‘By Law, Nobody Could Help Us’

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How Clare Daly’s bill to allow for abortions in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities was voted down in February 2015

Yesterday Ellen Coyne, in the Ireland edition of The Times, reported that a consultant in Ireland advised mother-of-two Sarah – who had a nonviable pregnancy – to go to England for the first part of a termination and then return home and fake a miscarriage.

Sarah, and her partner, Michael (not real names) went to England with the intention of following the consultant’s advice.

However, upon arrival, the doctors told the couple they would have to contact Sarah’s consultant in Ireland to make sure she would induce Sarah and deliver the baby.

The doctors later informed the couple the consultant in Ireland told them she wouldn’t agree to treat Sarah.

The couple came back to Ireland and then returned to England for the full procedure. Their son was delivered at 24 weeks.

Sarah and Michael had to “smuggle his coffin on the ferry” home while Sarah later became seriously ill with sepsis.

Further to this, Ms Coyne reports today from Michael’s perspective and, specifically, about how Irish doctors are legally restricted from referring couples to hospitals in the UK.

Michael told Ms Coyne:

Everyone was sort of saying it, but saying nothing at the same time. We couldn’t get advice on that from Irish hospitals because they’re bound by Irish law, they explained that to us. We’d been told in roundabout ways about the options, and really the only option we had was to travel for a termination.”

“We had absolutely zero support here in Ireland. There was some people we could talk to, but essentially, by law, nobody could help us.”

“…It was very traumatic to think that we were essentially in three different hospitals over the space of a few weeks and it ended with Sarah potentially losing her life. This problem could have been dealt with so much further back.”

“That was very, very hard to take. It was worrying times for ourselves here. My future that was staring at me was being a single dad to the kids. Not alone losing Sarah, that would be agonising enough but just after that, the kids losing their mother.”

“…We could see that we were failed by the system. Ireland just doesn’t want to know. The main concern I have would be that Britain one day says, well, we don’t want to know either.”

‘After the diagnosis, the hospital turfed us out on the street’ (Ellen Coyne, The Times)

Pregnant mother’s treatment was ‘inhuman’ (The Times)

Previously: ‘I Was Told To Fake A Miscarriage’

Was It Really Unconstitutional?

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96 thoughts on “‘By Law, Nobody Could Help Us’

  1. newsjustin

    “Ireland just doesn’t want to know.”

    It’s not that Ireland doesn’t want to know. It’s that Ireland’s laws say that what you want to do – abort your baby – is illegal.

    If one travels to other jurisdictions to avoid Irish laws, one shouldn’t be surprised that it isn’t plain-sailing, unfortunately.

    1. fluffybiscuits

      Killing a baby is illegal but terminating a clump of cells should not be. Again conflating the lines to suit your own agenda newsjustin is not really that clever as it exposes your arguments as weak….

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          When people just decide to refer to their foetus as a baby. There is no scientific definition of baby, just FYI. Baby is purely an emotive term.

        2. Nigel

          What are we even talking about? Baby? Bunch of cells? We’re not at that point. We’re not anywhere near that point. We’re still talking about having a say in the medical treatment of women whose babies or bunches of cells are dead, dying or have little to no chance of surviving outside the womb. THAT’S what we’re happily and merrily debating about. That’s what people feel the need to dictate the terms of. In the far of distant future we may grapple with the problem of women who get pregnant as a result of abuse and rape and what options we’re willing to graciously and benevolently grant them. So yay for people who feel they have a say in medical problems of this type! Save us from women who want choices in those situations! Babies? Cells? THAT”S WHAT”S IMPORTANT!

      1. newsjustin

        Fluffy ticks me off for referring to this person’s son who they transported home to Ireland as a baby, and in the same breath thinks he’s right to call him a bunch of cells. I’d wager most people would refer to this 24 week old foetus as a baby.

          1. newsjustin

            Of course it is. It clearly possible, even easy, to abort a pregnancy at any stage. The only thing stopping us is that most people value other humans and respect other human’s, even very small human’s, right to exist.

            It’s the same with the crime of murder of the death penalty. Nothing stopping society from sanctioning it except, in most countries, our shared respect for human life.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            “The only thing stopping us is that most people value other humans and respect other human’s, even very small human’s, right to exist.”

            Except that it isn’t a human, it’s a *potential* human. An actual human should have more rights than a potential one. That’s just logical. If we’re going to make a decision on whether or not to allow women full control over their own bodies, their rights are more important than you *feeling like* the foetus growing inside them which might cause them great harm is a human. Your position is based on religious morality. Your opponents’ is based in logic and empathy. There’s one clear winner there.

          3. newsjustin

            Moyest. You opinion that a human foetus isn’t a human is based on far less than my assertion that a human foetus is a human.

          4. MoyestWithExcitement

            It’s not an opinion. There is a reason the word foetus exists. I’m not surprised you want to dismiss actual science and reality though.

          5. Rowsdower

            “It’s not an opinion. There is a reason the word foetus exists. I’m not surprised you want to dismiss actual science and reality though.”

            Fetus is a scientific turn for a human in a stage of development, its not a scientific term a group of cells that might one day become human.

          6. MoyestWithExcitement

            “a human in a stage of development”

            Right. *Potential* human.

            “its not a scientific term a group of cells that might one day become human.”

            Unless science has somehow stopped miscarriages, you are wrong.

          7. Rowsdower

            “Right. *Potential* human.”

            No, we just refer to that as a human.

            “Unless science has somehow stopped miscarriages, you are wrong.”

            Are you trying to imply that having fatal conditions now exclude you from being human?

          8. MoyestWithExcitement

            “No, we just refer to that as a human.”

            Sure, *you* might. People in the real world don’t actually do that though.

            “Are you trying to imply that having fatal conditions now exclude you from being human?”

            ……sure……

          9. Rowsdower

            You were the one unjustly feeling smug and superior earlier when you started talking about how your position was based on science and morality. Now you’re confronted with the actual science and its “people in the real world”.

            Stop throwing around terms like “Potential” human and trying to take the high ground based on scientific reasoning, your opinions aren’t scientific.

          10. MoyestWithExcitement

            “You were the one unjustly feeling smug and superior earlier”

            Well that was easy.

            “about how your position was based on science and morality.”

            I said the pro life people’s position was based on morality. Maybe read the posts before emotionally reacting to them.

            “Stop throwing around terms like “Potential” human and trying to take the high ground based on scientific reasoning, your opinions aren’t scientific.”

            A developing foetus is not guaranteed to come to term as a fully developed human being. Thus, it is *potential*. That’s not an opinion. Good lad.

          11. Rowsdower

            “A developing foetus is not guaranteed to come to term as a fully developed human being. Thus, it is *potential*. That’s not an opinion. Good lad.”

            Yet again, basic science fails you. The fetus is a stage of human life, not a precursor to it. Your opinions on what makes someone worthy enough to be referred to as human have a very sinister eugenics undertone in them.

            Not every child is guaranteed to become a fully developed human. When you hear of sick children dieing do you pause and think “Oh, thank god it was terminated before it was a fully developed human, that was almost a situation worthy of my empathy!”

          12. MoyestWithExcitement

            The life is human, it is not a human being. Once again, you’re displaying a hilarious lack of understanding of basic scientific terms. You can call reality an opinion if it makes you feel better about the fact that there is no rationale or science behind your position if you like. It won’t change reality.

          13. Rowsdower

            “The life is human, it is not a human being. Once again, you’re displaying a hilarious lack of understanding of basic scientific terms. You can call reality an opinion if it makes you feel better about the fact that there is no rationale or science behind your position if you like. It won’t change reality.”

            The life is human, but not a human being. That’s what was said to me by someone who claimed that my lack of understanding of basic scientific terms was hilarious. The lack of self awareness would be amusing if I didn’t know you were eligible to vote.

            I really don’t need to justify my “opinions” to you anymore given that you just agreed with them in your first sentence and then claimed there was no scientific rationale behind my position.

            The science is overwhelming and conclusive. Your bizarre and confused ranting is trivial.

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      “We could see that we were failed by the system. Ireland just doesn’t……”

      He’s talking about the system, which is just human decisions written down on paper. Ireland has decided it doesn’t want to know about nuanced problems when it comes to abortion. It’s much easier to say ‘no, you can’t do that’ and then turn a blind eye when they get the boat because opponents of abortion don’t actually care about people, they care about feeling like other people are adhering to their personal principles, or, to put in another way, being in charge. But. If the pictures of students up and down the country queuing to register to vote is anything to go by, it won’t be illegal for much longer. We’ll hopefully be taking our country back from selfish mé féiners soon enough.

      1. Rowsdower

        What candidates running for office have publicly stated their intention to reform abortion laws?

        Is there any likely to be in government?

    3. Nigel

      And its going to keep happening until enough people get angry about it to change it. Because it is the occurrence of episodes like this that will turn people against our current laws, sooner or later. Later just means more suffering, that’s all. Imagine. A bit more humanity and a bit less savage draconian fundamentalism would have lead to fewer stories like this and lesser revulsion and horror. But there you go. it’s the law. Shrug. Unfortunate. Killing babies. Not plain sailing. Shouldn’t be surprised. Because surprise is the over-riding emotion from this story.

    4. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

      You couldn’t get married as a gay couple in Ireland until recently. Funny thing about laws is that they change, often in the face of changing public opinion, the majority of which supports women in this situation getting abortions.

      “But laws” is a pathetic argument.

  2. meadowlark

    It’s sickening, this should have been dealt with years ago. Women have died, been treated like literal incubators, been forced to carry a child against their will only for nothing to have changed and to have something which affects them and their health so directly used as fodder for the election. It’s a disgrace.

  3. kellma

    It is for this very reason that I will not be voting for this government. Whether you agree with abortion or not is irrelevant. The fact that this government and many before just keep kicking the can down the road so they don’t have to deal with it, the fact that they think it’s acceptable to take a hear no evil, see no evil approach is just not washing anymore. Like a child clamping their hands over their ears and singing “la la la” when they don’t want to confront a reality…. It speaks more about the type of politicians they are that goes far beyond this issue and I just don’t want someone like that running my country for me.

    1. MoyestWithExcitement

      “The fact that this government and many before just keep kicking the can down the road so they don’t have to deal with it”

      Precisely. They have zero morals. They’re purely motivated by their own personal career goals.

      1. Steve

        I’d have to disagree with ye there. You may argue that it took a horrific case of savita for the protection of life act to pass , and you would be right. But this government did pass it. FF didn’t.

        And it did save the lives of 26 women in 2014. I know i doesn’t take away from the act that the 8th, which IMO needs a referendum within the next 6 months, is still in the constitution – but it’s a start.

        http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/26-terminations-under-protection-of-life-during-pregnancy-bill-1.2266839

        Sorry can’t find figures for 2015.

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          Mate, I said FG and Lab have no morals. Telling me that FF also have no morals doesn’t mean that FG/Lab do.

        2. meadowlark

          No, what the current government did was bring in legislation that was as effective as wrapping toilet paper around an arterial wound. Because what they should have done if they wanted to effect REAL change is have a referendum on abortion when they were having the marriage ref, rather than the pointless waste of money that was changing the presidential age. And until they stop using women, with lives and feelings and brains, who are capable of deciding for themselves, as a means of political point scoring nothing much will change.

          You cannot defend a government that allowed a woman who was no longer alive to be used as an incubator for a 15 weeks old foetus. Its disgusting.

          1. Steve

            To clarify I want the 8th repealed and full choice for women. I never said the Act was perfect – far from it. I know it isn’t. FF were in government for 16 of the 21 years between the X-case and the passing of the Act and they did nothing. FG/lab did…and it cost them TDs under the whip. Which , goes against the whole concept of party leaders only looking out for their own backsides, IMO.

            The current situation is unjust – I agree. But we could have had another 26 savitas, in the extreme case, in 2014 if it wasn’t for the 2013 act. That’s something to give the gov credit for.

            That’s all I’m saying.

          2. meadowlark

            I do see that Steve. But my point is that, if they wanted to effect any kind of real change they had the power to do it. And they chose a rushed patch job that has helped next to no women at all (I do note the figures you provided) and led to the missY case and the woman on life support. They could have comprehensively changed the law to reflect a modern Ireland but they chose not to, and have allowed it to become a carrot to dangle in front of the electorate (they’re not alone in this). This is not something they should be lauded or congratulated for.

          3. Annie

            “as effective as wrapping toilet paper around an arterial wound”

            Superb. And disgusting is the tip of the iceberg. Well said, meadowlark.

          4. Nice Anne {Dammit}

            The minute the hosts body started to decompose, the bunch of cells became non-viable.

            According to the ruling judge (keeping her on life support for a non-viable foetus) “would subject her father, her partner and her young children to unimaginable distress in a futile exercise which commenced only because of fears held by treating medical specialists of potential legal consequences”

            …. but you knew that didn’t you?
            http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ireland-pregnant-mothers-life-support-machine-be-switched-off-after-landmark-ruling-1481013

      2. kellma

        For me, Politicians are mostly window-dressing. I mean how can a school teacher with little to no business acumen have a clue about economics or the financial complexities behind running a country? They can’t and that is why, in many aspects, it’s the civil servants that are running this country and if you think otherwise, you are a little naive. And that is fine. Being realistic, how could it be any other way? These people float in and out for a few years here and there depending on how the vote goes. But where a politician can (and should) be making their mark is on key social and societal issues. This is a perfect example, of where this is simply not being done. It’s all about staying on the train as long as possible and not really caring where the train is going.

  4. Zuppy International

    There is another a option available in these circumstances (Fatal Foetal Abnormalities): let nature take its course and allow the “clump of cells” [sic] to die with dignity in their own time rather than being scraped out of the mother’s womb.

    Will be better for all concerned in the physical, psychological and spiritual realms.

      1. Zuppy International

        No, I would be allowing here to come to terms with the death of her child in a natural holistic way.

        Insisting that she must go through an invasive surgical procedure to remove the “clump of cells” [sic] and propagandising her so she thinks that this is the brave option is the real and present danger to any woman’s self-autonomy as organised by a powerful medical-industrial-complex that want to install privatised, for-profit, abortion mills.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Well, firstly that you’d gleefully characterise the gut wrenching decision to have an abortion as foetal murder and slaughter. Then there’s your desire for foeti to die in a way you find personally more palatable and link it to spiritualism, which, by the way, only exists in your own head. You’re showing a complete lack of human empathy, ergo, you’re a psycho.

          1. Zuppy International

            Nothing to do with my moral smugness at all, this is basic stuff. We should respect and cherish motherhood, not destroy it for economic expediency.

          2. meadowlark

            No one is forcing any woman with FFA to *have* an abortion. The fact that is not an option for women in this country is the issue. There are in fact centres in Ireland, hospices for sick babies, which do allow for what you suggest. There are not enough of them. There are not nearly enough supports in place for women in that situation, whether they choose to abort or not.

          3. Lorcan Nagle

            It’s nothing to do with expediency and everything to do with the woman’s health. Studies have shown that the vast majority of women who have abortions don’t regret them; that once a woman decides to have an abortion she begins to feel better psychologically, and there are direct correlations between lack of abortion access and depression, anxiety and suicide attempts by pregnant women.

            So no, you’re not respecting and cherishing motherhood, you’re destroying women’s lives and health for no good reason at all.

            http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/abortion/mental-health.pdf
            http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/corporate/ICCP2010.pdf
            http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC1668796/pdf/bmj00109-0008.pdf

          4. meadowlark

            Great comment Lorcan

            I just have to point something out here as well.

            I had an abortion when I was 18 because of FFA. I was able to move on with my life because I had made the choice myself, though it was not easy, and I could understand that the child I was aborting was effectively already dead.

            When my daughter was born, however, she was seriously ill, and was taken to NICU almost immediately after her birth and kept in an incubator. This had a much greater emotional impact on me than the abortion did because my body had gone through the emotional and hormonal upheaval if labour and birth, and yet there was no child to hold, feed and care for.

            The difference is huge.

        1. Nessy

          “would be allowing here to come to terms with the death of her child in a natural holistic way.”

          Allowing a woman to carry a dead foetus full term is barbaric.

          I suppose if you were born with a Foetus in fetu (dead parasitic twin) you would refuse a potentially life saving operation to remove your dead twin foetus which is rotting inside you, or would you rather live “full term” in an holistic way and allow your dead rotting baby brother or sister rotting inside you to slowly give you septicaemia and blood poisoning until you potentially die a painful death…

        2. Wait For It

          Who’s insisting? No one’s saying that abortion will suddenly become mandatory, just that it should be an option available for the relevant woman. If she doesn’t want one, no one will make her.

        3. kellma

          Who is “insisting” here? She is now been given a choice. She may still choose to take the route you prefer. Or she may choose to take the route she and her partner prefer…

        4. Rich Uncle Skeleton

          Are you also against antibiotics? Or any type of medicine? Just let the bacteria follow its natural path and consume the host.

    1. Nigel

      JESUS FUPPING CHRIST YOU GIVE THE HUMAN BEING WHO HAS TO CARRY THE DEAD OR DYING BABY THE FUPPING CHOICE BECAUSE YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING TOO WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

    2. meadowlark

      Well no, because if you were to ask the woman carrying the child her opinion she might say that she doesn’t want to endure the pain and stress of labour only to have the child die after minute/hours. She might rather have her womb scraped (which by the way is what some methods of contraception do) than deal with the pain and emotional turmoil of burying a new born, of carrying a child that cannot live and knowing it.

    3. Cup of tea anyone?

      How is it better in physical or psychological realms. pregnancy puts a mother at risk.
      There are many things that can go wrong during a pregnancy, not to mention all the irreversable changes to the woman’s body during the process. For what? So that something that was never alive and never will be can be around an extra few months?
      And psychological it is terrible. Imagine all the times they will be asked is it a boy or a girl? Or people asking if you are excited and how the planning is going only to turn around and say that it is already dead.

      You opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

    4. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

      Sure. It would be great if women had the choice of either option (nice use of “scrap” there btw…), you know, like adults.

  5. Eamonn Clancy

    Abortion for featal abnormality is a must but so is protection against pregnancy, be it the pill, the morning after pill or the coil, women need to raise their game on this.

    1. Small Wonder

      Women need to raise their game and stop getting pregnant with foetuses that have fatal abnormalities? So just get pregnant with healthy babies, then?
      Genius.

    2. Annie

      There are many worrying comments on this thread but this one really takes the archaic biscuit. Ireland, ladies and gentlemen. I feel sick now.

        1. Annie

          Every time I think *oooh, progress* this kind of attitude reappears like the recurring nightmare you can’t shake off. It’s exhausting, sometimes.

          1. Nice Anne {Dammit}

            ((hugs)) don’t let the bastards grind you down.

            Just in case the facists at BS change my plainly written words ….. I said B’ st@rdz

    3. Nice Anne {Dammit}

      I COMPLETELTY agree but I don’t think you are taking the “blame” thing far enough up the line ….

      Women need to use more protection or not conceive foetuses with non-viable conditions….
      AND
      MEN need to use even more protection and not put their special man stuff in women who are likely to have foetuses with non-viable conditions…..
      AND
      Women likely to conceive foetuses with non-viable conditions need to walk about with a blue light flashing over their heads to make it easier for the men who want to share their Satins seed to spot them
      AND
      Men who are likely to contribute to non-viable foetuses need to walk about with special black lights flashing over them so everyone knows not to play naked sweaty games with them….

      There. Job done. Problem solved.

      1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

        Really, women should start off by trying not to be so goddamn sexy

          1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            It’s as dumb as the Church in ElSalvador telling women (because it’s always us right?) that they just simply shouldn’t have babies for 2 years because of Zika. In a country with no birth control, no abortion because some book written 2k years ago, that was rewritten and rewritten and bits changed and you can believe this bit but not the Old Testament, cause sure that’s mad isn’t it Ted but the new bit is nice, except for the not judging bit because we like that bit, we enjoy that bit, we like telling people what to do because we have nothing better to do then rubbing away at our tiny bloody dick stubs every night dreaming of how to boss people around.

            Idiotic, stale, male voices on something that is none of their business. Hypocrites the lot of em.

          2. Lorcan Nagle

            But Dón, we all know nobody has sex for any reason other than procreation. And if there wa san accidental pregnancy in that timeframe sure we can probably train women to recognise that as a legitimate rape and just shut the whole thing down.

  6. Niallo

    Mucksavages being mucksavages to each other, as our more enlightened neighbours slowly shake their heads in disbelief…

  7. Peter Dempsey

    I didn’t agree with keeping a woman on life support in the hope of keeping the foetus alive.

    Most pro-life people were against it because it past the natural means of medical care i.e. you do the utmost to preserve both lives but don’t go above and beyond normal procedures.

    I think the doctors involved knew that as well but somebody was on a point-scoring mission.

    1. Nigel

      Pro-lifers insisted on a set of laws so inflexible and draconian it seemed like the thing to do to avoid prosecution. That’s not point-scoring. That’s trying to stay out of jail.

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