‘This Is Not A Story Of Good And Bad People’

at

Catalan Independence demonstration in Barcelona, Spain last night

Further to the Catalonian referendum brouhaha.

Spain-born Broadsheet reader ‘Nando’ writes:

I don’t recognise my country in the posts (here, here and here) you’ve published recently. Here are some points you may need..

1. Franco passed away 42 years ago, so, anyone under 42 has been raised in a democracy. Spanish democracy is not perfect but there are freedom of speech and so on.

2. There are not far-right parties in the Spanish congress, no Golden Dawn, no AfD, no UkIP, no National Front. We don’t have characters suchs as Farange or Le Pen. Far-right support is verry little.

3. Party in power is center right. They have opened close to a hundred causes for corruption and illegal funding. This might say little about their honesty, but also that they are not in politics for the ideology, they are in it for de money.

4. Along this 42 years, catalan nacionalism has become an issue only in last few years.

5. Since catalans have voted 47 times in the last 42 years they can’t hardly argue they are vote deprived. So happens with freedom of speech. We all know about their claims by now, don’t we?

6. Pro independency parties have never achieved more than a half of the votes. In the last regional elections Junts pel Si (Together for the Yes, no headaches in the branding) went to 39.6% in 2015. Similar figures were achieved in the last illegal referendum, even considering that guarantees were low, people could vote several times and underages were allowed to vote too.

7. What nation proposes “Junts pel Si” is just unkown. Asked about a Catalan army, center right members said of course, far-left says of course not, Catalonia will be a pacifist paradise. Half of them see Catalonia in the future as the mediterranean Switzerland, the other half as a socialist society.

8. Violence displayed on October 1 is just wrong. Though I can only condemn it, is important to notice that a fair amount of the images posted actually didn’t belong to this day’s clashes. One woman that claimed she had her fingers broken one by one and sexually assaulted by police has admitted only suffers an inflamation in one of her fingers and was never harassed. Hospital  staff have revealed they were instructed to file all the cases as casualties of the clashes, even people with nervous breakdowns suffered at their homes.

9. Some teachers have confirmed that general strike on October 3 was planned beforehand, no matter what might happen on the 1st, they were instructed to send the alumns to the streets and claim for independency. Some of them opposed and say are being ignored by peers now. Some teenagers were bullied by their teachers on October 2, told they would be asahmed of what their fathers, policemen, did.  Educational competencies fall under the Catalonian authorities. History taught is only Catalan History. You won’t be surprised that children know nothing about Don Quixote, as he belongs to the Spanish culture.

10. Carme Forcadell, president of the Catalan parlament has said, those who don’t vote yes are not catalan. They are 60% of the Catalans though. On last sunday march a number close to 1 million people marched for unity in Barcelona. Catalan authorities have stated: there were no catalans marching. Once you don’t recognise as catalans those who oppose to your ideas is easy to get a majority.

11. This is not about innocent people claiming for their rights. Catalan people are above the average in wealth and rights. Claiming oppression would be an offense to all those who really suffer from it. This is not an story of good and bad people.

FIGHT!

Previously: I Am A Catalan

Mañana Belongs To me

85 thoughts on “‘This Is Not A Story Of Good And Bad People’

  1. ZeligIsJaded

    That’s all grand, but the balaclava clad thugs ripping ballot boxes away from middle aged women is really the only image that will stick with me.

    Centre right?

    Call it what you want!

    Most people have another name for it.

  2. snowey

    I’m glad to get another side of this , it seems one sided.

    but leave farage alone , he isn’t far right and is a good honest man who takes a lot of flak for no reason other than he opposes the status quo of EU largesse.

    anyway the violence was a bad step for the Spanish government , they should have let the people vote in a symbolic election that meant nothing.
    It would have gone nowhere with a low turn out.

    If the government wanted to really win, they should have an official ballot and take that result. if the parties of independence aren’t a majority the result will be clear.
    just like Scotland – however they shot themselves in the foot.

    1. MoyestWithExcitement

      “but leave farage alone , he isn’t far right”

      Here he is speaking at a rally for Germany’s far right party, the AfD.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwA7ytm9rhE

      Here’s what one of their leaders said recently;
      “If the French have the right to be proud of their emperor, and the British of Nelson and Churchill, then we have the right to be proud of the proud of the achievements of German soldiers in two world wars,”
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/co-founder-far-right-afd-says-germany-should-proud-second-world/
      (That’s the *Torygraphy* calling them far right)

      1. snowey

        everybody I don’t like is far right – yawn…
        next you’ll say he is literally hitler. – yawn again.

        EDL and other bands are far right – UKIP are not there is a huge gap .
        massive.
        the far right tag is just a lazy slur

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          “everybody I don’t like is far right”

          No, just the people who espouse far right ideas and speak at rallys for far right political parties. Your tactic of implying that the messenger (me, in this case) accuses everyone of being far right is as old as the hills and the only person you’re fooling is yourself. Congrats.

          1. Milo

            Left wing regimes are responsible for countless deaths and misery throughout history and across the world. Europe’s history is drowned in the blood of the left, Asia has China and North Korea- with their glorious legacies of happiness. Africa has experimented with communism with huge consequences and South America can attribute its historical failures to left wing ideology. So tell me, why are you so enamoured with parties of the left when all they have done is bring misery, death and fields of bones.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            “the only person you’re fooling is yourself.”

            And the guy above who named himself after a pederast who has people seig heil him at speeches.

          3. Milo

            Can you deal with why you support all those regimes who have only caused hurt and suffering. You put yourself around as caring type. And yet you support the cruellest form of society ever.

          4. Milo

            You pretend to care for the weak, but you support the tyrants. You call people pederasts, mongoloids, racists, paedopilhes, nazi’s- just wondering if its backed up by anything except youthful ignorance or are you one of those armchair republican socialist ties who doesn’t know anything beyond the cliches. L

          5. pedeyw

            Yes but there is also the 60 million deaths in ww2 which I think we can more or less blame on a far right regime.

          6. Milo

            Good. Glad you realise that its not as simple as right/left. Because the commentary on here often reflect the echo chamber thinking that right is bad and left good. Right use order and efficiency as reasons for their cruelty, the left are more insidious- they claim they are doing it in the name of caring and equality. Both are odious.

          7. Gimme Shelter

            Then why didn’t you include that balanced and moderate tone in your comment originally,which sounded suspiciously like a pernicious smear against those with whom you disagree?

          8. pedeyw

            “Right use order and efficiency as reasons for their cruelty, the left are more insidious- they claim they are doing it in the name of caring and equality”
            Large asterisk around all of that.
            Do you honestly think the left is more insidious than the right?
            I lean left because I think everyone deserves an equal start in life. Right wing politics at best ignores minority groups and at worst blames them for whatever societal problems they need a scapegoat for.

          9. MoyestWithExcitement

            Stop saying mean things about right wingers, lads. The guy who named himself after a pederast who speaks at neo nazi rallies is getting upset. Poor little victim.

          10. Milo

            I have yet to see a left wing regime that delivers on what it proclaims. If you can defend the left wing tyrannies that I pointed out above, let me know. My reference to them being more insidious is that they evoke moral righteousness in order to impose their society (often with force). They want as much power centralised in government which gives them overwhelming intrusion into peoples lives. And as we know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

            The right make no such claims of moral superiority. They proclaim meritocracy, they proclaim freedom, they want as little interference by government as possible. Yes, its cruel on the less well off, but the welfare state, charity and philanthropy is there to equalise matters.

            But the simple narrative here always backs the tyrants. Even though most of the advances have been made by right wing policies that evoke the entrepreneurial spirit. I think when people are young and uneducated they veer to the left, life teaches them that right is best.

          11. Milo

            The guy you’re referring to is just a horrible version of you. Funny how fixated you are on him. Must be all the talk in transition year.

          12. MoyestWithExcitement

            :D. Ok then, kid. Whatever you say. Continue with your hilarious temper tantrum. I need some lunchtime entertainment.

          13. Robert

            I have yet to see a left wing regime that delivers …

            Pretty much most of northern Europe? Germany, Scandinavia, The Netherlands. The UK’s NHS?

          14. MoyestWithExcitement

            “The right make no such claims of moral superiority.”

            All right wingers have inferiority complexes. They also think they’re the centre of the universe. When they see you expressing empathy, they think you’re saying you’re better than them because they don’t care about anyone mainly because they don’t like themselves very much. Pity right wingers. They really are severely emotionally damaged.

          15. pedeyw

            “The right make no such claims of moral superiority.”
            No. Sorry. You’re 100% wrong there, yu might not but right wing governments do all do all the time. In fact every political party or group will and generally do claim moral superiority.

            There would be no welfare state were it not for the left.

            It seems like you’re comparing Communist regimes to centre right political parties. There are plenty of examples of the right interfering with peoples lives see Pinochet, Hitler, Franco etc. All right wing Dictators, all of whom interfered with and controlled their populations, centralised control and greatly reduced equality.

            I would also argue strongly with the notion that “most of the advances have been made by right wing policies that evoke the entrepreneurial spirit”, what advances? Social? Scientific? Neither of which have really benefited from right wing polices.

          16. Milo

            Norther Europe is not left, its and example of compassionate capitalism. Jeez. Don’t they teach anything in school these days? Do you all get your news and views on twitter and blogs? They’re just like opinions man… they’re not fact.

            The right want equal opportunity. The left want to enforce equality. by what ever means necessary. Thats what Moyest and the other libtards push- something unnatural and cruel. And they claim to be doing it in the name of good. That is the modern illness in our society.

            And as for entrepreneurship and advancement- that is led by countries with Capitalist systems. Chine gets a look in due to its capitalist corners in Shanghai and Shenzhen, but the rest are western or hardcore capitalist like Korea. (South of course).

            Socialist societies stagnate by sucking the motivation from everyones life. No point in working cos A, they will take your money and B, sure they will feed you anyway.

            And dont mention Cuba as an example of anything. They mostly sell themselves for sex or medical experiments these days.

          17. MoyestWithExcitement

            5 paragraphs. I couldn’t decide if Milo was a wind up merchant or properly delusional. I have now decided.

          18. MoyestWithExcitement

            “The left want to enforce equality. by what ever means necessary. Thats what Moyest and the other libtards push- something unnatural and cruel”

            For the benefit of other readers (because Milo is obviously not bright enough/emotionally stable enough to take this in) empathy is natural. Anything that helps humanity, firstly, stay long enough to procreate and actually procreate is natural and good. On a fundamental level, empathy is needed for procreation, *generally* speaking. You strike me as the type who has read a LOT of “tips” on how to get on with women. I’ve seen lots and lots and lots of “how to’s” but they never mention the most important factor; trust. A woman needs to trust you before letting you in. We’re supposed to be nice to each other so we can all get it on. Also, empathy is what makes people try to stop other members of the species from dying. Left wing ideology is natural. Right wing ideology is an abomination. It is LITERALLY harmful to the continued existence of the species.

          19. MoyestWithExcitement

            I’m aware there are lunatics that are trying to justify not having empathy with all sorts of convoluted and incoherent nonsense. What a sad existence they must lead.

          20. Milo

            Sorry Moyest. The left is a modern construct aimed at control. Disguised in empathy, its a way for the weak to try and control the strong. usually needs a bloody revolution, a civil war, the mass oppression of people and general collapse, before right wing policies build societies again. just the nature of things. People like you want to change human nature through force so that you get something for nothing. Other people are happy to work for it and share their rewards with those who are less able. Thats me.

          21. MoyestWithExcitement

            Sorry, kid, the terms left and right literally come from opposition to or support for French Monarchy. The right is authoritarian by definition; a weak ideology spread by the talentless and emotionally fragile so they can force people into living how the right want them to live. The left is natural. The left is all about keeping the species going. Right wing ideology hurts mans chances for continued successful existence. It is unnatural, that is another reason why rightists like yourself seek to force your twisted and unnatural ideology through violence and initimidation.

          22. Milo

            Empathy in the left? Are you kidding? Thats just the mask they use to legitimise their theft, mass oppression and stealing. How could it be natural when its such a modern phenomenon. What is natural is the survival of the fittest which is what we see around us. Self awareness has deemed that looking after the weak can lead to heather societies so the right build that in through welfare, charities and philanthropy. But none of the wealth is generated without the right. Ask Kim Jong Un and the millions your selfish places have condemned to death in the name of equality.

  3. Formerly known as @ireland.com

    You don’t have to be oppressed to want to have your own identity. In Ireland’s case there was oppression.

  4. Jim

    Two points:
    Would Nando allow the Catalans to have a referendum?
    While Franco died 40 odd years ago, the Constitution of Spain was drawn up by politicians AND the army. To have the heavy input of the army in writing a Constitution is utterly undemocratic. The Constitution is not popular in either Catalunya or the Basque Country (ie, those regions that suffered most under the fascist dictatorship of Franco) and the vast majority of people now living in Spain did not have the chance to vote for it. Does Nando think the Constitution should be re-written?

    1. Dubhàin

      well the church had a heavy hand in our constitution, so should we get rid of it and let Fine Gael write a new one? But then they don’t have majority support either. So we’re depending on the people who approved our constitution to give it democratic power. In Spain’s case, Catalans approved of it. So its about as good as anyone is going to get.

      1. Helga

        The major difference is this – the Irish have had plebiscites to change the Constitution. That has never occurred in Spain. Also, just because Ireland wrongly allowed the Church to interfere doesn’t justify allowing the Spanish Army (then Francoist) to interfere.

    2. Iwerzon

      So Nando, you’re not Catalonian? You were there on your holidays then?
      The fact that Spain are so perplexed by the referendum makes it more legitimate.
      Catalunya should be given the choice of self determination.
      iNO PASSARAN!

  5. MoyestWithExcitement

    “This is not about innocent people claiming for their rights.”

    It is literally about their right to self determination which the Spanish government decided they shouldn’t have.

    “Catalan people are above the average in wealth and rights. Claiming oppression would be an offense to all those who really suffer from it.”

    Police bludgeoning the heads of pensions because they voted is pretty oppressive.

    1. b

      the Spanish government hasn’t decided they haven’t the right to self determination, the Constitution has determined that

      and using one day of oppression as means to pave the way secession creates a terrible precedent. The Spanish govt twinkle pants up with their response, but its not s substitute for actual democracy or a reason to skip that part of the process

        1. b

          catalan’s declaring independence on the basis of that referendum is also anti democratic

          but that’s ok right?

          i’m not excusing police brutality, you however are using police brutality as an excuse.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Voting is never anti democratic. If you are trying to stop people voting and claiming to do it in the name of democracy, you either don’t know what you’re talking about or you’re lying.

  6. William Campbell

    1. the notion that Spain became a democracy on the day that Franco died is laughable to anyone with a knowledge of history.

    2. You might perhaps explain this to the crowds giving the fascist salute and singing pro-Franco songs in Madrid.

    3. If this is an advertisement for Catalonia remaining united with Spain, it is a poor one.

    4. under Franco, many Catalans were imprisoned, tortured and murdered for nationalist ‘crimes’ such as speaking their own language. This does not indicate that Catalan nationalism only emerged in the past five years

    5. this does not speak to the rights of the Catalan people to nationhood

    6. a general election is not a referendum, and many people vote based on a variety of policies. That’s why the way to decide this issue is on a single-issue referendum.

    7. All democratic countries have internal disagreements. They are settled by democratic means; they do not speak to the right to nationhood of those countries.

    8. What level of violent oppression would you think is acceptable?

    9. this does not speak to the rights of the Catalan people to nationhood

    10. this does not speak to the rights of the Catalan people to nationhood

    11. the wealth or otherwise of Catalan people does not speak to their rights of to nationhood

    Finally, the idea that people who did not vote Yes want Catalonia to be part of Spain is nonsense. Only a couple of years before Irish independence, the overwhelming majority of Irish people voted for parties supporting continued membership of the United Kingdom. They, like Catalans, faced threats, bullying, oppression and a lack of faith in their ability to overcome the obstacles to independence.

    There is no evidence that 100 per cent of people who don’t believe that the effort required is worthwhile are people who actually do not want independence.

    1. Gorev Mahagut

      “There is no evidence that 100 per cent of people who don’t believe that the effort required is worthwhile are people who actually do not want independence.”
      So “No” really means “Yes”? Are we applying the Harvey Weinstein defence to elections now?

  7. RuilleBuille

    Most of what the author writes is incorrect. The current ruling party, Partido Popular, has its antecedents in the Franco regime. It is directly descended from the Franco government.

    And as to the lack of fascists there are numerous photographs of Spanish unionists giving Nazi salutes.

    Our own Troubles started with a government refusing to listen to a One Man One Vote demand. A compliant Nationalist population were so provoked that they destroyed the B Specials, RUC, UDR and Unionist party hegemony and fought the British army to a standstill.

  8. Amorphous Kerry Blob

    Point 1 and 2 reminded me of this question (from 2012.)
    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/far-right-ireland-golden-dawn-673169-Nov2012/

    An article which in essence asks: What satiates the fascistic impulses in the Irish electorate, to the extent that there are (or at least were) no openly far-right parties?

    I wonder if there is a worthy comparison between the Rep. of Ireland and Spain in this regard.

    In relation to this, I have a question for any Spain/Irish experts:

    Lets argue that Ireland’s democratic set up consists of an Irish Parliament dominated by two interchangeable parties, both of whom more than willing to prop up a dysfunctional economic set up for the financial benefit of themselves and a certain few in banking/building etc. (though they would strenuously deny this and throw all kinds of shapes/throw in superficial budgetary appeasements to convince you otherwise.) Let’s also argue that Ireland’s democracy is dominated by two interchangeable parties, who happen to have a historical reputation with regard corruption.

    Is there any notable similarities between this and Spain’s democratic setup?

    Also, would it be ‘a bit much’ to suggest some kind of similarity in the democratic deficiencies of both societies, in terms of their historical origins; one culture recently growing out of fascistic Franco rule (and perhaps still ideologically burdened with the residue of same,) the other still thawing out of a social hierarchy dominated by theocratic impulses (and the fascistic undertones that come with same) ?

    wordy word word

  9. Joe Small

    I’ve always found the Catalans to be whingey and addicted to victimhood. We could have a thousand new countries in Europe if every region went this way but they don’t have a majority in their own region – a basic prerequisite of any claim. Their nationalism is surprisingly narrow-minded – I remember reading how disgusted they were when people in Barcelona celebrated Spain’s World Cup win – as if these people were the enemy within.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      Comment about not celebrating Spain’s World Cup win is untrue. I was there when Spain won it.

      For one, most of the team (Piqué, Puyol, Capdevilla, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas) were Catalans. Of the other 5 who featured, one (Alonso) was Basque, another was half Basque (Casillas) and two were adopted Catalans (Pedro and Villa, both playing for Barca).

      Spain won the World Cup with one Spanish player (Ramos).

      And that points to a big part of Catalunya’s desire for independence. There’s a sense – and it’s not without grounds – that Spain appropriates Catalan wealth, achievements, prestige… and gives disrespect in return. Catalans resent that, and generally regard the Spanish as being uncultured, unsophisticated paletos.

      1. ahjayzis

        “There’s a sense – and it’s not without grounds – that Provincial Ireland appropriates Dublin wealth, achievements, prestige… and gives disrespect in return. Dubs resent that, and generally regard the Provincials as being uncultured, unsophisticated culchies.”

        And that’s why Dublin needs to declare independence. ^_^

      2. :-Joe

        Go to Barcelona, get in a taxi and if you can’t speak spanish or catalan any driver who speks basic english will tell you….

        “The catalans are fed up of propping up the spanish economy and not getting enough say in how things are done and still having to fight tooth and nail for everything while also being mostly just dismissed or ignored by the political class in Madrid.”

        If they gain independance, the spanish government will have to take it’s head out of it’s backside and deal with a very angry and neglected electorate, most of which will seek to gain citizenship in catalunia.

        Clearly, to me anyway, this article has a pro nationalistic bias.

        The system of demacracy in Switzerland is possibly the best on the planet. I hope they enact something similar there and here in Ireland eventually.

        It would be great to remove the cult of personality and dear Leodar type rule from every political system.

        :-J

  10. Clampers Outside!

    What does the left think of a rich region breaking off from the burden of providing subsidies to poorer regions.

    Didn’t see Ming condemn it…

    Re Point 9… I’d read a number of others talking about the universities threatening expulsion of students who didn’t march, and threats of violence by students to students….

    that ain’t good

    1. MoyestWithExcitement

      “What does the left think of a rich region breaking off from the burden of providing subsidies to poorer regions”

      Let’s ring The President of The Left and ask him.

        1. Formerly Known As @ireland.com

          Not everything is about economics. Identity and culture are valuable. Brexit is a mishmash of both. I disagree with Brexit but enough Brits fell for it.

          The Scottish decided they couldn’t afford or risk independence.

          It looks like Catalonia can afford it.

  11. nellyb

    From the outside, Catalan referendum looks more and more like economic bargaining move against Spain, rather than genuine desire for independence. At least on the part of official leaders. They might have duped catalan masses to rally behind them.
    “In a much-anticipated speech to the Catalan parliament, ringed by thousands of protesters and hundreds of armed police, Carles Puigdemont made only a symbolic declaration, claiming a mandate to launch secession but suspending any formal steps to that end.
    His remarks disappointed many of his supporters who had gathered outside, waving Catalan flags in the expectation that he would move a formal independence motion to the assembly.”

    1. nellyb

      and “Some Catalan residents were shifting their bank accounts to lenders and branches in other regions of Spain on Monday with the aim of safeguarding their savings should Catalonia declare independence and tumble out of the European Union.”

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      In fairness, when they tried to hold a vote, the Spanish police moved their armed thugs in to beat up pensioners and the EU commission said that was a “proportionate” response. You can understand how the threat of more EU endorsed violence from the Spanish government might have scared the Catalan government into ceding to the demand for “dialogue”.

      1. nellyb

        i am against violence and fully support the right to protest, no ambiguity there. what I’ve said (and sorry if i was vague) it looks like supporters were rallied with message of real independence, whereas the leaders didn’t really want to breakaway, just push Spanish buttons to get better economic deal.
        Would the catalan leaders have gotten enough people on the streets and ballot papers in the boxes if they said ‘lads, it’s just pretense for a bit of leverage, like’ ? But we’ll never know that.

        1. nellyb

          Catalan leaders aren’t morons, they understand the consequences of fleeing capital and fleeing banks. Hungry independence doesn’t last and violent.

        2. MoyestWithExcitement

          Fair enough, the honesty of the individual people in the Catalan government is a different conversation but a legitimate one. If we’re discussing whether the people of Catalonia have a right to determine who they are though, then the honesty of their current government doesn’t *really* come in to it.

  12. Nando

    It’s always been about the money. Party in power discovered the nation concept when started to lose elections. No sooner, no later.

    Constitution can be ammended? Yes, was not God written. There are rules for that.
    A (legal) referendum should be called?. Sure, follow the rules.

    There is not democracy if you make up your own rules. There is not if you lie to your people. They should know what kind of nation you have in mind. They might be interested in becoming a tax haven, but not the mediterranean North Korea. If you deliberately hide this information you’re not being honest to say the least.

    A region with an own language and culture has the self determination right?, Says who?, How many languages are spoken in Europe?, How many in the world?, All deserve to be a nation?, Sure would be a funnier place.

    Sorry, there are two arguments you have, the romantic notion of a nation which I doubt has any sense nowadays and policemen beating grannies following a court order. Too feeble to justify a nation.

  13. MoyestWithExcitement

    “A region with an own language and culture has the self determination right?, Says who?”

    Who says they don’t have a right? You? Why?

    “How many languages are spoken in Europe?, How many in the world?, All deserve to be a nation?, Sure would be a funnier place”

    Probably a fairer one.

    1. nando

      No international organization says so. Self determination rights were introduced to give legal frame to colonies and invaded or opressed countries to achieved independency. Neither of them can be applied to Catalonia. Self determination based in feelings or beliefs is difficult to defend. Nobody will give a shit about your rights if they are based in your disagreement with the regional redistribution of wealth.

      UE was created originally to prevent european countries to kill each other from time to time, as has happened since centuries. Sure making hundreds of countries will work fine for fairness. What would you do with the french area were catalan is spoken? They are not interested in independency, but they share culture, history and language with the Spanish Catalonia…. should them be forced to join the rest of Catalonia?. Sorry, is a door you dont want to open.

  14. Lasrian Cronin O'Hannigan

    Though I value hearing a different take on this whole situation, I have to disagree with one point in particular. I completed my education in a public schools in Barcelona (age 9-18) and we thoroughly studied the history of the entire nation, particularly the Spanish Civil War and Franco Era as we got older. We also read a significant portion of Don Quijote in our Spanish literature class, with a balance in reading both Spanish and Catalan literature throughout all years of Secondary education. I won’t argue with any other points because I don’t know enough myself/don’t have reason for disbelief, but on point 9 I have to assure you you are incorrect.

  15. :-Joe

    Go to Barcelona, get in a taxi and if you can’t speak spanish or catalan any driver who speks basic english will tell you….

    “The catalans are fed up of propping up the spanish economy and not getting enough say in how things are done and still having to fight tooth and nail for everything while also being mostly just dismissed or ignored by the political class in Madrid.”

    If they gain independance, the spanish government will have to take it’s head out of it’s backside and deal with a very angry and neglected electorate, most of which will seek to gain citizenship in catalunia.

    Clearly, to me anyway, this article has a pro nationalistic bias.

    The system of demacracy in Switzerland is possibly the best on the planet. I hope they enact something similar there and here in Ireland eventually.

    It would be great to remove the cult of personality and dear Leodar type rule from every political system.

    :-J

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