Vincent Browne and Elaine Byrne
Academic and corruption expert Elaine Byrne appeared on Tonight with Vincent Browne last night to discuss the recent overturning of certain findings of the Flood Tribunal.
There’s nothing like hard-hitting current affairs.
And this is nothing like hard-hitting current affairs.
Vincent Browne: “This is just amazing, that the tribunal, that has cost so much, spent years and years in operation, now is forced, Elaine, forced to withdraw findings of corruption against several people and maybe against many, many more, including, probably, Ray Burke.”
Elaine Byrne: “Well, you’ve done a good job there, Vincent of tarring all the tribunals and 15, 20 years of investigations in [one] foul sweep.”
Browne: “How did I do that, go on.”
Byrne: “Well I think it’s important..”
Browne: “How did I do that?”
Byrne: “First of all..”
Browne: “How did I do that, Elaine?”
Byrne: “First of all, I think it’s important to say that in relation to what happened in the Flood/Mahon Tribunal is not necessarily something that is relevant or pertinent to other tribunals of inquiry.”
Browne: “I didn’t say it was and nor did I infer it was.”
Byrne: “I didn’t say you did either.”
Browne: “Yes you did. You said that I tarred all tribunals.”
Byrne: “Well you used..”
Browne: “Go on, it’s a silly point, go on, you’ve made a silly point but go on.”
Byrne: “No you did, you…”
Browne: “Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on..”
Byrne: “I will go on if you stop saying, ‘go on’.”
Browne: “Go on.”
Byrne: “You made the very lazy, intellectual argument that a lot of people do when it comes to tribunals, that’s exactly what you did.”
Browne: “And what was that lazy intellectual argument?”
Byrne: “You said, you used the words, that they were, that they cost a lot and and, you know, what worth of the tribunal process.”
Browne: “I did not say anything about the tribunal process, I said nothing..I made a reference to the cost of the Flood Tribunal which wasn’t a lazy intellectual comment nor did I make any comment regarding what was the worth of the tribunals.”
Byrne: “Can I…”
Browne: “Go on, just go on and stop your point scoring. Go on.”
Byrne: “Thanks.”
Browne: “If you don’t want to go on, we’ll go to Stephen. But go on, yeah.”
Byrne: “The cost of the tribunals to date, at the very maximum level is about half a billion. And that costs, we haven’t, we have yet to see the final costs of the tribunals, we also have to remember that the cost basis for legal fees now are a very different cost basis than what they were. So when the final costs of what the tribunals have incurred come in, I think they’ll be significantly less under the €500million estimate. So if you’re going to do a cost-benefit analysis of the tribunals, it should also be important to look at what the tribunals have brought into the…”
Browne: “I’m talking about the Flood Tribunal..”
Byrne: “I know you are..”
Browne: “..with being forced to withdraw findings of corruption in many individuals.”
Byrne: “Let me finish, let me finish my argument, if I may go on.”
Browne: “Well, yeah, get to the point, go on.”
Byrne: “The tribunals to date have cost half a billion, however the tribunals have brought into the Exchequer, as a result of yields to the tax and revenue, about €1billion, that’s a direct consequence of the tribunals to the Exchequer and indirect costs of the tribunal..”
Browne: “Maybe get to the point that we’re making about the Flood Tribunal, that the Flood Tribunal has been found, being forced to withdraw findings of corruption against a number of people already, including George Redmond…”
Byrne: “I’m making two points. You won’t let me finish.”
Talk over each other
Browne: “It seems likely it’ll be forced to withdraw findings against Ray Burke.”
Byrne: “I’m making two points in relation to the tribunals, one is that the costs of the tribunals should also be looked…”
Browne: “Ok..”
Byrne: “..at, in terms of the benefit to the Exchequer…”
Browne: “OK..”
Byrne: “..which is what the tribunals have brought in..”
Browne: “We’re talking about the Flood Tribunal and in the context of withdrawing findings.”
Byrne: “…and indirectly the tribunals have brought to the Exchequer, as a consequence of Revenue investigations that wouldn’t have occurred, if it wasn’t for the tribunals, €2billion. The second point..”
Browne: “Ok, right. We know that, we know that.”
Byrne: “You…”
Browne: “Now just go on and deal with the point we’re talking about.”
Byrne: “The second argument..”
Browne: “…which is arising from the Flood Tribunal being forced to with draw findings of corruption..”
Byrne: “The second argument about the tribunal’s, I would like to make, Vincent, is that what happened in relation to the Flood Tribunal is not necessarily something that is relevant to what happened in the Moriarty Tribunal.”
Browne: “Nobody said it was.”
Byrne: “Well I know you haven’t but I think it is important to say that, when things are being said about tribunals that procedures…”
Browne: “Why don’t you just deal with the point that we’re trying to address.”
Byrne: “Well do you want to go to someone else because you’re not listening to me.”
Browne: “Yes ok, we’ll move on.”
Byrne: “It’s a waste of time.”
Browne: “Yeah.”
Watch here