Polish couples attackers spoke perfect English… in a Cork accent? hmmm.
All the hallmarks of travellers, or Islamic fundamentalists. If I was to take a wild guess I’d say travellers.
Drug gangsters would just get in and out using a gun, wanting to not leave any evidence.
Traveller gangs have these types of weapons, sickles, machetes..etc. whatever the animals can get their hands on.
The man they butchered worked in gardening & maintenance.. he was probably taking business from someone or had a run in with someone who had pals with machetes.
I doubt it was something from Poland catching up with him..whoever drove the car had local knowledge of the roads.
And of course not all travellers are evil animals who butcher people.
I’d say the guards have a fair idea who did this or will soon.
These people will be caught.
Harry Molloy
you’re a hard one to figure Anne
Brother Barnabas
you won’t find a finer example of the Dunning-Kruger effect than Anne
Harry Molloy
ow!
anne
As I said, no offence to travellers Harold.
Ollie Cromwell
Murder She Wrote
anne
She was always on the ball too in fairness..
Awful death though. Makes you wonder what types we have amongst our midst. As I said, I don’t think it’s Islamist fundamentalists.
Catherine costelloe
If they are caught they won’t stand trial for several years. Why is our justice system so slow? Take the case of Karen Buckley in Scotland. A missing person initially, then her remains found, a man arrested . Within the year a murder trial , a conviction and life behind bars. I’m sure not dragging the case on for years brought a measure of comfort to her heartbroken family. This savage attack of baraclava cladded , machete wielding feral’s deserves swift justice.
ivan
Well yes, but it helped that the murderer cooperated with the police and pleaded guilty, so no trial.
Catherine costelloe
There was a trial. The prosecution would have proceeded whether he pleaded guilty/ not guilty.
That’s a fact.
The Old Boy
I can state with authority that it is not a fact. A guilty plea leads to a sentencing hearing, not a trial.
As Lady Rae said in her sentencing remarks in that particular case:
“I shall take into account what was said by your senior counsel in mitigation and your relative youth and I shall have regard to your early plea of guilty, thus avoiding the necessity of a trial.”
@The Old Boy. He was standing trial for murder.The prosecution wait in Crown Court when he in the dock , charge put to him , how do you plead , guilty/ not guilty? If he said “not guilty” it would have commenced immediately for a full hearing with jury sworn in. If appearing at Crown Court whether guilty/ not guilty it’s a trial.
The Old Boy
No, it isn’t. You are entirely wrong. A person who pleads guilty to the charge or charges put to them does not stand trial. He was charged with murder, entered a guilty plea at the first appearance – which is most certainly not a trial. Leaving aside that this is Scots law, for a moment, that plea happens well before both sides have even begun to prepare for a trial as it is immediately after the accused has been charged. At this stage the court would usually order arraignment and the preparation of pre-sentencing reports to proceed at a later date to a sentencing hearing.
The suggestion that a trial would have commenced instantly with a jury ready to go had he pleaded not guilty is complete nonsense – this stage in the proceedings comes immediately (or “forthwith”, to use the statutory wording) after the end of the initial arrest and detention period.
The court then proceeded to a sentencing hearing and sentence. Again, a sentencing hearing is not a trial, even though prosecution barristers do appear on the sentencing point. A trial is the trying of a person’s innocence and ends in a verdict, which is obviously not in issue when the person has pleaded guilty. At no stage was he standing trial for murder.
This is not a thin or technical point, and the courts make substantial allowances in sentencing for those who plead guilty to spare the courts (and victims or their relatives) the massive cost and ordeal of preparing for and conducting an adversarial criminal trial. It also speaks directly to Ivan’s original point, about the speed of sentencing following his apprehension, due to the absence of a trial.
anne
+1 Awful stuff.. in front of the children too.
Catherine costelloe
@ The Old Boy. He would have appeared at Magistrates Court after charge of murder and could plead guilty. Due to serious crime he has to be sentenced at Crown Court. He is entitled to change his plea when charge of murder is again put to him at this hearing and a full trial with jury can commence that very day. The charge of murder in the UK is up in Crown Courts 3-9 months after police has charged the defendant. It’s 3-4 years here.
The Old Boy
Good grief, for a start, none of this has anything to do with him being on trial, which I have established that he wasn’t.
The plea in an indictable only offence (such as murder) is entered in the Crown Court after the defendant has been sent there forthwith by the Magistrates on being charged with the offence by police. No plea is taken or made in the Magistrates in an indictable only case.
“He is entitled to change his plea when charge of murder is again put to him at this hearing and a full trial with jury can commence that very day.”
Where on earth are you getting this nonsense? It’s ludicrous and without foundation in reality. A guilty plea can only be vacated after an application under CPR 39.3, and in order to be successful, “[t]he defendant must apply as soon as practicable after becoming aware of the grounds for making an application to change a plea of guilty” and the application must be on notice and in writing.
Neither the prosecution nor defence prepare speculatively for trials on the off-chance of someone changing their mind at the sentencing hearing. In any case, the charge is not put again at the sentencing hearing.
You are almost right in that the usual time it takes a murder to get to trial in the case of a guilty plea is a usually a shade under a year in England, compared to years in Ireland.
Catherine costelloe
@Hello again The Old Boy. You are being pedantic and contrary. Don’t suggest to me the Irish judicial system is functioning. Is it some 9,500 drunk drivers , disqualified from driving, are today driving around with full drivers licences? After appearing in Court, convicted and put off the road? In UK Courts on such a charge produce your licence, to be confiscated , sent to DVLA with your conviction noted. Turn up in Court with excuse that you forgot/ can’t find/ lost your licence. As a defendant you are rapped sharply , remand, find the licence or get a copy if lost but you HAND it into the COURT. ( and another 6 months disqualification added for not producing licence at 1st hearing). Maurice MC Cabe has shone a torch on policing. Potential is there to put us on map as great police force with members of his calibre.
We have320+ unsolved murders. A disgrace. Thousands ‘missing’ ….Daddy don’t preach.
The Old Boy
This is the last I will say on this. You used the specific example of the Karen Buckley case. I explained why it wasn’t comparable. You argued the toss, declaring things to be “fact”. I explained again, in some detail, why this was an important difference when drawing such comparisons, not a narrow or technical one, and you accuse me of being pedantic and contrary simply because it doesn’t suit you.
“Don’t suggest to me the Irish judicial system is functioning.”
At no point did I mention the Irish judicial system.
For what it’s worth, I do think that the Irish judicial system is grossly under-resourced to handle the current number of criminal cases and that a two or three year wait for a trial is an inordinate and inexcusable delay.
PlumBobSmearPants
Islamic fundamentalists???!!!!! WTF kinda bubble does your Irish fundamentalist brain live in?
bisted
…what about the catholic fundamentalists…wasn’t one of them found guilty of canniblism a few years ago…
PlumBobSmearPants
What about them?!
Peter Dempsey
Fair play for condemning the crime Anne. Many stay silent when it doesn’t involve a white collar.
dav
yes because white collar criminals are the REAL victims….
anne
You’re a howl Peter.
bz
Spanish doctor comes to Ireland once a month? It’s all relative though. You can earn €2,000 a month in certain parts of Spain and live quite well. You can rent an apartment for €500 a month, and if you’re in somewhere like Granada, which is 100 times more beautiful than any city in Ireland, you can eat out cheaply if that’s what you want to do. All relative….
anne
Summit of the century my hoop.
Anyone get the feeling the whole thing is staged?
I mean, there’s no doubt Trump & Un are two morons.. that bit isn’t staged but the whole signing of documents in front of the world’s press, the whole stage being set for the two goons making historic world peace. It’s just all too fupping stupid.
Polish couples attackers spoke perfect English… in a Cork accent? hmmm.
All the hallmarks of travellers, or Islamic fundamentalists. If I was to take a wild guess I’d say travellers.
Drug gangsters would just get in and out using a gun, wanting to not leave any evidence.
Traveller gangs have these types of weapons, sickles, machetes..etc. whatever the animals can get their hands on.
The man they butchered worked in gardening & maintenance.. he was probably taking business from someone or had a run in with someone who had pals with machetes.
I doubt it was something from Poland catching up with him..whoever drove the car had local knowledge of the roads.
And of course not all travellers are evil animals who butcher people.
I’d say the guards have a fair idea who did this or will soon.
These people will be caught.
you’re a hard one to figure Anne
you won’t find a finer example of the Dunning-Kruger effect than Anne
ow!
As I said, no offence to travellers Harold.
Murder She Wrote
She was always on the ball too in fairness..
Awful death though. Makes you wonder what types we have amongst our midst. As I said, I don’t think it’s Islamist fundamentalists.
If they are caught they won’t stand trial for several years. Why is our justice system so slow? Take the case of Karen Buckley in Scotland. A missing person initially, then her remains found, a man arrested . Within the year a murder trial , a conviction and life behind bars. I’m sure not dragging the case on for years brought a measure of comfort to her heartbroken family. This savage attack of baraclava cladded , machete wielding feral’s deserves swift justice.
Well yes, but it helped that the murderer cooperated with the police and pleaded guilty, so no trial.
There was a trial. The prosecution would have proceeded whether he pleaded guilty/ not guilty.
That’s a fact.
I can state with authority that it is not a fact. A guilty plea leads to a sentencing hearing, not a trial.
As Lady Rae said in her sentencing remarks in that particular case:
“I shall take into account what was said by your senior counsel in mitigation and your relative youth and I shall have regard to your early plea of guilty, thus avoiding the necessity of a trial.”
http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/8/1480/HMA-v-Alexander-Benjamin-Pacteau
really enjoy your comments, old boy. thanks.
@The Old Boy. He was standing trial for murder.The prosecution wait in Crown Court when he in the dock , charge put to him , how do you plead , guilty/ not guilty? If he said “not guilty” it would have commenced immediately for a full hearing with jury sworn in. If appearing at Crown Court whether guilty/ not guilty it’s a trial.
No, it isn’t. You are entirely wrong. A person who pleads guilty to the charge or charges put to them does not stand trial. He was charged with murder, entered a guilty plea at the first appearance – which is most certainly not a trial. Leaving aside that this is Scots law, for a moment, that plea happens well before both sides have even begun to prepare for a trial as it is immediately after the accused has been charged. At this stage the court would usually order arraignment and the preparation of pre-sentencing reports to proceed at a later date to a sentencing hearing.
The suggestion that a trial would have commenced instantly with a jury ready to go had he pleaded not guilty is complete nonsense – this stage in the proceedings comes immediately (or “forthwith”, to use the statutory wording) after the end of the initial arrest and detention period.
The court then proceeded to a sentencing hearing and sentence. Again, a sentencing hearing is not a trial, even though prosecution barristers do appear on the sentencing point. A trial is the trying of a person’s innocence and ends in a verdict, which is obviously not in issue when the person has pleaded guilty. At no stage was he standing trial for murder.
This is not a thin or technical point, and the courts make substantial allowances in sentencing for those who plead guilty to spare the courts (and victims or their relatives) the massive cost and ordeal of preparing for and conducting an adversarial criminal trial. It also speaks directly to Ivan’s original point, about the speed of sentencing following his apprehension, due to the absence of a trial.
+1 Awful stuff.. in front of the children too.
@ The Old Boy. He would have appeared at Magistrates Court after charge of murder and could plead guilty. Due to serious crime he has to be sentenced at Crown Court. He is entitled to change his plea when charge of murder is again put to him at this hearing and a full trial with jury can commence that very day. The charge of murder in the UK is up in Crown Courts 3-9 months after police has charged the defendant. It’s 3-4 years here.
Good grief, for a start, none of this has anything to do with him being on trial, which I have established that he wasn’t.
The plea in an indictable only offence (such as murder) is entered in the Crown Court after the defendant has been sent there forthwith by the Magistrates on being charged with the offence by police. No plea is taken or made in the Magistrates in an indictable only case.
“He is entitled to change his plea when charge of murder is again put to him at this hearing and a full trial with jury can commence that very day.”
Where on earth are you getting this nonsense? It’s ludicrous and without foundation in reality. A guilty plea can only be vacated after an application under CPR 39.3, and in order to be successful, “[t]he defendant must apply as soon as practicable after becoming aware of the grounds for making an application to change a plea of guilty” and the application must be on notice and in writing.
Neither the prosecution nor defence prepare speculatively for trials on the off-chance of someone changing their mind at the sentencing hearing. In any case, the charge is not put again at the sentencing hearing.
You are almost right in that the usual time it takes a murder to get to trial in the case of a guilty plea is a usually a shade under a year in England, compared to years in Ireland.
@Hello again The Old Boy. You are being pedantic and contrary. Don’t suggest to me the Irish judicial system is functioning. Is it some 9,500 drunk drivers , disqualified from driving, are today driving around with full drivers licences? After appearing in Court, convicted and put off the road? In UK Courts on such a charge produce your licence, to be confiscated , sent to DVLA with your conviction noted. Turn up in Court with excuse that you forgot/ can’t find/ lost your licence. As a defendant you are rapped sharply , remand, find the licence or get a copy if lost but you HAND it into the COURT. ( and another 6 months disqualification added for not producing licence at 1st hearing). Maurice MC Cabe has shone a torch on policing. Potential is there to put us on map as great police force with members of his calibre.
We have320+ unsolved murders. A disgrace. Thousands ‘missing’ ….Daddy don’t preach.
This is the last I will say on this. You used the specific example of the Karen Buckley case. I explained why it wasn’t comparable. You argued the toss, declaring things to be “fact”. I explained again, in some detail, why this was an important difference when drawing such comparisons, not a narrow or technical one, and you accuse me of being pedantic and contrary simply because it doesn’t suit you.
“Don’t suggest to me the Irish judicial system is functioning.”
At no point did I mention the Irish judicial system.
For what it’s worth, I do think that the Irish judicial system is grossly under-resourced to handle the current number of criminal cases and that a two or three year wait for a trial is an inordinate and inexcusable delay.
Islamic fundamentalists???!!!!! WTF kinda bubble does your Irish fundamentalist brain live in?
…what about the catholic fundamentalists…wasn’t one of them found guilty of canniblism a few years ago…
What about them?!
Fair play for condemning the crime Anne. Many stay silent when it doesn’t involve a white collar.
yes because white collar criminals are the REAL victims….
You’re a howl Peter.
Spanish doctor comes to Ireland once a month? It’s all relative though. You can earn €2,000 a month in certain parts of Spain and live quite well. You can rent an apartment for €500 a month, and if you’re in somewhere like Granada, which is 100 times more beautiful than any city in Ireland, you can eat out cheaply if that’s what you want to do. All relative….
Summit of the century my hoop.
Anyone get the feeling the whole thing is staged?
I mean, there’s no doubt Trump & Un are two morons.. that bit isn’t staged but the whole signing of documents in front of the world’s press, the whole stage being set for the two goons making historic world peace. It’s just all too fupping stupid.
It really is Idiocracy –
https://gizmodo.com/president-trump-made-a-fake-movie-trailer-for-kim-jong-1826755454