Just Sign The Papers

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An unemployed man explains to a Department of Social Protection deciding officer why he won’t sign up to privately-owned job schemes.

A surreptitiously-taped encounter apparently recorded at an Intreo job centre.

‘Snugnodge’ writes:

Final meeting with Intreo in job center with department of social protection and their deciding officer who are forcing citizens under duress or threat of zero income to sign contracts with private companies against their will..Make of it what you wish. Got cut off completely for nine weeks after meeting…

There you go now.

Previously: Jobpath Or Else

55 thoughts on “Just Sign The Papers

  1. Kolmo

    Who benefits (…) from the commodification of the Social Welfare system? How is profit generated? Who voted to hand-over the national social safety net to private enterprise?

    1. UnitedPeople

      Seetec and Turas Nua immediately profit upon signatures are gained. They have agreed a total cost which the public purse pays), which they gain after a year of a person gained work while with them. HOWEVER, as they have your signature AT THE START, they can then right away claim 15% of that total price (as instant profit)

      Signatures = private company profit..

  2. JIMMYJAMES

    THURSDAY 12TH OCTOBER 2017
    2017 332 JR FAGAN -V- SEETEC EMPLOYMENT & SKILLS IRELAND & ORS
    .
    In the photo you will see with this post, is man holding a 380+ page book of evidence. This man’s name is Damien Fagan – and he has quite a remarkable story to tell.
    .
    I cannot do it full justice in summary but without a long-winded version boring you or leaving you turning away, I will do my best to describe what this man (with material assistance, advice and support of myself on behalf of UnitedPeople) has done today, for the people of Ireland, in Dublin Highcourt .

    (…and believe me – this is a summary version)
    .
    Credit goes to Damien first of all, as he was willing to stand up for not just his constitutional rights – but willing to stand up (a) and uphold them under the Irish constitution, (b) he was as a lay-litigant up against the best legal representatives that the Minister over the Department of Social Protection, Seetec and more could down face him with. In total today, he an ordinary citizen, was facing in court 5 people in total in front of a judge. The weight of the state and private company against one man – and he took their case apart bit by bit…
    .
    Damien’s story is now a familiar one – but there also something else special about Damien which I shall reveal at the end of this post, that makes his battle even far more remarkable.
    .
    Damien was like many before him, today and tomorrow, ‘invited’ to participate in the JobPath process. When he expressed concerns over their PPP (Personal Progress Plan) and declined to sign it, he was told to do so or his money would be shut off. In time they (Seetec – a private company) would see that he was cut him off. He lost in total €1,800+ in benefits he was fully legal entitled to and to which THEY NOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL PROTECTION had NO LEGAL right to take off him. It was illegally stolen from him – AND THIS WAS PROVEN IN COURT AND THEY ADMITTED IT.
    …That’s a short version.
    .
    What happened next over a series of meetings with Seetec, was outright assault upon his fundamental rights as a citizen of Ireland and even worse… In one meeting he was called to, he was physical assaulted by a member of Seetec staff when they became aware he was making sure all that happened at that meeting was accurately recorded. The judge today has been given a recording of that assault – and I have a copy of it also.
    .
    Damien Fagan was thrown up against a wall, by his attacker jumping from his desk who then held him up there forcefully and further threatened him.
    (The government and Seetec are trying hard to media bury this shocking incident and more).
    .
    They, at many stages, insisted that they were able to take notes etc – but that he was not allowed to, of meetings they demanded he turn up at.
    .
    At ALL these called to meetings, they demanded that he sign on the private contract dotted line, the PPP (Personal Progression Plan). He politely declined under common rights under the constitution. He repeatedly asked for “Fair Process” to take place” – in other words that under standard legal procedure, he had a right to all evidence they wish to lay against him for his refusal to sign a private contract, that he faces his accuser and that an independent mediator be present.
    .
    At every stage, he was denied these rights. “Fair Process” was not allowed to take place. This is his and YOUR legal right. Seetec and the government would not give it to him.
    .
    From one meeting Seetec said that they held with Damien, they told the court today that one of their side was present and further more was able to submit what happened at that meeting. HOWEVER – that person was NEVER there.

    In other words, today Seetec submitted to the Irish highcourt a statement from an individual saying he was at a meeting, was able to describe what happened, what was said and what was the outcome – BUT IN TRUTH HE WAS NEVER THERE AT ANY STAGE.
    .
    Damien was able to prove to the court that not only had the man lied in his attendance – but that by Seetec and the state presenting his statement as evidence today, they too was supplying false evidence to the highcourt today.
    .
    It gets better. Damien was able to prove but gain a statement from Seetec in highcourt, that SIGNING A PPP IS INDEED A FORM OF CONTRACT.
    .
    Haver you got that?
    .
    If ANY Seetec employee tell you that signing a PPP is NOT a contract they are either (a) very stupid or (b) blatantly lying through their teeth to you.
    .
    IMPORTANT: THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT – OR LEGISLATION – TO TAKE AWAY YOUR MONEY IF YOU DON’T WISH TO SIGN THE PERSONAL PROGRESS PLAN OR ANY FORM THEY SHOVE IN FRONT OF YOU.

    AS LONG AS YOU ARE STILL WILLING TO OTHERWISE ENGAGE WITH JOBPATH, YOU ARE WITHIN YOUR LEGAL RIGHT TO KEEP YOUR PAYMENTS. THEY HAVE (RELUCTANTLY) COURT STATED THIS THEMSELVES.
    .
    Damien was able to give material evidence today that free choice in how to go about seeking employment, was being impinged by the state and Seetec/Turas Nua, by they demanding that a private contract be signed “…or else!”

    = RE: Irish Constitution – Article 45.2.3.
    That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of
    the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
    .
    (in other words, the state CANNOT create a situation where a private company can profit where “common detriment” (the rights of the people) are attacked, undermined or destroyed.)
    .
    = RE: Irish Constitution – Article 45.2.1.
    That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs.
    .
    (In other words, by the state and Seetec/Turas Nua openly threatening and bullying – not only are they breaking the laws under “The non-fatal offences against the person act 1997” regarding harassment etc, – not only are they are also breaking the law under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994. regarding Blackmail and coercion tactics being used – but that they are ALSO undermining the people of Ireland’s right to self determination as to how they go about choosing a job.
    As long as you are actively seeking work, able to do so etc, you are NOT breaking terms and conditions of the Dept’ of S.P.)
    .
    He showed that under not only Irish law but European contract law, the state and the two hired private companies were breaking standard contract law.
    .
    * He was able to present evidence to a judge that that state was in the past and still is, breaking data protection law.
    * He was able to present evidence to a judge that that the two private companies was in the past and still is, breaking data protection law.
    .
    Seetec and the state tried to claim that he didn’t engage with them. They lied in court and he proved it – and even then went further! He knocked that ‘ball out of the park. He provided a serious load of evidence to show that he engaged with the Dept of S.P. and Seetec at all times and tried to engage even more – that he also followed ALL their demands to attend meetings. The submitted 380+ book of evidence material, including of his attending meetings, proved that to the judge.
    .
    Seetec and the state tried to say he didn’t follow all the standard procedures to put forward his case. Damien proved them wrong too in that. They were LYING AGAIN. He provided to the judge all the evidence needed to refute their lies. BUT NOT JUST THAT – he was further able to show that he had gone to the National Ombudsman and the Gardi in order to seek justice. He provided evidence of that too!
    .
    In order to try and make the case go away, Seetec and the state tried to claim that Damien Fagan was outside this three month period of appeal process time. Damien was able to PROVE that in fact THEY were responsible for the long delays. In one evidence example given into the court, they refused to reply to an appeal letter submitted FOR OVER A MONTH. the state and Seetec deliberate tried to run his time out. Damien was able to prove that also.
    .
    They tried to end his whole case at one stage by – 15 minutes before it was due to start in court – by just giving him back the €1,800 money that they had illegal taken from him. Damien then presented that money as additional evidence (along with more) to the court, as part of his submission that the other side was trying a number of tactics to suppress what they were doing. THEY DON’T WANT THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON – AND THAT INCLUDES LEO VARADKAR AND REGINA DOHERTY.
    .
    They tried to say that at one meeting he brought a serious about of electronic equipment including “visual” recording items (their words). Damien turned around in rebuttal and with one single photograph (taken on the day in question) was able to prove exactly what he had brought in with him to a meeting – i.e. a laptop with notes on it. HERE TOO they had not only lied in sworn testimony but to the court and judge today.
    .
    Damien was able to prove that audio submission was being used by the irish justice system – and he cited two cases including that of Maurice McCabe. Audio recording are being used as evidence and accept by state court commissions.
    .
    Damien was able to show today that in fact the state and company Seetec was DENYING people training abilities. Yes, he provided clear evidence of this too.
    .
    Damien was able to prove that in fact, in order to try stop anyone from successful appealing any decision Seetec and the state wanted to ram down people’s throats – remember, without “fair process” – that in order to do so they used THREE different Seetec office addresses so that they could claim they never got material or a letter.
    .
    There is MUCH more to this case today that Damien Fagan was able to prove with absolute irrefutable supplied evidence to the court judge – and I could/will write a book on it some day – but in short, he was able with assistance, to show the state is bullying, denying thousands their legal rights, undermining their rights, stealing money that they have NO LEGAL authority to so so, that they are using people for private company profit, that they are not operating under “fair procedure” standards, that they are lying, misrepresenting themselves and facts – and a hell of a lot more.
    .
    ===========================================================
    .
    This case is about Damien Fagan and UnitedPeople standing up for the protection of fundamental rights of every citizen. We are trying to protect the basic rights of all Irish citizens – not just ourselves – but of our children also.
    .
    * No one should be lied to by the state or their illegal hired agents.

    * No one should be forced into a private contract.

    * No one should have their right, to how they actively find work, taken away from them.

    * No one should have their money stolen by a private company or denied via the state and its underhand methods.

    * No one should be physical attacked on behalf of the state, because they declined to sign a private contract.

    * No one hired by the state or acting for the state, should misrepresent themselves in order to try create higher private profits for an Irish or foreign company.

    * A persons freedom of choice about how they do actively go about seeking work, should not be denied to them.

    * A persons right to seek training and then having gained said place on a training course, should not be denied to them.

    * State bullying by blackmail and coercion should end immediately.

    * NO ONE should be treated in the way unemployed people are being currently treated, their rights denied and squashed. Those that are already vulnerable for their status, should not be further kicked by the state while they are unfortunately already down. One case of this is bad enough – but now there are hundreds of cases that have happened.
    .
    ===========================================================
    .
    IMPORTANT:
    I stated at the start about Damien Fagan that “there also something else special about Damien”…
    .
    You see Damien has clear cut diagnosed dyslexia. Despite this, he has managed to do what he has done – brought a ton of evidence to the national highcourts, took on multiple state, top legal heads lined up against him – and PROVED them as liars, submitting false evidence and much more. He has detailed EXACTLY what is being done wrong, by whom, when and where.
    .
    Over €500,000+ Euro now has been possibly stolen from unemployed – and thats only in the first year of Seetec operating illegally.
    * Did we mention that they even broke the tender agreement by not prior fulfilling the required requisites?
    * Did we mention that they were given the JobPath tender contract BEFORE even Seetec Ireland company was even legally established?
    .
    …It’s all on record now.
    .
    ==========================================================
    .
    UnitedPeople and Damien Fagan has been fighting (peacefully) a long battle against those clearly doing wrong. We are NOT giving up or backing down. The law is on our side and the other side is breaking it and will continue to do so till we expose them more. UnitedPeople has supplied an additional 108 page (year and a half long in time of research digging) UnitedPeople investigation report to Damien for use in court. THAT REPORT CAN BE FOUND ON THE UNITEDPEOPLE(.ie) WEBSITE TO DOWNLOAD FOR FREE.
    .
    Just like last week when situations including Damien’s, was managed to be raised in the Dail and the next day, in the PAC (Public Accounts Committee), our struggle goes on. Lies, assaults, attempted cover-ups and more, must be brought to light if true justice is to happen in Ireland.
    .
    With all they are doing wrong and more – It’s no wonder the Department of Social Protection, Seetec and Turas Nua – along with Leo Varadkar directly – want this case to go away quietly, unnoticed and go unreported.
    .
    The judge now is reviewing everything and a national Judicial Review of the whole JobPath mess is on the cards!
    .
    What has happened, is currently STILL happening – is the material, the basis for a future new state inquiry to take place. 120,000+ people so far have been ran through JobPath.
    .
    As UnitedPeople continues to collect victim statements, the already shocking consequences of JobPath and those ramming it down the throat of a nation, has become all to obvious.
    .
    People have lost jobs because of it, lost training, lost money and even in some cases, lost the roof over their head because of JobPath, Seetec, Turas Nua and the government acting as suited thugs thinking they can just do what they like with little or no accountability.
    .
    Today we all attended court not only representing a single individual but on court record and evidence submitted, 47 other victims also. We have statements from a lot MORE VICTIMS about their shocking experiences.
    .
    The abomination that is JobPath – but more fundamentally at system level, the underlying state bullying, lying, robbing state process must end.
    .
    It’s now over to you to help us get the word out… Don’t let ‘them’ bury this.

    1. farrelleye

      O M G,we need to keep on RT this as much as possible + not let them away with this preposterous Scam! Fair play to you for posting+ I’m in absaloute awe of Damien Fagan. Is this another part of the Labour JB Toxic Legacy,remember this+ much more at the next #GE. Thank you for this post United People

  3. Joe Small

    I don’t believe he was intentionally cut off from all income for nine weeks for refusing to sign. That’s not the policy.

    1. WorkerPleb

      That’s literally the policy Seetec/Turas Nua/Isle of Mann Subsidiary Inc. threaten people with to get them to sign.

      What a fupping waste of money. Make people sign up to adult education courses if you want them to learn something. These fly-by-night JobPath jokers are doing twinkle all for anyone except siphoning off money for themselves. More bureaucracy, more bullpoopy, more backhanders and back-scratching., nothing accomplished but money wasted and longer dole queues. At least FAS courses trained people, Christ.

      I’m sick of hearing bitter fupping moaners going on about the dole. If you’re not advocating training or education then you’re wasting everyone’s time. If we’d trained unemployed people to drive Luas trams, we’d never have had that strike, now would we?

    1. WorkerPleb

      If you knew anything about the world, you’d probably have copped that he likely has a stammer, isn’t a looker, has a thick Dublin accent, etc, etc. You’d know talent isn’t everything when it comes to getting a job.

      1. Warden of the Snort

        I do accept those factors are relevant, but this man is clearly highly accomplished, professional, meticulous and can follow a legal or quasi-legal procedure. The contrast presented between his professionalism, apparent demeanour and attention to detail with his interlocutors here is quite stark.

        As an aside while tapes indeed may be admissible I don’t believe taping someone without their permission in a private place is lawful, I suppose the question is whether someone can have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that sort of public-facing role.

      2. Pat Kenny's wife

        Why would I prejudge someone like that? He seems a bright guy and could turn his hand to something else

  4. Rob

    Not sure what he’s goin on about, he’s jumpin from point to non connected point…data protection laws apply to all bodies even third party “private companies”…the company are contracted to provide a service just like other services contracted out by the government so you don’t have necessarily a contract directly with them..i wonder did he take up the same stance with Irish water, no contract no consent kinda thing…also the recording was done in sly so can’t really be taken as verbatim..from, A new user/client/customer/pawn of Seetec!

  5. Eamonn Moran

    That woman was an absolute saint in fairness. His initial complaint was that they wouldn’t give him a copy of the document they wanted him to sign in order to examine it. She gave him one.

    1. Otis Blue

      I imagine that she willingly gave him a blank form to take away. I’d imagine the Personal Progression Plan (PPP) he was asked to sign by Turas Nua was a questionnaire with his responses to specific questions put to him.

      Two very different things.

      What I don’t get though was why this became an issue as he was exiting Jobpath. I thought it was a requirement at the outset of the engagement between Jobpath and the client.

  6. Zaccone

    The gist of that long post being if you engage with Seetac, but refuse to sign, they can’t do anything so? Seems an easy escape.

  7. Eoin

    Thanks for the post BS and thanks for the info on Damien Fagan there Jim. I know several people going through this process currently. I shall be forwarding this info to them. As far as I know Seetec employees get a commission for shoe-horning people into any old slave labour position they can. I know two highly skilled individuals working in emerging techs, schooled here and trained abroad who are preparing to leave for Europe where their skills are appreciated. They would like to live and work here, but, Ireland, as per usual, is behind the curve when it comes to companies working with these emerging ‘disruptive’ technologies. And we will continue to be behind the curve as long as we keep forcing our skilled people to leave (rather than submit to Intreo/Seetec bullying/policy).

  8. Eamonn Moran

    On the other hand I am totally against privatizing of Job seeking services for people who are unemployed.

  9. Justme

    Did she consent to being recorded? If not (and I didn’t hear her consent), that’s unfair on her, trying to do her job.

  10. Panty Christ

    No official is identified in the clip. Furthermore.. when Primetime or Times Ireland did secret recordings to prove a point nobody was up in arms. This is to me legitimate and in the public interest.

  11. Weldoninhio

    Pity he won’t put as much effort into getting a job. Seems an awful lot of work for someone who seems as workshy as Damien

  12. Pat Kenny's wife

    You’ll get no sympathy here lads
    We all have problems too
    These folks are trying to help you get money and some decent standard of living, why look a gift horse in then mouth?

    1. Kolmo

      We’ll all have a whole load more problems when the the rest of the state apparatus is ideologically handed over to the fortunately-placed privateers whose only concern is it’s shareholders and who’s interests are wholly contradictory to the common good and dangerous for a stable society, fair play to anyone who stands up to these gangsters.

  13. Truth in the News

    There should be a Public Accounts inquiry and a session to deal with this kind of racket
    it will expose the subversion of the Social Protection system to massage
    unemployment figures, and to persecute those those that there is no suitable employment
    for…..these useless schemes and courses should be abolished at once.

  14. Panty Christ

    Schemes like Jobpath obscure and distract from a true unemployment figure. Moreover add into the mix, a person in further education no matter what level further muddies the numbers.

  15. The Green Grace

    I had to attend Seetec. I felt very uncomfortable about the implied threat of the letters you receive. There is a bullying and threatening tone to the letters dressed up in double speak which is not a pleasant experience. I feel most people, when they suspect they’re being strong-armed into something, want to kick back instead of being meek and humiliated.

    The first person/advisor I was working with in Seetec was of the opinion more that I was working for him, the type of person who clicks their fingers at you or bangs your desk. However, when the situation was coming to a head I spoke to another person working there about how uncomfortable it was making me feel and they paired me up with someone else.

    They destroyed my CV, it was fupping woeful and all over the place. It was explained to me the reasons for each section and pinpointed what information needed to be conveyed and what waffle to bin. They didn’t write the CV for me but showed me how to write one.

    I hated job interviews, absolutely dreaded them and have fallen apart at a fair few. Again, the interview process was deconstructed for me. The reasons for the questions asked and not what to say but how to discuss your career path up until now, without the usual bullshit you read when looking up advice.

    Then they left me to it. I worked on my CV and cover letter, my interview technique, and discussed job opportunities. The staff , bar the first person I experienced, were genuinely enthusiastic to help out and themselves were trying to develop their own careers. So, the place had a friendly collegiate atmosphere.

    I don’t doubt that not everyone has this experience, but in fairness to them and just my own experience, I left Seetec with a great CV I can stand over, and a self confidence in interviews that has helped me out a lot since.

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