A Free Ibrahim Halwas rally last month at the Egypt embassy in ballsbridge, Dublin 4

“…It would be dishonest and dangerous to say the welcome his release provokes is equivocal. His association with the Muslim Brotherhood must colour it.

That organisation’s long-standing objectives are diametrically opposed to the tolerance and inclusivity this society expects and cherishes.

On his return, Mr Halawa should clarify his relationship with that organisation and hopefully that will allow him lead a full and happy life in Ireland. We should not be apologetic or in any way reticent about asking for that clarification.

Editorial, The Irish Examiner today


The Irish Examine
r.

Tough on unproven crime.

Tough on the hypothetical cause of unproven crime.

Please clarify – Ibrahim Halawa acquitted (Irish Examiner)

Yesterday: Ibrahim’s Acquitted

80 thoughts on “Unforgiving

  1. John

    The Muslim Brotherhood won an election in Egypt and were ousted in a coup. The majority of people in Egypt and in many Middle Eastern countries want political Islam. Should they be punished for that?

    Unfortunately the choice in the Middle East is between secularists who run bloated, corrupt regimes (Egypt/the Gulf) or Islamists who are seen as less corrupt.

    As for Ibrahim, he was the victim of a deeply unpleasant Egyptian state. The Muslim Brotherhood would argue it’s far more true to the tenets of Islam than Sisi. I am not a fan of Islam or Islamists, but the Examiner’s editorial is bizarre.

    Reply
    1. snowey

      While what you say is spot on and correct.
      The political islam they want is a direct opposition to what we have here in Ireland (and most of the west)
      He’d rather not welcome somebody like that back.

      While sitting 4 year awaiting trial is by no way a good thing , the lad does has questions to answer as to what he was doing there and who the real Halawa (and family are)

      he may have been born here but if he preaches the doctrine of the MB then he isn’t irish and has rejected our society.

      I applaud the Examiner for asking the questions – no other media in this country has asked.
      These are legit concerns.

      Reply
      1. Alastair

        Booba-loobies.

        He’s Irish, having been born and raised here (and educated in a multi denominational system, for what it’s worth). Even if he were to subscribe to everything the MB advocate for, which is by no means certain – his history pre-arrest seems to be primarily apolitical, he’s still Irish, and as long as the MB remain a legitimate political group, focussed on non-violent advocacy for their platform, then he!/ equally entitled to support, lobby on behalf, of, and even run for office on their platform. Plenty of local objectionable political platforms too, but nobody getting their citizenship disputed on the back of them. Pure xenophobic guff.

        Reply
        1. ShankillFalls

          @Alastair Not that it really matters but according to his profile on RTÉ he went to a Roman Catholic primary and secondary school. Not very multi denominational.

          Reply
  2. AssPants

    That is a big welcome home by the Irish Examiner.

    I wonder will they question Irish Citizens motivation to return to Ireland to participate in any political act, be it voting in GE, or voting on statutory amendments. Maybe they have a “hard” border on entering and leaving Cork City, that way the Editor of the Irish Examiner can screen everybody as they come and go.

    Unless, maybe everybody in Cork is politically deaf and chose not to participate in political and social changes.

    Reply
    1. Anomanomanom

      Better to be silent when the only thing you speak is nonsense. How in anyway what so ever is questioning him over the brotherhood the same as any unfunny point you tried to make.

      Reply
      1. AssPants

        The tongue in cheek comments are a reflection of those elements of society which subscribe to news and topical issues from social media; and were a lot people nowadays seems to base their opinion on the tone of the social media feed in their phone.

        You can suggest I am trying to be funny/unfunny; rather I am pointing to the common habit of most young people now, which will most definitely shape their individual opinions later in life. And I doubt they will be of any valuable substance.

        In the meantime, and frankly it is quite a shameful indictment on people asking questions they themselves can’t acknowledge when in a functioning democracy people are allowed to express their views and that’s what Halawa claims he was doing. A court has accepted these claims.

        Is that not enough for Irish people; do we need to shout out our disapproval that this chap actually has a voice for his believes and accuse him of whatever the tabloids headlines find sells the most papers that day!

        Reply
    1. Rob_G

      No it isn’t.

      You can be against locking people up without trial for four years, and also be against the aims of the Muslim Brotherhood at the same time.

      Reply
      1. Mysterybeat

        The guy was found not guilty of any terrorist crimes, in a country where being a member of the Muslim Brotherhood is a crime. so he’s innocent.
        I don’t have to explain my political views to anyone, why should he?

        Reply
        1. Rob_G

          Well, you’re right; this is a free country, and no-one is under any obligation to explain their political views to anyone.

          But I don’t see how this is the editorial equivalent of saying “I’m not racist, but…”

          Reply
          1. Mysterybeat

            The editorial accepts his innocence, accepts he should be coming home, and then says “ah but we should be asking him about those rumours he’s a terrorist, right?”
            You could argue my analogy is a bit ham-fisted, but I’m not an experienced newspaper editor!

          2. Fact Checker

            I am glad he is out. The conditions he was held in were deplorable and the judicial process appears farcical.

            On his return, it would be interesting if RTÉ or any other media outlets would ask him the following:

            1) What were his parents’ views on him (a minor at the time) participating in political protests in a highly volatile security climate?
            2) There are many social and religious freedoms enjoyed by his fellow Irish citizens that are not available in Egypt. What does he think about these? Would he like to see them extended to his fellow Egyptian citizens?

          3. A snowflake's chance in hell

            The manipulative framing of misleading counter-narratives and predictable “question” framing is the mark of the truly scurrilous. As others point out, it’s not merely enough that this Irish citizen is found wholly innocent after a flawed and utterly disreputable judicial process, he must be found guilty in some other way, e.g. of not being pictured eating Tayto Crisps or appearing in photographs with women not dressed in bikinis.

    2. AssPants

      Fubb’n brilliant.

      I don’t hear any outcry from say the Irish Refugee Council, Immigrant Council, Migrant Rights or any such group.

      Maybe Ibraham is not trending on Twitter this week…..

      Although, maybe he is trending as to be anti-supportive, looking in the wrong channels so I am. It’s so hard to keep up with what is cool to be outraged by, and what is cool to support; each and every fubb’n week it changes.

      Reply
  3. bisted

    …I’d be a lot more concerned about the forces who managed to overthrow a democratically elected government than I would about a schoolboy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time…but it’s nice to see the spirit of the Skebereen Eagle is being kept on by the Examiner…

    Reply
    1. GiggidyGoo

      Except, in his mind he was in the right place. Addressing a rally. His problem was it was the wrong time, and he was jailed for four years.

      Reply
      1. bisted

        …of course…this is Ireland…where addressing a rally opposed to the ruling parties wouldn’t be seen as a serious crime…where you wouldn’t have politically motivated show trials…

        Reply
          1. bisted

            …don’t forget the bit about political grandstanding by a former Tanaiste in an attempt to criminalise (successful) protest…

    2. rotide

      Claiming he was in the wrong place in the wrong time is as much of a fabrication as claiming he’s a terrorist hellbent on bringing sharia law to ireland.

      Reply
          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Right wing rob and rotide trying to cast more aspertions over the Muslim guy? Is anyone actually surprised?

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            You still claiming the Irish Times isn’t right wing, by the way? After they call for an innocent brown man to prove himself to racists like you and Rob G?

  4. Gorev Mahagut

    Hear that? If the Irish Examiner don’t like the cut of your jib, you will be required to give an account of yourself if you want to be ALLOWED live “a full and happy life in Ireland”. Is that a threat or is that a threat? I wonder if Sinn Féin voters will have to give an account of where they stand on that party’s complicated relationship with morality, or does Mr Halawa (not guilty of any crime in this country or anywhere else) get special treatment because he’s got brown skin? (Of course, any resemblance between this editorial and the poison-pen letters of a racist lynch mob are entirely coincidental).

    Reply
  5. Andrew

    Well The Examiner is in the process of being taken over by the Irish Times so I reckon the editor reckons his/her number is up anyway.
    The Irish Times won’t be keeping them and a lot of the other staff on.
    Interesting times in Irish media circles. It’s dog eat dog.

    Reply
    1. MoyestWithExcitement

      Yep;

      rotide
      September 19, 2017 at 2:36 pm
      Go out for a cornetto, end up in a mosque sit-in.

      Could happen to anyone

      Reply
  6. Tony O'Leary

    WTF?!
    Martin Ferris, Sinn Fein TD, admitted member of the IRA and involved in gun and bomb smuggling.
    Martin Ferris, Sinn Fein TD who welcomed the killers of Jerry McCabe on their release from prison.
    Should anyone who attends a Sinn Fein Rally “clarify their relationship” with an organisation that has had a very fluid relationship with the laws of our land.

    Reply
  7. Milo

    Excellent point by the Examiner. About time the professional journalists in this country grow a pair. The public will thank them for it as has happened proper journalism in the US and UK. We have had enough of being ruled by the sensitivities of the ignorant mob who confuse their opinions with truth.

    Reply
    1. Nigel

      Wait are we being ruled by mob who think he’s Bin Laden reborn or the mob who were concerned about how he was being treated and the fairness of his trial?

      Reply
        1. Nigel

          Honestly I was waving my pitchfork with a mob to make avocados gender neutral but I got turned round and ended up in a brutal inter-mob battle over who was the best Green Lantern.

          Reply
          1. Warden of the Snort

            When they came for the avocado gender neutral advocates, I stood up and said actually I’m more part of the quinoa mob myself

      1. Milo

        It doesn’t matter which mob. Thats the nature the beast and its most dangerous trait. The mob morphs and lurches from emotion to emotion. Today its some baby on a beach in Turkey, tomorrow its some asshat who speaks their mind on Jews. Whatever it is the mob will find it and bleat its concern before swiftly moving on to the next “issue of extreme but fleeting importance”. That is why the mob can never be trusted, its a fickle as a chameleon, a ruthless Tadhg an dá thaobh, the ultimate hurler on the ditch, bending and changing with the wind.

        Reply
        1. Nigel

          It’s almost as if you’re better off not conflating every movement or controversy or kerfuffle or craze into indistinguishable mobs, but to use your own judgement and moral compass to determine what is right and what is important for yourself rather than running scared from the mass democratisation of opinion which is neither good nor bad in itself but certainly has as many drawbacks as it does advantages.

          Reply
    2. Blonto

      If they want to grow a pair then they should bring the politicians to task for failing miserably at their jobs. Or bring the gardai to task for the numerous scandals (breathalyser, Mary Boyle, Shane O’Farrell, McCabe and the other whistleblower, Commissioners lying and “losing”mobile phones…….). Or do something about the impending rebirth of Irish Water. Or perhaps the shitty state of the main stream media. Or the general ineptitude in the civil service.
      There’s a shed load more wrong with this country than Ibrahim Halwa returning HOME. He’s Irish. There’s no doubting that. Get over underlying, misplaced and errant xenophobia.

      Reply
      1. Milo

        If you noticed, the Examiner have been doing plenty on the guards. Its obvious you don’t take it. As for the rest of your snivelly moans- there’s only one thing worse than xenophobia, thats hatred of the self.

        Reply
  8. Warden of the Snort

    New blood joins this earth
    And quickly he’s subdued
    Through constant pained disgrace
    The young boy learns their rules

    With time the child draws in
    This whipping boy done wrong
    Deprived of all his thoughts
    The young man struggles on and on he’s known
    A vow unto his own
    That never from this day
    His will they’ll take away-easy

    What I’ve felt
    What I’ve known
    Never shined through in what I’ve shown
    Never be
    Never see
    Won’t see what might have been
    What I’ve felt
    What I’ve known
    Never shined through in what I’ve shown
    Never free
    Never me
    So I dub thee Un-forgiven

    They dedicate their lives
    To running all of his
    He tries to please them all
    This bitter man he is
    Throughout his life the same
    He’s battled constantly
    This fight he cannot win
    A tired man they see no longer cares
    The old man then prepares
    To die regretfully
    That old man here is me

    What I’ve felt
    What I’ve known
    Never shined through in what I’ve shown
    Never be
    Never see
    Won’t see what might have been
    What I’ve felt
    What I’ve known
    Never shined through in what I’ve shown
    Never free
    Never me
    So I dub thee Un-forgiven

    What I’ve felt
    What I’ve known
    Never shined through in what I’ve shown
    Never be
    Never see
    Won’t see what might have been
    What I’ve felt
    What I’ve known
    Never shined through in what I’ve shown
    Never free
    Never me
    So I dub thee Un-forgiven
    Whoa, whoa

    Never Free
    Never Me
    So I dub thee Unforgiven
    You labeled me
    I’ll label you
    So I dub thee Unforgiven
    Never Free
    Never Me
    So I dub thee Unforgiven
    You labeled me
    I’ll label you
    So I dub thee Unforgiven
    Never Free
    Never Me
    So I dub thee Unforgiven

    Reply
  9. Sean

    The Irish Republican Brotherhood were the best thing that ever happened to this country. Sometimes you need a secret conspiratorial organisation to help lift the jackboot of colonial oppression off your neck and anyone who knows their Egyptian history knows that they’ve had it worse than most with both the French and the Brits screwing them for the past century and a half.
    Yes, despite their secular intentions, the IRB made way for a theocratic Catholic Irish Free State with eejits like Kevin O’Higgins and Eoin O’Duffy and the grand-Ayatollah McQuaid himself but in a hundred years time Ibraham Halawa’s great-grandson will probably be writing a letter to the Egyptian Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Arab-tacht from his 1.5m dinar pyrite ridden duplex in the leafy suburbs of Cairo asking for a ticket for him and his poodle to the centenary hooley for the liberation of Egypt from the military dictatorship of 2017 and all that will be in the past. I say let Ibraham believe anything he wants, change comes slowly and this lad sounds like he has beliefs, you don’t have to agree with him, just accept that he has a right to think differently.
    Welcome home Ibraham.

    Reply
    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      Born here, raised here, speaks the language, has a passport… why is Ireland not his home?

      Because he’s not white?

      Reply
      1. bisted

        …hah…up North there are a bunch of MPs who hold the balance of power in Westminster…they call themselves British but all the other MPs call them Irish – also, they all believe the earth is only 6000 years old…a muslim school boy is not the biggest problem on this island…

        Reply

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