To Be A Rock And Not To Troll

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From top: Anne Marie canvassing during the last General Election; Anne Marie

 

Wouldn’t it be great if equal attention was paid to online trolling and the far more ubiquitous and damaging elements of the traditional media who seek to create division and hatred between us and our fellow humans?

Anne Marie McNally writes:

Last week I wrote about the horrific tragedy in Orlando – the hatred and intolerance that had bred the killer who carried out the atrocity and the public narrative which had sought to justify various positions of different groups which, in either a direct or indirect way, had facilitated such a tragedy.

This week is tragically no different. Jo Cox, a Labour Member of Parliament, a mother, a loved one, was brutally murdered as she went about her constituency business as normal on Thursday afternoon.

She was slain by a man reportedly shouting “Britain first”, a man who later identified himself in court with the statement: “My name is death to traitors, freedom for Britain.”

Jo herself was an ardent supporter of refugee rights and humanitarian efforts. Yet despite these pretty obvious pointers, many in the public space seemed loathe to label the murder as a far-right act.

‘Na, it was just a mad-man saying anything at all, his comments meant nothing’ went the refrain…probably from those who nod in agreement with Daily Express and Telegraph headlines about ‘Migrants taking Over’ or ‘Rapists hide among them’ or ‘One out of every five killers is an immigrant’ (Am I crazy that I’m worried about the other 4?!)

One of the most disappointing things I encountered during my recent outing in the General Election campaign was the insidious racism that was becoming evident in people’s everyday lexicon. They would never in a million years identify themselves as racist but it was there.

No matter what way you dress it up if you’re saying ‘I’m not racist BUT….. look after our own first; or there’s too many of ‘them’; or they’re getting benefits/jobs/school places/houses etc. etc.’…then yes, you may not mean to be but you are rationalising racist rhetoric.

In a culture where that attitude is not only being propagated by far-right extremists but is instead becoming parlance du jour for front pages and Betty next door out pruning her roses or changing her tyre, it is not difficult to see why extremists feel more comfortable mingling with Joe and Josephine Soap.

In a thankfully less serious but also horrifying way, we have seen our own racist attacks in this country recently, not least of which was the beating of an Afghan family with young children in the leafy Dublin suburb of Rathfarnham.

The rhetoric and indeed the proliferation of outlets for such rhetoric, hate speech and violence to be promoted and propagated is extremely worrying but so too is the counter-culture which, perhaps unwittingly or perhaps not, in some cases, seeks to dull the sound of legitimate dissent by labelling it as hate-speech, trolling or online abuse.

It is an entirely different thing to call out a politician for questionable policies or actions you don’t agree with than it is to threaten rape, murder or harm to family members.

Let’s not conflate the two. To do so is a dangerous perversion of free-speech, political discourse and active engaged citizenry.

Labour TD Joan Burton’s comments over the weekend called for ‘the problem of online abuse to be confronted and tackled now’ before it gets too far out of hand.

We’ve all seen idiots at play on social media. We’ve all seen the hateful crap and often the bile that online commentators can spew. It’s not acceptable.

Every right-minded person knows that, and in most cases, calls it out.

However we’ve also seen some of the stuff that has been labelled by Joan Burton, Lorraine Higgins, (the former Labour Senator who crusaded to control social media) and others, as hate speech and it’s not.

It’s not abuse. it’s simple disagreement with political actions, there’s a significant difference.

The other day I pointed out something regarding a former representative who I, and others, thought had acted inappropriately.

I was accused of ‘waging a war’ of ‘going after him’ and various other hyperbolic statements, none of which were true. I was simply pointing out something I disagreed with, in a respectful and appropriate fashion.

If we seek to close such responsible political discourse by means of somehow avoiding the irresponsible and dangerous elements of online trolling then we do ourselves a serious disservice.

Wouldn’t it be great if equal attention was paid to the far more ubiquitous and damaging elements of the traditional media who seek to create division and hatred between us and our fellow humans wherever they may hail from?

And…I know I can trust that the comment section under here will have armies of those who respectfully disagree with me and think I’m an awful person without wanting to cause me harm or spew bile at me.

And that’s perfectly OK, in fact it’s healthy – you wouldn’t want me looking to close the comments section would you?! ;-)

Anne Marie McNally is a founding member of the Social Democrats. Follow Anne Marie on Twitter: @amomcnally

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87 thoughts on “To Be A Rock And Not To Troll

  1. JIMMY JAMES

    I’M NOT SAYING SHE IS A BANDWAGON JUMPER, BUT IF SHE DID JUMP ON A BANDWAGON WAGON, IT WOULD PROBABLY THE MOST POPULAR BANDWAGON IN THE WORLD.

    1. M

      People should treat this story with extreme caution. The timing is just too coincidental.

      Did anybody notice that his first court appearance is the morning of the referendum?

      Thereby giving millions of Britons a psychological priming before they cast their votes.

      Don’t believe a word.

          1. M

            And conversely, very easy being you. Just repeat whatever the news says. Cause there has never been a conspiracy in human history. Ever.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        She died last week, timing is due to that, and the fact they caught the guy straight away.

        Yes, it’ll have an influence, no it was not a conspiracy or planned that way ffs…. >_<

  2. MoyestWithExcitement

    “Let’s not conflate the two. To do so is a dangerous perversion of free-speech, political discourse and active engaged citizenry.”

    That’s probably the point.

  3. Water Boy

    All have a responsibility to act with dignity online, I would not accuse the author of being rude or offensive online but there are many who are and spend an exceptional amount of time sharing political memes and posts designed to dehumanise their political opponents. It behoves candidates to get on top of their supporters conduct.

  4. DubLoony

    The abuse that Joan Burton was subjected to was not merely a disagreement on policy actions and you know it.
    Just last week, at a commenoration of Jo Cox, there were tweets directed at her to the effect that she too should be dead. And that is the mild stuff.
    Very disingenuous article.

        1. Caroline

          My use was perfectly cromulent, as always. It’s disingenuous to pretend she means death threats are not hate speech. She said “some of the stuff” Burton and Higgins complained about was not hate speech. Granted, she didn’t give any examples, meaning her point is not well made, but in the absence of any examples, and in the context of what she actually wrote, claiming that she therefore somehow meant death threats were fine is… disingenous.

    1. ahjayzis

      I think the point Amo’s making is that there’s a world of difference between wishing death on someone and accusing them of seemingly having a vendetta against single parents or the like. Strong, even hyperbolic political argument is not one and the same with hate speech / death threats / personal attacks and to lump ’em together denigrates proper democratic argument.

      1. Vote Rep #1

        The abuse Burton got was far more than just accusing them of seemingly having a vendetta against single parents or the like. Many commentators on here used her as the butt of all their annoyance with the previous government. Hardly surprising that they are now trying to downplay it.

        1. ahjayzis

          I don’t downplay it – she was the greatest disappointment to me I’ve ever come across in politics. I believed in her in opposition, in government she became a caricature of a Fianna Fail minister. Would not answer a question, just wouldn’t. Arrogant, supercilious, unaccountable.

          You can call that abuse, I call it having an opinion on the performance of someone I voted for and once believed in.

          Criticising in strong terms politicians isn’t abuse or hate speech, once you start subscribing to the chronically-unelectable-yet-still-somehow-on-the-payroll Lorraine Higgins’ doctrine you damage democracy and void whatever accountability is left.

          1. Kieran NYC

            No, you got very personal targeting Joan. “Hag” and “wagon” were in your lexicon, I remember. You seemed to hate her as a person, or at least that’s what you vented online.

            Let’s not pretend that Broadsheet hasn’t been getting increasingly nasty and vitriolic.

  5. Clampers Outside!

    “…probably from those who nod in agreement with Daily Express and Telegraph headlines about ‘Migrants taking Over’ or ‘Rapists hide among them’ or ‘One out of every five killers is an immigrant’ (Am I crazy that I’m worried about the other 4?!)”

    ” Am I crazy that I’m worried about the other 4?! ”

    Sorry, what now? Double speak? Giving out about sensationalism, yet maintaining your own… wtf?!

    ——————
    This bit too….. can somebody explain this…..

    “It is an entirely different thing to call out a politician for questionable policies or actions you don’t agree with than it is to threaten rape, murder or harm to family members.
    Let’s not conflate the two.”

    Who is conflating those two… seriously, I’m completely lost on that one…..

    ___________

    A well meaning piece, if a bit all over the shop in parts.

    Now, when’s the next Broadsheet FCA day? I need new boots :)

  6. MoyestWithExcitement

    “Sorry, what now? Double speak? Giving out about sensationalism, yet maintaining your own… wtf?!”

    Where is the sensationalism in her post?

    “A well meaning piece,”

    You sure seem fond of patronising her.

    “if a bit all over the shop in parts.”

    Much like your post. Difference being your post really is all over the place.

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        Nope. Just pointing out your arseholery for my own amusement much like you get a kick from incoherently raging at female columnists.

        1. Water Boy

          “Just pointing out your arseholery for my own amusement”

          That in a nutshell is what is wrong with social media and thats how the slippery slope forms.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            You’re right. When you see someone being obnoxious and insulting to others, you should keep quiet. That’s how to build a happy society.

          2. ahjayzis

            The fact that social media mirrors actual real-life social interactions is the problem?

            Being patronising or mildly insulting are rhetorical tools, and are not the same as threatening or throwing personal abuse.

            I can see myself pointing out someone’s arseholery in real life – I don’t threaten to kill, maim or hurt people in real life though.

          3. Anne

            “I can see myself pointing out someone’s arseholery in real life ”

            I mostly just grit my teeth and smile.. I let it all out online. It’s much less confrontational lol

          4. ahjayzis

            Speak for yourself rotide, I waffle just as much and with as much verve IRL as I do on here or Twatter ;o)

            If you wouldn’t make a certain comment in polite company, don’t broadcast it to the world.

          5. Kieran NYC

            Moyest has admitted numerous times to trolling people purely because he gets pleasure out of it.

            Ignore him.

    1. ahjayzis

      Really? Fluffy you’re a saint.

      I wish like eight to ten people dead every single day.

      I just keep it to myself.

        1. ahjayzis

          And people who take full trollies to self-service checkouts. A quick death is too good for em >_<

          1. ahjayzis

            I’ve never experienced it anywhere but Waitrose in Chelsea. Which stands to reason as this kip is full of entitled old Tory crones pushing their way around.

          2. some old queen

            Oh look at you with your Waitrose in Chelsea. Would Sainsburys in Fulham not do you rightly huh?

          3. ahjayzis

            In a pinch, yeah. But if you’ve a pancetta emergency are you really gonna trust Sainsburys?

          4. some old queen

            A pancetta princesses so.

            *waits for someone to complain about this comment as racist*

            Actually, I do know that area of Chelsea quite well myself.

    2. Anne

      I’ve wished people dead on occasion.. like there’s this hope when you don’t see that pain in the arse who was pestering you for months on end, year in, year out, with abusive texts and emails that maybe just maybe their liver finally packed it in and they’ve reached life’s limits, as the pro-life brigade put it.

      It’s just a passing thought like.. it can’t be helped.

  7. Medium Sized C

    Why is this the second article relating to Trolling I have seen led off by talk of Jo Cox’ murder.

    I mean I thought trolling was trying to start arguments or make people feel bad on the internet.
    From what I have seen Mair was and sort of is shouting identifiably white supremacist/nationalist language.
    According to what I have read, he may as well be a post on Stormfront.

    Why is this suddenly about trolling or misogyny?
    Making this a dig at Joan Burton, or indeed about trolling is kind of in the same vein as the whole “just a madman shouting things” that the mainstream media was doing. Or would be if you were to stretch that far.

    1. Medium Sized C

      Which is to say, its about a dude who killed an MP because he saw her as encouraging non-white people coming into Britain.

      Making it about something else is reprehensible in my book.

      1. ahjayzis

        +1

        What’s really lead to an increase in xenophobia and the extreme right in Britain is the co-opting of BNP, EDL and UKIP lingo by so-called mainstream politicians like the detestable glove puppet Gove and the likes. They’ve let a genie out of the bottle and legitimised the worst human traits in order to score political capital. This is the ugliest referendum and political climate I’ve ever lived through and it didn’t start with trolls calling a politician fat on twitter. Someone who makes death threats against someone else on Twitter isn’t a troll, they’re a criminal.

        1. ahjayzis

          Forgot to mention the poisonous UK media, obvs they’re the longest running font of racism and isolationism.

        2. some old queen

          Assuming the Remain win tomorrow, what do you think will be the longer lasting effects of this in England?

          1. ahjayzis

            I actually dread to think of the Little English nationalism that’ll arise if England votes out and is kept in on a tight margin by Remain votes in Scotland and NI.

            I’m not really in England though, London is so divorced from Little England it’s practically a separate country.

          2. some old queen

            I was thinking more of the long term damage if they remain.

            I expect there are people from elsewhere who will be leaving either way because some of the things that have been said are way over the line.

  8. Steve

    So much needling each other. Why don’t us broadsheet commenters meet up for a pint and have it out the old fashioned way??

    This online stuff is getting boring.

    1. ahjayzis

      Dangerous ground. You know we’d bond over our mutual enmity for Leather Jacket Guy and form an angry mob.

      1. mildred st. meadowlark

        I’d be all over that. I can see badatmemes starting a bar brawl just for the fun of it though.

        1. Kieran NYC

          Yeah, but he’d fight with the rest of his multiple personalities so he’d do no harm

    2. Kieran NYC

      Wasn’t this done years and years ago? I have a vague memory of it being mentioned.

      Presumably it’s to keep us safe in case Mani comes ‘dressed up’.

  9. some old queen

    Just picking up the word ‘Racist’ for a minute. It does bug me when it is used inappropriately and especially when used as a censoring tool to silence legitimate debate.

    The LGBT community are probably the most ethnically diverse group in Dublin but are far from being politically correct. Some of the things those drag queens say would leave you jaw on the floor and race is the least of it. And yet, people are extremely tolerant of each other so I shall use the gay dating app Grindr to explain the point.

    A guy states that he is only interested in other white Irish. Another says he is only into black or maybe Brazilian. Third is into Malaysian or Thai maybe. Nobody bats an eyelid at any of this and anyone who runs around trying to be the PC police are going to get a slap. My point is that while it is all about race, it is most definitely not racism.

    1. ahjayzis

      Plenty of people bat an eyelid? I’ve come a lot of profiles saying “Sorry, I’m not into racists” and even long diatribes aimed at precisely that ugly language on some people’s profiles. On Gaydar there are stickers for profiles saying No Racists for precisely that reason.

      You can just not reply to someone you’re not into, you don’t need to list however many billion people on the planet you won’t sleep with without having seen/met based on their ethnic origin. It’s an ugly thing to read, and it makes the person completely unfuppable in my view.

      1. rotide

        This is fascinating.

        How is ‘looking for black/brazilian no chinese please’ any different from ‘Looking for a tall guy/petit woman’?

        1. ahjayzis

          My measure is if you wouldn’t put it on a t-shirt in a club, you probably shouldn’t put it on a profile.

          It’s more like wearing a “No Fat Chicks” tshirt to a night out.

          1. rotide

            There are lots of things I and I’m sure you wouldn’t put on a t-shirt that you’d be happy to put on a profile, not a great example.

            I’d 100% wear a No Fat Chicks t shirt, but that shouldn’t surprise anyone :)

          2. ahjayzis

            I’m not marching against it, I just think it’s a very ugly thing to write, and so it’s probably self-defeating because as I said there’s a backlash against it.

            In general I don’t like and tend to ignore people who spend a paragraph designed to describe themselves listing in minute detail all the things they dislike in other people.

      2. some old queen

        To most it is just like saying over 6ft or under 30. Personal preference statements to attract a certain demographic. There is a skinhead club in the east end of London for black/ white of course. Is that racist? No, it is just a fetish.

    2. Caroline

      Got it. Saying the “Romanians” stole his bike is okay because you don’t have to ride Brazilians if you don’t want to.

      1. some old queen

        @ Kieran and Caroline

        I made the mistake of saying Romanian instead of Roma yes. But in the context of that area, a group who have a reputation for thieving are the most likely suspects. I have no doubt that once reported the Guards would have concluded likewise. Do I have issues with people of different races? Well, an ex is black so hardly.

        Seriously lads, loosen up a bit and stop jumping on people for making mistakes when posting on a non editable comments section.

        1. Kieran NYC

          Ha. I love how you think changing it to ‘Roma’ would have made your comment any different.

          You really don’t get it.

          1. some old queen

            I bloody well do get it. I have lived beside the friggers. Don’t knock it til you tried it eh?

        2. Caroline

          Would ya go on out of that. I live in the area. You made a ridiculous generalisation. Now you’re rowing back so fast you’ll be winning gold in the 2012 Olympics.

          1. some old queen

            Ok you live on the Phoenix Park side of NCR so? Ask the guards who are at particular doors three or four times a week.

            I don’t give two fupps if they are green with orange spots as long as they behave in a decent manner and respect their neighbours.

  10. rotide

    “Yet despite these pretty obvious pointers, many in the public space seemed loathe to label the murder as a far-right act. ‘Na, it was just a mad-man saying anything at all, his comments meant nothing’ went the refrain…”

    What? Where were people saying that?

    “Labour TD Joan Burton’s comments over the weekend called for ‘the problem of online abuse to be confronted and tackled now’ before it gets too far out of hand.”

    And she’s right. Just because you can control yourself online doesn’t mean there isn’t a vast amount of people that can’t. Or is it only a problem when misogynists start attacking women online, because there has been plenty of call on these pages to control that, even from yourself.

    This is a terrible piece and I’m sorry I read it. However I wish you all the best and good luck in the next election.

    1. Caroline

      Huh? She literally agreed with Burton’s point on online abuse. That means you are in agreement with her, which is hardly surprising because it’s a trite point and as she says, “every right-minded person knows that”. What she didn’t agree with is going on to label all strong criticism as hate speech.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        just for clarification….

        “every right-minded person knows that” = the consensus, usually.

        Not necessarily, “right”. The current state of our abortion laws would be a good example; which is also a good example of how “right” can evolve.

        Just sayin’

  11. Mulder

    i think the interwebs, was and is a Godsend, if can use the G word, to many folk who can not agree on the colour of sh.
    Thus it was always so.
    Folk in world since begining of time, simply can not agree.
    From adam and eve to the apostles to the different religions to different countries.
    Mind ye back in past if folk did not agree, they usually went to war.
    To-day it be more ehh, civilised folk go up on the interwebs and vent.
    Such is the way of the world.

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