Ibrahim Halawa
Yesterday witnessed the 14th adjournment of the trial of young Irishman Ibrahim Halawa. In a matter of moments the hopes of the family, friends and of those who have campaigned for Ibrahim’s release were dashed.
To be clear, Ibrahim is, as Amnesty International formally recognises, a prisoner of conscience. He has been “detained”, in reality imprisoned, since August of 2013 for speaking out against a military coup.
In a recent letter, Ibrahim recalled the manifest human rights abuses that he is being routinely exposed to and which do not bear repetition here. This has to end with Ibrahim’s release and it has to end now.
To date, the approach of the Irish Government in “protecting” Ibrahim as one of its citizens has been a manifest failure. Calls have been made for the Government to alter its course in how it is dealing with Ibrahim’s case, including from highly regarded legal office Doughty Street Chambers of London and Ibrahim’s former cellmate Peter Greste of Al Jazeera.
These calls have gone unheeded, and all the while Ibrahim, a young man from Firhouse in Dublin, languishes in prison for advocating for democracy. The toll this must be having on Ibrahim’s family can only be imagined.
The Government may have had its reasons for the softly-softly diplomatic approach that it has approached Ibrahim’s case with to-date; however, in light of yet another adjournment a new course must be charted and the advice of international experts listened to.
Various groups have called for the utilisation of Egyptian legal mechanism “Law 140”, essentially a presidential decree, the result of which could see Ibrahim return to Ireland while a final ruling is made on his case.
If those close to Ibrahim’s case still feel this is the way to proceed, then surely it is worth taking their advice seriously. As a young Irishman awaiting entrance to university in Ireland, Ibrahim has a future full of promise ahead of him. Each second he spends in prison is a second less for Ibrahim to develop into the young Irishman known to his friends and family.
I implore Minister for Foreign Affairs Charlie Flanagan to listen to all advice available and take every appropriate action now and bring Ibrahim home to Dublin. We owe it to ourselves as a democratic state that upholds the rule of law, due process and human rights. Most of all we owe it to Ibrahim.
Dr James Carr,
Department of Sociology,
University of Limerick.
Adjournment of Ibrahim Halawa’s trial (Irish Times letters)
Not forgetting that Ireland and the EU provide financial aid to Egypt.
We’re paying for this.
“Various groups have called for the utilisation of Egyptian legal mechanism “Law 140”, essentially a presidential decree, the result of which could see Ibrahim return to Ireland while a final ruling is made on his case.”
– this certainly sounds like a good way to resolve things – but how is the Irish govt supposed to compel the Egyptians to use it?
While he may be an Irish citizen he is also an Egyptian one, and is being tried as one. If the Egyptian gov called for Ireland to remove its separation of the judicial system from the executive there would be no chance the Irish state would do it so why should they do it for an Egyptian citizen. They should have the trial ASAP but their gov should stay out of judicial process.
Look folks would the government react differently if Ibrahim went by the name Michael McKiernan and was a white as a sheet? The thing is Ibrahim is Irish but we would rather promote the world view that the Irish are a sound bunch of lads and wouldn’t want anyone to think ill of us. God forbid we offend anyone in sticking up for our own citizens?
The story has received extensive coverage in the press, has been brought up in the Dáil many times, and the DFA released a statement on it just yesterday. Although he is an Irish citizen, the crimes Halawi is accused of committing took place in Egypt, so he is subject to their laws; the govt can’t force Egypt to release him just because he is Irish.
They can’t ‘force’ them to do anything, but they could try and apply the same leverage as the Australian, Canadian and US governments did for their (dual) nationals rounded up in the same coup for ‘terrorism’. They’re all out, while the Irish guy remains imprisoned.
I am sure they are; but all of those countries are bigger than Ireland, and probably have more leverage to lever, so to speak.
I’m pointing out that this argument that the govt aren’t trying to get Ibrahim Halawi released because he is called Ibrahim rather than ‘Seán Murphy’ is bull.
+1
+2
If Charlie Flanagan could do anything, he would have done it. He hardly wants to look as toothless as he is.
“I am sure they are;”
What do you mean you’re sure they are? Would you doubt those others are not out?
You create leverage by being very public and creating a big fuss.. that’s what got the others out. It’s nothing to do with the size of the country IMO.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/murder-accused-freed-after-three-years-in-custody-742623.html
Three years in custody in Ireland as well.
And? The man killed someone, and has been through a trial for that.
I don’t care what the government would do. How would broadsheet commenters vote if it was LJG next up to the gibbet?
“What sort of an Irish name is Guy anyway? He’s a self-identifying foreigner from Knobistan so he can face the consequences of his knobbery”…is how I think it would go down.
‘Oh sure, he claims he went there as a beer tourist but when the anti-beeristas took over how come he was on that stage at a pro-beer rally?’
He was secretly a Pioneer?
Mr Halawa is a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood. When did they sign up to democracy? There is an easily accessible video on the internet of Mr Halawa and his sisters speaking at a rally in support of the Muslim Brotherhood.
If Mr Halawa was so interested in securing the protection of the Irish state why did he travel on his Egyptian passport?
And I assume this is the same Amnesty International that refused to support the Birmingham six and Guildford Four?
It’s the same Amnesty International, in that it has the same name but different people running it with different ideals. So, we can’t really blame the current German government for the Holocaust, either.
And an Irish citizen is being held without trial for 3 years. Ignore what you think of the person, think of the fact that you are agreeing with indefinite incarceration. If it happened to you, would you say to yourself “It’s a fair cop, they don’t’ like my ideals so I deserve to be treated this way”?
If he’s guilty of a crime, let him be jailed AFTER he’s found guilty.
There isn’t one single thing you have said in this comment that makes it wrong to call for a fair trial or, failing that, his release.
The MB signed up to democracy before the election that formed the Morsi government. Same time as all other participants in the first democratic Egyptian elections did.
Ibrahim doesn’t have an Egyptian passport. He travelled on his only passport – an Irish one.
Amnesty did support both the the Birmingham six and the Guilford four. Refer to the thanks for their efforts from Paddy Hill, Paul Hill etc.
“Ibrahim doesn’t have an Egyptian passport. He travelled on his only passport – an Irish one.”
Is this a confirmed fact? It makes a big difference if it is true.
Why do you doubt that it is? (it is)
Speaking at a rally about democracy should warrant you getting locked up for 3 years without trial, subject to torture and abuse.. Gotcha.
Any Taxi Drivers like to comment on this?
I would be happy just with his dad’s comments. He is in an influential position, but doesn’t seem to want to speak out to defend his son.
Except when he has, of course.
+1 Also can’t decide if referring to his dad’s “influence” is naive or just flat out dishonest.
It’s mostly a flag of convenience for racist or sectarian attitudes. What’s hilarious is that a supposed sleeper agent for the MB is supposed to hold any influence with a military junta that’s gone out of it’s way to suppress any kind of political opposition – particularly from the MB.
Yeah racists do tend to make things up as they go along. That’s probably it.
A few points:
– I hate military dictatorships, but we all are all aware of how they operate and fail to observe civilian laws. Unless one wants to become a martyr, speaking publicly in dissenting political events carries a tag and risk with it. Take the risk if you want, it is yours and only yours. Otherwise, why not protest safely outside the Dublin embassy?
– Naive is to believe that the military has a 100% homogenous political position. There are many lines of thought, including MB sympathisers in power. There are strings that could be pulled by Mr. Halawa Sr.
– Mr. Halawa Jr. clearly travelled for the purpose of political engagement. Who paid for the flights for him and his sisters?
– I don’t think it is about race. If a dual US-Irish nationality person travelled to the US on the US passport and intentionally did something really stupid that landed him or her in jail or even death row, I would also be questioning why should the Irish government intervene. The racism is an easy card to pull on this one, it makes me wonder who is hiding behind those anonymous names…
“I hate military dictatorships….There are many lines of thought, including MB sympathisers in power. There are strings that could be pulled by Mr. Halawa Sr.”
A military dictatorship which overthrew the MB government can be influenced by an Irish alleged member of the MB. OK then.
“Mr. Halawa Jr. clearly travelled for the purpose of political engagement.”
No he clearly went there on holiday as evidenced by photographs and the fact he travelled there regularly to visit family. You “clearly” have an agenda against the brown skinned guy.
As far as argumentation goes, it doesn’t get more pathetic than “You “clearly” have an agenda against the brown skinned guy”. Stop being so intransigent, will you?
The military intervened to stop a constitutional threat that happened to come from MB. In my view those were two wrongs, one trying to overpower the law with religious fundamentalism and the other deposing a democratically elected government – though I have no idea how the coup could have been avoided without democracy being destroyed anyway.
There were Morsi sympathisers in the military and there were muslim pro-Sharia people also. They are still there… why is that so hard to believe?
“As far as argumentation goes, it doesn’t get more pathetic than “You “clearly” have an agenda against the brown skinned guy”. ”
So do you want to review your position that Halawa was “clearly” not on holiday? Your arguments are contradictory and based on poor logic and hearsay. Yet you’re “clearly” still comfortable enough to cast aspersions on his character and make declarations about his motivations. You’re obviously motivated by race.
Dude, how did the guy, and his sisters, end up on the stage of a huge political protest? Were they passing by riding on camel backs and accidentally fell onto the stage? Do you think the organisers went out looking for innocent tourists to make protest speeches? Who is being naive here?
By simply being in the country at the time (the coup happened AFTER they got there) and feeling a sense of injustice over it and need to get involved. Unless you want to argue that anyone on a water rates protest has links to the IRA? Do you want to apply your same stupid argument to white people and Irish nationalism then?
To be invited onto that stage, one would have to have a known political position and some sort of influence and connections.
“one would have to have a known political position and some sort of influence and connections.”
Really? How do you know this?
The naivety is in believing that tourists, with a stake in Egypt, wouldn’t be motivated to join a protest. The various foreign kids who spoke on the stage weren’t pulled out of the mist – they all opted to join a mass protest against an illegal coup. That you can’t see yourself doing the same in similar circumstances (or would like to pretend that this is the case) isn’t really here or there.
There was no constitutional threat from the Government at the time of the coup. An earlier attempt by the govt to push through constitutional changes had been defeated in parliament, and Morsi had conceded he was wrong to have attempted this.
hex, that’s a good point, and that I intend to investigate further independent of the issue of Mr, Halawa. There is conflicting information about whether Morsi had given up on his attack on the constitution and, as we know, the winner tends to write the official story, but it doesn’t mean it is the truth.
I lived through a coup in my youth and had close links on all ends of the story, from the ones in power to the ones in the resistance and armed guerilla. The one thing we knew was that public dissent should be left for the ones that had enough connections to avoid being imprisoned, tortured or even killed. I saw a 15 year old friend of mine being beaten by the police and attacked by dogs until he blacked out to scare others (including me), friends and teachers of mine were killed but we knew exactly what the risks were. We owned what we did.
It just makes me laugh at some of the line of argumentation being used here when questions are raised. If there is a good answer, for your own sake, use it instead of calling people dumb and naive. That’s makes for very poor debate and puts your credibility in doubt.
Don’t ask dumb questions, or propose naive scenarios, and you won’t get called out on them. Simples.
Quite the stream of nonsense. There was no military dictatorship when the family travelled to Egypt. They broke no civilian laws. And it’s a bit difficult to protest an Egyptian coup in Dublin, if you’re in Egypt. The people who came out and protested the coup against Chavez were all also exposing themselves to the possibility of risk, but they surpassed the coup through protest.
There are no MB sympathisers in the regime. And if there were, they would be very careful to hide those sympathies. Ibrahim’s da has no strings to pull in the junta.
Like any kid’s family holiday, it was paid for by their parents. It was a regular holiday, marked by the absence of coup protests in all previous trips.
Ibrahim held a singular passport – an Irish one. He held, and holds, no Egyptian passport. He had to pay his foreigner visa to enter Egypt. He did nothing more stupid than protest an illegal coup. I’ve no idea if you’re a racist, but you do seem to have problems engaging with the actual facts of the matter.
+1
If only his father Hussein Halawa, did not have links to the Muslim Brotherhood, if only he was not on stage holding a microphone at a protest in Egypt. Than maybe his, sure I was just on holidays line would be believable.
Regardless of what he was doing, none of it was illegal.
How do you know?
You reckon his da had a special insight into an impending coup, and sorted out tickets ahead of the leaving cert etc? How do you dismiss the pic of Ibrahim doing the tourist camel ride at the pyramids if he was supposed to be on some kind of nefarious MB mission. How do you explain away the previous family holidays during the school break? Even if Hussein Halawa has some links to the MB, which is unclear, and even if his kids opted to protest against the coup on the basis of a preference for the Morsi-led government, there’s no difficulty in accepting that the family were just in Cairo on their normal holiday time.
He wasn’t a tourist ffs
he certainly was.
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2015/12/12/215c4e40db6c4a57a8461f65e852032d_18.jpg
That’s nice, He got to see the pyramids while campaigning on behalf of a political cause
Non-tourist caught in tourist activity expose!
What is that undated photo supposed to prove?
That Ibrahim was a tourist, doing tourist activities. How many of your photos do you put a date mark on? Are you seriously suggesting the photo is not of Ibrahim, in Cairo, on the trip in question? Seriously?
So what? I mean you’re weighing the degree to which this guy did touristy things but also did radical protest things against the utter awfulness of the legal process? That his evident courage in protesting in Egypt is something to be held against him? That the laws of the reigning regime must be respected as if all reigning regimes are equally worthy of respect? I don’t even know what the critics here are suggesting other than that there are reasons, however poorly defined or arbitrary, that can be summoned to make it wrong for the Irish government to act on behalf an Irish citizen caught in a manifestly unjust and politically driven legal process, all of which, may I say, is a pretty damn dangerous position to take vis a vis Irish citizens abroad.
Lol always taking the bait grow up Nigel
The authoritarian strain in Ireland, a huge number of people always seem to side with officialdom, whatever that is in any given context.
I guess horses for courses, I don’t think taking to the stage. I am not sure attending Muslim Brotherhood protests is part of my idea of a holiday but
http://markhumphrys.com/Facebook/3.png
http://markhumphrys.com/Facebook/5.png
If you were in Courtown on your hollers, and FF decided to take over the place by force of arms, you’d not protest too?
Mark Humphreys seems like a bit of a contemptible little twit.. I should ping back this comment to him.
Here’s what he says ‘at the frontline’ in Israel, with a pic of his ugly mug –
Me at an Iron Dome battery outside Ashkelon, Israel, in December 2014.
I was privileged to get a tour of this and other IDF facilities.
The front line of the liberal, secular West against the jihad.
Muppet.
Mark Humphreys seems like a bit of a contemptible little tool.. I should ping back this comment to him.
Here’s what he says ‘at the frontline’ in Israel, with a pic of his ugly mug –
Me at an Iron Dome battery outside Ashkelon, Israel, in December 2014.
I was privileged to get a tour of this and other IDF facilities.
The front line of the liberal, secular West against the jihad.
Muppet.
Oh look.. You’d have to confine it to 140 characters, as he only wants to be contacted on twitter.
‘Fupping tool’ would cover it.
Contact
No email
I do not have the time to engage in email correspondence on these highly controversial topics – religion and politics – on which everybody has an opinion.
No comments
I do not have the time to read comment threads. I am always afraid of this site taking over my life.
Twitter
I have discovered, however, that Twitter is a manageable way to control feedback.
You can tweet to me at:
A shame you wouldn’t limit your communication channels and content in like fashion
Apparently doubting his innocence puts you on the admin naughty list here
Let the claims to victimhood begin. Much better than actually supporting slapdash claims with evidence.
You mean like Amnestey saying there is no evidence that he has suffered physical abuse and his sisters saying he is regularly beaten and denied food, normally the food denial only happens when he is not on his 24 hour hunger strike.
Amnesty never claimed there was no evidence of Ibrahim’s being physical abuse.
On the other hand, they have stated that they are gravely concerned for his mental and physical wellbeing.
Even if that were true, it invalidates his right to a fair trial… how?
Shocked!!!!
No one has been harping on about tearing up passports, denouncing Irish citizenship, Muslim Brotherhoods, shady Imam fathers and all the usual malarchy that accompanies his name…
People must be tiring of it now…
Are you implying that none of the above is relevant / actually happened? Just because you tire of something doesn’t make it disappear. Dan Boyle is proof of that alone.
The passport tearing and nationality denouncement certainly didn’t happen – except in the fervent minds of a few inter web head-the-balls. And he’s not responsible for his da’s views/politics/opinions.
I’ll just say that none of the above happened/is relevant instead of implying it.
This man clearly identifies as Egyptian. Aren’t we supposed to accept how people identify these days? He did so infront of 1000s at a mass rally in Cairo, footage of which is on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/gdyfl-JV5gg
He’s an Irish national, regardless of his ethnicity. He opted to carry an Irish passport, so clearly identified as an Irish national. No issues there for me – but you seem to have some?
Ibby’s response would likely be this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD2P9Px3enI
It’s possible to identify with two different countries. Ask any Irish American or just about anyone who represented us in international sport. And anyway, what’s your point? He identifies with his dad’s country so he deserves illegal treatment?
Nelson Mandela addressed a large crowd in Croke Park; does that mean that he is Irish? The advisability (or otherwise) of Halawa’s actions are beside the point.
The supposed proof of his not being Irish is the banner behind him ‘Egyptians abroad for democracy’. That he could identify as both an Irish national, and that his primary social experience is one of a Dubliner (born and bred in the city, schooled in multi-denominational schools, pretty typical middle class suburban upbringing) is supposedly negated by his acknowledging his ethnicity and family background.
discourse on this often throws up the “if he was a white Mick from Mayo would he still be there?” .. the truth is .. probably. our government are comprised of empty suits. no one takes any actual action on anything unless theyre told to do so by the EU. If it was Mick from Galway, there’d be plenty of Dail discussions, with the same results as this case .. not doing anything.
Mick from Galway yes Mayo no you know it
Did he break the law in Egypt? Fk knows but he wasn’t there on holiday that’s for sure and anyone who believes he was is an idiot. The family were there to support the MB and demonstrate against the coup. That much is pretty clear. Now beyond that, we’re into murky waters because it seems likely that he was arrested on fairly trumped up charges but at the end of the day. they are egyptian trumped up charges that the Irish govt isn’t in a place to do much about.
Certainly the Da isn’t above a bit of hyperbole when it comes to the case, a google search brought up this facebook post pretty quickly
“Sheikh Hussien Halawa, Secretary General of the European Council for Fatwa and the Imam of the largest Irish Mosque: Coup lords tried to make a compromise with the Irish government to recognize the coup so that the Egyptian authorities may set my three daughters free.
His three daughters (Omaima, Sumaia and Fatimah) and their brother Ibrahim, have all been arrested by Egyptian police in a protest after the #R4BIA massacre. All his children carry the Irish citizenship. Sheikh Halawa announced that he rejected the bargain since the freedom of millions is worthier than that of his own children.”
https://www.facebook.com/ISAC.Ireland/posts/717542738265880
Now that could be a horrific misquote or him being misrepresented but the man has form in terms of bigotry and hatred so who knows.
“The family were there to support the MB”
You’re an idiot.
The coup happened after they arrived in Cairo. They were on a holiday, just as they had been on previous holidays back with family. Unless you believe the da has a gifts akin to mystic meg, its pure coincidence that the coup coincided with the holiday.
http://markhumphrys.com/halawa.html
Have a read, massive anti-MB bias but not a huge Islamic bias either way.
Oh please! – Mark Humphrys doesn’t have an anti-islamic bias?
Even allowing for all of that – he’s got nothing that implies any wrong-doing (let alone legality) on Ibrahim’s part.
‘illegality’
I didn’t mention any wrongdoing whatsoever?
I’m merely pointing out the fantasy of the ‘they were tourists’ claim.
It’s no fantasy. It’s just the mundane facts of the matter. The family made repeated holiday trips to see family in Egypt. Ibrahim didn’t even participate in most of the initial square stuff his sisters did – opting to go do some tourist travelling elsewhere. Humphrys for all his bluster can’t support any claim of an intent to travel to protest, because there wasn’t one.
hex, you seem to know many details. Can you explain how Mr. Halawa Jr. (and his sisters) ended up speaking on the stage of such a huge protest?
“hex, you seem to know many details.”
Which means you don’t know know many details, yeah?
Not necessarily, you are just assuming it and I wouldn’t be bothered replying.
No I’m just calling out bullship when I see it.
You may dislike it, but “how did Mr. Halawa Jr. (and his sisters) end up speaking on the stage of such a huge protest?” is a valid question.
It’s a pretty dumb question tbh. Ibrahim’s sisters have been very clear as to how they ended up protesting against the ousting of the Egyptian government. It’s not particularly cryptic stuff. They were there on a holiday, there was a coup after they got there, and there was a mass protest against the coup. They opted to join that protest.
+1 Impressively dumb question.
Yeah, it is dumb, innit?
That’s the best way to kill an argument when there are no believable answers to offer.
Hex answered your dumb question just there and I answered your dumb question further up the page.
If you can’t comprehend the motivations to protest a military coup you find yourself in, which impacts your family, then that’s some failure of imagination at play. Or you’re wilfully sticking your head in the sand. I know which way my vote goes.
Mark Humphrys?!? The Irish Alex Jones except people have heard of Alex Jones? Excellent. That explains an awful lot about you.
I’ll wager Charlie Flanagan that you’re probably not useless but definitely full of s__t
you’re not exactly pressing all the buttons in relation to this case and there’s a good few r€asons why imo:
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/ireland-reaches-new-cattle-export-deal-with-egypt-1.2535954
Can’t go upsetting the natives now, can we?
There are Irish people in prison in Thailand; we still trade with them. Are you suggesting that we cut diplomatic ties with any country that detains an Irish citizen?
The Irish people in Thailand are actually guilty of crimes, or at a minimum, convicted of said crimes. They’re not prisoners of conscience. There’s your difference in a nutshell.
Halawa will (in theory) be put on trial. I’m not defending the huge delays in the case, or the Egyptian justice system in general, but if Ireland only engaged with countries with a similar justice system as ours, we would not have diplomatic relations with many countries at all.
It would be like the UK or USA refusing to trade with us because we don’t have legal abortion.
Not really – here’s a better analogy. If we locked up a UK national for three years without trial, because they were accused of NF sympathies, you could be sure that serious pressure would be brought to bear by the UK govt on our own.
No doubt they would. But the UK would be able to exert a lot more pressure on us than we can on Egypt; therein lies the rub.
We’re part of the EU, and consequently should be able to apply greater leverage.
The EU should carry more weight with Egypt than either Australia or Canada for instance – who both managed to extract their citizens from this mess.
I’m not sure how united the EU is as regards issuing statements on foreign policy based on the detention of one citizen from one member state, particularly one condemning a “friendly nation” in the Middle East.
In the case of Australia and Peter Greste, that was more clear-cut: locking up and convicting a foreign journalist on trumped-up charges is going to garner a lot more diplomatic sway among western governments than locking up someone who was involved in a protest movement.
Pretty united on statements, as demonstrated already:
THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT has voted in favour of a resolution that calls for the immediate and unconditional release of Irish prisoner Ibrahim Halawa.
The resolution was put forward by Irish MEPs and states that Halawa (20) could face the death penalty in Egypt. The resolution passed by 566 votes to 11.
Regarding penalties for detaining EU prisoners of conscience? Less clear.
Charges against Ibrahim are no less trumped up. And he was a minor – which should have generated some ‘diplomatic sway’.
The EP is the EP; having member states issue condemnations is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Ibrahim Halawa has been locked up for three years already; if Ireland’s fellow member states were going to rally around him, they probably would have already.
– none of this makes his detainment without trial any more just; its more that the optics of his plight are less likely to garner intenational support than that of Peter Greste.
The point is they *could* rally around him as evidenced by the statement from parliament.
I’m not denying that they could; but they have evidently decided not to.
‘I’m not denying that they could; but they have evidently decided not to. ‘
We know… You don’t always need to reply and say something to everything.
‘ It would be like the UK or USA refusing to trade with us because we don’t have legal abortion.’
It’s not like that at all.. and nobody threatened to refuse to trade with Egypt over this. Come on like seriously, with the inane comments.. You’re just waffling on for the sake of it.
“I’m not denying that they could; but they have evidently decided not to.”
Right but the point is they could, contrary to your argument.
I never for a moment suggested that the EU member states couldn’t get together to condemn and Halawa’s detention; merely that they probably won’t, regardless of how much politicking Charlie Flanagan does.
@ Anne – stick it up your hoop, I will reply whenever I feel like it, thank you v. much
The argument was put forward by Hex that we could put pressure on Egypt through the EU. You disputed this. When Hex backed up his argument with a statement from EU parliament, you backtracked and tried to make out the parliament was somehow separate to the EU. Now you’re backtracking again. If you have some problem with Halawa, just be honest and say it.
In order to apply diplomatic pressure to Egypt, there would need to be agreement at Council level, rather than a vote in the EP (the Parliament condemns stuff all the time, with very little effect).
I’m saying it’s very unlikely Ireland will convince the Council to pursue such an action.
Why would i have a problem with Halawa(?) – I have a problem with people who don’t understand how the EU functions.
It’s very simple.
1.Hex said we could put pressure on through the EU.
2. You argued this would not be possible. “I’m not sure how united the EU is as regards issuing statements on foreign policy based on the detention of one citizen”
3. Hex immediately shows you a united EU statement on just that.
4. You argue that a eu parliament statement is somehow different to an eu joint member statement.
5. I remind you that your original argument was wrong and that the EU actually could do something about this.
6. You make a new claim that you never said they couldn’t
7. I sum up your contradictory statements.
8. You double down and now claim that it’s just “unlikely” which was never the argument.
Your dismissal of the possible options to free Halawa, even after you’re proven wrong, leafs me to believe you have a highly fragile ego or you have suspicions about the Muslim man and you’re trying to present yourself as reasonable.
4. You argue that a eu parliament statement is somehow different to an eu joint member statement.
– it isn’t
Ok – if we accept your misguided view of the workings of the European institutions as correct, the entire diplomatic clout of the EU has already been brought to bear on the case, and Ibrahim Halawa is still being detained in prison.
– ergo, there is not some magical unexplored channel to get Halawa released (or at least tried), which was my original point.
“Anne – stick it up your hoop,”
Ah don’t be like that now. That’s very unbecoming sort of talk from you there.
I simply suggested you stop with the inane repeating of how things stand… and instead should suggest that the EU and the Irish government should be more effective in assisting this young Irish citizen locked up abroad indefinitely, for protesting.
If politicians are not acting the way we would like to them, we have to put pressure on them, not say, well it looks like they don’t give a fupp lads, what ja gonna do.
Similarly, we shouldn’t just accept how despotic regimes conduct their affects..because that’s how they conduct their affairs lads, what ja gonna do.
“it isn’t”
And it’s that kind of obsfucation which has me questioning your motives here. You said the EU doesn’t act as one as regards statements on foreign policy relating to single people and you were immediately shown an EU statement on foreign policy relating to a single person. And you’re STILL arguing. It’s incredible. The fact is, which you disputed and were subsequently proven wrong about, is that the EU *can* and *did* issue statements about foreign policy and could do more. You said they couldn’t and we’re immediately shown them doing just that. Your continued insistence that nothing can be done is proven wrong and now just baffling.
I like these little synopsiseses of events.. it’s more fascinating than watching paint dry.
I think he lost the debate when he said this –
‘the entire diplomatic clout of the EU has already been brought to bear on the case, and Ibrahim Halawa is still being detained in prison.
– ergo, there is not some magical unexplored channel to get Halawa released (or at least tried), which was my original point. ‘
Ergo, they’ve done their best lads, what ja gonna do.
Precisely. It genuinely comes across like he doesn’t *want* anything done about Halawa.
Ok.
– I think that there needs to be a better European module in Ireland’s CSPE course, because it is clear that the workings of the institutions are quite misunderstood by the population at large.
And more obsfucation from Rob. He’s proven wrong on the EU’s capabilities so now he’s resorting to the above. I’m embarrassed for him.
Great.
“Precisely. It genuinely comes across like he doesn’t *want* anything done about Halawa.”
It does seem that way… He’s probably just trying to seem intelligent too.
Hex; ‘The EU could do something about Halawa’
Rob; ‘I’m not sure the EU issues statements on foreign policy when it comes to one single person.
Hex; ‘Here’s an EU statement on exactly that.’
Rob; ‘Well that’s different.’
Me; ‘Your point was that they don’t issue statements and then hex showed you one’
Rob; ‘You lot don’t know how the EU works’
Sad.
I don’t mean that in a snide way either Rob.. You just seem to know where you stand on this, other than wanting to appear like you know sh*t.
Hex; ‘The EU could do something about Halawa’
– ok then, they already have, and, by Hex’s own admission, nothing has happened.
When Hex said that, your original answer was ‘not sure that’s possible.’ You were then shown them doing the *exact* thing you said wasn’t possible. You backtracked and claimed you never said it wasn’t possible. When that was shown to be nonsense, you claimed, as above that they did all they could. And you’re claiming *others* don’t get how the EU works? Amazing. I genuinely can’t believe you’re still here after being proven wrong several times.
Lol at people quoting Humphries
[IMG]http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/images/humphrey/humphreyapron550.jpg[/IMG}
oops!
http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/images/humphrey/humphreyapron550.jpg
He’s not irish
Mark Humphrys? Sadly, he is.
Ibrahim? He certainly is. Born and bred in Dublin.
Any truth to this, would you know?
https://twitter.com/markhumphrys/status/749208626955517952
I’m leaning towards not giving him too much credibility considering his most current post reminding us that not all Palestinians are evil.
I listened to this a few weeks back on RTE radio 1 if anyone’s interested –
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2016/0602/792798-cairo-cellmates/
The podcast is available there still.
In August 2013, Ibrahim Halawa was arrested in Cairo. He has since spent the last 3yrs in an Egyptian Prison. Acclaimed journalist Peter Greste, cellmate of Ibrahim Halawa for 7 months, now gives a searing eyewitness account of this controversial case.