Nothing encapsulates the awful level of Irish policy discourse like Eircode.
Rather than an objective analysis of the pros and cons, the “debate” is dominated by a series of illogical, contradictory and inaccurate tirades from individuals and vested interests who refuse to consider the bigger picture or long-term benefits.
First and most importantly it is never acknowledged that the only way to bring about a near-hierarchical addressing system would be to allocate road or route numbers to every single non-unique address in the country.
As most roads traverse more than one townland and most townlands contain more than one road, the traditional townland line will not fit properly into these new addresses. Space would have to be reserved for new buildings, resulting in address such as “J Murphy, No 3001 L3867, Ballymagash”.
Do your correspondents really think this would be a significant improvement over the Eircode system? Given the vast resources (dwarfing the Eircode outlay) that would be required to assign route numbers to every highway and byway, mansion and cottage in the country, it would need to be.
Eircode features code redundancy and checking so that a emergency telephone operator immediately sees if an Eircode is valid or if a character is incorrect.
That is not the case with regular street numbers or a GPS system; therefore Gerard Bennett’s advice (January 11th) that readers should avoid Eircode (presumably in favour of manual directions) is truly baffling, if not dangerous.
The Eircode website features an excellent mapping system that can link to a mobile phone’s mapping app. Offline maps from the leading manufacturers will soon be available and will work in areas with no mobile phone reception. This will be an enormous boon to the emergency services and lost tourists.
If adopted by Government and the public service, the new unique addresses have the potential to reduce fraud, waste and errors in many services and in revenue collection and disbursement. As a law-abiding and tax-compliant citizen, I would certainly welcome this.
I also look forward to the day when I can send birthday gifts to my niece without a courier telephoning me to request turn-by-turn directions.Matthew Glover,
Lucan,
Co Dublin.
FIGHT!
Eircode – the bigger picture (Irish Times letters page)
Previously: Eircode Red
Meh… I always thought it was a pretty good system in fairness, and was reluctant to jump on the bashing bandwagon so many people readily leaped onto. What will be the measure of its success, however, is whether GPS systems like, in particular, Google Maps and Garmin, accept and adopt it.
so Loc8 Code was proven and in use with industry support when the procurement for Eircode was commenced;- any idea why it was not considered?
brown envelopes?
Because it is 8 letters (and some random dashes) rather than 7 – more digits always being worse than less digits when humans are to use the code.
They bear no relation to the existing Dublin postcodes which are embedded & recognised.
I like the idea of the code being related to GPS as Loc8 is but there are clearly reasons other than corruption that Loc8 might not be chosen.
Many Eircodes do not point to the correct building – they are grouped at a common location;- especially for businesses and apartments. So for that reason an Eircode very often also needs a property number in order to find the correct address. For this reason an Eircode can be 9 or more characters long to be useful and when most of those characters are structure-less and random – they are not at all suitable for human use.
A Loc8 Code is actually 7 characters long but one extra checker character is added to help identify and clarify potential errors in human handling. An Eircode has no such capability even though it has more propensity for error because of its randomness. Unlike Eircode, Loc8 Code does not use spaces as spaces invite error and cannot be used in a URL. Loc8 Code uses dashes and therefore can be used in a URL as follows http://www.loc8.ie/W8L-82-4YK. Eircode has no such useful capability.
The official reasons given for not even considering Loc8 Code was that it was a Location Code and they said it could not be used for manual inward or outward sorting by postmen.
Yet Eircode now claims also to be a Location Code and is not and cannot be used by postmen for manual inward or outward sorting of the mail. Because Loc8 is hierarchical and not random and has a visually identifiable structure, it has inherent manual sorting capability.
This therefore, leaves no reason why Loc8 Code could not have been at least allowed to present its ideas as to how the code could have been delivered as a National Postcode.
Isn’t Loc8 a private company with their own geo location system?
Gary, as the founder and CEO of the company you are referring to; Loc8 Code, I am sure you have an opinion on why it was not considered and will be happy to share that opinion here. As you have been elsewhere.
Loc8 was in use by industry. Horsesh!t!!
I’ll file this under “a series of illogical, contradictory and inaccurate tirades from individuals and vested interests”
It’s installed on Garmin sat navs.nthats a business!
While there are flaws with Eircode, that first full paragraph is trill, yo.
I think the issue as discussed here before wasn’t do with the flaws in the eircode system itself, but the fact that the system wasn’t being adopted by the emergency services or An Post and was incompatible with other online or GPS mapping services.
The system has been adopted by An Post though.
I asked my Postman if I smacked an envelope in the system with just my Eircode, reminder now that the Eircode is my entire address, could they deliver it and the answer was a resounding No.
So by adopt, you’ll need to expand as it would appear they don’t nor have any intention to support it.
No – An Post was 2nd in the postcode tender but as part of being second they negotiated with the winner that they would allow the winner use the Geodirectory at a cost of €8.2m. They also negotiated revenue from delivering the Eircode letters and using postmen to help keep the address database up to date. Therefore, they ended up as a subcontractor to the winning consortium. They have not adopted Eircode in their systems. Just walk into a local sorting office and you will see them sorting by hand which cannot be done with a random Eircode and ask your own postman has he been given any technology to help decode an eircode on his route – the answer will be NO.
An Post have not adopted Eircode but they are receiving money indirectly from the State for allowing it happen! Minister White has been known to state otherwise but these are the realities of the matter,
@classter source?
They claim to:
https://twitter.com/Postvox/status/666219038469693441
I know that you Dav (Gary) think that they are lying.
but they don’t – this makes it pretty clear:
http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2015/1127/20888275-is-the-new-eircode-system-working/
No it hasn’t. https://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/01/13/code-of-dishonour/
The many critical issues with Eircode’s procurement, design and implementation have been rehearesd many times and it is always interesting that the factual opinions of experts, the C&AG and an EU investigation team are ignored in favour of uninformed opinion.
As well as many other issues with the factual content of Mr. Glover’s opinion, he suggests that Eircode can be used offline. Whilst it is the case that Google maps can now support this feature, it is an absolute fact that Eircode cannot. To navigate to an Eircode via Google maps, the user must first go online to Eircode finder and have the eircode converted to a Lat/long first before proceeding. In the absence of internet, phone coverage or phone credit this will not be possible. On the other hand, point8 which is Loc8 Code’s app can be used offline without coverage or credit;- one of several reasons why those involved in major emergency planning in Ireland use and rely on Loc8 Codes since 2012.
Over the 2 years since the launch of Eircode by then Minister Pat Rabbitte in April 2014, Google, Garmin and others have been asked to consider Eircode on many occasions. In all that time they have not chosen to support it because it does not live up to their expectations or their customers demands.
Garmin on the other hand has been supporting Loc8 Code in development and full deployment since 2007 and have renewed it’s commitment to Loc8’s Free and standard availability on their devices.
Whilst those associated with Eircode Inc., DCENR and Minister White’s office seek to obfuscate fact with propaganda, citizens and industry professionals have already voted with their feet and ignored Eircode even though the best part of €50 million of taxpayers money is being wasted on it!
+1 e-vote
‘In all that time they have not chosen to support it because it does not live up to their expectations or their customers demands.’
That is not strictly true. They are waiting to see if it gains a foothold or not before they invest in incorporating it.
It is true actually.
As a mutlinational company, my company would need to update it’s entire datebase worldwide because we deliver to Ireland from over a hundred countries. To facilitate the introduction of Eircodes in Ireland would cost over €400K and for a country the size of Ireland, it’s simply not worth the expense.
We actually have An Post deliver to the more rural (hence, unprofitable) parts of the country and they do not required Eircodes, just a full postal address. So what’s the point?
The Irish Government has been developing a postcode solution officially since 2003. If it was unable to convince technology companies in all that time, including those residing in Ireland and benefiting from a favourable tax regime here, them there is simply something radically wrong with the solution.
The same person who championed the winning Capita bid for Eircode had his ideas turned down by both Garmin and TomTom previously so the omens were never good!
Garmin on the other hand implemented Loc8 Code in 2009, before it was ever officially launched in 2010.
Gary, you have an excellent product – just not as a postcode. The biggest strength of your system – the fact that anyone can create an ‘address’ anywhere in Ireland is also the weakness of it.
The verified database is a big part of the functionality, no? The postcode is used to verify all sorts of stuff in the UK.
Ah, there it is now. I think that as you are the CEO of Loc8 Code you may be a bit biased here.
I think that as the CEO and developer of Loc8 Code, a professional Navigator, a Land Surveyor, a GPS & Mapping Consultant, a forensic positioning examiner, a location intelligence expert witness for the State, a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Navigation, a fellow of the Society of Chartered Surveyors of Ireland and a Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors with an MSc in Navigation Technology and with 30+ years experience in practicing and teaching positioning and navigation, I might know what I am talking about!
Gary
You also have a very clear conflict of interest in the matter. As the developer and owner of a competitor product that you have actively promoted for use as a Post Code for Ireland you have a very real and direct interest.
That does not mean that you cannot have an opinion, nor that you should not express it, but you should state your interest in the matter on the face of your posts here.
As a professional member of Society of Chartered Surveyors of Ireland and Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors you should be aware of conflicts of interest should be declared.
Rich,
there is no conflict of interest in expressing an opinion or promoting an alternative solution under my own name which is well known and recognised on this subject – you should be aware of that especially if you are choosing to give others advice.
Given the reaction to my input here, there is no doubt as to who I am and clicking my name leads you straight to the Loc8 Code website so there can be no doubt whatsoever. It would be nice if it was as obvious who you are?
You absolutely have a conflict of interest, you own a competing product. Your citation of your professional memberships is somewhat negated if you don’t understand what professional standards require.
Loc8Code is free to end users.
Richard/Rich I think you should identify who you are.;- that would be a good professional standard to begin with.
There is no conflict of interest in a professional expressing a contrary opinion to a Government backed solution or offering a better alternative. It really is no concern of mine if that upsets your sensibilities.
As for real conflicts of interest, well let’s start with the Dept of Communications allowing An Post compete in a tender when:
1. It had advised them in the lead up to the tender
2. During the tender in which it was competing, An Post went to the high court to ensure that it did not have to use the outcome of the tender if it lost (and does not either)
3. During the tender in which it as competing, it was also negotiating with the same tendering party as to how much it would be paid to allow the winner of the tender use its products
4. After the tender, though having lost, it got paid <€10m by the winner of the tender (an indirect payment from the State) to allow the winner fulfill the tender requirements (though badly)
……..and other similar conflicts of interest related to it and other 3rd parties involved in the 13 year Eircode postcode debacle
Feel free to contact me personally if you wish to discuss (I have no doubt you know how to do that) I am always delighted to engage directly with persons who identify themselves and are honest about their related interests.
Gary,
you continuously sock puppet under the handle @GetLostEircodes don’t you?
You have SFA credibility
Sorry but you are not at all correct – fairly obvious I would have thought.
I would suggest that Gary is the ONLY person with credibility in the whole sorry saga that is Eircode. Gary is the only one professionally qualified by far. That might upset the keyboard jockeys but a postcode is about navigation & deliveries not databases that’s why Eircode is the fookup it is.
stop twisting the letter
He does not suggest that Eircode is available offline.
Once Garmin/Here/OPenMaps etc integrate it will be available offline.
Also if you search on finder.eircode.ie on you mobile it will open an offline map! (for when you venture out of coverage)
And if your auntie had balls she would be your uncle.
Eircode coming to satnavs July 2015, scratch that September 2015, scratch that before Xmas, scratch that sometime in 2016…
With millions in the pot they couldn’t even fooking bribe Garmin & Google to use.
Just to be clear;- if you do not have an internet connection you cannot search Eircode finder in order to open an offline map!
Even if if could, entering many Eircodes will bring to to the wrong building via the wrong road from which there is no entrance or access. Take Autoaddress’s (the Eircode contractor) own Eircode which points 2 buildings away from where it should be – very embarrassing. It is also a health and safety hazard if an employee has an accident especially as a loan worker late at night. It introduces major problems for insurance also;- it could turn out that the wrong building was insured in the event of a claim!
Is it that Eircode means “future” or something;- those involved in it keep telling us about what might happen in the future.
Can I suggest that in the not too distant future, with White and Labour no longer involved, there will be no future and Eircode as a major political embarrassment will be confined to history like e-Voting and PPARS
GetLostGary
you were on twitter claiming Garmin would never support it; they since said they plan to!
Your system is rubbish and will never take off; you’ve done a good job of knocking Eircode though I’ll give you that.
If I want to give a courier my GPS coordinates I will, I don’t need a second rate app to do that
when you get a chance publish where Garmin or Google have made a statement that they will be proceeding to implement Eircode and in what timescale?
We were previously told by Liam Duggan of Eircode that Garmin and TomTom would be doing so by last Christmas which turned out to be no more than hopeful speculation. We were also told that Google would be supporting it by September and then November last year but that did not happen either.
I am not saying by any means that they never will. It is very easy for a Government to incentivise use of even the most useless initiatives like Eircode, but there is no evidence whatsoever that that is programmed to happen anytime soon.
The fact is that Eircode has not achieved any of its intended aims firstly because it is inferior, secondly because those involved in delivering it do not have the required experience and finally because those involved naively expected that because it was a Government funded initiative it would be a shoe in when the relevant industries;- none of which are that foolish!
Of course the Irish public will only use something that is useful to them and it is the public that will dictate the success of Eircode;- but they were never consulted – not a focus group nor a localised test….. just ignored even though it was their €50 million that was being spent!
I agree with the article wholeheartedly.
It makes no difference to me at all as I live within the M50 and have a house number etc.
No delivery makes it to my parents house without a phone-call for directions or a plea to just leave it in the local shop.
Having lived in the UK for a few years where the postcode is well bedded in, it would be great to see the same thing in here too.
have your parents noted any change since Eircode was launched nearly 2 years ago?
Eircode was only launched in July 2015, six months ago.
No – Eircode was launched in April 2014
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/news-and-media/en-ie/Pages/PressRelease/Minister-Rabbitte-launches-Eircode-the-new-location-codes-for-Irish-addresses.aspx
Your link notes that Eirocde would be available to the public in Spring 2015.
So you are being disingenuous.
…and it was only six months since Extremeacc’s parents would have been told their Eircode, and thus see any benefit.
@classter,
NO there is difference between a launch and a roll-out. A launch is when the product is ready, tested, plans made, first clients onboard as reference sites, case studies in place etc etc . rollout could happen at the same time but in the case of Eircode many things were needed before rollout including new legislation.
The fact that it is 6 months since roll-out is used as an excuse by Minister White and Eircode contractors for not achieving any users or key industry acceptance. However, as with any other product, all that should have been onboard at the time of launch. When you consider that Capita were awarded the Eircode contract in Dec 2013 after almost 3 years of a collaborative tender process when all detail was supposed to have been agreed (payment of €8.2m to An Post was agreed then) it makes the lack of success all the more substantial. Not to mention of course the fact that Eircode was in planning since 2003.
There is no excuse therefore that An Post is not using it, that Couriers are not using it, that the Emergency Services are not using it and that there is no support from the tech industries;- Google, Garmin, TomTom et al. If €50m and all the powers of a government Ministry could not achieve these things in 2 years (or even 13) then the problem is the product and the people behind it rather than the lack of time!
The biggest problem with the Eircode system is the way in which it was set up. Those in charge refused to listen to the opinions of the main stakeholders, which ensured that the system was already dead in the water before it was launched. Whether these stakeholders were right or wrong is almost irrelevant, any system which did not get the buy-in of the major couriers, GPS and mapping providers should never have been implemented.
This is yet another exapmle of the sheltered public sector attempting to dictate what the free market should do. Another expensive disaster akin to the e-voting machines, with the tab being picked up by the taxpayer. But I guarantee not one person involved will lose their job, which should be the logical result of such gross incompetence.
Wasn’t Eircode developed by Capita? Who, last I checked, were a private sector body?
I suspect this is more a case of the sheltered private sector wrecking a project again, because the ability to actually deliver projects has been stripped from the public sector by years of hiring bans, and by decades of under investment in project & policy expertise.
Eircode was designed to suit An Post who lost the postcode tender. They insisted on the random design because they have no need to, nor intention of ever using it. Random design means it is useless for all their competitors.
A postcode was supposed to level the playing field or parcel deliveries, Eircode does the opposite and the punter will pay for resulting inefficiencies.
In the interest of clarity GetLost Eircodes are you the same person as Gary Delaney? The CEO of Loc8 Code? This website seems to link you both http://getlosteircodes.com/
No, nothing to do with Gary Delaney. Nothing to do with Loc8 Code.
just a real dedicated fan of Loc8!!??
Sockpuppet
Yes just a really dedicated fan of Loc8…merit where merit is due…
How are things in Autoaddress HQ? Any more designer Eircodes in the wrong place we need to know about?
No Gary, I don’t work for auto addreess;
I’m just sick of couriers who can’t find my house because they are too stupid/stubborn to use Eircode
Yes every courier in Ireland is thick and stupid…nothing to do with Eircode being thick, stupid and unusable?
No Gary,
Nightline – the most professional Irish courier company uses it.
The amateurish companies don’t – and when you order from Amazon you can’t choose your courier.
Instead of looking up the Eircode they insist on ringing me. You really need to be a cretin to think that’s a more efficient solution
Which Parcel Motel are Nightline using Eircode on. Because my local Nightline driver (west dublin) knows nothing about Eircode just like my postman…
Nightline do not use Eircode.
Nightline stated on RTE Primetime that An Post had used a protectionist stance to stall the introduction of a postcode and that Nightline itself would be happy to just get Eircode over the line and tweaking of it could be done then. However, tweaking Eircode is like trying to join the red and green Luas lines – they should not have been introduced without a connection in the first place and putting it right afterwards would cost millions!
Since launch, Nightline has not “used” Eircode. If you sign up for an account with them online they collect (harvest) your Eircode but when you enter it, there is no address prompting so it is clear they have not licensed the Eircode database.
If you enter their site as a visitor to book a collection, they do not seek an Eircode at all and in mine and others experience there is nothing implemented in the vehicles to allow the drivers use it.
Those who state that Nightline publish an Eircode for all their parcel motels, fail to comprehend that the very reason for a parcel motel is to get around the absence of a useful postcode and putting an Eircode on parcel motel is of no benefit to Nightline drivers or customers as they all know where they are already. That is why there is no effort by DCENR, Eircode or Autoaddress to quote Nightine as a user case.
To implement a postcode ia delivery service, the first step is to get their retailer clients using their service to implement the code themselves. Such would involve licensing the Eircode database and validating every enetered code against it as well as building the whole company sales/despatch/accounts system around it.
Whilst the Eircode License holder is able to repeatedly quote over 20 Eircode resellers, not once have they been able to quote 1 fully implemented and licensed user. – not even Nightline!
Part of the problem in selling Eircode as a solution is that no testing and validation of its claimed benefits/capability was ever carried out so as to be able to justify a user case or prove a cost benefit for a potential client.
Has anyone here actually used it on an envelope or with a courier? Be honest here
Using it with an address on an envelope or for a courier is always an option, but to be useful the Postman or the courier must be willing and able to make use of it. Neither are!
Yes.
I had a mailing to do of 50 envelopes – some of the recipients being friends . I used Eircode on a selection and not on the other – same destination areas obviously. The envelopes with the code received them 1-2 days ahead of the others.
I’ve used Eircode for online address forms for deliveries with Ireland – not a problem. Not the case for international forms – it is mostly NOT RECOGNISED. UK and US Zip Codes are fine, not Eircode.
I’ve offered my Eircode to a courier over the phone for a delivery….the response was ‘de whah? Dat ting’s a loadabollix. Nah, yer alrigh, we’ll find ye’.
Had the opposite experience with couriers before Christmas. I live in rural Wicklow, and courier deliveries usually involve the ‘left in the village, past the 2 churches, if you see a school you’ve gone too far, ah sure just leave it in the local shop’ type phone call. However I had a couple of calls from couriers before Christmas who asked if I knew my Eircode. Gave them the eircode and they found the house no problem.
So at least _some_ couriers are using it. So I’m going to include it when buying online from now on. Fair enough it was badly planned and designed but it’s better than nothing…
“I’ve offered my Eircode to a courier over the phone for a delivery….the response was ‘de whah? Dat ting’s a loadabollix. Nah, yer alrigh, we’ll find ye’.”
That’s it. That’s really all the problem is. Lots of people just don’t want to use it.
implementation of a postcode within a delivery organisation is more than just asking a driver to take it. It must firstly be captured and validated by the person providing the goods . To do this an IT solution must be built and access to the postcode database licensed. Then internal CRM & Dispatching software in the supplier must manage and handle the postcode. Then the delivery service must do all the same and if the postcode is useful introduce software to do route and load optimisation. The postcode must also provide a visual capability to help a driver manually load the van (1st in last out and grouped together). Finally, navigaton systems must be available to use the code especially offline, with no phone credit, no phone coverage and no internet access so it is reliable in all situations and no cost to the driver him/herself
The code itself must cover all delivery possibilities – not just the mathematical middle of An Post serviced buildings and road access points must be identifiable with the code when necessary. Eircode neither has any of this capability nor was it ever tested for it or any of it sought to be implemented.
It is for this reason that the FTAI has said categorically that Eircode is of no use to them and exactly why the Emergency services reps have stated that it has too many issues to be safely introduced into operations at this time.
Those who conceived and delivered Eircode were no more than back office transponsters who had no real world experience of delivering a publicly usable product which needed very specific capability to be used in the logistics or public safety industries.
It is for this reason, that Minister Alex White and his officials had to bend the facts many times on the public record to get it over the line and see €50 million of public money wasted on something that is worse than PPARS and eVoting because it was implemented even though its serious shortcomings were well flagged and understood!
>Dat ting’s a loadabollix. Nah, yer alrigh, we’ll find ye’.
yeah, my experience too.
A real pain in the hole, when you miss their call. Says more about the standard of couriers than it does about Eircode
https://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/01/13/code-of-dishonour/
Methinks you’re spoofing.
nope and won’t
I’ve attempted to use it on a couple of international deliveries — both times I had to amend the address to remove it, as the US delivery companies rejected the address as invalid.
The map system is superior to Google Maps imo and great especially if looking for a house in a large estate (even without an Eircode). It already has got me to my destination on a few occasions so, horses for courses I suppose, I can say I think it’s a good system.
Map system is provided by Ordnance Survey not by Eircode.
It would want to be better :)
“Whilst it is the case that Google maps can now support this feature, it is an absolute fact that Eircode cannot. ”
Bullshit. I have 14 apps on my mobile phone that use my space than the Eircode database would. It’s entirely feasible to have a copy of the entire Eircode database on any modern mobile phone., which obviously means Eircode can be used offline.
AlanP, my comment made no reference to “Space”
I made reference to the simple fact that to use Eircode you must first log on to the Eircode finder website and enter an Eircode before you can choose to navigate to it with Google maps. If you do not have an internet connection, you simply cannot use Eircode or Eircode finder no matter how many apps you have.
Switch to flight mode on your phone and try get Eircode Finder ;- it’s not possible and there is not other way to use Eircode and loading an Eircode database to your phone as you suggest is not something that you can do!
eircode sympathiser
It would be interesting to hear Gary Delaney’s views on what the future holds for Loc8 now that EirCode is in place.
We hear a lot on every Eircode post from him about how Loc8 is better and cheaper and in place ahead of Eircode.
Do you give up or do you keep flogging the dead horse?
Thank you for your question.
The Loc8 Code user base grows every month and the launch of our new version point8 app last week, which can convert an Eircode to a much more useful Loc8 Code will enhance that growth.
Given that Eircode has been championed by the Labour Party via Communications Ministery and given that their election prospects are not good, it is safe to say that those supporting Eircode are flogging a dead White Horse!
If it is not possible to store the entire Eircode database on a mobile device for offline use then how does your point8 application access the Eircode database to convert it to a Loc8 code if the mobile device is offline?
Access the Eircode Finder online, send direction to Point8 app, convert to Loc8code, then save to phonebook or save in Point8 app. Obviously because Eircode is online only you need to be online for the initial conversion but that’s an Eircode weakness not Point8.
as you know, unlike Eircode, people can generate and then share their own Loc8 Codes – an Eircode is not required. However, as a result of a letter put in everyone’s door people may have their Eircode near at hand so the new free point8 app allows them to do a once-off conversion so they can check and correct it and have it in a much more useful Loc8 Code form for future use.
This also ensures that people who cannot use Eircode when in places with no coverage or if their phone has no credit, can do so in the form of a Loc8 Code via a Garmin satnav or the free point8 app.
Effectively, the release of the new versions of the free point8 app last week, represents the start of a scrappage scheme for Eircode which is 2 years after launch with no user base even though it has Government (Labour party) backing and a €50 million spend. Loc8 Code now allows an Eircode to be traded-in and scrapped for something much more useful.
Just so the lovely people in Dublin could retain the Dublin codes. D4 is still D04. What does that tell you about its design
D4 is getting some fine flood defenses to protect their walk from ballsbridge to the aviva.
Yes, of course, densely populated city neighbourhoods containing important infrastructure (Landsdowne Road, route to Eastlink, DART, etc.) should receive flood defences.
Especially that working-class area in & around Ringsend which has long
suffered from flooding.
But of course, the way our discourse typically goes, they should get nothing more than the resident of a one-off suburban house in a rural area – practicality, fairness & economics be damned.
“I made reference to the simple fact that to use Eircode you must first log on to the Eircode finder website ”
Okay, I see where you’re confused. The website is not Eircode. Eircode is, fundamentally, the process of mapping the geographical coordinates of every dwelling in the state to a unique code. This results in a database of significant but not excessive size, which can fit on any modern mobile phone. As Eircode grows in popularity and uptake, if a need is perceived for Eircode access without internet access, it will be eminently possible to achieve this by preloading the database onto mobile devices.
aha,
so you are confirming that as I stated that you cannot navigate to an Eircode without an internet connection. (phone coverage or credit)
It is 2 years since Eircode was launched and since then many claims for it possible future capabilities have been made;- most of which have never been achieved.
As you will be aware, Loc8 Codes can be used offline since launch in 2010 – Garmins and the point8 app support offline use and no database loaded or remote is necessary to locate a Loc8 Code;- all the intelligence is in the code itself.
Eircode does not map every dwelling in the state, not even close. It only maps locations where An Post deliver to. Even major infrastructure such as the Corrib Gas plant in Mayo has no Eircode.
Of course it is possible to put an Eircode database into an app but at what cost for the end user, it won’t be free.
Labour see Eircode as a cash cow to milk the general public and private businesses…it’s a dead duck.
GetLostGary
You’ve exhausted your spin then?
Why don’t we base it on the number plate system?
Tallaght D24 xxx
Cork City C1 xxx
etc makes sense, everyone knows where it is easy to use
have you tried Loc8 Code Joanne. It’s been in use since 2010. It is used by the emergency services amongst others. Download the point8 app for free and have a look.
Have you tried paying for your advertising?
Why?
No one else uses it!
(BTW I tried it and it’s pants)
Saint Paul
Of all the sad, boring, lonely trolls and losers on this site you are in the highest echelon Gary.
Go away.
I work for an emergency service and we most certainly don’t use eircode. So what emergency services use it ??
@Westbrit
I would imagine that many have not come across Loc8, however it is a fact that it has been used by the HSE for emergency plans and planning since 2012. The NAS and the Fire service have Garmin devices supporting Loc8 Codes and these have been used in major emergency exercises very successfully.
Loc8 Codes are published on major emergency plans in parts of the country for designated access points, equipment standby points, traffic control points, Garda check and traffic management points, Electricity transformer stations, Rail Emergency Access points and many more. This has been so successful that it is continually expanding and Loc8 has been informed by HSE Emergency planning that it will continue in spite of the arrival of Eircode. Evidence of this was presented to the JCTC Oireachtas Committee in June last year. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/transportandcommunications/GDelaney_JCTC-in-conjunction-with_Presentation.pdf
In addition, Local Authorities and Irish Water Safety use Loc8 Codes on ring buoys and this too is planned for expansion.
Finally, Loc8 Code on Garmin Satnavs were tested and approved for use in Garda Vehicles by the Garda College in Templemore. I personally fitted the first of them and trained the Gardai.
I understand, that this is not what those behind Eircode want you to believe but none of these applications can be achieved by Eircode because Eircode is not the result of any consultation or testing with the broad range of emergency services requirements.
I am glad to hear that you are testing Eircode but saddened by the fact that 1. no testing was carried out before the design was committed to or that 2. the Emergency services were allocated no budget from DCENR to implement a postcode even though monies were made available to other Government agencies for the less important task of updating databases.
Most importantly, during testing, I would imagine that it will be identified that Eircode is vulnerable to error but most importantly is incapable of identifying other than postal property mathematical middles;- not sheds. workshops, stores, machinery garages etc etc where many accidents happen and where citizens have insurance, health and safety and mortgage responsibilities. Furthermore, if used, the same mathematical middles may well guide responders to the wrong building or the wrong road where there is no access. This is because Eircode does not take into account the need to identify property access points which is a major potential issue in rural areas as well as industrial locations in cities.
Finally, Eircode cannot assist when the event is not adjacent to an An Post served building. In designing a national postcode for the 21st century, it would have been wise to integrate flexibility for the widest breadth of requirements, whereas Eircode appears to have focused on mail delivery even though the postal service cannot and is not using it.
Public safety had the most to gain from a modern national postcode but, instead, it is the need that lost out most ;- it appears the citizen is always considered last or ignored completely!
Revenue uses Eircode.
So do I.
Then, why do I get letters from them with no Eircode on them? Bull!
sing it brother.
The obstinacy of those who think Eircodes can “be defeated” is embarrassing.
It’s causing me no end of grief to get a parcel delivered in Rural Ireland – why would you refuse to look up an address on your mobile instead of ringing for directions?
No signal maybe, no data connection, no satnav support…maybe even no fooking Eircode if your house is new…
GetLostGary
so when offline maps are available with Eircode you’ll crawl back under your rock?
Loc8 is laughably nsecure as you can make up an address.
Why does a postcode need to be secure?
to prevent fraud – it’s one of Eircode’s greatest benefits.
Only a fraudster would not welcome this.
Pray tell how does a dumb public random number prevent fraud? Please explain Eircode’s greatest benefit in action.
2 Questions:
1. If Eircode is all that is claimed of it – why does it need to be defended in letters to the IT.
2. How come no identified Eircode/DCENR/PA Consulting/Autoaddress representatives are turning out to defend it?
Because the money is already in the bank….our tax money in their bank…
Saint Paul
You know why you have too much time on your hands to post crap on websites Gary?
Because your business is failed. Go away
Put that first stone down. You’re double jobbing here with ever-decreasing levels of insouciance.
Saint Paul
Another member of the Trolletariat trying to shut down an alternative voice huh?
Declaring yourself a martyr, eh?
Saves the pope the paperwork I suppose.
I’m retiring Saint Paul now. He’s upset a few
Exactly … this stinks to the high heavens …As for this excuse …birthday gifts to my niece without a courier telephoning me to request turn-by-turn directions .. I know no one who has experienced this. Bet hey lets spend millions of taxpayers money to keep the niece happy.
I’m lost. I thought the animated GIF and allusions to Murphy would take me to Slab Murphy’s house and lands. Only half of it would have an EIRECODE of course.
But all of it would have a Loc8 code because Loc8 is an ALL Ireland address code :)
so what?
Well it could assist cross border emergency services such as Fire Brigade or Ambulance….one beautiful code for the whole country.
What’s not to like?
you really are deluded.
Good luck with your next business Gary
again what’s not to like about an all Ireland algorithm based smart postcode like Loc8?
I work for an emergency service and we don’t use Loc8 codes. Gardai don’t use it either. However we are testing eircode at the moment and hope to have it integrated into our CAD system soon
@ Westbrit how will Eircodes help you for RTAs? Mountaineering Accidents, Forestry Accidents? Swimming Accidents? Farming Accidents?
@westbrit see my reply to your earlier question.
It is clear that those who have political and regulatory responsibility have chosen to close their eyes and ears as to what professionals are actually doing on the ground. Unfortunately then Eircode contractors are misinformed and defend with blind and unprofessional loyalty not realising quality is of no interest to their masters. It is for that reason that we see fanatically crazed posts from them here and on other forums.
The reputations of those contractors are now badly undermined and their political protectors will leave them very exposed in the not too distant future.
Eircode will be a hot election issue underwritten by the C&AG report of September last which is uncharacteristically outspoken on the matter and the EU investigation which is only recently drawn to a conclusion after having to use diplomatic assistance to get the desired response from the Department of Communications and Minister White who has unashamedly denied that there were any problems at all.
ah Gary the only crazy deluded poster is your sock puppet.
I’m self employed and I’m absolutely sh1t sick of hassle with couriers for receiving parcels and sending them to my parents in the countryside (who are getting on in years).
When Eircode does gain acceptance (no thanks to your campaign of misinformation) it will make things easier. The UK Postcode didn’t happen overnight .
When Eircodes are integrated into Here Maps app etc will you finally fold up your tent and close down your social media accounts?
You’re a selfish, deluded clown
Bizarre that OpenPostcode and OP Grid was on no ones radar. Seems the most accurate (~1m^2 with 8 characters, 6×4 m^2 at 7, and have have 25 characters), is algorithm rather than structure based, and is free.
It’s needed for delivering parcels or guiding emergency services, not GPS guided munitions. The resolving ability of consumer/business class GPS is between 6-10m which is sufficient. No point in having a more accurate code than that.
Amazing you can’t say a bad word about Loc8 but Opencode is not to your liking. Are you sure you’re not Gary’s sockpuppet?
Loc8 is tried and tested not someones nixer…
For a postcode, you don;t need that level of detail & you certainly don’t want 25 characters
From a city-dwellers perspective, does it, outside of DUblin where it’s kept the old D1-D24 postcodes, work as handily in like Cork and Galway?
Like I live in E2 in London – at this stage if someone gives me an E1 or E2 postcode of a pub we’re meetiing in I can guess whereabouts it is to within a few blocks based on the code of my flat. It’s consecutive like. Isn’t that all lost by having them all kind of random and secret unless you live in Dublin? Would it have killed them to come up with a C1, C2, G1, G2 prefixes for the other cities?
The first three letters of the Eircode are a routing key & so are not completely random.
They are not quite at the level of granularity you talk about – like what you might be able to do in Dublin or the centre of London. Cork City South is T12 & Cork City North is T23.
Outside of the direct central London it isn’t exactly as easy as you describe – N1 has a population of about 84000 and Croydon (CR0) is 146000.
In fact, for better and for worse, it appears that the Eircode system is very similar to the UK system and has similar strengths and weakenesses.
That is NOT at all the case.
The only similarity is that the UK postcode is a database system.
However, Eircode has none of the advantages that the UK postcode offers in spite of it being designed 50 years later:
1. UK Postcode offers visual intelligence to any human – it can be learned and iterated
2. The UK postcode has the quality of adjacency – so adjacent properties have similar codes and a human can identify if they are close to an intended postcode.
3. If you make a mistake with the local element of a UK postcode you are likely to still end up very close by.
4. The UK postcode can be validated within itself.
5. If you are trying to get to a non postal destination, there is still a valid UK postcode for that which can be used to navigate to the nearest street.
6. The UK postcode is used in conjunction with and complimentary to a useful and working property addressing system.
7. Nowadays the street level UK postcode is available for free – with a cost only for the delivery point (property number) database
8. the UK postcode has inherent localities which can be used to communicate a general location.
9…. and more
Eircode has none of these advantages and I myself highlighted this in my appearance in front of the Oireachtas Transport and Communications committee – you can read my report on the Oireachtas website here:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/transportandcommunications/GDelaney_JCTC-in-conjunction-with_Presentation.pdf
The UK postcode is not perfect and has many limitations but it is a thousand times superior to Eircode even though it was developed in a pre ICT age!
Final point – the Eircode Routing Key is mostly random and doesn’t even bear a relationship to existing An Post internal systems which we were told it matched: http://oi65.tinypic.com/2cz3mv7.jpg
You have a point on 2) but actually in practice, it doesn’t help much – a postman may disagree but taxi drivers never use it. I spoke to a couple of taximen about it & even after doing a knowledge, trying to use the second part of the postcode was too tricky.
It also makes the system less robust to changes.
On 4) I don’t know the truth. Eircode claim to have some internal validation, you claim otherwise.
On 5), 6) and 7) this is not about the system itself but about how it will be bedded in over the next 5-10 years.
@classter
just to note re your comments on points 5,6,7
In a reply to the PAC, the DCENR has clarified that solving Ireland’s address problem is not for DCENR and it would be too difficult anyhow. So you can take it that Ireland will not be getting a proper address system and Eircode is considered the antidote to that. Hwoever, I content that iyt will actually make things worse – see http://www.loc8.ie/news Postcodes- Wrong Way Turn Back!
As it is the case that the Eircode database ECAD contains all that is in Gerodirectory and is linked to it for update (no updates allowed except through Geodirectory) if ECAD were to be offered for free in any form, the Geodirectory’s business and revenues would be severely undermined. I am not aware of any part of the current agreement with An Post that allows that to happen.
As for point 2, yes one of the limitation of the UK postcode is that it has to change with population/mail density changes. The design document for Eircode allows for changes and given the representations already being made by Local representatives, this facility may well be used!
Jaysus, Gary. Get over yourself, would ya? You’re a grown-man acting like a cry-baby on an internet blog because no one picked your idea. If you really thought the tendering process was unfair, you could have sued.
Stop embarrassing yourself before you shoot your bitter mouth off and libel someone. And take your fan with you.
I’m in total agreement with Kieran NYC here
I’ve never witnessed such an idiotic display
Labour boyos getting upset…
and their blushirt mates.