball and not the man maybe we could have an interesting discussing.
actually he reminds me more of newsjustin who made our lives so worthwhile and fulfilled during our referendum campaign
You have balls of smoke.
…had me fooled…I was sure english was not Bob’s first language and while I wasn’t impressed by what he said I was by the way he said it.
You go to mass this sunday , baptise your kids, participate in communion and confirmation or support the catholic patronage of primary schools, you are repeating the cycle in modern times, you are tacitly supporting the monsters who tortured these kids …
This imprisonment, slavery, torture and murder was not a big secret. This was done with the full compliance and cooperation of the state and society. Families put their daughters into the laundries. Gardaí returned runaways. The uncomfotbale truth is that the Irish people allowed this to happen and helped it to happen. It’s not enough to just point the finger at the church.
I agree with most of what you said, but this republic has improved marginally since its foundation, and in theory we have the power to improve it further, we also now have some protection from EU Human rights legistation. What hasnt changed is the Catholic church, they may be better at hiding their crimes, and their lay supporters have become very sophisticated , but hey are still doing untold damage to this society , the invisible hand works in many ways , and anyone who participates in the organisation is complicit in past and future crimes, in my opinion …
But what has changed since then. Look at how as a society we are treating the refugees who have been stuck in limbo in a similar prison, unable to leave for a decade on €19 a week. In 20 or 30 years we will be talking about that situation in exactly the same way. so what can we do about it now?
That made me laugh, thank you.
put down too good for them
Trivial point but these stories should be on the history syllabus of our schools. We have our own Auschwitz.
Exactly.
We’ve already started into the year long s****ology about 1916, who owns it, were they heroes, etc. It will garner many more column inches and air time than stories like that of PJ and Peter. We don’t need a conversation about 1916, we need a conversation about the atrocious country it resulted in.
‘The Rocky Road to Dublin’ film should be shown on loop on a big outdoor screen somewhere during the entirety of the 1916 celebration weekend.
To quote the film: “what do you do with your revolution once you’ve got it?”
Excellent film, eye opening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_1NCJwHYMY
I don’t even have words. So sad for the victims, so angry at the establishment who allowed this.
The utter brutality is staggering. What on earth made them think that this was ever acceptable?
Those poor men!
Those stories are heart-breaking. I will never understand how humans could (and still can) treat a defenseless child in such a disgusting and barbaric manner, or how a person can justify to themselves that it is OK to inflict such pain and hardship and unbridled judgement on another.
How will the Communications Clinic spin this one?
Thirty Five Years penal servitude for the “crime” of having a baby. Abuse heaped on abuse for both mother and child. I’ll bet non of the Bon Secours sisters had pot bellies from malnutrition.
I wonder what it was like for the nuns. What was going through their heads.
Their own misery on a loop. Likely some of them had the same childhood experience. Vicious circle. No excuse though.
For the record internetz, I don’t think I agree with that. It sounds a bit simplistic.
Very upsetting to read this , So sad for the victims and their loved ones , how do you ever overcome something like this happening in your life
This brutality was legitimised by its context. If these atrocities were carried out other than on religious controlled premises, there would have been hell to pay. If the brutality was undertaken by persons who were not wearing the black uniform of the religious or by their lay associates, laughingly called teachers, there would have been hell to pay.
As it was it was all undertaken ” in the name of the Lord” by the successive church hierarchy endorsed by successive state authority. The Catholic church over the years made millions from the sweat, tears and misery of the tortured souls they persecuted and indeed were paid a handsome per capita premium by the state for each prisoner/slave they had in their grasp.
Interesting that one correspondent on here tries earnestly to deny this ever happened….I expect he would also strive to deny the holocaust.
“If these atrocities were carried out other than on religious controlled premises, there would have been hell to pay” Are you really telling me that this sort of cruelty never happened in Irish prisons or fully secular institutions? That is a hell of a leap.
The reason we have to cautious is that there are wildly conflicting witness reports. A Board of Heath report in 1935 described it as “one of the best managed institutions in the country” and in 1949, a local newspaper said that an inspection had found, “everything in very good order and congratulated the sisters on the excellent conditions.”
I would rather believe those reports (which could have been biased because the institutions probably KBE when inspections would happen) than the eye-witness accounts of those who experienced it too….
You aren’t coming out well here Bob
“I would rather believe those reports (which could have been biased because the institutions probably KBE when inspections would happen)”
Well frankly they are all evidence. and its a bit hypocritical to dismiss one as it goes against your agenda. A staff member could have shown great cruelty to a kid despite otherwise it being a clean decent environment. We really need all data possible.
Those reports would never have contained such claims. They are hardly reliable or evidence.
Absolutely disgusting. Who or what is stalling this criminal investigation?
“Absolutely disgusting. Who or what is stalling this criminal investigation?”
The guards have previously stated they are not pursing a criminal investigation as no evidence of crimes have come to surface. There is a enquiry underway though.
Surely centre to any enquiry or investigation is the exhumation of the bodies?
“Surely centre to any inquiry or investigation is the exhumation of the bodies?”
That not so clear at all. The terms of reference are- were there illegal adoptions, The nature of vaccine trials, living conditions and care arrangements in the institutions, their mortality rates and burial arrangements.
Dreadful isn’t it? Who’s going Body and Soul? Yeah, can’t wait!
That bob should not be given air space on this matter. A ignorant tool in society and a mouth like a torn pocket. Give it a rest me boyo, and knock of the stupid banter.
I have been involved in the investigation of this type of burial site for many years, and the excavation of the tunnel under the M&B Home at Tuam is vital to recover information. I spoke personally with the witness who fell into the tunnel which contained ‘Shelves stacked high with bundle of dirty rags and bones and small skulls across the floor.’
The retrievable forensic information from such skeletal remains is invaluable in determining evidence. I have also carried out initial researched into the Tuam site and located burials close to the site, but no one is interested.
I can also state that during a meeting with Galway Council in 2014, they confirmed that the Nuns in charge of Tuam do have the burial records for those who died there and will not give this information out.
Lovely nuns
@Toni Maguire
” I spoke personally with the witness who fell into the tunnel which contained ‘Shelves stacked high with bundle of dirty rags and bones and small skulls across the floor.’ ”
Very interesting. This set up sounds like the nicho used in Spanish cemeteries today where the body is placed in a shelf in a crypts .
As it stands there are good death records. Death records are nearly always more comprehensive then burial records. It is surprising to hear that there may be burial records despite the countless reports to the contrary in the press. Of course these reports in the media have been anecdotal and unreliable.
Bob your inane comments defending the Catholic church are antagonistic to say the least. As you can clearly see from the other replies, the people of Irelands main concern is the victims of abuse at the hands of the catholic church. Noone is in the least bit interested in what (if anything we should be thanking the catholic church for)
You may very well be correct about them setting up and funding schools, but the barbarity they carried out in those schools and institutions far negates any good. My father was sexually abused by a priest in a rcc school and my mother savagely beaten by a nun for a knitting anomoly (aged 5) so excuse me if I think their abuse of power is nothing to be thankful for. You think these acts of abuse werent the norm?? think on.
Regardless of good done by the church in Ireland, the evil far out weighs it. Your over the top defending of the church, shows how little you know on the topic. If people exaggerate the truth of the matter, perhaps its a shock reaction to how long it was swept under the carpet.
So please Simmer down and leave the comments to the adults, as a I mentioned before the time for defending the church is over. Give the victims their time to speak without your silly tripe.
@LolaPoppy29,
I can’t imagine the damage that sexual abuse causes to individuals. And I have no doubt many live in silent trauma never confronting this horrific issue for reasons. If we consider that specialists estimate about 10-25% suffer such abuse in their childhoods it dawns on us how massive an issue this is.
I totally agree about the seriousness and the evil of this abuse. However this is not a Irish problem or a Catholic one. Its an international one that is present in all countries. Before 1950s child abuse was barely referred in in medical literature. Don’t get me wrong, Ireland failed its children and it was it was swept under the carpet. I am not trying to defend wrong doing. but the fact remains that priests or nuns are no more likely to abuse then PE teachers or councilors. Most priests, brothers, and nuns did stellar service that we should be grateful for. I didn’t live in the 1950s but all those I experienced in the 90s and 00s were very good people.
Deny all you like Bob. The only person you’re convincing is yourself. I can clearly see from your previous quotes you are a keyboard warrior, hell bent on pushing your agenda (that clearly noone is buying) I for one have given you too much air time and refuse to debate with someone who defends an organisation who for decades ruled with an iron fist – abusing women and childen physically, mentally and sexually in the name of the church. However small the percentage of the population is deemed to be affected is irrelevant to the victims who did suffer (which is why people are commenting on this lest we forget)
This issue is no longer under the carpet and we no longer follow the catholic church in blind faith thankfully. Good day.
Also.. taking sexual abusive out of the equasion and simply focusing on the school system focusing for example on the 50s and 60s in Irish schools. These shools were ran as we know by the catholic church and the children were thought by priests and nuns. No child was exempt from physical beatings in all schools around the countries for a wide range of reasons from the trivial down to serious misbehaving. I dare say that figure is 80% of all school childen affected during that era. Not 10-20%.
These schools also had many lay teachers. yes plenty of kids were slapped just like in any home today. Sometimes there was beatings. I have never heard of girls being beaten but it seems to have been terribly common in boys industrial schools.
Bob for the sake of Ireland, please don’t procreate. Much appreciated thanks.
“Bob for the sake of Ireland, please don’t procreate. Much appreciated thanks”
I think you are just trying to provoke maybe as you lost the argument. Either way its immensely dickish.
I wasn’t involved in any “argument”, this is my first comment.. got your facts wrong again Bob. I’ve just happened upon this thread, and having read it thoroughly was inspired to comment.
No need for name calling now Bob you’re only showing your age ;)
Seriously Bob, do you not realise you’re regarded as the village idiot here? Find another village.
@Twoodlepip
Yes, I know that was your first comment. And your comment implied you were intellectually aligned to comments I was criticizing. I didn’t call you names. I criticized your action. Telling another human not to reproduce is poor form.
Oh Bob. I feel sorry for you. Hopping on every comment within seconds of posting, so evidently getting riled up behind your screen. You’re like the one person in a crowd who has to be the last to clap. Well clap away Bob, you’re alone in an empty room and no one is listening to you anymore. Over and out.
“Oh Bob. I feel sorry for you. Hopping on every comment within seconds of posting, so evidently getting riled up behind your screen. You’re like the one person in a crowd who has to be the last to clap. Well clap away Bob, you’re alone in an empty room and no one is listening to you anymore. Over and out.”
WTF do people feel the need to make such ugly ad hominem attacks.
“Seriously Bob, do you not realise you’re regarded as the village idiot here? Find another village.”
Your attempts to shun and bully me away will not yield any results.
But they do yield results. Every post you make shows you up. I’ll ignore you now and hopefully everybody else will too.
BTW you’re not important enough to “shun or bully” except perhaps in your own head.
” Find another village”
“But they do yield results. Every post you make shows you up.”
you are just contradicting yourself now make up your mind.
Factionalism is a very human trait. Because we’re social creatures, we tend to pick a side and stick to it. And very often, it’s easy to get into a sort of tunnel vision and defend your ‘team’ regardless of what they’ve done.
So, Bob, when you stand up and say that the Catholic Curch takes a lot of flak, it’s true that they do. But a lot of it (maybe not all, but definitely a lot) is deserved.
Specifically in this case, the residents of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home are the victims. The Home had a responsibility to keep them safe, healthy and prepare them for adult life. And it failed them. You can lay that blame in a bunch of places – not least of all attitudes in society towards the poor and social outcases, but the ultimate responsibility for their lives lies with the Catholic Church. It was members of the clergy who ran the home, and either they didn’t keep a close enough eye on their subordinates, or they didn’t care. In which case their superiors in the church either didn’t keep a close enough eye on the home in general or didn’t care, and so on up the line.
In business and process management, there’s a concept of responsibility and accountability – any number of people can be responsible for a task, or a portion thereof; but only one person is accountable, and that person is the one who answers all the questions when things go wrong, and their head is the one on the chopping block. In the case of the Tuam Home, the Church is the institution that is ultimately accountable for what happened.
It is really nice to see a comment engaging in the issues and I thank you for taking the time to write it.
I agree that the residents of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home are the victims especially the lives of the lost infants. I never suggested that the orders or clergy are victims. What I was really trying to do was to show how far-fetched some of the extreme comments here are. Additionally I was trying to present the other side of the story. The staff that ran Tuam hold total responsibility (Bon Secours sisters, not clergy if you excuse my pedantism). The ‘Church’ as an institution is doing what it can to help but legally speaking it does not have responsibility, as the local diocese had no role in its management. Like all orders the Bon Secours are autonomous. There is additional responsibility on the State as they owned the institution and they frequently inspected it. One of most important resources to assess the conditions of this place is the inspectors’ reports that have survived and they tell us a mixed picture. Some reports were terrible some awful.
There are a lot of things we don’t know and much of the media reports have proved to be unreliable. One indo article referred to many described residents as being referred ‘mentally defective’ in reports as if this was linked to neglect when in reality it could refer to kids with Down syndrome. A central concern is the mortality rate. We know exactly what the death was and it was horribly high but actually lower than some hospitals. For all we know many residents may have received decent care.
” For all we know many residents may have received decent care.”
I’d prefer to go with what we do know.. They didn’t.
Read the post again. Slowly this time.
And malnutrition affects brain development. More often, it was children who were to difficult to deal with. The mortality rate should be lower than hospitals because these should be healthy kids, and in that day and age, people went to hospital and often didn’t come out. Not sure why you think that is a good thing.
>>It is really nice to see a comment engaging in the issues and I thank you for taking the time to write it.<>I agree that the residents of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home are the victims especially the lives of the lost infants. I never suggested that the orders or clergy are victims. What I was really trying to do was to show how far-fetched some of the extreme comments here are.<>Additionally I was trying to present the other side of the story. The staff that ran Tuam hold total responsibility (Bon Secours sisters, not clergy if you excuse my pedantism). The ‘Church’ as an institution is doing what it can to help but legally speaking it does not have responsibility, as the local diocese had no role in its management. Like all orders the Bon Secours are autonomous. There is additional responsibility on the State as they owned the institution and they frequently inspected it. One of most important resources to assess the conditions of this place is the inspectors’ reports that have survived and they tell us a mixed picture. Some reports were terrible some awful.<<
And I note you've not addressed accountability at all.
Argh, Killed formatting:
It is really nice to see a comment engaging in the issues and I thank you for taking the time to write it.
I don’t think you understood the point of my post at all
I agree that the residents of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home are the victims especially the lives of the lost infants. I never suggested that the orders or clergy are victims. What I was really trying to do was to show how far-fetched some of the extreme comments here are.
And that’s a mix of victim-blaming, diversion and a little bit of tone policing. Instead of addressing the actial problem – that representatives of the Catholic Church have been responsible for even more horror and hardship in the lives of Irish people, and that people are understandably angry, you attack the people for being angry. Even if the Church doesn’t deserve everything that’s being said about them, it’s the height of bad taste to do it in a discussion about the eyewitness accounts of their victims.
Add to that your bad faith debating tactics, not least of which was making declarative statements of victory in response to other declarative statements, and it’s no wonder you’ve gotten the response you did.
Additionally I was trying to present the other side of the story. The staff that ran Tuam hold total responsibility (Bon Secours sisters, not clergy if you excuse my pedantism). The ‘Church’ as an institution is doing what it can to help but legally speaking it does not have responsibility, as the local diocese had no role in its management. Like all orders the Bon Secours are autonomous. There is additional responsibility on the State as they owned the institution and they frequently inspected it. One of most important resources to assess the conditions of this place is the inspectors’ reports that have survived and they tell us a mixed picture. Some reports were terrible some awful.
Interesting that you’ve talked a lot about responsibility without actually taking a stance on it. And I note you’ve not addressed accountability at all.
“you attack the people for being angry. Even if the Church doesn’t deserve everything that’s being said about them, it’s the height of bad taste to do it in a discussion about the eyewitness accounts of their victims. ”
When did I attack anyone? I have commented and added to the discussion respectfully and in response I have been victimized and subject to abuse but oddly you don’t criticize that do you? One has to fight the ignorance and error in the comments here.
“Add to that your bad faith debating tactics, not least of which was making declarative statements of victory in response to other declarative statements, and it’s no wonder you’ve gotten the response you did.”
Its a fact that when people can’t find points to debate anymore they resort to abuse.
“Interesting that you’ve talked a lot about responsibility without actually taking a stance on it. And I note you’ve not addressed accountability at all.” My comments about responsibility also apple to accountability.
Abuse?
I’ll give you abuse you craven puerile wretch
I lived in Tuam when I was a child, near that dreadfull MB home.we were all terrified of the place. The people were terrified of the Clergy. Girls could be heard screaming at night and no one could do anything. Every Irish family wanted a Priest and a Nun in the family, mainly because they wanted to get rid of some of their children and they also got free education. It was a horrible time to be a child in Ireland you were always told to obey your elders. Some nuns in my school were very cruel, especially to the poorest and always slapping them with their leather belts. We were afraid of the priests coming into the school because the nuns were teaching catechism and he woul ask us questions. We had catechism for first class every day. I think all or most of those religious people hated being priest and nuns. They let their anger and frustration out on innocent children. They should not be let away with all the horrible things they did. They should go to jail for the torture of those children. The clergy always had good food to eat and everyone bowing down to them wherever they went. It has turned people away from religion. We were really treated like peasants.
Thanks for sharing your story. Presumably Bob will pop up to tell us now your story is unrepresentative because there are bad people in other countries too. Thanks again
There is a lot of backlash to each other on the comments above – concentrate on what is happening and the crime and cover up of so many children and mothers – I have read that the Catholic Church in Ireland is one of Pharma’s biggest customers – the Catholic Church sells women to pharma – that is the reason why many of those women were kept for 35 years – into their 60’s. 70’s and 80’s – so that their female organs and bodies were used in the learning labs of hospitals for their university medical students – paid and sponsored by pharma – traffiked by a Government and an Archbishop that would leave Auschwitz passing the humanity exams – Hitler did not hide what he did – he tried to justify it – the Church and State today stand shameful – they hide behind their crocodile and tears yet they are the pharma front gestapo – there is no schindlers list for survival just the public if they dared to take the time to save lives – as the Laundries were exposed the Catholic Church ran out of bodies for pharma – now the HSE and the Church and State are literally taking women from their homes for pharma experiments – as always the pharma trials are a multi-million industry for the Catholic Church – as for the Catholic school control – a Fr Michael Drumm of Lucan West Dublin has vowed that he will go to Court to ensure that the Catholic Church controls school and education and has talked abouit banning any teacher who is not a Catholic from teach in his schools – research it – the priests in communities are using citizens to hound, stalk and track women on their own for the pharma industry – Fr Tom Kennedy of Lucan is one such priest – he employs a retired garda Brendan Kennedy to do his stalking – many women of post menopausal age have committed suicide because of what they have been subjected to in hospitals and sure who would believe them – Fr Sean Healy and a Sister Reynolds have been employed by the State to change community forums and County Councils throughout Ireland and any voluntary organisation – the one theme within them all is for communities to seek out any woman or man in their community who is different, who may be a loner, who does not involve himself or herself in community activities and who may need Mental Health assistance – where was this done before – of snooping on your neighbour, your family, your friend…I have named the names of those in the frontline snoops for pharma…now please read the following….
Dear Marion,
I wonder how you are and where you are. I would like to think that you
are back at home, enjoying your lovely garden that you spoke to me
about…
I write here Marion about the abduction of our lives…On this page I
mostly write what has happened to me as Pharma’s mafia continue to
torture my body – in their attempts to force me back to Lab 101 for
Novartis monitoring of their barbaric trials which they sponsor in
Tullamore Hospital and that hospital we were both enslaved in.
I may come across as a bit of a rebel but what can I do other than speak out as long as I can against such medical and community torture sanctioned by a corrupt Government deptartment which is sponsored and run by
Novartis and their sponsored keyhole vilians.
Either way we are both abducted women in Ireland
as the world is silent on what are pharma and medical torture in
Ireland 2015. When I met you Marion in that hospital I did not tell
you that I had been dragged out of my home for asking that doctor in
Tullamore Hospital why did I have pelvic bruising and cuts to my
pelvic area – but that does not matter now. We met in that hospital
and there amongst other women we settled into compliance and
acceptance that we must have done something wrong. After all Marion we
were enslaved in a prison that has no rights. We were locked in and we
ate when we were told and queued in line to take our several times a
day drugs of silence and control.
We had no choices in our older years Marion – all our rights taken
from us – I could have gone along with the corruption that is Mental
Health – I could have taken their drugs where they confirmed to me can
cause Parkinsons Disease – they tried to convince me because I knew
what the surgeon in Tullamore Hospital had done to me that I had a
chemical imbalance – you would laugh really today Marion if you knew
that on Fair City a mother actor is telling her son actor that he has
to see a psychiatrist because he has a chemical imbalance…yes Marion
Fair City is pharmatised. You in your far away eyes and myself we know
that there is no such thing as the chemical imbalance. Marion you and
I did no wrong – our crime was to trust doctors in our own country and
they have lied to us and betrayed our lives and our bodies. You
admired my red Rosary Beads – you probably still have them around your
fingers – I pray with all my heart that you are safe but knowing what
I know now about the medical and pharma cartel of corruption and
torture to human life I write this letter to you and for you.
You were there just a few weeks before me. You told me that you drove
yourself there and hoped to get home soon. Both our birthdays had just
come and gone…We were the same age and the same month. I think now
that the list for abductions must go by our dates of birth yet we both
lived in opposite ends of the country. Imagine that Marion – we were
getting on with our post-menopausal lives and believed ourselves to be
free and blessed in life. Little did we know that we were products of
human life and sold into medical torture by Church and State…Yes
Marion we are the new Magdalenes, the new symphysiotomy women the new
female slaves of Church and State.
I have no doubt Marion that in someway you were coerced into
psychiatry – did the medical mafia ask you to “go in for a rest”. You
and I did not speak about that in that place. You spoke about your
lovely husband – how he died – some years later Marion you met another
man who sadly got cancer and also died…you spoke that you were a
lucky woman to have met two wonderful men who had loved you and
treated you so well. You told me how your husband died in the UK in
the 1980’s, how he was knocked down and died. You told me about how he
had said to you, if anything were to happen to him do not leave him in
the UK but to bring him home to Ireland for burial. You kept his
wishes Marion…you did all of that and moved back too so that you
could visit his grave. If only your dear husband could see what
Ireland has done to his lovely wife. You told me that you both had had
a lovely life in the UK and were very happy there. We both said almost
every day that we just want to go home.
Marion, I saw them take you down two or three times a week for ECT
that they gave you – you never questioned anything – you went along
with what they did…I wonder did the doctor ever sit down and explain
everything to you. You were such a nice gentle soul. When the nurses
called you again for the timed drugs – sometimes you told them that
you had already been down to the nurses station and had been given
that timed drug…but they would give it to you anyway and God love
you – you took that drug too. After several weeks of several ECTs you
were becoming confused…another lovely woman there would look out for
you and the three of us were friends for that time.
One night you were told to fast as you were going down early the next
morning. When you came back later that day – you got out of the bed to
go to the bathroom. As you walked past me you said you were in
terrible pain and that the pain was going right up through you. I knew
then Marion what probably happened to you…but what could I say there
were ears everywhere. It was not safe to talk. A while after that you
were even more confused and you would chat away about us all being in
a hotel and that we were your neighbours…Wouldn’t it be wonderful
Marion if that was true and that we could all meet up again soon –
this time in a hotel by the sea.
God love you Marion, you became more confused and was unsure which was
your wardrobe…I opened your wardrobe door and showed you all of your
lovely clothes – your birthday presents from September were still
there and you asked me “Are they all mine”. I told you yes and I
suggested some change of clothes for you to put on after your shower.
You were so childlike by then but I will never forget your eyes…the
hurt was there and I knew that you knew there was something bad
happening but you did not know how to voice it. Your body too is more
than likely full of keyhole surgery marks. How would you understand
what has happened to you. Have they forced down your brain and your
memories so bad now that they can do what they like to you. Have they
stated to your family that you suffer now from Dementia…Have they
the medical cartel of corruption placed you in a nursing home….Have
they started the process to sell your lovely home you spoke so
lovingly about…to pay for your care. By the tme I was “released” you
had been moved to the 24 hour watch ward – at mealtimes you had almost
stopped eating completely – I could see the weight falling off
you…As I stood at the ward door that last day you turned around your
head in your bed – we waved to each other – Oh God Marion what is this
corrupt Church and State doing to women like us. 2015 Marion and a
whole Irish Society once again silent on the abduction of human life
for Pharma barbaric trials.
The pain going up through you Marion my dear enslaved friend – Have
they, the medical mafia, mutilated you too and taken your female
organs as they have done to me. Sure what can we say Marion – even now
with evidence of other procedures done to me other than that foot
operation family and friends do not understand as they believe in the
“good” doctor but just like the Magdalene women and the Symphysiotomy
women Marion we know what the medical cartel of criminals are capable
of…even with the evidence no Patient Group, no Department of Health,
no solicitor…we have been abducted from our lives Marion by the same
Church and State that grabbed women and children from their homes and
from the streets.
Reading back through this Marion I pray with all my heart that you are
sitting in your lovely home in front of a warm fire. If I had gone
along with the medical mafia Marion I could be probably be there with
you in that facility of cover up that I fear you are in. I am still
here outside but not free. Imagine Marion the Irish Army and Gardai
fire some weapons at me that bring up round circled bruising on my
body – I must be Ireland’s most wanted – I am certainly Novartis’s
most hunted – The sadness of it all Marion. I know Marion that up to
June 2013 you have placed a memorial in the papers for your husband –
I could not find one for 2014 – and yet I found many up to
2013…within two months of that you were enslaved in that place.
Marion in memory of you where ever you are I now call us abducted
women for pharma mafia and Church and State abuse and torture “The
Marion Women” and in some future day, future time we will be
vindicated but my dear friend so many of us will have suffered torture
and death by then. God Bless you and we will walk through moonbeams in
time with Angels of Love and care all around us.
Your enslaved pal,
Teri – written on behalf of
“The Marion Women” who have been abducted and enslaved in Ireland for
Pharma abuse and torture in clinical trials by Irish Church and State
2013 –
And it’s these kind of testimonies that the State wants buried for 75 years.