116 thoughts on “Nothing But Contempt

  1. Jonotti

    Entirely reasonable editorial that gives consideration to the main issues.
    Care to actually debate any of the points bodger rather than your usual cowardly sneer of “there you go” or “yikes”?

        1. Soundings

          Or Sam Smyth or Eamon Dunphy. If thou sayest anything which offends Dinny, gouge it out and cast it from thee – “independent” my ar*e and here it is shilling in support of a related company, Siteserv.

          1. Buzz

            Such hypocrites. As if Dinny gave two shits about the rule of law when he was ‘cosying up to’ Lowry.

      1. Sinabhfuil

        It’s the rich wot gets the pleasure, it’s the poor wot gets the blame, you see, Jonotti. Like Burke & Hare. Quite correct that they should be called to account for murdering people to sell their cadavers to medical professors and students to dissect – but no one ever called those professional post mortem practitioners to account for buying those said cadavers, and in effect commissioning the murders.
        Every one a respected professional till the day he died and was safely interred.

    1. Mark Dennehy

      Er, hold on. It’s not *perfectly* reasonable. I mean, “the spectre of civil disobedience”? Civil disobedience is a serious thing, yes, but “spectre”? We don’t talk about the “spectre of Martin Luther King” or the “spectre of Ghandi”. The spectre of violence, yes, all the time, but violence and civil disobedience are somewhat poles apart by definition.

      Someone’s lost sight of what “reasonable” means here methinks.

      1. Nigel

        I’m gonna defend the indefensible a bit and give that quote from the editorial a charitable reading here: to a lot of people in this country, civil disobedience IS a ‘spectre’ and they are being driven away from the anti-water charge and even anti-austerity movements because of it. Even relatively mild forms of it, such as the occupy movement, met with nothing but contempt. If I were to guess, people link more radical forms of civil disobedience to violence rather more than you credit, largely because of the muddling of civil rights, hard left politics and IRA violence in the North, which is the real spectre that sends people back to the usual civil war parties every time. Corruption and incompetence represent a kind of stability. Radical change is associated with the risk of widespread civil breakdown. We’re still driven by fear, all the more so after the financial crash. We will toe the line rather than risk going the way of Greece. Everyone knows exhortations for change via the ballot box are arguments for the status quo, and yet feelings of frustration and disenfranchisement are piling up and breaking out in rather stupid and pointless ways, which helps confirm the invalidity immaturity of civil disobedience to even the most vocal complainers, rendering their complaints moot as they either vote for an established and co-opted party or for a dubious or at best ineffectual independent. More people would have sucked up the austerity if there had been real political reform.

        (Say what you will about Irish Water, but I’ve heard them on the radio talking about twenty-year programs of repairs and upgrades. I don’t know if they’ll carry them out, but THOSE ARE THE CORRECT TIME FRAMES. When I hear politicians talking about twenty or thirty year reform programs for health care, infrastructure, housing, local government, civil service, public transport etcetera et-bloody-cetera, then I’ll begin to think there’s a chance that somebody somewhere is thinking about theses things properly.)

        1. Mark Dennehy

          Again though, you’re conflating violence and civil disobedience. There’s a reason it’s called civil disobedience and not, say for example, “rioting”. Linking Ghandi to masked thugs shooting teenagers in the kneecaps in dark alleys in Belfast by saying that their descriptive terms are interchangable is putting demands on the English language that it can’t be reasonably asked to bear.

          1. Nigel

            No, my point is that we the Irish people tend to make that conflation, or rather a strong association. It isn’t a question of language, it’s a question of culture and history. In the US, civil rights mean Martin Luther King versus the KKK. Here, it means Bloody Sunday and IRA bombing campaigns. It’s not fair, but there you go.

          2. Joe the Lion

            What you’re saying in essence Nigel if I am correct is that the language, meaning and symbolism of protest here had been largely co-opted by subversive elements and thus tainted in the public mind at large?

          3. Nigel

            What hasn’t been co-opted has been devalued or declared guilty by association. When middle-class protestors fill the streets, their demands are treated as legitimate and their complaints are met with shows of sincerity. When the poor, the young, or people with ‘fringe’ causes fill the streets, their demands are selfish, and their complaints are whining. When most of the middle class crowds have gone home, everyone who’s left can be consigned to the latter three categories, and the Irish middle classes do not want to be associated with any of them.

          4. Don Pidgeoni

            +1 you only need to read some of the comments on here to see how class is considered pretty quickly by some people

  2. JimmytheHead

    Thats fair enough, considering the contract to install meters was awarded to a company that didnt exist until after the tender, which never came out publicly, that employs unqualified untrained people to install meters that will expire before they can be used on houses that dont want them and were never allowed to vote on it.

    Yay democracy! Wheres my cheque book?

    1. DoM

      If only we could all vote for who we want to represent us, and let the majority make decisions on things like water meters. That would be real democracy!

      1. JimmytheHead

        Careful now, that sounds like youre trying to organize people together to make a sensible decision on how to run our country a.k.a. civil disobedience a.k.a. jail time for DoM

      2. Mark Dennehy

        Er, technically that would be representative democracy. Direct democracy (as in Switzerland, not Direct Democracy Ireland thanks) is equally a “real” democracy.
        Just sayin’…

  3. Soundings

    Grand, so remember this:

    http://www.moriarty-tribunal.ie/asp/index.asp?ObjectID=636&Mode=0&RecordID=399

    Published on March 22nd 2011 – nearly four years ago.

    What happened? Gardai spent nearly two years investigating, and never once asked for additional resources to help their investigation, and a file was sent to the DPP more than a year ago.

    Practically every adult in the country knows what the Tribunal concluded, despite the protestations from those accused of “adverse findings” and four years later…..nothing.

  4. Ture Kilcockian

    Phil Hogan and Michael Lowry met Mark Fitzgerald to discuss Dennis O’Brien’s confidential involvement in funding Fine Gael.
    Phil Hogan was minister for the environment when Siteserv were awarded the water meter contract.
    Dennis O’Brien is the controlling shareholder of Siteserv and Independent News and Media.

    1. TheDude

      And Brian Cowen gets director roles on Topaz and Beacon Hospital post political career death. Why did that happen I wonder?

  5. scottser

    the ‘spectre of civil disobedience’ is my favourite.
    *puts sheet over head, tries to scare off nearest GMC worker*

  6. munkifisht

    I would have said that in a free, democratic, liberal western state, the democratic process was the bedrock of society, but what the hell do I know. Roll on the Irish Stasi.

    1. Rob_G

      Well, water metering was part of FG’s manifesto, and they are the largest party in the Dáil, so not sure what you are wittering on about with your ‘Irish Stasi’ nonsense.

      1. munkifisht

        Are you incapable of reading? The article is titled “Rule of Law Must be The Bedrock of Society”. Back to your cave troglodyte, I don’t have any more time for you.

    2. Cian

      > I would have said that in a free, democratic, liberal western state, the democratic process was the bedrock of society…
      But the democratic process is just to elect politicians. The politicians then make/amend Laws. So aren’t the Laws the bedrock upon which our society rests?

    1. scottser

      that explains a lot jocks. you work for gmc, yeah? the reason why you post so much drivel on here is cos you’re stuck in your van all day..

      1. Jonotti

        His post does not need a reply from me. I asked him to actually argue against the points made in the editorial. Why not come out and be honest and put your views in the open like the indo and I have.

      2. Gee-gees

        Typical Banotti/Jock behaviour to call someone out and then bottle it. He won’t reply because Bodger will show him up.

    2. DD

      Ha ha Jonotti, are you going to organise a pro water tax march with your little facebook page?

      Pathetic.

      Have paid already, not paying again.

  7. Blublu

    I dare someone to come up with an argument against this that doesn’t compare the legal treatment of these people to the legal treatment of people (bankers DOB most likely) in completely difference scenarios. Yes it’s right to criticise this but the fact remains that the people in question here were dealt with by the letter of the law.

    1. Jonotti

      Already here we’ve has Gemma ODoherty, Denis O’Brien, the mortiarty Tribunal and Michael lowry.
      How can people discuss Irish Water and not mention the 1995 divorce referendum.?

        1. scottser

          paul potts? i mean, ‘britain’s got talent’ is criminal at the best of times, but i never knew he got jailed for it..

      1. Soundings

        Or the contempt shown by the Independent group when it published the Anglo tapes. Didn’t the DPP take action against the newspapers and the editors/managing editor? Is that still ongoing?

    2. Dave

      The people jailed were jailed for breaking a court injunction that prohibits anyone from coming within 20 meters of any place where meters are being installed. That effectively bans protest against metering. If you really believe people have a right to protest then the existence of that injunction alone should be enough to justify the protests.

      As for the everything else involving ‘one law for them and another for us little people’ that really just shows where rulings like this come from.

      1. Shockabilly

        I don’t see why a 20 metre exclusion zone would equate to a ban on protesting… never been near one of these installation protests but could they not stand 20 plus metres away and let rip with from there…

      2. JimmytheHead

        Most of the meters are so close to houses that if you are home while they work, technically you are in breach of an injunction!

        Hilarious stuff.

        Oh wait sorry, meant to say “absolute c****”

        1. Blublu

          Good point. It’s clear that the people in question were inside their home and in now way intimidating/ disturbing workers, who by the way have rights of their own. My point still stands, no logical argument against this…

        2. AlisonT

          You clearly haven’t read the injunction. These protestors just want income tax payers to keep funding their water as they haven’t had to make any sacrifices for their fellow citizens yet. They reject water charges as they wont be able to avoid them and may have to think of the good of society before they waste water. Lots of rural people have been paying for treated water for years and no one seemed to care. Its time they showed some solidarity with those who fund this economy.

          1. Nigel

            To illustrate my comment below – Protestors = poor people who are trying to get away with something for nothing. Some people would rather a thousand cute civil service middle-managers retire on ridiculously lucrative pensions and then get re-hired on ridiculously lucrative contracts for redundant roles than run the risk of a single poor person getting away with something for nothing.

          1. Blublu

            It’s nice to see a moron like yourself doesn’t have their freedom of speech in anyway inhibited here. Makes you wish this applied to the whole world.

            If you’re in any way interested, though it is no way related to my argument, I’m completely behind protests against the way water charges are being implemented. We already pay for water through taxes so I’m not against this per se, but I am sceptical as to whether Irish Water will handle these charges any more efficiently or fairly, though in a perfect society they would.

      3. Nigel

        Well, no. ‘Peaceful’ protests that do no directly interfere with the installations can continue. Of course, they can be safely ignored and dismissed also. Protests which interfere with installations (not necessarily violent as such, but if they’re not ‘peaceful’ they must be ‘violent’) can occur, but will almost certainly result in arrests and jail time and represent an escalation. Without public sympathy this will result in the further marginalisation of the most ardent water protestors. Irish people hate the water charges, or the manner in which they’ve been implemented, but they also really do not approve of that sort of behaviour. As the odd comment here shows, they associate it with yobbish lower-class dole scrounger freeloaders and opportunistic criminals and hairy radical full-time protestors. Anything associated with non-meek poverty is death with the Irish middle-classes. Given how badly a lot of the protests and protestors come across, I’d say they’re doomed, but it says something about how angry and disillusioned the populace is that they even have the support they do.

        1. Sinabhfuil

          And there’s also that most Irish people don’t like anything that seems like bullying, whether it’s kicking down or, as in the case of shouting, jostling, water-hurling protestors, kicking up.
          Jailing seems crazy. But myself, I think something’s gone badly skew-waw with the water protests.

          1. Nigel

            Yeah. It looks awful. it’s like seeing the social mask slip and glimpsing the irrational rage underneath. It scares the shite out of people and they want that mask clamped back on tighter than ever.

          2. JimmytheHead

            Remember theres alot of people who have nothing to lose any more, giving them jail time will only exacerbate the problem and as a commenter yesterday said, make martyrs of them. I say whoever wants to pay water tax can pay it themselves and leave the rest of us alone

            *waits for reply, eats popcorn*

        2. Joe the Lion

          Your comment though illuminating can be shortened to the following: we’re a class-driven shi%hole?

          1. Nigel

            Two other things occur to me.

            1. Our drinking culture is our socially acceptable outlet for this sort of behaviour. For all that we decry it, we still accept it and participate in it. A whole street full of people howling and reeling and yelling and jeering and fighting is deplorable but common. A small ring of people shouting and yelling and jeering is deplorable and must be stamped out.

            2. We are relieved when protests devolve into that sort of thing and we can safely distance ourselves from them and shrug and accept whatever the government does as inevitable because the alternative is unthinkable.

        3. scottser

          i think it’s easy to see how the process of criminalisation works here. the language changed after the joan burton episode – it went from her being ‘obstructed’ to ‘trapped’ to ‘incarcereated’ to ‘kidnapped’. terms like ‘sinister fringe’ ‘paramilitary elements’ among the protesters etc. all spun by INM to polarise the debate on IW. the tactics are even filthier cos we all know what’s being attempted. having said all that, the usefulness of popular visible protests might be over, with the exception of the huge rallies we see now and then. the real test for IW will be how many actually stump up payment – it certainly won’t be anywhere near the level of compliance IW think it will be.

      4. Joe the Lion

        I haven’t read the case but was the injunction originally handed down because violent conduct was engaged in by some in the vicinity of installers going about their lawful business?

        Injunctions like this are not handed out like confetti, in my admittedly limited knowledge.

    3. Capt. Crounch

      Are these things not connected? The article is about the “rule of law” , not solely about water charge protesters. Why is it important to maintain the rule of law for protesters but not for people who have bankrupted the country?

      1. Blublu

        The piece in absolutely no way states that the law (as a whole) is just or perfect or always applied fully . It’s purely about this one case that factually was dealt with the laws we, as a society, have in place.

  8. Soundings

    Is there nothing in any code for newspaper publishing in this country which requires the newspaper to disclose connections with any stories being commented on.

    INM-30% owned by Denis O’Brien is commenting on a story in which at its centre is Siteserv – 100% owned by Denis O’Brien. Surely any newspaper worth its salt would disclose such links, so that readers would have important contextual information in which the editorial could be considered.

  9. JoeB

    Jailing these people is like curing the symptoms of the disease as opposed to the cause. Work backwards to the cause. Why are there protesting? Water Charges. Why are there water charges? Troika told us we had to. Why are we listening to Troika?…….

    1. Mani

      I’m listening to Troika because I love their third album ‘Austerity’. You can really here the influence of Krautrock in the drumming and the syncopated vocals, especially on tracks like ‘Beat Me Down’ and ‘I Can’t Take It’. It’s a pity the lead singer, Dmitry Rubikov overdosed on Sudafed while touring this. They were never the same afterwards. Especially as, in an attempt to fool promoters, they continued to tour with his body in a perverse Weekend at Bernies homage, the truth finally coming out when Dmitry’s rotted head slipped it’s masking tape noose and fell into the front row of Paris’ L’Olympia. It’s really a case of ‘What If?’ for this band.

      1. squiggleyjoop

        You kidding me? The third album was rubbish. They only discovered their true sound on their fourth album when they holed themselves up in a studio in Greece and came up with the classic ‘Negotiate This!’ concept album.

    2. Soundings

      Troika said that any of the measures agreed in December 2010 during the bailout negotiations, could be substituted for measures which would have a similar impact on the deficit.

      This is a FG/Labour implementation. No-one else is to blame.

      Are there alternative ways of generating the €100m-odd that Irish Water will generate from billing households? Well, how about cutting the tax relief on mega pension contributions, so that everyone gets the same % relief? That would generate around €100m a year in additional tax from the highly paid, as well as adhering to the principles of equality and fairness.

  10. Corky Duke

    you are all getting your knickers in a knot……
    they broke the law end of story…..deal with this issue and not who owns what company or whos on what board of directors or whos tribual etc etc….

    1. Zuppy International

      What laws were broken by the five anti-water demonstrators? The answer is none.

      They were sent to jail for breaching an order given in a commercial court and applied for by a corporation that is itself in breach of the law (as well as many health and safety regulations). The actions of Irish Wasters are enabled by the policies of a drunken parliament controlled by a political party in hoc to a billionaire tax exile. Collectively these parties, individuals and corporations seek commercial gain and immoral profits from the peoples’ right to life. The ‘court’ by its actions seeks to facilitate this immoral profit and so will deny these protestors their lawful rights to trail by jury in favour of guilt by decree according to the commercial imperative.

      The lapdogs in the DOB and state sponsored propaganda machines have been well briefed to echo a chorus of outrage that doesn’t actually exist outside their of narrow circle of interests. As the interests of government, media and corporate combine, they conspire to undermine not only the ‘rule of law’ but also Articles 1 and 6 of the constitution which is supposed to govern them.

      What is inevitable is that the more the Blueshirts push this agenda the more they undermine their own claim to authority and contribute to their own marginalisation.

      1. Corky Duke

        They breached an order restraining them from coming within 20 metre exclusion zone surrounding the workers. Why did they do that. They were warned in Nov when they breached the order first. They didnt listen to their warning.
        You do the crime, you pay the time.

      2. Anomanomanom

        It’s very convenient for you to forgot they also threatened the judge. I think it was that idiot Derek who told the judge If any of them go to jail there will be hell on the streets. Not to mention the other layabouts who had time on their hands to block people getting home from work with the ridiculous walk to Mountjoy. Complete wasters the lot of them.

        1. Corky Duke

          +100
          agree…most of them are out just for the sake of getting out of the house. Nothign better to do. It would be nice if they put this amount of time and effort into getting a job.

          1. scottser

            it would be nice if you kept your @rsehole opinions to yourself and tried to engage with the debate in some kind of meaningful way.

      3. Shockabilly

        I’m not so sure that the blueshirts have a monopoly on marginalizing themselves – some of the hardcore protestors seem more than capable on that score.

        Blocking O’Connell street yesterday evening was an astonishing move. The FG/Lab heads must have thought it was Xmas come again.
        How could we possibly make load of people angry at the protestors whilst dampening down the numbers that turn up to the protest on Saturday….hmmm
        ** raises pinkie to corner of mouth… **

    1. Frilly Keane

      Scooter!
      The little dotie gofer that was Kermit’s nephew

      ( can someone lash up a pic for us, ta)

  11. Lilly

    Oh dearie me, is Siteserv’s Denis O’Brien writing Indo editorials now. Where was their concern with the rule of law in their thuggish dealings with Gemma O’Doherty.

  12. Truth in the News

    There is a very simple and effective way of dealing with Independent
    Newspapers and all their associated publications, Boycott them, they
    are aleady in a precarious financial position.
    The ownership of this media outlet has been used for too long as the
    mouth piece of the likes of the William Matin Murphy, Tony O’Reilly and
    now Dennis O’ Brien. in any other democracy their monoply in the print
    sector would have be to divested, they only reason that the likes O’Brien
    want to control a media group, is manuipulate and mould public opinion
    and as see now, demonise those who question him…..nor should we
    forget the famous June 1997 “Payback Time” editorial in its attempt
    to decide the outcome of an election,, the latest editorial should be
    viewed in this context, when Tony O’Reilly failed to get the FG/LAB
    to shut down TV Deflectors, in order that he would have an exclusive
    MMDS.TV Relay system….which eventually ended up with the TV
    Deflectors licenced and MMDS franchise disposed of for a Pound.
    And we never got to the bottom as to why Rennicks made a payment to
    Ray Burke.. who held the portfolio of Minister of Communications when
    MMDS franchises were awarded.
    Perhaps the Independent might do a front page editorial on their
    silence on this issue…exclusion zones seem to exist in a lot of places:

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