No Alternatives

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Luke O’Shaughnessy, from Educate Together, writes:

“There’s been a lot of media attention this week on the Admissions to School Bill 2015 and the proposal to limit the number of children of past pupils that schools can admit to 10%… but there are still large areas of country with no alternatives to church schools, and the admissions bill does absolutely nothing to address this. The fact that Irish parents consider that it is necessary to get their children baptised in the Catholic faith in order to access publicly funded schools, rather than out of personal religious conviction, is shocking!”

Draft Admissions Bill Highlights the Need for National Network of Educate Together Schools (Educate Together)

Related: School Admissions Bill: battle looms over rules on past pupils (Irish Times)

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87 thoughts on “No Alternatives

  1. Jonotti

    The Labour party promised to sort this out. Instead, they’ve directed most of their energies to forcing us to pay water charges. Never voting Labour again.

    1. newsjustin

      Minister Quinn went like a bull in a china shop suggesting that stand-alone, church-run primary schools would effectively have their ethos watered down to homeopathic levels. This derailed the entire “divestment” program in areas where there were loads of schools and scope for divestment, which relied entirely on the good-will of school communities and church leaders.

      1. nige

        that’s bullpoo.
        Quinn focused on the transfer of schools in larger towns/cities and didn’t push the issue of rural stand alone schools at all. The Forum on Patronage and Pluralism did, however, receive many submissions about how stand alone schools deal with non-catholic children. The department, in a softly-softly measure, asked the Catholic patronage body to detail the examples of best practice implemented in some schools (as the patrons kept saying that they were in fact very welcoming and accommodating).
        The resulting document was released last month, over 30 pages long and the only real suggestion in it is that catholic schools will let the non-catholics take part in their ceremonies. You can read it here: http://www.catholicschools.ie/2015/03/12/catholic-primary-schools-in-a-changing-ireland/. A couple of years have been wasted with this approach. It is time for the state to tell them to actually be accommodating and respectful or stop claiming public money.

    2. Mick Flavin

      Have you really voted Labour in the past Jon? I would have taken you for an ex-PD man.

        1. Mick Flavin

          Is this a split personality or an imposter? Which Jonotti should I shoot?
          Aaaaarrrrgggghhh!

          1. Mikeyfex

            It’s Hells-bells, Mick. He/she doesn’t have a problem with being derivative when it comes to choosing a username. It was ‘Rep’ for a while there too.

          2. Jonotti

            Somebody else is posting with my name now. Their posts are usually fairly bland.
            I like the schizophrenic confusion it adds to my character along with my previous contradictory posts.

          3. Mikeyfex

            No Helen went from Helen to Healy Rae’s Love Child to Rep to Jonotti.

            The original Rep then changed to Vote Rep #1 to avoid the confusion that the original jonotti is happy enough to embrace.

            I’m running low on wall-space, tacks, and red wool though so I hope she doesn’t change again soon.

          4. Don Pidgeoni

            Jesus, Mikey, good on you for working that out. Maybe we could get a monthly update on who’s who?

          5. Jonotti

            You’re completely wrong.

            This is jock/banotti that changed name due to broadsheet blocking posts.

            There was a previous (secret) incarnation but I consider that to be different canon.

          6. Mikeyfex

            Ya I understand where the the original jonotti (you) got his name. I’m making possibly ridiculous claims about the other person using your name at the moment.

          1. Spaghetti Hoop

            I don’t have Mikey’s acute detection skills but allow me to be the writing analyst and suggest the old Helen is now ‘good Helen’, no?

  2. patrick

    Can’t we just nationalise all of the schools? Or pass a law removing all religious instruction and iconography from schools? What is the holdup?

    1. newsjustin

      That would be unconstitutional. The constitution is there to prevent just such land-grabs by the state.

        1. Don Pidgeoni

          Or claiming the compensation for abuse that the religious folks claim they can’t pay?

        2. newsjustin

          You really think that’s a good idea? CPO are used for very specific purposes and are often hotly contested. Widespread CPO use would terrify FDI clients and anyone who values the importance of private property rights.

          Lets do it and become the Bolivia or Venezuala of western Europe.

          1. newsjustin

            Patrick, I’m offering my opinion. You’re free to offer an alternative. I don’t subscribe to the notion that ones opinion is only valid if one can find someone on the internet who has said it before you.

    2. donkey_kong

      no, some people want there children raised in an ethos. You atheist folk seem to believe in your rights over others.
      I do believe there should be schools for the godless , but don’t deny there are plenty who want religious ethos in the schools.

      1. Lorcan Nagle

        I’ve no problem with religious ethos in a wholly private school, but if you’re taking money from the state, then your shcool should be secular.

      2. Drogg

        If you want to educate your children in you religion send them to sunday school. Church has no place in public school.

        1. newsjustin

          There are almost no “public schools” in Ireland. There are many church run schools. Church has a place in church schools.

  3. bisted

    …educate together schools are a cop out…they are multi-denominational rather than non-denominational…effectively, this means that there are several ‘religious’ stalking the corridors.

    1. missred

      There were no “religious” stalking the corridors when I went to one, funny that. It means they accept everyone of any religion but do not do instruction in mainstream classes.

    2. Anne

      This is nonsense. There are no non-denominational national schools, all national schools have to provide 2.5 hours per week religious instruction. ET schools provide this through their Learn Together curriculum which covers four strands: moral & spiritual, equality & justice, belief systems and ethics & the environment. There are no religious stalking the corridors, any faith formation is arranged by parents and provided outside school hours.

    3. ShankillFalls

      @bisted Absolute rubbish. You clearly know nothing about Educate Together schools if you think “there are several ‘religious’ stalking the corridors.” Any faith formation activities _must_ take place outside school hours and must be organised by the parents with no assistance by the school.

      1. missred

        That is correct. There were 11 Catholic kids in my large class of 36. They did instruction classes for an hour a week after school and we never thought to ask what they were doing in them. All organised by parents with very little fuss.

    4. Drogg

      I firmly agree bisted but at the end of the day educate together schools are a hell of a lot better then church run schools.

  4. FFS

    Up to a couple of months ago I was still hoping that Labour were rowing in behind FG on issues such as Irish water etc so in the background they could get the schools issue sorted. Unfortunately this doesn’t seem to be the case.
    This is just another straw that has finally made me lodge a visa application for Australia. My two boys 3 year old and 10 month old won’t be going through a religious education.

    1. newsjustin

      Not to be flippant, but you really think moving your children to the other side of the world is better for them than the possibility that they may be exposed to some religion in school?

      1. donkey_kong

        clearly they do…..ireland is poo cos they kids learn about jesus and how to treat others with decency.

        On a more serious note – what the kids do learn about is the message of jesus which if you read what jesus actually taught – it was good stuff mostly how to be a good person.

        1. Don Pidgeoni

          Jesus doesn’t have a monopoly on being nice to others. Most religions teach that.

          And if it was just about being a good person, I don’t think most people would have an issue. The anti-choice, out of touch moral nonsense being forced on kids is what I would have an issue with.

          1. Bluebeard

            What would you teach them instead? Inclusion, diversity, empathy,values, princples? Which par to Jesus doesn’t do that?

          2. Don Pidgeoni

            Don’t be a bonehead. You can teach all of that without religion/God/Allah/Guru Nanak being mentioned once. Parents who don’t want religion teachings for their kids need to be accommodated as well.

          3. Bluebeard

            Your persecution of religions and the religious is getting a bit tired Don. You wouldn’t tolerate the same treatment of any other group.

          4. Bluebeard

            No, Im not. But you are a bit of a bully, a bigot and an intolerant discriminator.Hiding behind your neo liberal crap doesn’t cut it mate.

          5. ReproBertie

            When the schools are teaching about Jesus’s good stuff about being a decent person they are also teaching guff about guilt, original sin, asking an imaginary being for help and the whole sex is dirty nonsense. I don’t need my children’s heads filled with that rubbish just to avoid insulting some fairy tale believers.

          6. Don Pidgeoni

            “But you are a bit of a bully, a bigot and an intolerant discriminator”

            lol, this is great.

          7. Bluebeard

            Im sure the people you sneer at and devalue every day don’t think so Don. Can you refute anything I’m saying?

          8. Don Pidgeoni

            Bluebeard, you are the King of Sneer. One day I hope to be as great as you. What is there to refute? You think it needs Jebus because he has the monopoly on not being an a**hat, something you excel at on here daily, I think it can be done without involving religion at all. But rather than discussing that, you accuse me of persecution. Can I have some of what you are smoking please? ty ok bye

          9. Bluebeard

            No answer you gutless muppet. The truth of your bigotry hurts doesn’t it? You might consider that before you belittle others as you do here every day.

          10. Don Pidgeoni

            But I’ve been out in the sun like a spanner and not on here for ages, so how can I belittle people every day?

          11. Bluebeard

            the persecution of Christians is becoming a global issue and people like you are fanning the flames. Casual, smug and arch, but yet hateful, vengeful and disgusting.

          12. Don Pidgeoni

            Wait, are you equating asking for religion-free schools with events like the Kenyan university shooting? Ha, you use good logics there Bluey.

          13. Bluebeard

            Classic whataboutery. Confront your own bigotry before you talk about anyone else. The casual bigotry comes so easy to you that you don’t even see it, you just presume it to be the norm. Thats what gives licence to others to act more violently.

          14. scottser

            ‘Nothing worse than a “caring” bigot- except a smarmy one.’

            how about being a hateful-b@stard-thought-nazi who wants to stifle freedom of thought?

          15. Don Pidgeoni

            Jeez, scottser, I’m annoying but I’m not that bad……

            Though now I’m sad he didn’t call me a thought-Nazi

          16. Bluebeard

            No scottser, the liberals don’t mind thought, as long as its their one. The Nazi thing is a bit much, but their hatred of Catholics would remind one of the hatred of the jews so promoted by the Socialist party.

      2. FFS

        I’ve said above that it is another straw not the only reason. As for donkey_kongs comment below…
        You should have more faith in yourself, do you believe that without religious instruction you would be out committing murders, rapes etc… it’s a sad view of humanity.

  5. Wilhelm

    Why aren’t the schools run by the State, like in every other civilized country? If you want a religious school, make it private. Can the State finally cut the umbilical cord from the church or what?

    1. newsjustin

      The state went for “state-lite” when it came to some institutions like schools and hospitals.

  6. Bluebeard

    Its shocking!!! Shameful!!! Someone should do something!!!! OMG!! medieval, can’t believe this is 21st century Ireland .. Go out and get some sun you spanner!

  7. ABM

    It’s no coincidence there are so few Irishmen in power in the Vatican – the Holy See knows not to trust a nation of a la cartes and a nation that has a history of tolerating abusers, covering up for abusers and dealing with abuse in the most incompetent manner possible. It’s the good priests and religious who have flown the flag and done trojan work I feel sorry for – their work is nullified by at least an order of incompetent magnitude.

    The incompetent Irish church can’t see that allowing a la cartes run rings around schools with a defined Catholic ethos schools does untold damage. The incompetent Irish church pays lip service to promoting a genuinely pluralist education system. The incompetent Irish church has no interest in providing authentic Catholic education to card-carrying Catholics (you know, the types who actually believe in God). The incompetent Irish church is happy to give over all the efforts of those gone before her to aggressively secular interests all in a haze of “inter-faith dialogue”, “tolerance” and “respect”. Relativism, cowardice and capitulating to Dublin media interests is par for the course.

    1. Clampers Outside!

      Not surprising at all is that if you replace ‘Irish Catholic Church’ with ‘Vatican RCC’ in those two paragraphs it still rings true.

      Especially this bit, which describes the Vatican perfectly – “a nation that has a history of tolerating abusers, covering up for abusers and dealing with abuse in the most incompetent manner possible.”

      Wouldn’t you agree ABM, I’m sure you would.

      1. ABM

        Whatever about my jibe about the way Irish dioceses have historically handled abuse, are you trying to suggest that Catholic kids in Catholic schools are more at risk of abuse? If anything, I would argue that they are safer under the care of the Church because the Church has the highest child protection standards in the country.

        1. Don Pidgeoni

          “I would argue that they are safer under the care of the Church because the Church has the highest child protection standards in the country.”

          Thats a great joke

          1. Joe the Lion

            in fairness to him he may have a point

            in the very recent past it would appear they have a robust system in place of detection

            they’ve pulled their cassocks up relatively speaking (compared to other paedos)

          2. Don Pidgeoni

            Wasn’t there a report recently that some (I dont know what the proper word is, churches types you know like Jesuits but not them) were still not reporting abuse to authorities? This was abuse that had been reported to the church only a few years ago. Their attempts would seem a bit more genuine if they were also paying out what was owed to victims instead of wringing their hands about how poor they are.

            PERSECUTION!!

          3. Joe the Lion

            I don’t know Don

            I’m only basing my pov on the stuff you read in the vestibules of chapels now – nearly every one I’ve been in the last few years has a big song and dance about their child protection policy.

          4. Bluebeard

            Good to see you are becoming aware of your lazy bigotry, even if you are still pretending to joke about it.. My work here is done.

          5. Don Pidgeoni

            @Joe – yeah maybe, I believe it when I see it though. And maybe in a nice independent report :)

            @Bluebeard – oh you’re back! And like a bad curry, you just keep repeating yourself

          6. ABM

            Speaking of persecution, how many Christias were tortured or murdered in the last year? Broadsheet seem more concerned with newspaper articles from Nigeria that out homosexuals than the murder of 10000s of their own in Iraq, Syria, etc. That’s where the Vatican’s concerns lie. The sexual habits of decadent Westerners is very much down the priority list. As is intervening in legacy sex abuse issues in Irish dioceses that should have been solved decades ago.

    1. Bingo Slimz

      I hope you’re enjoying yourself in this thread Bluebeard. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed laughing at your posts. God bless you.

        1. Don Pidgeoni

          Did you just spend the whole day trolling me? That is a pretty sad level of dedication. I’ll know for next time I guess

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