de5a8c445cc255ffe1e69d708cd230fb__20170315122454

Lughan Deane, of trade union IMPACT, writes:

We’re asking working women in Ireland to post a #ClockedOut selfie at 15.50 today (and every day) to mark the moment the Pay Gap kicks in – that is, the moment Irish women effectively stop being paid in comparison with their male colleagues.

FIGHT!

121 thoughts on “Out The Gap

  1. Eric cartman

    The gender pay gap is a myth, childless women in ireland out earn men year for year with comparible experience, the gap only sets in when a woman has a family.

    more trade union nonsense.

    Reply
      1. Cian

        See http://www.nwci.ie/download/pdf/nwci_pre_budget_submission_2014.pdf Page 8. It says:
        “Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points.”
        The National Women’s Council of Ireland are saying that (childless) women earn 17% MORE then (childless) men. But if you look at the document this is difficult to see because the minus on the “-17%” is actually shown on the end of the line, and the “17” is on the start of the next:

        So it look like:
        [motherhood.] Figures from the OECD
        show that in Ireland the Gender Pay
        Gap for women with no children is –
        17% but this increases significantly to
        14% for women with at least one child
        – a jump of 31 percentage points.

        Reply
        1. Holden MaGroin

          What happens now does he have to comeback and disprove your stats with a link of his own?
          This is so exciting.

          Reply
        1. Rob_G

          +1

          I think that there is an important conversation about how we make work schedules more family-friendly in general (which would of course be good for all genders), but saying “every woman earns 20% less than every man” does not add anything meaningful to the discussion.

          Reply
          1. Spaghetti Hoop

            Agreed. It’s hyperbole.
            Plus I love your term ‘all genders’ – like there are more that we haven’t discovered yet ;)

          2. ahjayzis

            Can we just call it a greater work-life balance? I’d also like more flexible working arrangements even though I’ve not spawned progeny.

          3. mildred st. meadowlark

            That’s a great point ahj.

            It’s a real pity that home/family life is frequently sacrificed for work. The family is touted as the centre of our society, but our lives do not reflect this, which is a wee bit sad, really.

          4. Starina

            wellllllll….actually there can be more than two – hermaphrodites, for instance, or people with xx genitalia but xy chromosomes. rare, but not impossible.
            but i digress.

          5. Starina

            sex, i mean. more than two sexes. as well as more than two genders. see, i wish we had an “edit comment” function

          6. Rob_G

            see, this is why I said ‘all genders’ – to avoid tiresome circular debates like this…

          7. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Gender” is a human concept. There are as many genders as we want there to be. Your feelings, in this case the anxiety you feel when you don’t understand something, is not objective reality.

          8. Clampers Outside!

            Nope, there are two.

            If the current definition proposed by some social scientists is true and that “sex” is whatever is between your pants and “gender” is what is in your brain/what gender you just happen to feel like or as it is in Canada, gender is what your outward expression is when going to the shops and can change from one day to the next or one hour to the next.
            What it comes down to is that ones genitals aren’t a social construct, and neither are ones brain waves.
            Yes, sex is biological, and yes, gender is also biological.

            Please don’t mix “gender” with “gender roles”.

            If you dont like my tuppence on it, look up Prof Jordan Peterson of UoT, Canada or watch this… https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/jordan-peterson-exposes-the-creeping-dictatorship-of-gender-rights-movement – Link to TV programme discussion in this, well worth watching.

          9. Starina

            More alt-rightism from Clamps. and linking to a pro-life site? i’m actually genuinely surprised at that.

          10. MoyestWithExcitement

            “the-creeping-dictatorship-of-gender-rights-movement”

            Yeah ok. Someone who has a vagina and wants to be seen as male is oppressing *you*. Ok. And, apparently, whatever form your skin between your legs takes directly affects how you think as well! But yer man is a professor so this definitely isn’t hilarious quackery.

          11. MoyestWithExcitement

            “More alt-rightism from Clamps. and linking to a pro-life site? i’m actually genuinely surprised at that.”

            Yeah, but he’s polite to some people here so it’s grand. Belitting human beings for their gender identity is Just Another Opinion.

            PS; Isn’t funny how all the people whining about snowflakes think every opinion is equal (*their* opinion, they mean) and scream if you mention the words ‘sexism’ and ‘racism’?

          12. Clampers Outside!

            Skip the first link and go straight to the video, I’m sure you are both adult enough to click onto the website without panicking. I am not prolife myself, and it didn’t kill me.

            When you get there, as instructed, there is a link to a TV discussion – that’s my intended bit for you to look at.

            – – – –

            Star…. really?
            – Is everything ‘alt right’ that isn’t left?
            – Where do the left leaning pro-lifers go?
            – Hell… where do the right wing pro-choicers go?
            – On what basis do you call that website ‘alt right’? I am intrigued. Or do you just throw around labels willy nilly?

            – – – – – –

            Are you OK Moyest… is you triggered by that link or something? I can give you a direct link to the TV discussion if you wish. Just let me know.
            Sorry I couldn’t answer the comment directly… it seems you have gone off on one.

            ” Yeah ok. Someone who has a vagina and wants to be seen as male is oppressing *you*. ” – eh… where did you get that out of :)

            ” Ok. And, apparently, whatever form your skin between your legs takes directly affects how you think as well! ” – I shaved at the weekend and am chafing currently so not getting your message, do elaborate.

            Yer man is an eminent professor yeah. He knows his subject, and regularly challenges his own views through discussions with opposing views… unlike gender and feminist profs who peer review each others work and dont take challenges and teach their courses as a given doctrine. So yeah, he’s well worth listening to by comparison to most sociologists.

        2. ahjayzis

          Gender: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

          Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

          They really are two different things.

          Reply
          1. Clampers Outside!

            We will have to agree to differ. I don’t want getting bogged down in a spat on this. I don’t believe the modern made up stuff that so called gender studies “scholars” purport.

            Because science. Real science, not social science.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            Yes, buddy. Real science is the science you agree with of course. That article you linked me to talking about the dictatorship of the gender rights movement (LOL) is real science. Sure.

          3. ahjayzis

            I’m no expert on it and a lot of it leaves me kind of puzzled too. I have no fupping idea what a genderqueer is and cringe when someone well-meaning refers to me as ‘queer’.

            But the whole gender is a social construct rings true for me. Any form-filling issues can be resolved by putting ‘Sex” as the question rather than “gender” anyway. Let people be what he/she/they wanna be.

            And it is kind of science. Biology deals with sex, sociology and anthropology deal with gender.

          4. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Let people be what he/she/they wanna be”

            Seriously, like. How in the fudge is anyone put out because someone wants to be called cisfemale or whatever? Really. How are YOU (the royal you….and Clamps) affected by that?

            You are a mind in a bag of flesh. Anything after that is man made concept.

          5. ReproBertie

            And therefore science, real science, not social science, knows that gender is fluid and wouldn’t be interested in setting hard and fast rules around it.

          6. Clampers Outside!

            I hear you Ahjaysiz. And I agree… Let people be what he/she/they wanna be.

            On the science bit tho, the way social science has been pushing subjectivity to replace objectivity the social sciences will end up losing all and any claim on being a real ‘science’ of any type more and more every day.
            I’ve a degree in Sociology myself, trust me when I say, I’m not happy to see it go down the cistern of totally subjective bullpoo myself…. but that’s where it is headed.

            – – – –
            @Moyest “How in the fudge is anyone put out because someone wants to be called cisfemale or whatever? Really.” – when it starts getting legal the problems begin. Again Jordan Peterson does a great number of discussions on the ridiculous idea of gender pronouns and how that is and will affect laws in Canada…
            This video on political correctness (and gender pronouns in that context and context of the law) are discussed.

          7. Clampers Outside!

            ” And therefore science, real science, not social science, knows that gender is fluid and wouldn’t be interested in setting hard and fast rules around it. ”

            Sorry what? Because some species have evolved this particular evolutionary wizardry means all species have evolved like this?

            Your logic needs to be elaborated… seriously… because it makes no sense. Yes, we all share genes, we all share 50% of our genes with a banana, but that doesn’t mean a banana is similar to a human in any other way. I know, I could have used an animal to demonstrate the point, but the point is pretty ridiculous, and needed some mockery, in fairness.

          8. bertie blenkinsop

            Oh Mildred, I wish I’d known you years ago, I’d have made you SUCH fantastic mixtapes :D

          9. Nigel

            And in Broadsheet News today, Clampers calls his nipples ‘Bertie,’ and he has three of them.

          10. Starina

            @Clampers – wait. you have a degree in Sociology?

            ok, two questions….

            1) How do you reconcile that with your dismisal of “social sciences”
            2) Did you ever lecture in DIT?

          11. ReproBertie

            There’s no need for me to clarify anything but I will.
            “I don’t believe the modern made up stuff that so called gender studies “scholars” purport. Because science. Real science, not social science.”

            And yet, science, real science, not social science, has no issue with gender fluidity.

            I think that’s pretty clear.

      1. Eric cartman

        If I decided to take a year off work to have a kid I wouldnt expect to earn the same as somebody who didnt. THis gap isnt about gender, its about the people who keep working earn more than those who skip out for a while.

        Reply
        1. Listrade

          “Skip out for a while” Sheesh.

          You’d be welcome to take a year off to look after a kid, except it isn’t set up to allow for that and that’s part of the problem.

          There are all kinds of issues that cause the gap, but there is a gap. The size of the gap isn’t compensated by the length of maternity leave. It’s the ongoing issue of raising a kid or kids. Cost of child care, schools that finish at 13:10, school holidays, after school, etc. It’d be ok if there was equal incentive or flexibility for either or both to support this, but there isn’t and it is often with the mother to look for part-time work or give up work all together in order to support this.

          Having said that, the Morgan Mckinley survey still finds a gap even in areas of equal experience and education.

          Reply
          1. Clampers Outside!

            ” The size of the gap isn’t compensated by the length of maternity leave. It’s the ongoing issue of raising a kid or kids. Cost of child care, schools that finish at 13:10, school holidays, after school, etc. ”

            Once the kid is born and she returns to work all these things affect both parents.

            ” and it is often with the mother to look for part-time work or give up work ” –
            [ *anecdote wanrning! :) ]
            I have two friends who are stay at home dads. Both college educated, one even coming top of his class, his year, and top of his final year and received a medal for best student in the college…. couldn’t believe it myself. He’s a stay at home dad now. My point…. the Mum’s were earning more, and it made financial sense. That was a choice agreed between the couples.
            Stating that it is ” often with the mother to look for part-time… ” is not a reason, it’s a statement, in fairness. That’s me point.

            ” It’d be ok if there was equal incentive or flexibility for either or both ” Hear, hear!

            Feminists need to give up the idea that they see themselves as the primary care giver.
            After all, they spent enough time arguing that a gay man in a relationship can raise a kid just as well as a woman in a hetero couple in the run up to the MarRef.
            So they have no reason to argue that women should be primary care givers, or that the mother should be prioritised as the primary care giver. If they did this, and practiced what they preach, it would help in achieving by them arguing the case for ” equal incentive or flexibility for either or both” around chil care prioritisation.

            My few tuppence

          2. Listrade

            @clampers, they do affect both parents. I give my own anecdote of my own as to the difficulties in a father getting flexible hours over my female colleagues.

            “Stating that it is ” often with the mother to look for part-time… ” is not a reason, it’s a statement, in fairness. That’s me point.”

            Its a statement of fact though. It is mostly the mother who takes the break to look after the kids and it is then mostly the mother who looks for alternative work afterwards to accommodate the child around school, etc. Even with one child, school hours and holidays alone make it difficult, with two its like a second mortgage.

            An issue is that the pay gap starts once the woman is married, not when they are pregnant. Married men earn more than single men. Its not just about having kids, it is before kids even come in. There is an issue with the potential for a woman to have children and the perceived burden that then comes with maternity leave, extended leave, flexible working hours.

          3. Rob_G

            @ Clampers:

            – but do women really always ‘see themselves as the primary caregiver’, or is more that society has decided they are?

          4. Clampers Outside!

            I hear you Listrade, but a couple of points.

            ” An issue is that the pay gap starts once the woman is married, not when they are pregnant. ” …I’ve not seen anything to reference this claim anywhere before. Can you point me to it?

            ” Married men earn more than single men. ”
            You have to take the psychological motivation factor of the married man into that too.

            It is known that men in families are motivated to work harder and longer hours to provide for their family. Men without families are willing to do work that is less stressful and pays less as they don’t need the big bucks to pay for their own solo lifestyle.

            In effect, we have a double whammy she takes a dip because of leave, and he earns more because he’s motivated to provide for the family.

          5. Clampers Outside!

            ” @Clampers: but do women really always ‘see themselves as the primary caregiver’, or is more that society has decided they are? ”

            Is that an intentionally loaded question… :) anyway…
            One cannot answer the question on behalf of all “women” nor suggest they all “see” things, life, the same way. They are individuals.

            On the second bit, regarding “society”. Of course society, or more accurately, the anthropological evolution to the current society, played that part of giving roles to men and women.

            The straight answer:
            “Women will never give up control of their own children”
            Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/fatherhood/11434461/Do-women-really-want-men-to-play-an-equal-role-in-parenting.html

      2. Rob_G

        This is what the conversation should focus on, IMO – why it is that women are deciding to work less when the kids come along, and not men? And do we have the supports in place to make this change, etc… rather than “men get paid more than women”, which isn’t really supported by evidence.

        Reply
        1. Eric cartman

          I think its a culture thing. We’re all about maximising what we can abuse. Dealing with several employers they say that women from the US, Eastern europe and other places will work until a week before theyre due and be back in work a week or 2 after , almost no downtime, use a temp agency or other member of staff to fulfill their roles.

          Whereas a lot of Irish women will take a full 9- 12 month block of time off starting 3 months before the kid is due , and in the case of 2 women who did the same job in one office , they both got pregnant within a month of each other , left 3 months before the kid was born, came back 9 months after the kid was born just to say they were pregnant and that they would be off for another year in 3 months time. so over a 2 year period both of these women worked just under 3 months leaving the employer unable to sack them and have to use 2 under qualified temp replacements.

          Reply
  2. Eamonn Clancy

    My missus earns more than me, my sister earns more than me. Can I take part or will this mess up the myth?

    Reply
          1. Starina

            Basically, the message to women is this: don’t have children because your salary will never recover, but don’t not have children either, cos it’s selfish to choose a career (or anything) over children.

            I would be VERY interested to see any studies on the effect of extended paternity leave on men’s wages versus the effect on women’s. Do men suffer the same setback, I wonder?

          2. Starina

            and I say “extended” because standard paternity leave is, what, two weeks? a week? So by “extended” I’m talking about the men who decide to do the 6-12-month leave while their wife returns to work.

          3. Listrade

            “I would be VERY interested to see any studies on the effect of extended paternity leave on men’s wages versus the effect on women’s”

            Only real reference is Sweden which has a much greater paternity leave and culture of it being used. But you also have to add in schools and child care policies to that mix and it has a much lower pay gap.

            So the one country that has effectively tried to introduce policies and support for raising a family has effectively shut the gap. But its only a sample size of one.

            It’s not as easy as saying the issue is children, but it does seem to come back to that.

            Like the perception that childless women will at some point have kids means that the “burden” of a replacement during the maternity period can effect them getting promotions. Studies show that the gap starts to appear once the woman is married, not when she is pregnant.

            Perception that being at a desk for 12 hours a day is the only way of showing a commitment to an employer. Women tend to do most of the part time work and less hours in general due to them doing most of the family care. This could be why the tend to get lower bonuses.

            At my last employer I looked to change my working hours when my son was born, mostly because it was easier for me to do the creche run and I wanted to be home early enough. It wasn’t easy and was denied several times and even brought up at my annual review as to the “perception” of me not being at my desk until after 6pm. I ask HR to look into it as these comments hadn’t been made of my female colleagues and they hadn’t had their requests refused.

            Perception of the female being the main child carer are the problem.

          4. Starina

            fascinating. and i agree. it’s quite scary, actually, as a 34 year old woman, to think that i mightn’t be considered for a position because of perceptions about my biological clock.

    1. Fgshill

      DO your missus and your sister do the same job as you? If they do, you should definitely take part. If not, your comment might explain your low pay grade :)

      Reply
  3. sqoid

    If some time could be spent looking into the massive inadequacies of that “study” rather than re-tweeting it’s grossly over-simplified conclusion, maybe something could be learned about pay inequality.

    Hopefully as more women move in to STEM fields this particular myth may eventually die off.

    Reply
    1. sqoid

      I’ve actually gone and done the very thing I was criticising there. This seems to be a different figure being used from a different study.

      Reply
  4. Rob_G

    If the gender pay gap was as clearly-delineated and simple as this would suggest, why are there any unemployed women, at all? Surely companies would be leaving money on the table by hiring a man, when they could just hire a woman to do exactly the same job while only paying them 80% of the salary?

    Reply
  5. Jake38

    A fantastic example of the way statistics can be manipulated to make nonsense appear somehow real. Pay discrimination on the basis of gender is illegal.

    Reply
        1. Eric cartman

          +1
          if anyone here can find any case where a man and a woman in the exact same job with the exact same skillset and qualifications are being paid differently, please bring it to court.

          Reply
          1. ahjayzis

            This probably happens quite a lot, gender aside.

            Most small-medium companies and basically all professional service firms don’t have public sector or large corporate style pay grading – I started my job on an average wage for the company, left for a year to do consultancy with a big pay bump, then came back keeping that pay bump. I’m paid more than I really have a right to had I stayed here for the year – doing the same job as my colleagues.

            It’s what you can argue for / threaten with / leave and come back to, your employer isn’t benchmarking you against all your colleagues, he’s saying what’s it worth to get you / keep you / bring you back.

          2. ahjayzis

            My point being pay in most places is totally ad-hoc – what do they ask for in an interview – do they have a competing offer you need to beat – are you hiring someone in a competitive job market and having to give them a salary higher than the person you hired when jobs were more scarce.

            And what is the ‘same job’ – no one really does the same job as anyone else, you bring different methodologies and experience, you might be better at the ‘same job’.

            What I’ve read about before and found among my women friends is they’re far more kind of bald-faced honest in their CV’s, even downplaying their accomplishments – and they tend not to apply for jobs they perceive as beyond their experience. I’ve rewritten CV’s for female flatmates and colleagues before that totally undersold their abilities. Let’s quit instilling self-defeating hyper-modesty into girls.

            https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified

          3. Clampers Outside!

            The reason is given in the Bloomberg article… less experienced.

            Are we to compensate female colleagues with less experience now…. or what are you trying to say… what is Bloomberg trying to say….

            They’ve gone and compared one persons experience to another. Stated that one was more experienced than the other. Then the piece moaned that the less experienced person isn’t paid as much…. Eh… wha… seriously…. ?

          4. Eric cartman

            They were looking to cut costs anyway. The board decided those terms beforehand. They literally made a story out of nothing, if the new CEO was male it wouldnt have even got a second glance, let alone an article. The media just write to suit an agenda these days, there are no conclusions based on evidence anymore, you draw a conclusion and tailor everything else around it now.

          5. Deluded

            You dropped the ball there Pluto…
            The article is about a trend in capping executive pay, it states that the lack of experience was the reason given but that because she was a woman, the first woman CEO in that field, it looked bad.
            Had you gone to another source for that story you would have found that:
            “Other recent appointees in the industry hadn’t led a company before, including Soriot, Novartis ’s Joe Jimenez — who came from a consumer goods background, like Ms Walmsley –and Roche Holding ’s Severin Schwan.”
            That was from The Irish Times

            You also distracted from Ahjayzis’ observations, tut-tut.

            Lads spoof on their CVs and are proud of it. “Fake it ’til you make it” and some continue to fake it and get away with it.
            They are “good delegators” in contrast to the “bossy bitches”.

            Women generally stick to the Angela Merkel maxim of “be more than you seem” which requires humility and strength in contrast to whooping bravado. A lot of companies actively reward integrity so some women do extremely well but obviously there are operations that have different values.

  6. newsjustin

    It does seem highly unlikely and illegal that woman are paid less for the same job.

    But it’s a sticky notion. Certainly in large organisations with clear pay scales, etc it’s very unlikely. It could be more likely where you have e.g. two small companies, each employing a sales manager – same experience but one male one female. Without a transparent wage market, the woman could be being paid less. But so could the man. And that’ll happen regardless of gender. And the solution is to negotiate a raise or move. Same for everyone.

    Reply
    1. Spaghetti Hoop

      Correct. Even though the salary scales have been benchmarked, people may still receive raises based on performance and/or simply having the neck to ask for one, or indeed good old nepotism. Twenty years ago there were clear irregularities and gender discrimination in pay….and I experienced it….but IBEC, legislation and more robust human resource practices have greatly improved salary equality. Anyone going for a job should question Company HR policies in relation to equal pay before accepting the position.

      Reply
      1. Cian

        Weird, but in all the companies I have worked in, Human Resources has been predominately (as in 75% or more) female. And in all for the last 15 years the head of HR was a woman. Have other people experienced this? (A quick Google seems to support this…)

        IF the majority of HR people are female, across all companies, are they not best placed to ensure gender-related pay discrimination doesn’t go on?

        Reply
        1. Spaghetti Hoop

          I’m not one for observing which genders do which jobs…..but now that you mention it, everyone (male and female) has a responsibility to enforce the law, bet that in HR or health and safety.. Plus I can reveal an observed truth; women don’t necessarily stick up for other women – they can be highly competitive with other women in the workplace. What I am interested in seeing are the type of companies that DO engage in pay discrimination and get away with it. The type of company that has these people taking selfies today by their clocks.

          Reply
  7. postmanpat

    OH!! THE GENDER GAP SHUFFLE . WE’RE IN A HEAP OF TROUBLE , DO’IN THE GANDER GAP SHUFFLE, YESSURRRRR!!

    Reply
  8. Sheik Yahbouti

    Lughan, you’re fighting a losing battle – have a look at the comments posted here by guys who really resent their loss of privilege. Despair not, time will grind them down.

    Reply
    1. Clampers Outside!

      “guys who really resent their loss of privilege.”

      Please, do go on…. can you explain how you see guys moaning about any loss of any supposed privilege or are you just spouting, literally, vacuous feminist claims and accusations.

      Thanks.

      Reply
      1. Kieran NYC

        “can you explain how you see guys moaning about any loss of any supposed privilege”

        No, you just see them attacking women all the time.

        Reply
  9. Peter Dempsey

    I didn’t realise that this was so prevalent. In my job we have clearly defined pay scales and salary ranges for each role. There aren’t different scales for men and women in my company but obviously we’re a minority.

    Reply
  10. kellma

    Ya, it’s not a gender gap, it’s a parent-gap, that is largely weighted towards women because they spend more time out of the workforce than men when the babies start coming and that mostly because only women can take maternity leave. There are moves to giving more supported leave for the men and parental leave is available to both but in my experience, it is usually the women who takes it and who goes for the shorter working week or the part-time job. I can’t speak for every woman with a child out there but personally, that was my choice. My priorities changed when my two little girls came to this world and getting my bosses job and running the world just didn’t seem like such an attractive proposition anymore….So my view on that is “I’m not bothered about my male colleague who earns a few % more than me because I effectively spent nearly 2 years out of the workforce and I work a shorter week and the payback is I get to spend more time with my girls and that fills me with a happiness that is priceless…”

    Reply
  11. Anomanomanom

    Well I can tell you one thing, all manager and Hr positions expect 3 are women in my job. CEO has left, she was female, replaced with a female. Hr Manager same thing. And all bar one person in hr and 2 in finance/payroll are all female. So the pay gap is real, its just in favour of females where I work.

    Reply
    1. Deluded

      There are a number of commenters here asserting similar things, which suggests that some companies must be heavily skewed the other way to explain the stats.

      Reply
      1. Anomanomanom

        Iv no problem with it, more than likely they are better than which ever male applied, so no problem there. Its when they get hired, either gender for that matter, just because of their particular gender.

        Reply
        1. Deluded

          Are HR applicants predominantly female?
          I know there have been similar discussions regarding nurses, primary school teachers etc.

          Reply
    2. Spaghetti Hoop

      Why would you assume that a HR Manager would willingly allow/enforce a staff member to earn more than another doing the same job, simply because they are of the same gender?

      Reply

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