From top: Taoiseach Leo Varadkar launching his ‘Welfare Cheats Cheat Us All’ campaign, when he was Minister for Social Protection in May 2017; the Public Accounts Committee this morning; Secretary General of the Department of Employment Social Protection John McKeon at the PAC
At a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee.
Officials from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection fielded questions from the committee in light of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s 2016 report’s findings on social welfare payments, overpayments and schemes.
The officials included Secretary General of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection John McKeon, above.
And how is the meeting going?
New secretary general of Department of Social Protection admits high-profile “welfare cheats cheat us all” campaign was a “mistake” amid significant Dail public accounts committee criticism over the policy.
“Eight out of the 100 companies with the highest taxable income had an effective tax rates of zero, including some which had negative rates, ie instead of paying corporation tax, they received rebates.
A further five had an effective rate of less than 1%
These very low effective rates reflected the use by the companies of significant tax credits and reliefs in particular double taxation relief and research and development tax credits.”
Comptroller and Auditor General Seamus McCarthy, this morning.
Head of Internal Audit Niall Kelly at the PAC in May
You may recall the Public Accounts Committee has been examining the Garda College in Templemore and its financial irregularities.
A timeline about these irregularities can be read here.
The PAC has recently held several meetings with senior civilian staff, including the Head of Internal Audit Niall Kelly.
At a previous meeting of the PAC, Mr Kelly said he would be completing two additional audits, on top of his overall examination of the Garda College.
These two extra audits were to involve an audit of EU funded programmes/projects; and a systems audit of cash and general management in the Garda College restaurant and shop.
Broadsheet understands that these two reports have been completed and sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General while the first (in relation to EU funding) has been sent to GSOC and OLAF (the EU’s anti-fraud office).
Mr Kelly is also expected to carry out an audit of investment accounts associated with the Garda College and review the interim audit on financial controls in the Garda College.
Broadsheet also understands that Mr Kelly has informed the PAC that while he had previously indicated, on July 5, that he was not given access to internal audit to two St Raphael’s Credit Union accounts managed from Templemore, account statements for the accounts have been provided to him.
However, he has warned PAC that he is still awaiting access to at least one other St Raphael’s account managed from Dublin.
He previously warned the PAC that there may be accounts unknown to his department to which public funds have been lodged.
Head of Legal Affairs Ken Ruane; Garda Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan
You may recall how Garda Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan has repeatedly told the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) that she first learned of the issues concerning the Garda College on July 27, 2015 when head of HR John Barrett briefed her and others.
Mr Barrett claims he was told by College Administrator Sgt Pat McCabe that Ms O’Sullivan knew as early as June 23, 2015, while Mr Barrett claims former Chief Administrative Officer Cyril Dunne told him Ms O’Sullivan knew on June 30, 2015.
Specifically, Ms O’Sullivan told PAC that, after she was briefed on July 27, 2015, she set up a working group to deal with the issues. But Mr Barrett also told PAC that a meeting on July 2, 2015 was “the first meeting of the steering group established to examine the issues”.
Further to this…
The Irish Independent is reporting that the Head of Legal Affairs Ken Ruane has written to PAC contradicting Ms O’Sullivan’s account of events from her most recent appearance before PAC last week.
Cormac Quinn reports:
During last week’s appearance at the PAC, Ms O’Sullivan said: “The fact is this [working] group was established and it was to go through the process of informing all the relevant parties, keeping the Department [of Justice] and everyone else informed of that.
“I entrusted the job, and the sequence with which that was done, to the group as it was established. It is my understanding that it is accepted practice that the Accounting Officer cannot have oversight and responsibility for absolutely everything.”
In his letter, Mr Ruane quoted this section of Ms O’Sullivan’s evidence.
He wrote: “In my personal capacity as an individual who was asked to be a member of this group, I do not accept and cannot agree with the statement made above by the Commissioner in the context of the process of ‘informing all the relevant parties’.”
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar taking Leaders’ Questions earlier today
Earlier this afternoon.
During Leaders’ Questions.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar was asked about the Garda College in Templemore, Co Tipperary.
Sinn Féin TD Mary Lou McDonald reminded Mr Varadkar of several items that emerged in the Public Accounts Committee yesterday, including:
Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan claims she first learned of the concerns about the Garda College on July 27, 2015 when head of HR John Barrett briefed her and others about the matters.
Mr Barrett claims he was told by College Administrator Sgt Pat McCabe that Ms O’Sullivan knew as early as June 23, 2015, while Mr Barrett claims former Chief Administrative Officer Cyril Dunne told him Ms O’Sullivan knew on June 30, 2015.
Either way, on July 31, 2015 – four days after the briefing from Mr Barrett – Ms O’Sullivan wrote a letter to the Comptroller and Auditor General Seamus McCarthy stating: “I have disclosed to you all the instances of loss, fraud or irregularity are known to have occurred or have been reported”.
But she didn’t disclose the matters concerning the Garda College to Mr McCarthy.
And the C&AG was only eventually made aware on May 31, 2016,by the head of internal audit Niall Kelly – who has previously cla
Readers may wish to recall that at a previous PAC meeting, on June 14, 2017, the current Chief Administration Officer at the College Dónall Ó Cualáin said:
“At that point [October 2015], the advice was that the legal advice had to be sought and obtained before Mr [Niall] Kelly could commence his work [audit], all the bank accounts had to be closed, and all the moneys and investments had to be brought into one account. All that work was ongoing.”
It’s understood this advice was not from Head of Legal Affairs Ken Ruane but from Cyril Dunne.
Further to this, Ms McDonald asked Mr Varadkar if he has confidence in Noirin O’Sullivan, who became interim Garda Commissioner in 2014.
Further to this…
Mr Varadkar replied:
“Yes, I do have confidence in the Garda Commissioner and the Government does, too. The problems that are besetting the gardai are long-standing. Many, most, if not all of the problems that beset the gardai predate her becoming Garda Commissioner. And I believe that she is somebody who is fighting many battles on many fronts in an effort to put things right.”
The [PAC] session was mammoth and the line of questioning was robust. But at times it seemed unfair to the witness.
O’Sullivan faced committee members that have already decided she is unfit for office. Can she expect a fair hearing when at least 10 of the 13 members have stated publicly they believe she should be removed as commissioner?
Fianna Fáil TD Marc Mac Sharry brought the committee’s attention to correspondence that was only made available to it this morning.
The correspondence is an email thread between Chief Financial Officer at An Garda Siochana Michael Culhane – who was head of finance in 2010 – and Eugene Banks, of the Garda division in from the Department of Justice.
It also includes emails from George Reddan, of PwC, to Mr Culhane.
After Mr Mac Sharry brought attention to these emails, An Garda Siochana’s Chief Administration Officer Joe Nugent told the PAC that he had received the material yesterday afternoon, even though it was datestamped as having been opened on June 14.
He said, because of this, Garda Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan hadn’t had a chance to read the correspondence in advance the meeting.
First of all, Mr Mac Sharry explained that it was John Barrett, head of HR, who sent the emails to Mr Nugent…
Marc Mac Sharry: “So basically, this document, as I said, I just got it, I didn’t see sight of it, I got wind that there may be a document in relation to charitable status. I asked for it. And this was produced. OK.
“Now for the record, the cover note, which I want to read into the record, it’s to the Chief Administration Officer [Joe Nugent], it’s from John Barrett, it’s dated the 13th of June 2017. And notwithstanding the fact that we appreciate that the CAO has said that he didn’t see it until yesterday, the 19th. It is the date stamp from his office, from the 14th of June.
“So somebody read it, in your [CAO Joe Nugent] office to the extent that they stamped it and if you were away or otherwise engaged, I’m sure there’s somebody with delegated responsibility in your office, that if something is important to pass on up the line, the Commissioner can clarify that.
“Anyway, I want to read this:
‘I refer to a hand-delivered document, an Oireachtas envelope, which arrived at the gate this morning. I’ve no idea of its provenance. It was collected by Mr Paul Flood from my office and this is a copy of the content which you may wish to note.
I’d respectfully suggest that you draw the attention of all the various correspondence to this document and provide them with copies, as a matter of courtesy.
Further, it seems to me, that the Public Accounts Committee may have an interest in the content and I will again respectfully suggest that this be brought to the attention of the PAC immediately.’
“So, let the record show, it wasn’t brought to our attention, we brought it to our own attention. Anyway, moving on, there’s one specific small email which does follow on from correspondence between PwC and Mr Culhane, in 2010, in relation to matters of taxation and all of the issues before us here today. And then, he, in turn, was obviously, corresponding or in contact with Eugene Banks of the Garda division of the Department of Justice.
“And one email I find extremely troubling. It’s one of the 5th of July 2010 at 17.26pm which seems to be a response to Eugene Banks of the Garda division, who is inquiring had there been any developments on the matter raised below. In particular, the relationship between the [Garda] College and the companies and the legal entity of the college itself.
Clockwise from bottom left: Chief Financial Officer Michael Culhane; Deputy Commissioner Dónall Ó Cualáin; Chief Superintendent Anne Marie McMahon; Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan; form Chief Administration Officer Cyril Dunne; Executive Director of Human Resources and People Development John Barrett and Head of Internal Audit Niall Kelly
This morning, Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan returns to the the Public Accounts Committee to field more questions about the Garda College.
You may recall reports of complex financial irregularities amid Byzantine-like accounting practices at the college in Templemore, Co Tipperary.
These irregularities concern matters of accounting and commercial practice, land ownership, the existence of unapproved bank and investment accounts, potential taxation and pension liability.
Plus questionable employment arrangements contrary to regulation, the collection of rental income from lands owned by the OPW, revenue generated in the Garda College ending up in more than 40 bank accounts and surplus funds – some of which should have been returned to the State – being used to purchase assets or put into private bank or credit union accounts or private Garda sporting facilities instead.
At its peak, a total sum of €2.3million in cash was held in various accounts, while questions remain over whether the Garda College is tax compliant.
Concerns about these financial irregularities were first reported by John Mooney, of The Sunday Times, in January of this year.
The Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan went on RTÉ’s Today with Seán O’Rourke, the following day, to say these matters were “legacy issues”.
Since then, an interim audit report about these irregularities was completed by the head of internal audit at An Garda Siochana Niall Kelly.
This audit report was given to the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in March. Mr Kelly was asked to examine the Garda College after concerns were raised by John Barrett, head of HR, in the summer of 2015.
The Garda College has since been the subject of three PAC meetings – on May 4, May 31 and June 14.
Contrary to the matters being solely “legacy issues”, as Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan, who became Garda Commissioner in 2014, maintained, Mr Kelly told one of these PAC meetings:
“I was asking questions in 2008 and 2009 but I was not getting answers. In March 2011, in relation to the 2010 accounts, I got assurances that issues were being addressed. What happened in 2011 was that effectively the college closed and there was very little activity. Between 2011 and 2014, if I had gone to audit I probably would not have found anything because effectively we were doing nothing. In 2014-2015 these issues started arising again. In 2016, we were brought in to do the audit.”
Head of Human Resources at An Garda Siochana John Barrett at a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee yesterday
Several senior members of the civilian staff at An Garda Siochana attended the Public Accounts Committee to discuss the internal audit report into the Garda College, compiled by head of internal audit Niall Kelly and given to the PAC earlier this year.
Mr Kelly’s report was carried out for head of human resources John Barrett, who started his job in October 2014, becoming aware of financial irregularities at the college in June 2015.
Mr Kelly’s report found concerns similar to ones previously highlighted in a separate report by Barry McGee in 2008.
Mr Kelly’s report audited expenditure worth €112million from January 1, 2009 to March 31, 2016 and identified 48 separate bank accounts relating to the college.
It found, among other matters, that money was transferred between accounts – for example, €400,000 was transferred from its bar account to its restaurant account, while €100,000 was transferred from its Sportsfield Co Limited to the Garda Boat Club, a private sports club.
It also found 37% of its laundry and services account had nothing to do with laundry or services and, instead, was spent on meals/entertainment, contributions to charity, contributions to parish clergy, and “golf society”.
In addition, rent worth €124,903 was collected for the use of Dromard Farm even though the OPW legally owned the land and, therefore, was entitled to the money.
Readers will recall how Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan told PAC on May 4 that she first learned of the concerns on July 27, 2015 and that, the following day (July 28, 2015) she set up a steering committee to look into the matters.
Further to this…
Those attending PAC yesterday included Mr Kelly; Mr Barrett; Michael Culhane – Executive Director, Finance and Services; Ken Ruane – Head of Legal Services; Joseph Nugent – Chief Administrative Officer; Michael Howard – former Head of the Garda Audit Committee.
Some notes from the meeting:
– PAC heard that, on June 30, 2015, Garda’s head of legal affairs Ken Ruane met Mr Barrett and was told about the issues relating to the college. Mr Ruane was also told that the matters had been reported to the Garda’s chief administration officer Cyril Dunne who passed them on to Ms O’Sullivan. Mr Ruane told PAC he had notes to prove his concerns were passed to Ms O’Sullivan.
– PAC heard that the steering group to look into the Garda College issues was in operation since July 2, 2015.
– None of the civilian staff at PAC could say definitively if An Garda Siochana is tax compliant.
– Head of Legal Affairs in An Garda Síochána Ken Ruane told the PAC he was asked to change minutes he took of a meeting of the steering group, on August 6, 2015, by the CAO Cryil Dunne.
– In a letter from Michael Culhane to Noirin O’Sullivan in October 2015, Mr Culhane asked: “Is JB (John Barrett) unwittingly guilty of a criminal offence under the Official Secrets Act?” Mr Barrett told PAC he sought, directly and through his solicitor, to get this letter six times but was denied. He eventually got the letter but 85% of it was redacted. At PAC, Mr Culhane admitted this claim was unwise.
– In a letter Michael Culhane sent to Niall Kelly in February of this year, he accused Mr Kelly of being unprofessional, misleading and mischievous. At PAC, Mr Culhane withdrew the claim.
– The PAC heard senior gardaí have made out cheques, of up to thousands of euro, to themselves.
– Mr Kelly said they are now being examined to see if these cheques have been vouched for – with one audit going back to 1998.
– Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy asked Mr Kelly if there was any indication of any Templemore monies being sent to a bank account in Dublin under the control of a former senior Garda officer. Mr Kelly said he’d rather not answer that question because it’s the subject of audit.
– In a June 25 email sent by Barry McGee, the author of a report in 2008 which identified many of the issues/concerns highlighted in Niall Kelly’s 2017 report, to John Barrett, Mr McGee wrote:
“I think the problem in approaching the solving of this, is that because of the potential negative reputational risk for the organisation – in that once this starts to be sorted it hits the public media, either though audit etc, it could have very big ramifications – like the accounting officer [Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan] appearing before the PAC, etc – so it is how to solve this quiety without risking exposure – again this is just my opinion – so this report was quiet [sic] sensitive – Michael [Culhane] has said it you wish to meet to discuss this etc might be useful – It is not necessarily a nice report, I would like to think that the report is more based on systems and how systems were set up and evolved possibly incorrectly particularly with view to the way government accounting and government accounting regulations apply currently.”
“For example, today or at the moment, the Garda Siochana organisation cannot for example open a bank account without seeking sanction from the DPERs, whereby if you have to write to them setting the purpose of the bank account and they give sanction for the same to open it – and of course setting up companies or entities would need ministerial sanction I would imagine as it is a big deal in principle to set up a sub company from a department – for example,
in terms of the purchase of land, this is a problem for the college because the Garda Commissioner is not meant to hold any lands under legislation as far as I am aware and such lands will have to be transferred by some mechanism to the OPW.
– Mr Kelly told PAC that, following a meeting on October 1, 2015, in which Noirin O’Sullivan perused the 2008 McGee Report, she felt the 2008 report was “overly critical”. Mr Kelly also said there was a reticence among Commissioner and others to accept the conclusions of the 2008 report.
Meanwhile, just before the meeting finished up last night, Mr Barrett said the following:
“Chairman, I come before you knowing the democratic power of this institution you represent the people of Ireland, you are the elected representatives. And I come here hoping to leave, having answered your questions fully and thoroughly.
I see this as a very significant matter for an organisation who must enjoy the trust of the people of Ireland, who must enjoy that trust because the powers that can be exercised – caution, arrest, detention – are of such constitutional significance that we need to have our house, not just in order, but in absolute order.
“So I sit here with a sense of embarrassment that we haven’t. But with no sense of personal regret that I raised this issue and that I continue to believe that I did the right thing in persisting.
“And there’s credit due to people on my right and on my left for their assistance in this regard. But I think it is clear, I feel quite frankly, that I didn’t have universal support and that reality is a reality that I want you to consider.
“I look, as I said to Mr [David] Cullinane, I look for no bouquets in this, I feel that I am doing my job but I want you to understand it’s not easy. And the assistance that you can give in ensuring that the standards that are required of us are demanded by you consistently and that we deliver – that will embolden others to do the right thing and to step forward in difficult situations. That is a key cultural change that you can help make.”
The PAC meeting can be watched back in full by downloading the video files from here [Committee Room 3].
From top: Head of Internal Audit at An Garda Siochana Niall Kelly; Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy
In the last 30 minutes.
During the closing stages of today’s meeting of the Public Accounts Committee.
Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy had the following exchange with head of internal audit Niall Kelly in relation to the Garda College, Templemore, Co. Tipperary.
Catherine Murphy: “Obviously, you’re going to come back to us, Mr Kelly, in relation, to the number of bank accounts, and you’re looking at that at the moment and you probably were looking, and I’m not sure whether it’s yourself, or Mr [Chief Administration Officer Joseph] Nugent, who would have been, when the bank accounts were being closed, if anything was discovered.
“Can I just ask you, very specifically, if there’s any indication of any Templemore monies being sent to a bank account in Dublin under the control of a former senior Garda officer and whether or not you’re carrying out a specific investigation in relation to that or anything of that nature?”
Niall Kelly: “Chair, I’d rather not answer that question because it’s the subject of audit…”
Talk over each other
Murphy: “But there is an audit?”
Kelly: “There is an audit.”
Murphy: “Of that nature?”
Kelly: “There are some issues that you touched on that could be issues within our audit.”
An Garda Siochana’s executive director in finance and services Michael Culhane, head of internal audit Niall Kelly, head of human resources John Barrett at PAC this morning
You may recall head of human resources at An Garda Siochana John Barrett.
He was the civilian member of the guards who told Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan about the financial irregularities at the Garda College in Templemore, Co Tipperary on July 27, 2015.
This is the date Ms O’Sullivan told the PAC, on May 4, that she first heard of the irregularities.
Mr Barrett claims they, and others, discussed the matters for more than two hours. Ms O’Sullivan said they were discussed over a “very brief” meeting while having tea.
You may also recall how, in his notes, of the July 2015 meeting, Mr Barrett maintains he was “counselled to be very careful” when he “referred to the loss of all books of account prior to a date which coincided with the retirement of a restaurant manager”.
In September 2015, Mr Barrett urged Ms O’Sullivan to inform the Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald and the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) of his concerns about Templemore but Ms Fitzgerald wasn’t informed until some weeks later.
Further to this…
Several civilian members of An Garda Siochana are before the Public Accounts Committee today.
Niall Kelly – Head of Internal Audit (author of the audit report); John Barrett – Executive Director, Human Resources and People Development; Michael Culhane – Executive Director, Finance and Services; Ken Ruane – Head of Legal Services; Joseph Nugent – Chief Administrative Officer; Michael Howard – former Head of the Garda Audit Committee.
Mr Kelly, who was the author of Garda College interim audit report on serious financial irregularities at the Garda College, was the only person to give an opening statement to the Public Accounts Committee.
In it, he said:
“In regards to interference and non co-operation and withholding of information from internal audit, there are three periods of time that should be considered. Firstly, the period from 2008 to 2011. Secondly, the period from July 2015 to March 2016 and thirdly, the period from September 2016 to March 2017.”
Further to this…
Readers should note documentation sent to the Public Accounts Committee, ahead of today’s meeting, includes a letter which was sent from the executive director of finance Michael Culhane to Noirin O’Sullivan on October 25, 2015, urging her to investigate Mr Barrett.
In relation to this letter…
Catherine Connolly: “As a lay person looking at it, and we have all these reports and they haven’t been acted on, isn’t that right? 2006, I don’t know what happened the 2006 report. But the 2008 [McGee] report made very strong recommendations. Your colleague Mr Kelly says some were acted on, some were reversed and some weren’t acted on at all. Can you stand over that?”
Michael Culhane: “Well, I can’t stand over that because I mean, I can only…”
Connolly: “You can or you can’t?”
Culhane: “I can-well in terms of, I can only give advice.”
Connolly: “No, can you stand over that, sorry? Do you accept that the 2008 [report] wasn’t implemented.”
Culhane: “I do yes.”
Connolly: “Ok, and that parts of it that were implemented were reversed, that’s what Mr Kelly says clearly in…”
Culhane: “I accept his evaluation.”
Connolly: “You accept that, ok. Have you confidence in your colleague Mr [John] Barrett?”
Culhane: “I accept his professionalism, yes.”
Connolly: “You do. But, at the same time, you’d like him to be examined under the Official Secrecy Act?”
Culhane: “Well, I had concerns about, I had concerns about, in terms of what he actually, the manner in which he was treating confidential documents.”
Connolly: “And do you still have concerns?”
Culhane: “Well, given the passage of time, and on reflection, no I don’t.”
Connolly: “Ok, and do you regret doing that?”
Culhane: “I suppose with the benefit of hindsight, it probably wasn’t wise to make that statement.”
A few seconds later
John Barrett: “I have asked three times myself personally, four times through my solicitor to have the document that has just been referred to, that was released to your committee [PAC] yesterday, given to me. 85% of the document, that eventually was released under Freedom of Information – consider how this might play – was redacted in protection of the very issues that the Finance Director has now discussed. That reflects the situation in its reality.
“And his correspondence was made available to your committee, I think it’s important that you have it. I discovered the existence of that letter almost a year to the day after it had been written. I think it is appalling that such information and the interesting inversion of trust that was presented to you, appalls me.
We requested legitimately a letter written about me, that I had no knowledge of, that alleges a potential criminal offence, breaks of natural justice, constitutional procedure, none of that existed. And I discover it, yesterday, as being included in the PAC to this committee.”
Sean Fleming (chairman): “Which letter are we referring to?”
Barrett: “The letter of the 25th of October 2015…”
Alan Kelly: “Just to clarfiy, you were not aware that this was, it wasn’t provided to you under the requests that you made, but yet it was provided to this committee.”
Barrett: “Yes, sir… I wrote directly, myself, when I became aware this letter existed, I asked for a copy…I wrote to the Commissioner three times to the best of my knowledge.”
Sinn Féin TD David Cullinane at PAC this morning
David Cullinane: “There’s been two sets of correspondence. One in relation to Mr Barrett where you attempt to undermine his work and another set of correspondence in relation to Mr Kelly, where you attempt to undermined his work and you say in writing that the report was ‘unprofessional, misleading and mischievous’. So you have a duty and responsibility to inform this committee today, how you believed that his report was unprofessional, misleading and mischievous. You have a duty and you haven’t done that. So please explain to me how the report was unprofessional, misleading and mischievous.”
Culhane: “There’s a lot of working parts in the report and, indeed, in the operation of An Garda Siochana. So, I suppose, by summary of views that I had in terms of the contents of the report, and I again, you’ve said it several times before, but I mean there was a history there, which, in relation to the college which wasn’t adequately explained.”
Cullinane: “Do you believe, one final question: And I want to put this to Mr Kelly and Mr Barrett, do you believe, Mr Kelly, when that letter was written and when Mr Culhane said your report was unprofessional, misleading and mischievous and he went further and asked you to amend your report, did you see that as a direct interference in your report and an attempt to get you to either water down or lessen the content of your report?”
Niall Kelly: “Yes.”
Cullinane: “Yes. And did you have a similar experience, Mr Barrett?”
Barrett: “With respect to the letter of October 15, I never saw the letter until yesterday.”
Cullinane: “But now that you’ve seen it, would you see that as an attempt to undermine…”
Barrett: “Absolutely, very deliberate collaring of what I felt was my obligation to deal and illuminate these matters which have long since been left to continue.”
Cullinane: “And do you now see that as serious, Mr Culhane, that we have the head of internal audit and we have the head of human resources, both seeing it in the same way that I can, that you tried to undermine their work. We talked earlier about the circling of the wagons, about, you said it yourself, things should be kept inhouse, do you not see that you are part of the problem? And that you, by what you’ve put in writing and we’ve heard from two senior people, in civilian roles in An Garda Siochana, they felt you were trying to interfere with their work.”
Sean Fleming (chair): “Just answer that last question.”
Culhane: “I don’t see, I don’t see myself as being part of the problem. I think I see myself as being part of the solution because of the actions that I have taken on the issues identified in the 2008 report. I had no desire to undermine the professionalism of these two gentlemen. Niall Kelly is an independent auditor and he produces his reports without any, in terms of, without any need for any reference to me. So, I don’t see that I’d be interfering with his independence.”
Cullinane: “You tried to get him to alter his report. You threatened him with legal action. You said if he did not amend his reports, you would seek legal advice and you would take legal action and you’re sitting there telling me that you did not try to interfere with the work of internal audit. It’s incredible for you to say that. How could you threaten legal action against the head of internal audit, almost unprecedented, and then say ‘that wasn’t an attempt by me to interfere with the work’. You cannot say that Mr Culhane.”
Fleming: “Mr Culhane, today, in front of the PAC, do you still stand over that sentence: “in omitting these acts, the report is unprofessional, misleading and mischievous” today, the 31st of May 2017, would you agree with that today?”
Culhane: “On reflection, chairman, I probably, it was an unwise use of those words.”
Fleming: “Would you like to withdraw that statement?”
Culhane: “I think it would be, yes…”
Fleming: “Because before the committee, that statement is in writing before this committee.”
Culhane: “Yes I would like to withdraw it yes..”
Fleming: “You’ll withdraw that statement then?”
Fleming: “That’s helpful.”
Labour TD Alan Kelly at PAC earlier today
Barrett: “…in the period that had elapsed from July  when I originally prepared a report to go to Mr [Michael] Howard, through Mr [Cyril] Dunne, and we’re reaching now into the third week of September and I have concerns that the thing is not being treated in the multi-million off-balance sheet as Michael Culhane described it activity that is continuing. It is an active, ongoing enterprise within an organisation that I have line responsibility for. And so, in setting it out very clearly, I do go through the very specific issues that Fennelly raises in relation to what a Section 41[which provides that anything of significant relevance should be brought to the attention of the Minister for Justice] is intended to do and how it is that this applies absolutely to the matters of gravity that I dealt with in my report of the 6th of July. And I was very deliberately putting it on the record.”
Alan Kelly: “How would you see Mr [Cyril] Dunn reacted?”
Barrett: “I think that question could be better put to Mr Dunne but…”
Kelly: “Of course, but I want your opinion.”
Barrett: “My opinion is that we were at that point into a situation where the past history that I’d become aware of was repeating itself, as in the 2008 report, nothing was done, it continued. I felt there was a danger, quite frankly that my report of July 2015 was going to go the way of its predecessors.”
Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy
Catherine Murphy: “Another thing that strikes me, I’d like to clear a few of these things first, one thing that strikes me is: the idea that you were keeping contemporaneous notes, that you were referencing some of your meetings with Mr [head of legal affairs Ken] Ruane, the idea that the internal auditor [Niall Kelly] is sending himself registered, it is yourself Mr Kelly...?”
John Barrett: “Oh, I do that, I do that.”
Murphy: “I mean that strikes me as a self protection mechanism. Would that be correct?”
Barrett: “Let’s look at what we’ve recently read in our newspapers, concerning whether records were destroyed or whether telecommunications equipment survived. I was very conscious of the fact is that what I was dealing with here was well known, understood for a number of years and the curiosity in my mind was why was this not dealt with expeditiously?”
Barrett: “Relating to material sums of money, in the public vote, in the period 2004 – 2014, it’s €12.4million of taxpayers’ money…”