Luas Across City

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This lunchtime.

A notice of the Luas strike; Luas drivers and members of SIPTU on the picket line at Sandyford Luas Depot in Dublin; and commuters walking along the green Luas line tracks towards the city centre.

Meanwhile…

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From the February edition of SIPTU’s Liberty magazine.

Glenn Fitzpatrick tweetz:

What do Luas drivers have to say about the dispute? Hear it from a primary source, not consumer media.

Liberty

Previously: Strike That

120 thoughts on “Luas Across City

  1. Daddy Wilson

    “Hear it from a primary source, not consumer media.”

    Yeah because Siptu magazine will show you a completely unbiased viewpoint.

    1. Colm

      Still though, it is a primary source. Unless those people in the photo are mannequins or actors, that’s a primary source. And I imagine that as drivers in the dispute, yes you could call their viewpoint biased. But that’s what a viewpoint is. You can claim to “see things from both sides”, but ultimately you make up your mind and reach a viewpoint. You may not agree with them but it’s still important to hear their side because we can get ‘union official fatigue’ and not listen. I would imagine the big problem for drivers with frozen pay or tiny increments is that the rate of inflation – specific to them or some of them, rents, car insurance, shitty little taxes, healthcare, education – is high whereas the overall average is only 1% but that’s kept low by falling interest rates.
      Problem now is that because the dispute was so bitter and the worker’s initial demands (or the way they were portrayed) were so ludicrous they lost the PR battle immediately. So there;s going to have to be a big loser and a slightly less big loser at the end of dispute.

    2. Medium Sized C

      “Primary Source” doesn’t mean unbiased.
      And the point of that sentence is that consumer media is biased against the drivers.
      One might expect that SIPTU would be biased towards the workers they represent.
      I mean that is the entire point of SIPTU.

      1. Daddy Wilson

        Sorry guys, still not a primary source.
        I suggest you look up the definition.

        Medium, yes I understand the point. Print media is biased against the drivers. Of course it is.
        But my point is this is also biased, so no more a valid source than the sun or the mail

        1. fmong

          Daddy, baby, that is 1st person quotation from the people in the story, the only way the source could be more primary is if they drilled into their skulls and pulled the thoughts out from their brains

        2. Clampers Outside!

          No, the poster says it’s a Primary Source of “what the Luas drivers have to say”

          Primary Source being Theo and David.

          Both are Luas workers, so you can’t get any more primary / original than that surely?

        3. Mark Dennehy

          Actually, he’s right, the siptu newsletter is not a primary source, the luas drivers are.
          In the same way that the Irish Times is not a primary source, the executives sitting on the board of transdev are.

          Since we can’t waterboard either of the primary sources ourselves, we have to rely on the secondary sources, those who interviewed the primary sources and reported portions of what they had to say and framed those portions in context.

          However, you’d be pretty unwise to rely on a single secondary source, so having the siptu source is a long way from worthless…

          1. Mark Dennehy

            That link says the opposite of what you think it says.

            The person who interviewed the luas drivers? Their recordings of that interview would be a primary source. But that’s not what we’re reading. We’re reading portions of a transcript with context and commentary. The article is reporting on the primary source, extracting what it thinks is worth reporting, framing it in context. That makes it a secondary source. Us talking about it on the intertubes is neither.

  2. Supercrazyprices

    It’s refreshing to hear the stories of workers instead of all the snide comments from people who are in professional jobs and supposedly ‘educated’. (Although accountancy isn’t an education. It’s more of a trade really).

    1. BlahBlah

      Ya coz we’re all accountants. The lads in the articles clearly are not. First guy says they aren’t earning 42000 second guy says he earns 35000 plus a 6500 bonus. 41500.

      I dont get any bonus and I have to press more buttons than forward and backwards.

        1. Mani

          Why should anyone care that you often order more takeaway than you need so that your neighbours think you have company over?

      1. Mark Dennehy

        “I dont get any bonus and I have to press more buttons than forward and backwards.”

        If you push any of your buttons wrong, will you drive 50 tons of tram over someone or through their car?
        Do people regularly abuse you (to the point of stabbings) as you push those buttons?
        While you push those buttons, are you surrounded by junkies and drunks who are not the fun, smiley type of junkies and drunks?

        I mean, I push more buttons than a luas driver too, but nobody gets smeared into twenty feet of screaming gurgling strawberry jam if I mistype, and if anyone around me is drunk in the office, it’s generally at the office party…

        Oh, and I’d get more than 5 days off to mourn if my wife or child died.
        Kinda hard to argue with a lot of their demands to be honest, especially when you start seeing things like that on the list.

        (And by the by, “I don’t have that” is not an argument against others having something, it’s an argument for you getting that thing, because the world is *actually* not a zero sum game).

        1. Keith

          That may all very well be true. No reason to doubt it, but people don’t get paid by some sort of consensus or popular vote – the market (assuming it is not being artifically altered in some way) decides.

          Unions try to increase the wages of its members by, ironically enough, by restricting the supply of people that can do the job.

          Education is often a barrier to entry that reduces the supply also. Otherwise, we would all be hospital consultants.

          Apologies for the amateur economics, but it is a simple supply and demand issue. There are plenty of people who can become Luas drivers so they will be paid commensurate with that supply.

          1. Mark Dennehy

            See, you’re arguing that the free market sets wages, and the rest of us are all bemoaning the fact that life is getting harder for ordinary people because earning a living wage is getting harder (while a handful are off living on yachts to avoid taxes and holding an incredibly disproportionate amount of the available wealth).

            Which means this isn’t point and counterpoint so much as it is apples and the 1957 bolivian world cup soccer team.

            Also, unions are supposed to increase the living standards of their members, that’s not a bad thing. The alternative was fairly well documented in Dickins and while we might all enjoy the Muppets Christmas Carol, I don’t think anyone actually wants to *be* Bob Cratchit. And that’s pretty much the only role you’d get; the role of “has everything needed for a comfortable life” is already filled…

          2. Keith

            > the rest of us are all bemoaning the fact that life is getting harder for ordinary people because earning a living wage

            Fair enough, but I am sure and we are actually, all better off now than we were 20/30 years ago.

            I also think that, at least in public opinion, it appears that the Luas drivers got a fair deal from the LRC. That is why public opinion is actually with the company and not the drivers.

            The same situation does not exist for example with the Tesco workers.

            In short, I think people are backing the wrong horse if they are using the Luas drivers as the last stand against capitalism.

            > unions are supposed to increase the living standards of their members, that’s not a bad thing

            Yes it is, but with that argument, why aren’t they earning 100k a year. Sure, it might cost 20 euro to get out to Sandyford but what the harm.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Fair enough, but I am sure and we are actually, all better off now than we were 20/30 years ago”

            We’re worse off than we were 10 years ago. Profits are up and wages are down. That is an unsustainable trend. It’s also unethical. Aren’t business owners supposed to get the last to get paid? That, among other reasons, is why trickle down/supply side economics doesn’t make sense.

            “I also think that, at least in public opinion, it appears that the Luas drivers got a fair deal from the LRC. That is why public opinion is actually with the company and not the drivers.”

            Why is the publics opinion relevant? Also, that deal included taking money away from new employees. Is that fair? Did the Transdev management volunteer to take pay cuts to find the money they needed? Why must the money be taken from the bottom? I thought it trickles down from the top?

            “why aren’t they earning 100k a year. Sure, it might cost 20 euro to get out to Sandyford but what the harm.”

            Because that would be ridiculous and unworkable. Sure why not campaign for them to earn €100 a year if we’re opening that door?

          4. Keith

            I was not opening that door, I was being facetious. I was hoping the twenty euro fare would of made that clear so apologies if it didn’t.

            > is why trickle down/supply side economics doesn’t make sense.
            Well, I wasn’t advocating any position on supply side economics. I was simply saying that, all other things being equal, Luas drivers are subject to the same supply and demand forces that we are all under.

            If I have trained for the last 15 years to become a hospital consultant (I didn’t), I could expect a pretty decent salary. If I trained for three months to become a Luas driver, I should expect the same amount.

            Either way, the wages will be determined by the supply of Luas drivers out there versus the amount of Luas drivers we need. One of the functions of a union is to restrict the supply of labour to drive up the wages.

            > Why is the publics opinion relevant?
            I should probably of said, “in my opinion”, since that was what I was stating. And yes, it is of no relevance, or at least, of the same relevance of any comment on broadsheet.

          5. MoyestWithExcitement

            “I was simply saying that, all other things being equal, Luas drivers are subject to the same supply and demand forces that we are all under.”

            OK. I mean, do you think there’s some sort of indisputable mathematical formula for working out what a persons wage should be?

            “If I have trained for the last 15 years to become a hospital consultant (I didn’t), I could expect a pretty decent salary.”

            So pay is related to length of training time? Didn’t you just say it was supply and demand? What if I spent 15 years studying philosophy? Am I entitled to a high paying job?

            “One of the functions of a union is to restrict the supply of labour to drive up the wages.”

            No it isn’t.

          6. Keith

            > OK. I mean, do you think there’s some sort of indisputable mathematical formula for working out what a persons wage should be?

            Listen, you may disagree which is fair enough, but I think I have been pretty clear. The market – via supply and demand – decides what your wages will be.

            > What if I spent 15 years studying philosophy? Am I entitled to a high paying job?

            Again, the market. The supply of hospital consultants is small, compared to the demand for them. This drives up the price/salary. One reason the supply is small is the length of time to become one.

            The philosopher could spend 105 years doing it, but if there isn’t anyone willing to pay for them. That is, there might be a supply, just no demand. Obviously, there are many reasons for studying philosophy have nothing to do with money or a career.

            > “One of the functions of a union is to restrict the supply of labour to drive up the wages.”
            > No it isn’t.

            Well, I just disagree with you there. Btw, it’s not like I came up with it or anything (iirc, it came from this book I read a million years ago: http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/A/bo20711131.html).

          7. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Listen, you may disagree which is fair enough, but I think I have been pretty clear. The market – via supply and demand – decides what your wages will be.”

            I know, I’m obviously disagreeing here. You seem to be trying to imply that wages are controlled by natural forces, thereby minimalising the responsibility of the payer of those wages. The reality is those wages are a human decision and so human considerations, like empathy, have to be considered when deciding the amount of pay.

            “Again, the market.”

            Right so length of time spent training has little if any relevance. The current tram driver market consists of 172 trained up people. People with marketing and law degrees are 10 a penny. So if it’s about availability of jobs versus availability of people to fill those jobs, shouldn’t solicitors and marketing managers earn potentially less than luas drivers?

          8. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

            Nice one MoyestWithExcitement!!!!!

            Below the belt…
            …you’re making me wet now and I’m a bloke.

          9. Keith

            > You seem to be trying to imply that wages are controlled by natural forces

            No, I’m saying the labour market controls wages.

            > thereby minimalising the responsibility of the payer of those wages.

            I think Transdev do feel they are paying a fair wage for the job. They would feel they are acting responsibly.

            Transdev has information about wages for similar positions across Europe, an LRC decision, public sentiment, and imo market supply and demand, on its side.

            What is the argument on the drivers side? Empathy?

            > The current tram driver market consists of 172 trained up people.

            172 people is not the potential supply of Luas drivers. Its the supply of actual trained drivers. If Transdev decided to spent 3 months training 2000 drivers, I’m sure the supply of people would be there to meet it.

            > People with marketing and law degrees are 10 a penny.

            Compared to Luas drivers, a marketing/law degree takes a few years, not a few months.

            That is not to say they are getting payed much. I would imagine they are getting much less than a Luas driver if they are just out of college.

            Either way, for the most part, it is determined by labour supply and industry demand.

          10. MoyestWithExcitement

            I’m sure the multinational corporation do feel like they’re paying all they want pay but you trying argument seems to be that the rate of pay was decided upon objective metrics which is clearly not reality. They pay want they *want* to pay and that is currently unfair for various reasons as outlined in the interviews published above. Anyway, the official line from the. Was that they couldn’t afford the increase, it had nothing to do with market rates. Also, it is a not a free market. There are no other tram driving jobs. Comparing it to other industries where workers are free to move to competitors and use job offers from those competitors as leverage in negotions (and initially remember, Transdev wouldn’t even speak to the drivers which is not surprising given the no union clause they used to have) does not make sense. Two different economic circumstances so different rules.

          11. Keith

            > I’m sure the multinational corporation do feel like they’re paying all they want pay

            No, the reality is that for any company, the best wage result is to pay just enough to stop the employee from leaving, and just enough to entice a person to become an employee. Anything extra is inefficient.

            The market dictates what that min and max should be. A minimum wage exists to set a floor on what is “just enough”.

            There is a reason Premiership players get paid what they do, and teachers get paid what they do. It has nothing to do with their contribution to society or “what is right”, it has everything to do with the labour market.

            > but you trying argument seems to be that the rate of pay was decided upon objective metrics which is clearly not reality.

            No, it’s not objective, its a market. No different to how a stock or a bond is priced. If there are more buyers than sellers, the price goes up. If there are more sellers than buyers, the price goes down.

            > Also, it is a not a free market. There are no other tram driving jobs.

            I would hardly call driving a tram a vocation. These people are free to pursue other careers.

            > and initially remember, Transdev wouldn’t even speak to the drivers which is not surprising given the no union clause they used to have

            Yea, I would like to know how those no-union-clauses work. They don’t seem legal but I don’t know enough/anything about it to comment.

            As for them being in a union, fair enough. The fact that they are in a union in the first place is a sign of the job’s supply-demand lopsidedness. Its the only leverage they have.

          12. MoyestWithExcitement

            “If there are more buyers than sellers, the price goes up.”

            So remind me why solicitors and marketing managers get good wages even though there are far more people with marketing degrees than jobs?

            “and just enough to entice a person to become an employee. Anything extra is inefficient.”

            Just enough. Exactly my point. They don’t pay what is fair, they pay what they FEEL is JUST enough. Except there are no other tram jobs to go to so they know they can get away with paying unfair wages.

            “The market dictates what that min and max should be.”

            Again, no it doesn’t. The company management does. There are no other tram jobs, thus no market, to dictate that. It is a decision 100% made by company management.

      2. Micheál

        He says they aren’t ALL earning €42K. He doesn’t say that he isn’t, and the fact that the other guy is earning €41,500 (if he gets his full performance related bonus) also doesn’t contradict what he said.

    2. Bing Gong Gone

      Indeed – refreshing to hear how they uniquely have to deal with working unsocial hours and dealing with antisocial behaviour. On top of that they “always have to be alert”. Good God – no wonder they want more money having to deal with all of that while the rest of us snooze through our 11am to 3pm jobs.

      1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

        Scrambled eggs, Mum!
        Oh, sorry. I just woke up. What’s going on?

      2. MoyestWithExcitement

        “Indeed – refreshing to hear how they uniquely have to deal with working unsocial hours”

        Where did they say it was unique? Did you misread the interviews or intentionally misrepresent them?

        1. Bing Gong Gone

          I’m not sure that I misrepresented them. I did however take from those comments that they are using the fact that they work unsocial hours and deal with antisocial behaviour as at least some justification for their argument that they aren’t gettng paid enough. All the while there are workers who work just as antisocial hours and deal with as much or more antisocial behaviour (e.g., service industry workers, nurses, Gardai) who get paid a lot less.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            “All the while there are workers who work just as antisocial hours and deal with as much or more antisocial behaviour (e.g., service industry workers, nurses, Gardai) who get paid a lot less.”

            Something something would you jump off a bridge if your friends did something something. Just because someone else accepts unfair circumstances doesn’t mean “I” have to. And I’m pretty sure the Gardaí and nurses have had pay related industrial disputes in the past.

          2. Mark Dennehy

            That’s an absolutely excellent argument Bing.

            The thing is, it’s an absolutely excellent argument for paying Gardai, nurses and everyone else more — it’s not actually an argument against not doing that for any one sub-group.

  3. Neil

    I love how the first guy basically says ‘we do not earn 42K per year’ but does not disclose his salary, and the second guy says he earns up to 41500 per year. Priceless

    1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

      I love how the two guys do two different jobs and there’s no reason to presume they get paid the same.

      1. POC

        Good point, David took a pay decrease to switch from driver to ticker checker so we can assume that Theo there makes more than him.

        1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

          Assume away, asume away…Assume away, asume away…
          The red and green line sleeps tonight

    1. Daddy Wilson

      I think the funny part is there is not even the possibility of a primary source online – unless the internet became sentient.

  4. POC

    Replace them all with an automated tram system, strike days would be the perfect opportunity to test such a system.

    1. Nessy

      Yep, then use the Red line as a case study as to why Dublin couldn’t cope with automation of trams

    2. Mark Dennehy

      …so you want to have 50 tons of tram driving autonomously though Dublin city center, depending on software to prevent collisions. While you’re walking about that city center.

      And you’re proposing this the day after we find that thousands of people in the UK have been given unnecessary drugs with serious side effects because of software error (and thousands more who *needed* those drugs weren’t given them for the same reason).

      Might I suggest just a little more conservatism about adopting autonomous systems that can kill people? Just the tiniest smidge?

      1. Micheál

        Absolutely. Next they’ll be suggesting that traffic lights should depend on software. Crazy!

        1. Mark Dennehy

          Y’know that the traffic lights don’t actually directly control the cars, right? That they tell the drivers what they should be doing but don’t actually have control over the brakes and the accelerator and the steering wheel?

  5. Rowsdower

    I like the last guys story, not only does he have to alert when driving the LUAS some of the time, he also has to call an engineer if something goes wrong.Truly, the real hero in this whole saga.

    1. thecitizenatbarneys

      Theo was so stressed going forward and back he had to have an emergency break.

      1. Rowsdower

        Every single worker gets up at 3am and works every single day, including weekends and bank holidays according to poor Theo.

  6. Cynic

    Can’t we just euthanize all unskilled people and replace them with robots to perform the dirty tasks for the professional higher grade humans?

    I mean they shouldn’t really have any rights unless they generate a gross profit every day. Their parents should produce a business plan for them at birth so we know that our taxpayers money isn’t going towards keeping them alive.

    1. Rowsdower

      Yeah, you’re right. We should just pay these people whatever they want because they are belligerent and disruptive.

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      A1. I’ve swallowed and propagated company propaganda for months and I’ll be damned if I ever show any humility and self awareness and admit that I might have been wrong so all these lads can go fupp themselves with their silly requests for dignity and a first pay rise in 5 years.

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          Yes, let’s use ridiculous hyperbolic comparisons for context here and then claim THEY’RE doing it so we can dismiss the message. Excellent strategy.

          1. Rowsdower

            I know you aren’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, so ill reiterate this for you. The first comment in this entire chain of comments was someone using sarcastic hyperbole to make their point. You wont to throw a strop and stomp around like a 5 year old that’s just pissed its own pants, you should probably take a second to be think, less you come across even more embarassing and idiotic then you usually do.

          2. Owen C

            ” let’s use ridiculous hyperbolic comparisons for context here”

            Says the puppy-kicking-accuser. Brilliant.

          3. mildred st. meadowlark

            Hi. Remember where you implied I was a puppy kicker? Not a hyperbolic comparison at all.

          4. Rowsdower

            Yeah, its staggering to hear that Moyest is not only a moron, but also a hypocrite.

          5. MoyestWithExcitement

            Except that I didn’t. I specifically said I had no evidence. The point was to show unfair it was to talk about how bad someone might be if they did something *when you know they’re not going to actually do it*

          6. mildred st. meadowlark

            See, you talk about context too. The context for *my* comments were that the luas drivers have set a precedent for targeting specific days to cause maximum disruption when they were striking. So you can’t say my comments were baseless.

            However, I have never (before today) been linked in any way to hurting puppies, or any animal, in any way. So…

          7. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

            Did someone say ‘sharpest tool in the drawer?

            Let me tell you something…
            It’s no fun being the sharpest tool in the drawer. Nobody ever replies to you because they think you’re going to tear them a new one.
            -They’re probably right.

            I’d back off from MoyestWithExcitement if I were you.

          8. MoyestWithExcitement

            Right but he was using sarcasm to dismiss the entire content of the message so get wouldn’t have to consider any of it. He wasn’t actually analysing it. I was doing the exact opposite with you. Two very different things.

          9. rotide

            You’re labelling your commentary as ‘analysis’ now?

            The Times editorial must be bricking it.

  7. Leopold Gloom

    If they don’t like the hours, they shouldn’t have ever applied for jobs.

    The pay reflects the unsocial hours anyway

    1. some old queen

      No Clampers it was always out there. It’s was more a case that once this dispute started the media tried to set the agenda, which begs the question as to why they were siding with Transdev(Veolia)?

      Those trams are twice the weight of an articulated truck. They are so heavy that the foundations of buildings along a line have to be sured up beforehand and in some cases basements completely filled in. They have six independent braking systems on them and they are all needed. Add to that every idiot in a car, cycle or walking who thinks they can stop in a split second?

      It’s not a job I would want, even at twice the money.

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        I’ve not regularly watched tv news in a long, long time. Have any of them interviewed drivers yet? I did see a ridiculous TV3 report a whole back where they used disgraceful Fox-esque “some are saying” lines to say how awful and selfish the drivers were.

  8. john

    i love the way it says were not on 42k and then moves on without actually saying what their all in yearly gross salaries are. what a load of rubbish

    1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

      I love the way you told us what you earn john.
      -What’s that you say, ‘It’s none of my business’?

      Oh…

  9. Owen C

    Lets go through the claims individually

    “the company is telling the public we are all earning €42,000 per year”

    No they’re not. They actually released a full document showing what every single Luas worker earns. I’ve posted the link up here previously. They actually couldn’t be more transperent in this regard.

    “when our union reps have given management something on the table to discuss they just come back and say nothing”

    Actually, the went to the WRC and came up with a deal which SIPTU recommended drivers accept. They chose not to accept.

    “luas drivers get up every morning at 3am”

    they do shifts. some get up at 3am. some get up at 12 noon. We don’t accuse them of having lovely lie ins.

    “weekends, banks holidays we are working…we deny ourselves many things to be tram drivers, and have little social life”

    As are a fair portion of the rest of the labour force. People in the hospitality sector would likely work a large proportion of their total working hours at weekends than the Luas drivers. Also, the average weekly average hours worked by Luas drivers is 35.45 hours. With 9 hour shifts, that suggests 4 days a week on, 3 off. I’d love to be able to split my working hours in that manner, as i think would most other people. It actually suggests huge scope for a social life.

    “we are insulted and assaulted on almost a daily basis.”

    I would love to see statistics where a company with 240 staff (not just drivers) suffers assaults on an almost daily basis. This would imply each driver is assaulted a couple of times a year. Sorry, just don’t buy it.

    “we need to be alert to avert accidents”

    So do i when I’m driving my car.

    “we work early in the morning until late into the night.”

    No you don’t. You work early in the morning until early afternoon, or early afternoon until late into the night. You don’t do both at the same time. Luas drivers can only work a maximum of 9 hours straight.

      1. Mark Dennehy

        Think someone’s forgotten what the legal definition of assault actually is…

        …and has *definitely* forgotten that a valid counter-argument to someone wanting a better life is not pointing out that others don’t have that. Because if that *was* accepted as a valid counter-argument, then success would come from being a rampant asshat and never listening to others or developing empathy and we’d all be living in a horrible third world banana republic in an ever-increasing spiral of desperation and deprivation while those same few asshats gathered ever more resources to themselves and…. oh, wait. Hm. So you’re arguing for things being this bad? Wow.

        1. Owen C

          I’m saying that their argument is framed in a “we are not treated fairly” manner, when that is a highly subjective argument. What is fair and what is unfair? Usually we compare against how other people are generally treated, which is why i referenced other people. This isn’t a radical way of assessing an argument.

          On the assault issue, are we saying the following happens with the regularity suggested by the driver:

          “2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—
          (a) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another, or
          (b) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact,
          without the consent of the other.”

          1. Mark Dennehy

            Frankly, 2(1)(b) happens a lot to a lot of people on the red line around the four courts, not just the drivers. But the drivers are stuck on the luases with the source of those 2(1)(b)’s.

            Or did you think that they were paying for luas security guards from an altruistic need to employ people who would otherwise be unemployed?

            Also, I didn’t read him saying “we’re not treated fairly”. I don’t think he used the word at all. He was saying “we’re not paid enough for the work we do”. And “neither is everyone else” is not actually a counterargument to that, and it definitely is not a reason for them to try to change that for themselves. You’d do exactly the same thing if you were in the same situation (hell, isn’t that what you try to do in your annual review process in your office?)

          2. Owen C

            yes. we all try to make the best of our lives. But how does anyone “justify” a pay claim like other than by (a) comparisons with other workers or (b) productivity gains they can point to?

          3. Mark Dennehy

            (c) How much money they earn their company.

            Which is actually how we all do it because companies don’t listen to any other reason (and aren’t public ones aren’t legally supposed to as we’re not shareholders).

            So… how many trams do Transdev board members actually drive again? I mean, I know what the drivers do, and the security staff, and the maintenance engineers… but it’s the luas. How many board members are actually needed? How much do they earn the company in a year?

    1. rotide

      Owen, Can you stop refuting this nonsense in a logical manner and get back to kicking puppies?

        1. Owen C

          Yes, the logic is that if drivers were assaulted so regularly we would all be aware of such shocking statistics. So i’m saying i’m very skeptical of it. This is a logical observation, right or wrong. You don’t do logic, so I wouldn’t expect you to get it.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            “if drivers were assaulted so regularly we would all be aware of such shocking statistics”

            More logic!

          2. Owen C

            Yep, that’s logic. I think you need to look up the meaning of the word. You don’t seem to understand what it means.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            OK. *opens dictionary* Hmm. L, l, l…..l! Right, ummm..there we go; logic. ‘Assuming something isn’t happening because you’ve not read about it in the news is an entirely logical conclusion to take.’ Holy crap, you’re right!

          4. Owen C

            seeing as you’re too lazy to do it yourself

            “reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.”

            So yes, that we have not heard of something as worrying as this makes me question whether it has happened. I know such deductive reasoning is not something you’re particularly savvy in, but at least try it out for once. Trolling blogs and trading insults is gonna get boring eventually, so it would be good if you had some sort of skillset to fall back on.

          5. MoyestWithExcitement

            Can you teach me? ‘It’s not happening if I didn’t see it’ seems like the ‘principled reasoning’ of a real winner.

          6. MoyestWithExcitement

            Yeah after trying to wrap my head around your “logic” it certainly feels like I need one. Also, using special needs people as a pejorative to insult people. Nice.

          7. Owen C

            You really are a whingebag. If you ever tried to kick your own puppy it would welcome the relief that a swift death would bring from the tedious boredom it would otherwise have to ensure if it remained by your side.

          8. MoyestWithExcitement

            Yikes! I’d advise against drinking in your heightened emotional state this evening, petal.

  10. rob

    if they aren’t happy in their current job, why don’t they just find a new one? that’s what most unhappy employees do. either that or the luas operator should make them redundant and hire people who actually want to do the job.

    1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

      They have a name for that rob.
      They call it ‘cheap labour‘.

      I call it rob-bery.

  11. rob

    it’s not robbery. the average industrial wage in ireland is 34k. these guys are being paid 42k, over 20% that and they want more. my brother is a truck driver. he has to work at weekends and anti-social hours, evenings and so on and is paid 40k. his work can be stressful and demanding and he never gives out. maybe they could learn a thing or two from him.

    1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

      That isn’t how it works rob.

      I don’t have a brother like yours.
      I work very anti-social hours myself, including nights, weekends and bank-holidays.
      I don’t earn what Luas drivers earn, but I don’t think that’s relevant.
      Maybe your brother agrees, and you could learn something from him.

      1. rob

        what do you mean i could learn something form my brother? that’s just the situation he is in. he can’t look for a new job as his wife is ill and he has to look after their two kids as well. sure it would be great if he earned more money, but he can’t look for a new job so he is just making the best of what he has. And yeah Mark, he could be better paid, I’m sure his family would be delighted, but that isn’t going to happen because of what I just explained.

      2. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

        @ rob;

        Have you applied for ‘X-Factor’ yet?
        -You’re a shoe-in.

        Make up a couple more tragedies and you might win.

        1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

          PS rob…

          I don’t understand how you ‘brother’ can do the two things, work and not be able to work.

          If that’s what he’s doing then maybe you shouldn’t talk about it.
          I know a lot of ‘truck drivers’ meself.
          I have a lot of brothers.
          Never the twain shall meet.

          I can’t remember any of their names.

          1. rob

            my brother works and when he has free time he looks after his wife who is ill. what i said is he is unable to look for a new job, but thanks for making fun of me and my family

    2. Mark Dennehy

      Maybe you brother should be paid better *as well*.
      I mean, if we have to have this zero-sum game arrangement, could we pay Denis O’Brien and Enda Kenny a few quid less instead of people at the other end?

      1. Rob_G

        Why don’t we pay everyone €40k, regardless of their job, and see how well that works out?

          1. Mark Dennehy

            It’s called Basic Income. It was tried in Canada just after WW2 (the project was called Mincome) and apparently worked spectacularly well. People continued to work, public costs went down across the board, and it was by pretty much every objective metric a success. That, and the inevitable decline in the number of jobs that actually exist in the modern world as we use more and more automation to remove the need for humans (no, seriously, go read some economics papers on this), pretty much mean it’s where we’re headed (well, that or a large die-off). It’s cheaper than welfare, it raises living standards universally, it cuts healthcare costs (if you can eat dinner more than once every two days, your health improves, let alone the effect on your mental health) and it was by all accounts just generally better.

            And Switzerland is voting on trying this out again at the moment…
            http://www.thelocal.ch/20160127/swiss-to-vote-on-guaranteed-income-for-all

  12. Mulder

    Listen to be fair, it be summer time, the sun be out and blue sky, so it is holiday time.
    Time to take a holiday and few days off.
    Not often ye get good weather like this.
    And shrr it be a great day for a long walk or get the bike out.
    Often wondered what luas was the irish for slow.

    1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

      Sorry Mulder, I’d forgotten about that Limerick.
      I’ll start again.

      Second worst limerick ever!!!!!

      1. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

        I wrote a limerick today, but I posted it on the limerick thread where it belonged.
        It was the second best limerick ever, but nobody read it because I posted it too late.

        Look;
        http://tinyurl.com/hpn6n5w

  13. Mulder

    I know ye say that now but it be easy to ehh, forget about the limerick as opposed to the other limerick which is ironically named after the other limerick.
    Jaysus which ehh, limerick or.
    Feck it.

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