NeilFrancis-94-gallery_55930955_nigel_owens_get[Neil Francis, top and Nigel Owens, above]

 

Neil Francis appeared on Today FM’s The Last Word with Matt Cooper this evening to explain his comments regarding gay people and sports. They were joined by Nigel Owens, the first openly gay international rugby referee.

Matt Cooper:“I’ve know Neil Francis for over 20 years. I’ve worked with him at the Sunday Tribune, when I was the editor there. He was rugby columnist from 1996 onwards, and when I came here in 2003 to present the Last Word he’d already been contributing as a rugby analyst and he’s continued to do so over the last 11 years, as one of our main rugby analysts.
Yesterday, Neil was on another radio station, he was on Newstalk. As part of a panel discussion he was discussing an article, an excellent article that Joe Brolly wrote for yesterday’s Mail on Sunday about homosexuality and sport. He made a number of comments which you have have seen in various reports today, you may have seen on various websites, which were in my view highly offensive and downright stupid.
Some of the comments are like this, about people who are gay and play sport, ‘What are their interests? Have you ever sat down with homosexual people and asked them what their interests are? Very often they have no interest in any kind of sport. That’s my experience from sitting down with them. I’ve done it on a regular basis.’ Here’s another one, ‘You do a survey of the hairdressing industry and find out how many heterosexuals work in that. There are a wide range of people who are homosexual, the environment that they’re in isn’t something they are interested in. Do you know what I’m saying?’ and another one ‘it’s all based …. it’s not a generalisation. In every sphere of life, every year that you meet a gay man or gay people in a social environment, they’ve very little interest in sport. I don’t have an interest in ballet.’
He was also asked about Michael Sam, a gay American Footballer, a college student who’s about to be drafted, who recently came out. He said, ‘I noticed him because he was very flamboyant, a bit of a showman.’ He equated Sam’s ‘coming out’ with ‘Jimi Hendrix talking about Janis Joplin’s death as a great career move.’
Before I talk to Neil Francis, I want to play a bit of audio for you. This is a man called Dale Hansen from News 8 in Texas, who made a comment, made a little speech on television the other day about Michael Sam, and his potential in the draft. [Watch here]

Cooper: “That was Dale Hansen, of News 8, talking in Texas about Michael Sam. Neil Francis good evening to you.”

Francis:
“Hi Matt.”

Cooper: “Neil, you’ve taken a lot of criticism over the last 24 hours. You’ve had a lot of time to reflect on what you said. What is your position now?”

Francis: “Well, I, when I got home I had a listen to the interview again, and I must say it was, it didn’t sound at all like me in a sense. A lot of people who listened to it sort of said ‘that’s not your form, and I realised I was in a kind of, a field of landmines, and I stood on one or two. And, some of the points I was trying to make were, I suppose, very clumsily made, and my language and the analogies I was trying to make were quite poor, and quite poorly expressed, and it’s just unusua for me not to be able to articulate myself but on this instance I was unable to do so.
So, listening to what I said last night, OK on reflection, I probably said some of the wrong things, and the things were extremely clumsy, and in this instance, on reflection, I would like to withdraw those comments and apologise profusely and unreservedly for any issues that might have offended anyone who might have heard them or who felt offence from what I said.”

Cooper:
“Nigel Owens, good evening to you.”

Nigel Owens: “Good evening.”

Cooper: “You’ve heard about what Neil Francis said, I’m aware, you heard him there apologise, is that god enough for you?”

Owens: “Yes, it’s good that he’s been able to go back and reflect on what he said. We all make mistakes in our lives. I’ve made mistakes, I’ve made mistakes on the field, and apologies are fine as long as those apologies are genuine and from the heart, and I certainly hope that Neil’s apologies are genuine and are from the heart and not something that he’s been pressurised into with all the outpouring that has come from all walks of life. Irish player, Welsh players, people all over twitter and stuff the last 24 hours, Facebook, you know have been condemning his words. If his apologies are genuine then it is good to hear him apologise. I don’t know Neil personally, I’ve never met him, I know of him. I can’t say what the man is like because I don’t know. If they are genuine then it’s good to hear that

[talk over each other].

Cooper: “Nigel, Neil’s just after saying that he did meet you but you obviously didn’t make enough of an impression when you met him.”

Owens: “Well, I’ll remember you next time, that’s for sure!”

Cooper: “Can I ask you Neil: this is a genuine apology that you’re giving?”

Francis: “It is. I mean people know who I am, I say what I mean. I wouldn’t say this unless I meant it.”

Cooper: “Back to you Nigel. You wanted to come in again there.”

Owens: “No, this is what I think, you know. I’ve had people in this situation before saying things and they didn’t mean it that way, and that’s where we have, especially someone with Neil’s stature, and the responsibility that he has, about wearing that green jersey 15- 20 years ago,the responsibility he has and the influence also you must remember.
I think we just have to sometimes think long and hard before we say things because when we give things out there… everyone has his opinion and is entitled to his own opinion, and that should always be respected, but when that opinion is given out there and it’s the wrong opinion, you know I’ve sat down with people from sport who are gay, who are not out and who are out and I don’t know who Neil has sat down and spoken to but certainly they’re not the people I have sat down and spoken to, and I know a lot of gay people in rugby from the professional end to the community end of the game, and I know many more who haven’t had the courage yet, for whatever reason, to come out or don’t want to come out and that has to be respected aswell. It is their choice.
I think this is a message for everybody out there to think sometimes, sometimes after we’ve said it we realise what we said and the context it’s been taken in. It is a message learned for people here. Make sure you think thoroughly about what you’re saying and get your facts right asel you know.”

Cooper: “Neil, one of the reaons why i was so shocked and offended by what you said yesterday when I read the transcripts and when I listened back today was, I remember our time in the Sunday Tribune, that you assisted a rugby player who actually decided to come out, by writing his story in the Sunday Tribune with him at the time.”

Francis: Yeah, there are a couple of issues in relation to that story, I’ll come back to that. There was another one: I took part in a documentary there called ‘Queer the Pitch’ which was a documentary about Emerald Warriors and they are I think an exclusively gay club set up in Dublin in 2003, and you know, I was quite forthright in my views there. And one of the points i made to one of the producers was that ‘did you have to feel that you had to set up an exclusively gay club because you couldn’t assimilate with the rest of them?’ and it was their contention, and that was the case that none of the players that joined the Emerald Warriors were happy to exist as an openly gay man.
They formed their own club, which was a great thing. The other one, yeah there are two rugby players that I know that subsequently came out. One of them I wrote a piece, with respect to all the people involved it was probably the best piece I’d ever written but what actually appeared in the Sunday Tribune, it was cut to pieces, but it was a very very good piece.
He approached me at a wedding, he told me he had come out, he introduced me to his boyfriend and we were chatting away. I had known the guy a long long time. He was a very good friend of my brother’s. and he said ‘look this would be a great piece’ and I said ‘are you sure you want to write it’ he said ‘yeah, yeah’ so we sat down. It was the most informative 4 or 5 hours I’ve ever had with this guy. Even though he’s a friend of my brother’s I wasn’t too friendly with him although i would have known him well. He was in a position where he played an awful lot of rugby, he was a representative player, and he felt that the only way he could express himself was after his rugby career so he packed up his rugby (he still had another year or two to go) and he felt he couldn’t operate within the Club or the rugby environment as a gay man. He opted out of the rugby scene and he was quite happy to express himself, he was very vocal, and again the support he got from literally everybody from his work to his friends to his rugby friends was fantastic. I see him every now and again and he’s very happy in his choice, in his lifestyle.”

Cooper: “Given that, in some respects makes what you said yesterday even more shocking. I know you said, you’ve apologised for it, but it seems all the more remarkable that would would have been as stupid as you were yesterday in what you said.”

Francis: “Well look, I would consider myself to be reasonably media savvy and I knew I had wandered into a situation where you were walking on eggshells. Some of the people have reacted to what I said without actually listening to the interview which was very disappointing and some of the social media have attributed comments to me that were absolutely false which was a disgraceful way to portray what I had said and what I hadn’t said and they’ve taken license to. Anyone who has any issue should listen to it, it’s a poor interview. The reason we came on was because there was fantastic material beforehand with Paul O’Connell, Paul Kimmage, David Corkery, with Vincent Hogan and there were one or two other things: David Moyes etc etc and that was brilliant. We were half an hour over time and I didn’t get a chance to read Joe Brolly’s piece and I still haven’t had a chance to.”

Cooper: “You should, it’s an excellent piece.”

Francis: “An excellent piece. He’s fearless, he speaks his mind. So I didn’t get a chance,but what I did know is that I had watched, I had watched Michael Sam play for Old Missouri against, I think it was Vanderbilt, and he was, absolutely, he stood out as a brilliant player. and even in defence of what I said about a good career move, now that was, and I’m not trying to work my way out of it, that was badly expressed, but you know what I’m saying is that this guy can be an icon for the gay community, he is such a brilliant player, and he has made a move that is almost unprecedented in the United States of America. Now, we talked about this before, there are plenty of gay NFL players playing in the NFL, alot of them wait until their career is over for them to come out. This guy has done it the other way around.”

Cooper: “Ok, I want to bring in Nigel Owens again. Nigel, how long is it since you came out?

Owens: “I came out to my family and friends in 2005. It hit the papers and went national , but I guess everyone knew before then, in 2007 just before I went to the World Cup.

Cooper: “And what was the reaction in rugby to you?”

Owens: “The reaction in rugby was very supportive, the positives outweighed the negatives by a long long way. and that will tell you what a great sport rugby is and what great men we have in rugby from the players to the officials to spectators, the supporters, administrators and everybody involved in the game will show you what a great sport rugby is. Rugby has showed the way. I came out in 2005 and 6 or 7 years after I think, Gareth Thomas came out. Rugby has showed the way to a lot of other sports. Sport is for all. Wherever you are or wherever you’re from you should be able to feel safe and feel welcome in whatever chosen sport you choose as an individual or as a team aswell. That is why I was taken a bit aback by this.
It wasn’t a case of saying one or two things out of context, it was saying a lot of things, saying players, gay people, were not interested in sport, which was wrong, saying that the changing room is homophobic which is wrong, and then to bring in the stereotype of ‘he doesn’t like ballet’ you know yes it’s great that he has apologised now and I hope that people accept that apology but a lot of things we said yesterday, it wasn’t just one or two comments that were out of line, it was a whole couple of minutes and I just don’t understand where it came from. That’s what was disappointing but rugby, as I said, has shown the way.
Now I spent, about a year ago, maybe a bit less, I spent many hours over a few days, a few weeks, with a young rugby player in Wales who had contemplated taking his own life, and I came from that situation. I did something one night that I would regret for the rest of my life. I left a note for my Mum and Dad and told them I couldn’t carry on anymore because I was dealing with who I was and this rugby player who I spoke to a couple of years ago was going through the same thing and I spent a long time with him getting him to accept who he was first of all, because that’s the biggest challenge, it’s accepting who you are. And then there was the other challenge, that I also had to go through, and this other guy had to go through, if he has made the decision to come out, is he going to be able to be himself in his sport? and I finally got the message across, and he’s finally got on with his life. He’s accepted who he is, he’s kept it himself and that has to be respected. If that’s the way h wants to live him life then huge credit for doing that.
When you have people of Neil’s stature coming out and saying what he did yesterday I don’t think people realise the influence they have. There are a lot of young people out there who are finding it difficult to deal with issues, are finding it hard to come to terms with who they are. It has a huge influence and we are working hard to try and get these people… we dont want to go out and shout it from the rooftops that we are gay, we just want to be ourselves and get on with our life, it’s a very sad world when you think that an individual has to choose between ‘can I carry on with my sport?’ or ‘can I carry on with who I am?’ and it’s a very sad state that somebody has to make that choice. Nobody should have to make that choice and thankfully things are getting better. That’s why people like Neil have to be careful in what they say, you know.”

Cooper: “Ok, Nigel…”

Owens: “Apologising afterwards is fine but it puts a lot of people in a very tough situation when they hear these negative comments.”

Cooper: Ok, Nigel Owens that you very much for talking with us. I’m going to give you details in a moment about an event that you are doing, a fundraiser early in March. Neil Francis, thank you for joining us. I certainly accept your apology as being genuinely offered and I hope that people do accept it aswell and that you have come to appreciate the awful mistake that you made yesterday.

Listen here

Earlier: “It’s Not A Generalistaion.”

Pics: irishRugby.ie and Getty

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