“This Is Very Much A Racist Policy As Well As A Misogynist Policy”

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A video from last night’s protest over the treatment of ‘Migrant X’ on Dublin’s O’Connell Street.

Previously: Not In Our Name

Via USI Ireland

219 thoughts on ““This Is Very Much A Racist Policy As Well As A Misogynist Policy”

  1. Jock

    Come on, don’t bring race into it. There are many things wrong with this situation but racism is not one of them.

    1. Kill The Poor

      Ireland is such a racist country. Race has everything to do with it.

      Funny coincidence that this girl and Savita Halappanavar are both non white & non irish.

        1. Sidewinder

          Three deaths of migrant women in two years where neglect has been a major factor in a country where the maternal mortality rate is about 12 per year? Seems statistically significant to me.

          1. Bobby

            That’s not how statistics work. If a white, Irish girl had been in Savita Halappanavar’s position, the same outcome would have occurred. The problem isn’t racism, and I’d argue that it’s not even misogyny. It’s bureaucracy that’s caused the problems. People aren’t seen as humans by any of our systems. One person deals with you, shifts you on to the next person and forgets about you. If something happens between you being shifted from one person to the next, you become lost in the system.

            By all accounts this is what happened in this case.

          2. Sidewinder

            No, if a white Irish girl had been treated the same as Savita, the same thing would have happened. What makes it racist is that a white Irish girl would not have been treated that way.

          3. Pablo

            ….in your opinion, which is based entirely on speculation. Paranoid, groundless speculation at that.

          4. Medium Sized C

            If I was studying whether Ireland is a racist country or not, then no, I wouldn’t call it statistically significant.

            I would call it devoid of any context and just dumb numbers.

        2. WhoAreYa

          It’s no fupping coincidence.

          Neither is it ‘funny’ that your puerile attempts at semantic point-scoring cloud the issue.

    2. Sidewinder

      @Jock

      Think over all the recent stories of horrendous treatment of women in Irish maternity services. I count two African women, two Indian women and MigrantX. Can’t recall any stories of Irish women, don’t know if this is because we don’t say anything or because it’s a racial issue but you certainly can’t say it isn’t.

      And it is a fact that non-Irish women are more detrimentally affected by the ban. Many can’t leave Ireland because of uncertain residency status.

      1. True Son of Erin?

        Is there some reason that you don’t count Nora Hyland Sidewinder? Or does she not count because she was Malaysian?

      2. munkifisht

        Ireland is still a racist country, although it’s generally an undercurrent of racism rather than straight out hatred. Probably more true to say though we’re Xenophobic, especially against British and Germans.

        This said, I’m not sure that because you can’t recall any Irish born women means that it’s a racist issue. The truth of the matter is that people born into this quagmire of a country have a much better idea of the type of crap the state gets up to, how utterly unreliable the political classes are, and how when it comes to the separation of church and state, how complicit they are in maintaining the status quo rather than brining our country into the modern age.

        I am not suggesting this is the reason you don’t hear about Irish born women, but perhaps they are more canny than to rely on the pathetic state to help in these cases and are aware that in order to get an abortion they need to travel to a first world country like the Britain to get this done.

        1. Llareggub

          I do wonder if it had been a poor vulnerable Irish girl under the care of the HSE – would she be treated any differently. I don’t think she would. And yes those with some support and enough money would for sure have travelled to Britain rather than go through that sort of prolonged humiliation.

      3. Jock

        Have you been in a maternity ward recently? Plenty of foreign mothers.

        Her main issue was not having the cash to head to England which you can blame on her own circumstances and decision to come to Ireland.

        1. Lorcan Nagle

          Reading between the lines of the case as laid out in the Times on Tuesday, Migrant X is almost certainly an asylum seeker rather than a “normal” immigrant. She apparently had to wait 6 weeks to get travel documents to allow her to go to the UK and return to Ireland, which is a known stipulation for asylum seekers.

          1. Sidewinder

            @Jock – there are plenty of Irish mothers too, yet far fewer reported cases of Irish women dying from neglect.

            Med C addresses the issue quite well I think, certainly better than I, – it’s a mild undercurrent of racism that causes such neglect that can so quickly turn minor cases into major ones. No-one is suggesting it was intentional neglect because of vicious “they took our jobs” type racists.

            Savita and Dhara’s partners both expressed serious concern over their wives’ conditions but these concerns were not taken seriously by staff at the hospital. As someone who works in the healthcare system I witness migrants being treated differently on a regular basis. Their concerns are dismissed and their complaints ignored because it is assumed that they are over reacting and “don’t know how things work here”.

            This is neglect plain and simple and in maternity care things can turn very serious very quickly so it is important concerned aren’t ignored. I think it extremely likely that cultural misunderstanding and what one might term “mild racism” had an important role in the deaths of four migrant women in maternity care in Ireland.

          2. WhoAreYa

            It’s not about that Sidewinder

            It is about the fact that immigrants in general will receive a hostile attitude when trying to access public services here, as will travellers, unmarried mothers and other marginalised groups. If you walk into any dole office any day you will see it.
            I am sure it is no different in a hospital.

            You and Medium C can wind yourselves in knots as to ‘how’ racist that is if you want, I call it for the meaningless, irrelevant, sanctimonious bullshit it clearly is.

            I date someone from another Northern European country – and the amount of ignorance and blank hostility even she receives when being herself and yes, maybe, that is occasionally being a little more straightforward than the typical Irish person would be, is sadly hilarious to see. Of course typical Irish pussy-assed bitches will go home and complain to their friends about the bad service they received rather than confront someone in a restaurant, public service office etc.
            No wonder we can’t access abortion, childcare or any services concomitant with that of a modern progressive country here. We’d rather be ignorant and wallow in our peasant, island mentality than progress, and when we have some commenters like Medium C we can see how we can excel at this ostrichism.

          3. Anne

            What kind of hostility Whoareya?

            I bump into* an Iraqi guy out and abouts sometimes.
            He’s kinda pestering me for a date. As happens on occasion. :)
            I was yapping to him recently outside a pub in town, about events back in the homeland.

            My friends were yapping to a few Irish guys, next to me and one of them, a rather big lad kept asking me – I’d say about 4 times – ‘is he bothering you’.
            I don’t think that would happen if I was talking to a white guy.

            I said no each time, but he kept asking.
            Eventually I told him to flupp off. (not the Iraqi pestering me for a date, the Irish guy).
            My friend also told me I attract the freaks.
            Iraqi = freak. :)
            I definitely think there is more than a mild undercurrent of racism going on in this country.

            *Bump into is not a euphemism for anything. :)

        2. Sidewinder

          @Jock – there are plenty of Irish mothers too, yet far fewer reported cases of Irish women dying from neglect.

          Med C addresses the issue quite well I think, certainly better than I, – it’s a mild undercurrent of racism that causes such neglect that can so quickly turn minor cases into major ones. No-one is suggesting it was intentional neglect because of vicious “they took our jobs” type racists.

          Savita and Dhara’s partners both expressed serious concern over their wives’ conditions but these concerns were not taken seriously by staff at the hospital. As someone who works in the healthcare system I witness migrants being treated differently on a regular basis. Their concerns are dismissed and their complaints ignored because it is assumed that they are over reacting and “don’t know how things work here”.

          This is neglect plain and simple and in maternity care things can turn very serious very quickly so it is important concerned aren’t ignored. I think it extremely likely that cultural misunderstanding and what one might term “mild racism” had an important role in the deaths of four migrant women in maternity care in Ireland.

    3. Ms Piggy

      Actually it does have a very strong ethnic/immigrant aspect to it, if you’d accept that language instead. The ‘right to travel’ is of course a right hedged about by many practical difficulties for poor women, very young women and rural women (for whom the travelling is either too expensive, more physically arduous or harder to keep secret). So what’s wrong with it as an ‘Irish solution to an Irish problem’ is mainly class based. But that intersects with ethnicity/immigrant status in two ways. Firstly, non-EU citizens, especially from non-Western countries, may find that their legal rights to travel in and out of the state are hugely complicated by comparison to the freedom of movement most of us are used to. Secondly, as a demographic group, immigrant women – especially those from poorer home countries – are statistically more likely themselves to be poorer, and therefore may experience both financial and visa difficulties in travelling to England. Also, as immigrants they may well have fewer informal support networks – such as friends who might club together to find the money and come up with a ‘cover story’ for the trip – than Irish women living in or near their home communities. So without it being necessarily deliberate racisim of the most obvious kind, it is definitely a situation which disproportionately disadvantages women from non-white immigrant groups, sometimes massively and insuperably so.

  2. Dublin, Ohio

    Was at this last night. To be honest she did damage. Especially with the man hating rant. It’s people in the middle ground that we need on side. I felt her speech could alienate these people. Everyone is of course entitled to their say but I almost had to walk away. She was basically fighting misogyny with misandry. A bit of a kick in the balls to all the men there supporting women’s rights.

      1. Spartacus

        Dublin, Ohio is recounting a first person experience having been present at the speech, and you call bullshit? Really?

      2. Sidewinder

        And this whole “best not express ourselves fully because we might alienate the menz” crap is so much more detrimental. Any men who change their mind based on that alone were never properly pro-choice. It’s just another kind of misogyny – telling women to be deferent and calm and quiet and to be sensitive to men’s feelings when dealing with an issue that affects women.

        Stop wasting your time focussing in how the movement treats you and focus on the movement which is, in turn, focussed on how Ireland treats women (which is a hell of a lot worse than how feminism treats men).

        1. Spartacus

          The reality is that *if* a fresh referendum is called, you need to bring more than 50% of the voters with you. Alienating undecideds is not going to improve that figure.

        2. Dublin, Ohio

          Hi Sidewinder. I am part of this movement and her speech did not alienate me and I have no issue on how the movement treats men. And I do not see where I said I had changed my mind. I’m not asking her to be deferent to men. I don’t see where I said that either. And I do not think feminism treats men badly. To be honest quite a few women were equally offended.

      3. Dublin, Ohio

        I don’t need to re watch it. I’m telling you I was there. And I’m am telling you how it made me feel. Apologies if my opinion on this offends you. As I said she is entitled to her say. But what she said might turn people off from attending other protests. This was evident last night among quite a few people.

        1. Sidewinder

          I don’t disagree with you. The truth hurts but I absolutely do not think she did damage. People need to hear this more, not less, before accepting that it is a reality.

          1. Dublin, Ohio

            Sidewinder you are entirely entitled to your view point I have absolutely no problem with that. I was just giving my assessment of the situation as I saw it. I may be right I may be wrong but many people in my vicinity were turned off by the message. I was just stating an opinion. I am sure we have the same basic beliefs at the end of the day. Difference of opinion and debate is healthy. Reducing the argument to calling people’s opinion bullsh*t is unhealthy.

          2. Sidewinder

            And reducing an entire speech filled complex emotions and opinions on the nuances of race and gender to “fighting misogyny with misandry” isn’t?

        2. Sidewinder

          Also I don’t know why people are repeatedly mentioning the fact that you were there. So was I, what difference does it make to the point?

          1. Dublin, Ohio

            OK OK. I’ll put my hands up perhaps I was wrong to reduce the speech to “fighting misogyny with misandry”. My point and perhaps I should have been clearer is that fence sitters might have seen it that way rightly or wrongly. And if you truly were only calling bullshit on that specific point fair enough. I agree that someone who bases their vote on whether or not they were offended is silly in the extreme. But unfortunately there are a lot of silly people out there that do vote.

          2. Sidewinder

            Agreed but I don’t think we should disguise our feelings or dilute our tone for political reasons. It’s insulting to the women who have suffered under these laws. I do agree it may adversely affect fence sitters in their attitude toward the movement and actually getting involved in it but I think it’s unlikely to sway anyone’s actual vote in a referendum.

          3. Dublin, Ohio

            Sidewinder. I don’t think we should “have to” dilute our tone either. Agreed. But unfortunately if we want get the constitution changed we may have to. I don’t share your confidence that things like this don’t sway peoples vote (men’s egos are fragile things :-) ). Granted being too meek on the issue will also have a negative effect so a balance is required. I guess we just disagree on where this balance needs to be struck which is totally fine with me. Anyway I think our debate has been constructive. Ireland is growing up and moving forward and we need to drag as many people as possible along with us.

        3. j9

          Hi – I was there too and I was offended initially …. But the speech is definitely worth a re-watch. I totally agree with what she is saying … What I found interesting when I examined my initial reaction was that what I had a problem with was not what she is saying but how she said it. It was her rage – so really what I was uncomfortable with was her expressing her anger. It really made me think about how I reacted to a woman expressing anger which says a lot about me, sadly. It’s an interesting discussion and we need to examine ourselves and why we react a certain way to certain things … I
          Think – If a man expresses anger I don’t think I would have felt so uncomfortable. So I suppose what I am trying to say is, I am glad a watched it again …

          1. Dublin, Ohio

            j9 You know what. That’s is a very fair point it does say a lot. I guess an analogy could be drawn with Rory O’Neill’s speech when he said (im paraphrasing) “Growing up in this country, how could you not be a little homophobic” Equally , Growing up in this country how could you not be a little bit sexist. So I take your point .A lot of us have been brainwashed to a greater or lesser extent whether we like to admit it or not. I’ve never really thought about it but I would say if someone had asked me what my view on abortion was as a child I would have said I’m totally against it. This view being formed as a result of catholic schooling. Luckily common sense prevailed into my adult life.
            However unfortunately not everyone thinks like this and not everyone questions themselves. If some like myself or yourself who have strong pro-choice views can be taken aback or feel wronged initially. Think what the the undecided might think, not that we should necessarily pander to them but ultimately we need this amendment repealed. It is a difficult path to negotiate.

    1. SG

      I agree. I was proud of the men that were there last night and she induced them to a collective ball shrivelling moment. This is a woman’s issue, but it affects everyone.

      1. Sidewinder

        Sorry I still don’t see a problem here. If men who claim to support women have a problem with strong women expressing their feelings they need to do a bit of self reflection.

    2. Don Pidgeoni

      Clearly, they can’t include everything in the video but I would be interested to know how she was misandrist?

    3. Bonzor

      Yup. I was there and felt the same. I knew what point she was trying to make, but I didn’t see the rationale in alienating half the crowd. One guy directly in front of me turned, said “That’s enough of that”, and walked off. And he’s someone who is clearly pro-choice and made the effort to turn out. Imagine how waverers will feel if that’s what they have to listen to.

      1. Niamh

        Pro-choice until he hears something he doesn’t like; being told to ‘know his place’ in a women’s movement trying to make inroads in a patriarchal culture, that is. I was there and yes, it was uncomfortable, and yes, she may have chosen a bad moment – but she was not ultimately wrong.

        To suggest that the man who was there, and who walked away, was somehow a ‘good guy’ the movement is lucky to have, but who they have no lost, is paternalist. A whole lot of this sh*t about abortion is paternalist. I appreciate that men who tell me they care about women and support abortion are right to do so, but for me, this relates to my body – my body which has been assaulted in public, subject to unwanted sexual attention, and subject to violent medical examinations too, as it happens, because my culture doesn’t see my body as valuable; it sees it as a ‘vessel’, a sex object, etc. This is very, very serious and very pronounced as a cultural norm in Ireland.

        Men simply don’t have a clue what that is like and will never experience their body in that way. Being paternalistic, walking away when somebody says something you don’t like – women don’t have that choice. We are tired of asking nicely, of telling ‘sad’ abortion stories that depict us as nice girls who simply needed an abortion this time, of mourning mothers of children with disabilities, etc.: this bullsh*t puts the question of whether or not abortion should be legislated into the hands of people it will never effect.

        Personally I don’t think it should go to referendum, as it is not the business of 50% of the population. It is not a democratic issue. It should be legislated for without a referendum (I know that’s not possible according to our laws, but morally speaking) because it effects a minority who should not have to ask the ‘nice guy’ who walked away from the protest whether or not they can have reproductive autonomy.

        As for the practical application – well, anyone who would vote ‘no’ on abortion because a single feminist told them to ‘know their place’ is a self-serving brat who thinks women should be nice to him, and I am afraid that there is really no way around it. We’ve been nice as pie for decades and it’s got us nowhere. The rage we feel is very, very real, and emerges from a situation this man who decided ‘that’s enough’ at a protest can’t possibly understand – but SHOULD make an attempt to listen to. It is not the responsibility of women to make men aware of what we suffer and it is not our job to convince them we deserve bodily autonomy. In an ideal world, we would simply take it.

    4. EK

      Yeah I’m sorry but her opening remarks, addressed to all the men that were there, were very aggressive and antagonistically framed, and did more damage than good. I’m all for passionate speaking, and people certainly have a right to be angry but to launch into a confusing and irate tirade against men who are there to support women was badly judged. Someone on twitter made an appreciative comment about how she was justifiably “making people feel uncomfortable with the truth about abortion” but I think that person completely misread the crowd – I know I certainly felt uncomfortable, but it was because I wasn’t sure exactly where she was going with it all, nor why she felt the need to attack the men in the crowd who are clearly pro-choice and supportive of women’s rights. As a women who has had an abortion, standing there with my male partner who went through that process with me, I felt extremely dubious about her motives for screaming at the men in the crowd to “KNOW YOUR PLACE!”. Somehow she managed to demand that men should both support women’s rights but not presume to have a right to an opinion on them; that they should facilitate and try to understand women’s points of view but never dare to speak out or express their opinion on it; or as one person on the facebook event page said later on “[men should stand] behind us backing us up, not beside us, overshadowing our platform” (!), which seems bizarre as only moments before we had heard from a gentleman from Doctors for Choice who made some great supportive remarks. How exactly are men supposed to be supportive but shut up at the same time?! To be perfectly honest she was a little incoherent, the point was badly made and confusing, and led to a decidedly negative change of feeling amongst the crowd. Which was unfortunate as she made some very valid and well made points later on, which may have ended up lost on a lot of people she alienated.

      1. Don Pidgeoni

        I’m not sure I agree with those who thinks women’s rights issues should only be commented on by women (though for some things, like abortion, women do have more of a vested interest so maybe its not completely unfounded) but I can see why some women do feel this way. But, its only an opinion. #notallfeminists right?

      2. Mark Dennehy

        If your vote in a referendum is decided upon by how hurt your pride or how unstroked your ego is, maybe you shouldn’t bother pretending that you’re voting on principle? She said something that you didn’t much like. So what? Does that change the issue in some material way?

    5. aubrey

      I wasn’t there, unfortunately. but if that was the case, it could damage the campaign. The No-Choice brigade would only be too delighted to paint the pro-choice side as radical feminazis.

      1. Niamh

        Radical feminists feel that society needs to be structurally changed before woman can truly be considered equal, and the damage done by gender norms to both men and women can begin to be healed. They don’t believe in asking nicely for this change, because to do so is to pander to the current dispensation, which is patriarchal. It’s not without problems but by lazily sticking ‘nazi’ onto the end of the word, you conflate a genuine and intelligent interest in society as a broader, structural entity, with fascism, in order to close down legitimate debate.

  3. Ahjayzis

    I don’t know about racism, but the case does marry the absolutely disgraceful way we treat asylum seekers and the shameful status of women in our constitution. Two of our great national shames, direct provision and the 8th amendment collide.

  4. CousinJack

    It is fair to say that this is partly a racist issue, as it is not plausible that a european would be stateless in Ireland, only non-europeans who have arrived in Ireland and are unable to travel to UK or elsewhere are fully effected by the Irish States abortion laws.
    THe law is an Irish solution to and Irish problem, but if you’re not Irish (or European) you’re in rrouble if you have been raped and are pregnant

    1. Am I still on This Island

      And if those EU citizens didn’t have the financial means to travel, for the termination?

  5. Nially

    Really don’t get the various commenters above being like “Well sure, this disproportionately affects immigrants, but like, does that really make it racist?” Answer: Yes. Yes it does. Policies with different impacts based on race are racist. End of.

    On the section of her speech about men, like, I get that it’s uncomfortable to hear, but it’s a valid point. We can be outraged and horrified and ashamed of our country, but it’s women who are actually put at risk by our stance on abortion, and it’s women who bear the brunt of the consequences, so on issues like this, we often need to stand aside and let women do all the talking.

    And like, I’m sorry if that made your bro-‘feminist’ friends’ balls shrivel, but if they’re that uncomfortable being told that they need to sit down and shut up sometimes to make way for women, they’re maybe not quite as feminist as they’d like to think.

    1. Spartacus

      If this woman had white skin, the tone of this thread would be completely different if indeed the item had made it to YouTube in the first place. That is racist.

    2. Am I still on This Island

      Nially, it’s not racist, it’s discrimination based on wealth. Regardless of your skin colour you can afford to travel. Some people in the direct provision system would be denied access, but that is not relevant to some of the examples given here.

      1. Medium Sized C

        Last night I learned that it was not unheard for workers to travel to the UK with girls who are in direct provision, to get the girl an abortion. Albeit with permission from the DOJ.

        I was a bit taken aback.
        It reminded me that in general I have no feckin clue what is going on and the news doesn’t help that.

          1. Medium Sized C

            I didn’t hear this at the protest, couldn’t make it.

            I learned this from somebody who works in social services.
            Apparently someone I know has played the accompanying role.
            Its all a bit shocking really.

        1. Am I still on This Island

          Yes Mark they can be both, but it can also be a case of nothing to do with race and all about financial means. So if a person of ethnicity xy or z wants an abortion & has the finding they can get one. If they don’t have the funding their ethnicity is Irrelevant

          1. Don Pidgeoni

            @AMISOTI – thats not what your point was. Your point of income and ethnicity not being related was the point and minorities tend to be poorer. Asylum seekers have twice as much of nothing.

            And maybe they wouldn’t receive the same care. Say Finglas has a medical card and Nigeria is an asylum seeker who is not eligible (not sure if this is how it works, but run with me). It wouldn’t be overtly racist but race/ethnicity certainly is in there which is what people are pointing out.

          2. Am I still on This Island

            The example was all things being equal, race was not the driving force behind the 8th, it discriminates equally if your financial position stops you travelling regardless of the colour of your skin.

          3. Nially

            “The example was all things being equal, race was not the driving force behind the 8th…”

            But all things aren’t equal, so while you’re correct that any woman with a lack of funds is affected by the 8th, the fact that women from racial minorities are disproportionately likely to find themselves in that position is what makes this a racial issue.

            On top of that, the fact that migrant women are often restricted in their capacity to travel even with funds (e.g. if they’re in direct provision centres) makes the 8th impact more on women from racial minorities, so again, racial issue.

            It also seems plausible that women from outside Ireland have more issues accessing their rights and getting proper treatment in this area, as they do in many others. Certainly the current case raises questions about how well this woman’s rights were communicated to her, and how carefully she was informed about what was happening to her. In Savita’s case, the flippant “This is a Catholic country” denial wouldn’t have been said to a white woman. So there’s quite likely to be racially-based undertones that compound the impact of the 8th on woman from racial minorities, even beyond the immediate practical stuff.

          4. Don Pidgeoni

            “On top of that, the fact that migrant women are often restricted in their capacity to travel even with funds (e.g. if they’re in direct provision centres) makes the 8th impact more on women from racial minorities, so again, racial issue.”

            Which, when making good policy, rather than makey-uppy let send it all to England policy, should be taken into account

  6. Bambi

    I can’t understand why a man attending a vigil concerning the reproductive rights of women would be offended by being asked to know his place and let women have their say?
    If men want to dictate the reproductive choices of women, be it pro-choice or pro-birth, then we don’t want them at our protests or vigils.
    Mens’ egos are the most fragile things in the world.
    And regarding race – yes race has absolutely ~everything~ to do with this. Race is an incredibly important part of feminism. I can’t imagine how you could miss this in the recent cases.

    1. Jane

      I think it’s because if men aren’t front and centre, they genuinely don’t want to know. And worse still, if someone actually tells them that their job is to support rather than lead – that they can’t cope with at all.

      1. Rompsky

        Ok cool, I’ll stay at home then. Maybe during a referendum too because I wouldn’t want to interfere…

        1. Sidewinder

          Like do you realise you’ve basically just said “Do what the men tell you or we won’t give your rights”? Textbook misogyny.

          1. Rompsky

            There’s a pretty big gulf between ‘letting men dictate our rights’ and letting men support people. My response was to that saying that ‘men’ can’t cope in a supportive role which is frankly ridiculous.

            I’m pro choice but coming out all guns blazing against all men is a bit much

          1. Mark Dennehy

            Actually, you should get a medal for being supportive.

            It’s “doing the right thing” that you’re supposed to do for its own sake without the medal-seeking.

    2. aubrey

      Wow, you are angry at men. Maybe justifiably so, but as a man it still hurts to hear it. Hurts feelings, creates feelings of worthlessness. I hope that’s not what you intended.

  7. Spartacus

    The signal to noise up there ^^^ is getting to the point where no messages are getting through at all.

    Bambi, question for you. If the magic fairy granted you a referendum in the morning on the subject of repealing the 8th amendment, what do you think the male 50% of the electorate should do?

    1. Don Pidgeoni

      Bambi, who i’m sure will again explain herself, has given her opinion on how she sees this as a women’s issue and that men should support but not take over the debate. She is not saying don’t vote. This is not really that hard to comprehend, whether or not you agree with it. Her views are being wilfully misrepresented.

      1. Spartacus

        Well, since we don’t want to compound that situation, let’s have Bambi answer for herself, hmm??

        1. Sidewinder

          The question is ridiculous and could only be posed as a challenge to an opinion that has not been expressed, merely misinterpreted by you because you persist in being defensive instead of attentive.

          1. Sidewinder

            Nonsense. It’s a hypothetical question intended to stifle the debate and distract from her point in order to have yourself validated.

          2. Spartacus

            You know what my intentions were? You reduce this debate to a parody of a pantomime audience?

    2. Bambi

      I think the portion of the 50% who fully understand why they’re voting and what they’re voting for should go and vote. It’s not looking hopeful from this thread though to be honest.

      1. Spartacus

        OK, fair enough. You clearly accept that men *do* have a voice in this, then. Can you accept that even if there are men who vehemently disagree with you have an equal say in the outcome of any referendum? Can you accept that there are men who would otherwise be persuaded to vote with you (or even predisposed to do so) who will either vote against you, or abstain if they are met with militant feminism?

        1. Mark Dennehy

          In other words, us men won’t vote according to morals or ethics in the voting booth, but only to ego stroking outside the booth. So be nice or we’ll vote against you.

          And okay, there’s not as many men in the electorate as there are women by a margin of 30,000 or so, but still…

          1. Bambi

            Spartacus you’re obviously finding difficulty to see the point here.
            The fact that you think I’m a ‘militant feminist’ is brilliant.
            So thanks for the lol.
            If I’ve utterly confused you with my crazy woman speak – see Mark’s comments, he gets it and just read them over and over again until you get it too.

          2. Spartacus

            I don’t think *you* get it, Bambi. If you want to be all shouty at men, knock yourself out, I could care less. If you want to win the (sadly hypothetical) referendum, you need to address the electorate as equals. You are presently in the minority camp, I believe.

          3. Sidewinder

            And therein lies your problem. You think people saying that different people have different roles in a debate is the same as saying they’re unequal, it’s not.

          1. Mark Dennehy

            And I’d like if very much if you’d stop saying those words. But you know what they say, wish in one hand, sh*t in the other, see which fills up first…

          2. Spartacus

            I think it’s fairly clear from your behaviour that you’ve run out of ideas for debate, Mark.

        1. Grimes

          Spartacus, I wold really hope that men aren’t swayed by Bambi’s views. I don’t disgree with either of you but I think there needs to be a moderate middle to actually get the referendum we want. The other side will only use the more militant members of the pro-choice movement to villianise us. I would hope that IF and WHEN men go to the polls, they’d be thinking the same as women – do I want a choice on whether myself and my partner become parents

          1. Mark Dennehy

            Er, no. That’s not what men should be thinking, because that’s not a choice you’re talking about, it’s a joint decision. And frankly, our choices end after coitus. That’s just how it is. If events will progress regardless of whether you get hit by a bus or not, then you really need a pretty solid argument if you want veto rights over them, because reality isn’t giving it to you.

            What we’re meant to be thinking is “if my daughter wanted an abortion, do I think she should be legally required to consult some random stranger or panel of strangers whom I’ve never heard of, and should they have the legal authority to say no and effectively imprison her so she can’t have one?”

          2. Grimes

            Well Mark, of course, you are entirely correct. I mean obviously in ideal world it would be a joint decision, but ultimately it is up to us women what we want. I was just trying the soft approach where the menz feel included.

    3. ABM

      Thanks to abortion and eugenics houses (masquerading as “fertility clinics”) there are now 107 Irish boys for every 100 Irish girls.

      1. Mark Dennehy

        Those figures are now six years old.
        And even in 2008, they said that the only reason we didn’t have a 1:1 male/female ratio for the _electorate_ was that men had a lower life expectancy than women, so while it’s 1:1 from 15 to 64, it drops off to 0.8:1 by 80.

        ABM stands for Anything But Math, eh?

        1. ABM

          I understand that women live longer than men.

          I was quoting the figures for “boys” and “girls” (those under 15 specifically). As boys move into their late teens they are more likely to get killed and kill themselves). The ratio for girls/boys from 0 to 19 years of age is 100/104.4.

          http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/2012/popmig_2012.pdf

          Anyway, the way newborns are entering the world is a very worrying trend. We’re not as bad as India yet. A lot done, more to do as they say.

          1. Mark Dennehy

            > As boys move into their late teens they are more likely to get killed and kill themselves

            Yes, that’s the tragic reality of life in da hood.
            ABM. Straight outta Leixlip.

            And yes, I’m very worried about the way newborns are entering the world. Fecking migrant workers, coming in here without clothing or education or a job or skills, draining our resources and keeping us up all night with their incessant partying, utterly obsessed with breasts and with no sense of decorum or responsibility. Someone need to put a stop to it. We need to build a fence! Won’t someone think of the local residents?!

    4. Lorcan Nagle

      And at this point, the discussion has only served to prove the point being made in the initial video. The debate should not be about men or their feelings, but rather stopping women from suffering needlessly.

  8. Grimes

    That girl from the north’s speech was heartbreaking, made me cry in the middle of O’Connell street

  9. rotide

    This thread should be put in the broadsheet hall of fame for the utter toe curling nonsense being spewed.

      1. rotide

        You don’t need a guide book for that Bambi. You’re doing more than well enough on your own.

        1. Sidewinder

          I count maybe three men on this thread who are capable of listening to what women on here are saying.

  10. aubrey

    Trying to reason with many of these women is actually crazy-making. Go f**k yourselves, literally.

  11. Goosey Lucy

    That speech saying that men shouldn’t have a say made me absolutely fume!!
    But then I remembered that there are highly irrational people on both sides of the divide.
    I do wonder sometimes whether we are going backwards in gender relations. I imagined how I would feel as a man at that rally. Pretty s**t, I’d imagine.
    Yet again, voices of middle ground get washed over by bible bashers / men bashers.
    In cases of rape or foetal abnormality , personally I consider it abhorrent to force a woman to continue pregnancy.
    But I certainly don’t want to see women using abortion as birth control- this country has plenty of contraceptive options.
    This “debate” certainly brings to light the disturbingly high level of un diagnosed mental illness in our society…

      1. I, Diddley

        Please, share with us all the times an angry man has shouted at you that he loves and respects you. Tell us how warm and cuddly it made you feel. And did it help you to, like, really know your place

    1. lorcan nagle

      I’m a man who was at the rally, and I don’t feel shit at all. I totally get what she was trying to say, i don’t agree 100% with how she said it, but ultimately she’s right. This is fundamentlly a women’s issue and a women’s movement, which men are an important part of, but not the most important part.

      1. Pablo

        How can men be an “important part” of the debate when they’re effectively being instructed to simply do as they’re told by women? Like many other issues, the abortion debate is being hijacked by aggressive feminists for their own ends – helped, whether unwittingly or not, by useful idiots such as Nially, Mark Dennehy and Sidewinder.

  12. Susan

    Fair point about racism – if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck – and I particularly commend her for not omitting Savita Halappanavar’s last name out of laziness, which so many Irish are all too eager to do. As if killing her by negligence was not enough, let’s deny her some more of her humanity.

    But it appears that the feminism she is touting is radical and resentful. And the denial of a woman’s bodily sovereignty is a serious issue, too serious for someone to swear repeatedly in public and rant like that. The “know your place” comment did really jar. The whole first part of the speech was amateurish and inappropriate, not to mention divisive.

  13. Steve

    My problem is that a lot of people spoke in that clip and the Broadsheet headline was about a black woman calling racism. So who’s the racist here Bodger?

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