Getting Schooled

at

This morning

Unspecified location, Dublin.

Erica Fleming writes:

I’m really irritated this morning over this poster – it says “if killing an unborn baby at six months bothers you then VOTE NO” – it has a picture of a fully formed baby on it! This is directly outside my child’s school! It’s inappropriate.

Update:

90 thoughts on “Getting Schooled

  1. james

    Wait, Are we voting to bring in constitution which would allow abortion to 6 months? I thought it was 12 weeks? Why are irrelevant arguments allowed be made in respect of this referendum? Can someone not be held accountable?

    1. John

      The proposed law would allow abortion at that stage of gestation for physical or mental “health” reasons, the ground applied in the vast majority of abortions in the UK, so it’s not irrelevant.

    2. The Ghost of Starina

      No, we are not. Not in the scare-mongering sense that this poster means it. It’s hyperbole. There would only be “abortion” at six months if the mother was going to die if it didn’t happen. It’s very rare. There would not be abortion at six months on demand.

      1. newsjustin

        “No, we are not. Not in the scare-mongering sense that this poster means it. ”

        So yes.

        Abortion up till “viability” on physical and mental health grounds. Not just threat to the life of the mother.

        This is another poster/message that some pro-choice people disagree with because they can’t or won’t understand the legislation the Govt are proposing.

        1. Cian

          I thought that today, in Ireland, if a (6 month) pregnant woman were suicidal – this was grounds for abortion. Am I wrong?

          Oh look: The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013; section 9
          …when there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the woman arising from suicide intent

          So the poster is scare-mongering.

          1. newsjustin

            “I thought that today, in Ireland, if a (6 month) pregnant woman were suicidal – this was grounds for abortion. Am I wrong?”

            No. You’re correct. If there is a real and substantial risk to the mother’s life than an abortion is legal.

            The new proposed legislation will allow for abortion if there is a risk to the health (not just life) of the mother. In reality – as in the UK – this can mean anything. It is the basis for most abortions in the UK ie those on healthy babies and healthy mothers.

          2. Cian

            um, kinda. except the proposed legislation says “serious harm to the health “:

            Head 4: Risk to life or health
            (1) It shall be lawful to carry out a termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head where 2 medical practitioners certify that, in their reasonable opinion formed in good faith
            (a) there is a risk to the life of, or of serious harm to the health of, the pregnant
            woman,
            (b) the foetus has not reached viability, and
            (c) it is appropriate to carry out the termination of pregnancy in order to avert that
            risk

        2. Nigel

          If the conditions arose today, before repeal, which would require the termination of a pregnancy in order to save the woman’s life, then according to the no-side doctors, the woman would not be denied the medical treatment she requires. So voting yes or no will make no difference whatsoever.

          You were one of the better angels of the No side, justin, don’t defend their lies, particularly by chopping logic and twisting for technicalities. Less dishonesty is always better.

          1. newsjustin

            “So voting yes or no will make no difference whatsoever.”

            Not true.
            The new proposed legislation will allow for abortion if there is a risk to the health (not just life) of the mother. In reality – as in the UK – this can mean anything. It is the basis for most abortions in the UK ie those on healthy babies and healthy mothers

        3. realPolithicks

          “This is another poster/message that some pro-choice people disagree with because they can’t or won’t understand the legislation the Govt are proposing.”

          The people “don’t understand” trope is always dragged out when the argument is being lost. People understand perfectly well and that is why they are voting yes.

          1. newsjustin

            Some people plainly do not understand.

            They fail to see the difference between abortion being allowed where there is a real and substantial risk to the mother’s life (the current situation) and abortion being allowed where there is a risk to the health of the mother (the proposed legislation).

            Or they see the difference but want to ignore it.

      2. david

        Then we now have another legal quandary in another hospital like savita
        As they argue the legal definition of the 12 weeks
        It was such an argument that led to the doctors with pro life views hiding behind the law because they thought their moral beliefs came before saving a life and refused to save that woman life

    3. kellma

      The removal of the 8th would allow abortions up to 12 weeks. Thereafter it is more or less the same as it currently is i.e. the doctors reach a conclusion with their patient if it is required for medical reasons e.g. FFA, risk to the mother’s health physical or mental. The no side is at pains to point out that they support abortions for justifiable medical reasons and that the 8th doesn’t impact this as it is. The fact of the matter is though, that many medics (Dr. Rhona Mahony et al) will say that the 8th is actually preventing this. So this poster is a complete red herring and also a contradiction of some of their own arguments. Eyes to heaven…

      1. david

        Not at all the removal of the eight is just that
        Removal of constitutional protection of any unborn
        Hoping a government will pass a law that has not been made yet?
        That is the truth so its up to you?
        Vote for killing all unborn that do not suit the life style of people
        And knives guns photos of foetuses so be it
        This is exactly what is being proposed, killing the unborn.
        I honestly think a photo should be on the ballot paper to ensure people really know what the re suit of this is going to be just like the photos on cigarette packets.

        1. realPolithicks

          The 8th doesn’t do anything to protect “the unborn” from abortion. Thousands of Irish women have abortions every year but they have to travel to britain to do it, repealing the 8th will remove this burden from women and allow them to avail of proper medical care from their own Doctor.

        2. kellma

          Correct. It stops the unborn fetus having the same status as the born woman who is carrying it and sustaining its life. The very fact that currently paralyzes doctors in their treatment of born women. There are no good or bad abortions. There are abortions and they are here already; just being shipped across the sea. What about the right to travel to have an abortion? Why don’t you repeal that while you keep the 8th, so you can be really smug and control other peoples lives then? If you don’t want or can’t have an abortion then don’t have one. Mind your own business what other people decide is right for them in their very personal and individual circumstances.

    4. Rob

      The vote to repeal the 8th amendment will remove all constitutional protections for the entity inside the pregnant woman. The Supreme Court confirmed this recently. So the poster is not without basis.

      There is to be provision for legislation on termination of pregnancy, with the suggestion of a 12 week limit being proposed currently. This is, however, a matter for the Dail of the day.

      If the repeal is passed, I do not see any legal impediment to full term terminations, until the envisaged legislation is commenced.

      1. Cian

        Wrong. if the repeal is passed, all that changes is the constitution.
        All the laws remain in situ. So the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act will remain in place, as do the other laws.

        The existing laws (that make abortion illegal, and have a 14-year penalty) will remain in place until the government decides to implement some other legislation that explicitly removes/supersedes the existing legislation.

        1. Rob

          Sorry, you are correct. There will be legislative protections, just not Constitutional ones.Thanks.

        2. david

          Constitutional law is what all legislated laws must comply with
          Without the unborn protected in the constitution all unborn are fair game
          We do not know if termination goes to full term
          Or mentally handicapped, downs syndrome ,physically handicapped, are protected.
          On a break up of a relationship the mother out of spite could get an abortion
          We are hoping this will not happen

          1. edalicious

            “On a break up of a relationship the mother out of spite could get an abortion”

            You really are a silly boo boo, aren’t you?

          2. kellma

            Great catastrophic thinking there. You also don’t know if the woman was raped or a victim of incest or domestic abuse where the husband uses s*x as a method of control. And as for the comment regarding a woman “out of spite” having an abortion…. well I love the attitude you have towards women. You sound like a real “good catch”. Some say “trust women”. You are clearly of the view ” women are not to be trusted”.

          3. Cian

            david, if these are your concerns, then I think you need to push to re-instate the 13th – and remove women’s right to travel.
            Because regardless of the 8th, a woman could do any of these things

          4. mildred st. meadowlark

            I think it stems from a very real misunderstanding on david’s part to understand the function of the 8th amendment within the constitution and its effects.

      2. david

        Well said
        I am sick and tired of saying this exact thing
        They refuse to tell us exactly what law they have planned
        Put the exact law on the ballot paper let people know e exactly what will happen

        1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

          It’s a constitutional referendum, david. It merely serves to amend (or not) the Constitution. It can’t be any more than that.

          1. Cian

            This is their proposed legislation.
            My personal opinion is that when (if) the 8th is repealed this text will be introduced into the Dáil and will be debated, and modified, and debated, and changed. The church, the pro-lifers, will start to lean on the TDs. The TDs will worry about their conservative voters and will water down this proposal.

            The final legislation will end up (my opinion) much more restrictive than this. Michal Martin will swing back towards pro-life and threaten the government stability.

            I would guess that the “12-week on demand” will become 10 weeks, with the agreement of a doctor + mandatory ‘re-training’. Other limits will be imposed.

            Jeez, I hope I’m wrong.

          2. mildred st. meadowlark

            I hope so too Cian.

            That seems alarmingly plausible, and rather typical of our elected government.

  2. Cian

    Perhaps the yes side should counter this with:

    “if you like puppies and kittens – vote YES”

  3. postmanpat

    Get a ladder and take it down. I’m sure the school caretaker has one lying around. If you’re that worried about upset children. No one is going to get in trouble for putting misinformation up so you shouldn’t get in trouble for taking it down. If your afraid of heights ask someone else to go up with a scissors.

    1. newsjustin

      It’s not misinformation though. And you shouldn’t take down other people’s posters.

      1. Cian

        if there were posters that were blatantly wrong – on either side – would it not be okay to take them down?

      2. Rep

        It is misinformation. It is implying that that is what people will be voting for when in fact that will still be the case regardless of how the vote goes.

          1. postmanpat

            Your not wrong. Remember Obamas, Hope & Change posters? What a crock that turned out to be.

  4. Shane Duffy

    Poor thing. Can you take anything for that irritation? If not it may well turn in that dreaded ailment, Offence.

          1. Cian

            fair to middlin’;
            Not as good pay as being a FG-SCUm
            And none of the job satisfaction of a Shinnerbot (which pays exactly minimum wage)

            You’ll have to ask dav what the rates for “blushirt” rants are

          2. kellma

            There is no money in it but you don’t go into professional ge*bagging for the money. It’s a vocation….. LOFL

          3. Cian

            Nigel – due to Rule 34; even if you just made up coffee-grinding for a laugh… it’s now a ‘thing’.

            *Edit: [shudders] okay – so it already *is* a thing.

          4. Nigel

            I know, even now there might be some fresh horror bubbling blackly in the dark moist aromatic nether-filter of the internet….

          5. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

            I coffeegrind using an electric machine, and I’m not ashamed of it. Is doing it in the kitchen unhygienic? I have questions. I wish Doctor Ruth was still alive. Hey! I just googled her. She is!

    1. dav

      their zealotry and hatred of women’s rights will only be quenched once we roll back the clock and give the church full control of our women and children again..

        1. dav

          so they can be abused or if they’re lucky, sold off to some rich yanks, for the golry of the church coffers

          1. newsjustin

            Why would you want that? I’m suggesting they live so they can live lives like the rest of us.

        2. Nigel

          Which the 8th amendment is failing at anyway, while putting human lives at risk by restricting their access to medical treatment.

  5. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

    I’ve noted the sign saying “One in 5 babies are aborted in England”. It should be “is”. That’s the worst thing about the poster, obv. Nothing else.

    1. LeopoldGloom

      Another note on this. Even if it were true, how many many of this 1 in 5 are the result of Irish people travelling over?

      1. Cian

        It is true. For every 4 live-births in England and Wales there is more than 1 abortion [for England or Wales residents)

        190,406 abortions carried out in England and Wales in 2016 [4,810 of these were non residents)
        696,271 live births in England and Wales in 2016

        Other facts:
        Ninety-two per cent of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation.
        Medical abortions accounted for 62% of the total.
        There were 3,208 abortions (2%) were carried out under ground E (risk that the child would be born ‘seriously handicapped’).
        Thirty-eight per cent of abortions in 2016 were to women who had had one or more previous abortions

        https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679028/Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

          1. Cian

            No it doesn’t include either.

            The number of stillbirths is so small (~3,100) it won’t affect the overall 5:1 ratio.

            Miscarriages are more difficult to quantify:
            1. many pregnancies miscarry before the woman is aware they are pregnant. *Nobody* know how many of these there are.
            2. many pregnancies miscarry after the woman is aware they are pregnant, but early enough they don’t seek hospital care. Since they don’t get hospital care these aren’t counted.

            and possibly there is an argument:
            3. if an abortion wasn’t done, the pregnancy /could/ have spontaneously miscarried.

      2. Cian

        Fact:
        1 in 10 Irish babies were aborted in England in 2001.

        In 2001 there were 57,854 live births in Ireland. There were 6,673 abortions in the UK for Irish registered women.

        The numbers of Irish births has risen since then (to 63,897 in 2017), and the number of UK abortions (for Irish registered women) has dropped (to 3,265). Last year 1 in 21 Irish babies were aborted in England. **** this drop in abortions doesn’t mean that Irish women weren’t having as many abortions — many went to other European countries — many are using pills bought online.

  6. LeopoldGloom

    Is it not too soon for posters to be up? In an election it’s no more than 30 days before the date of polling day.

    Awful things, should be banned altogether or have seriously heavy restrictions on how many can be put up in an area. Should be allowed nowhere near schools either ,

  7. TheRealJane

    I think it’s great to try and upset small children like this. I mean, some unscrupulous people might say that pro forced birthers are dead to morality and humanity, but then they post traumatic images where parents can’t shield their children from witnessing them with the actual motive of upsetting children and you have to agree.

    The people responsible for the placement of this gore porn should be answerable for their actions.

  8. Jimmey_russell

    can we not just do what we did during the gay marriage campaign and assault them and steal their signs when they’re putting them up?

  9. The Real Shrimply Pibbles

    I’ve got this deadly lightweight ladder that folds up into nothing. Well, almost nothing. Pretty small anyway. It goes surprisingly high and has a great grip on the bottom. Really transportable.
    I also have a surprisingly sharp felco secateurs. It’s all very surprising. I just hope all the anti choicers are as surprised when they see all their posters missing on Sunday morning in my area. Viva le revolution

  10. Daisy Chainsaw

    As with the Marriage Equality ref, antis have to resort to lies and scaremongering to try get their point across. People didn’t believe them then either.

    1. jusayinlike

      Thanks GG, I’m putting my swan neck snips in my jacket inside pocket now, any poster I see on an electric pole is being removed..

      1. ReproBertie (SCU)

        Good on ya but remember the ESB ad and ask yourself “Are you sure it’s safe?”. Would hate to lose you in a tragic poster removal accident.

  11. Sentient Won

    In absence of any published abortion legislation (assuming the Repeal vote carries the day) the the authors of this poster may very well be correct.

    The cowards on the Repeal side are too scared to let their true intentions be known cos they know the Irish people would run them out of town. Instead they lie, censor debate, rig the citizens assembly and create a ton of fake news to support their baby-murder agenda.

    They’re not above stealing the vote either.

    There are 56 million abortions carried world-wide out every year, that’s a lot of €.

      1. Sentient Won

        12 weeks?

        When a baby has fingers, toes, reflexes, a heart beat?

        And all coming from a group led by Leo ‘Not One Red Cent’ Varadkar?

        Only fools believe him.

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