105 thoughts on “Tough, But Fair

  1. Soundings

    Well if the banks don’t write off mortgage debt in a consensual manner, the view of the Insolvency Service this week (see below) is the banks will lose an additional €100,000 if the borrower files for bankruptcy. Trouble is, if the banks are going to write debt off, they’ll have to bear in mind individual circumstances, and what I gather the mortgage arrears lot want, is blanket write offs.

    “In its statistical report, the ISI has included the results of:
     an analysis of a sample of 47 cases that were rejected by creditors, and
     an analysis of the status of family homes for those that were declared bankrupt in 2014.
    The first analysis shows that creditors may face an average loss of over €100,000 per rejected
    arrangement. “

    1. Mayor Quimby

      these guys are fighting against people who want to have their cake and eat it. The selfish me-féiners who want to stay in their houses AND get a debt write off. Jerry Beades type chancers.

      David “Casino Owner” Hall – is a Fianna Fail type through and through. and people like you are useful idiots for his company (The Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation Limited)

      I bet you think Brendan and Asta Kelly shouldn’t have been allowed to stay in her Killiney McMansion too?

      1. Soundings

        Not sure at all what has you so het up under the collar – banks are losing out by not agreeing debt writeoffs according to the Insolvency Service of Ireland but there’s still much debate about how debt writeoffs should work.

        By focussing your attack on David Hall personally rather than the policies he is championing, is poor form and suggests you don’t really have faith in counter-arguments. David Hall is old enough to have experience, good and bad, under his belt. I’ve always found him engaging and brimful of ideas. Don’t agree with them all, but to centralise your attack on his former FF links looks weak on your part.

        1. BentoBox

          Some people cannot pay. Other people won’t pay, and others are paying now but are still wondering “Wheere’s my NAMA”.

          Why the hell should a taxpayer servicing a Negative Equity mortgage on a shoebox pay for someone’s 4 bed house in Foxrock – just because the Foxrock fella has had his pay cut.
          Sell up and trade down FFS

        2. BentoBox

          David Hall has had a complete free run in the media for years.

          He was finally called out on Prime Time by Seamus Coffey and he wailed about vilification – when asked to show this vilification he couldn’t. He’s a nasty troll who portrays prudent people as right wing nutters for daring to insist on fairness

        3. Mayor Quimby

          former FF links?? I’m sure he’d be humbled by your characterisation.

          Monday, September 23, 2013
          Irish Mortgage Holders Association director David Hall confirmed he has been asked by members of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party to contest next May’s elections for an MEP seat in Dublin.

          Mr Hall, who lives in Castleknock, north Dublin, previously campaigned for, and was a friend of, the late Brian Lenihan, as well as a supporter of Bertie Ahern.

          “I’m considering it as an option, it would obviously be a major consideration for the family,” said Mr Hall. “That’s where the real selection convention is, in the kitchen at Castleknock.

          “I’m humbled after being asked to run for Europe,” said Mr Hall.

        4. Tá Frilly Keane

          That’s not entirely true
          The Insolvency Service are critical of Banks voting down viable arrangements at creditors meetings.
          Which is why they now reimburse PIPs for their time when proposed arrangements don’t go beyond Protective Cert stage.

          And according to the stats issued for 2015 to date. That’s only 25%’ish of PCs granted. ( forgive a tick or two in the rounding)

    2. Nate Dogg

      Did it ever occur to you that many of the people in arrears are not insolvent?

      In which case bankruptcy isnt an issue.

      You can be behind on your mortgage and still be in positive equity. Sell and trade down?

      1. Adama

        Why are they a bunch of p****s? That website is a valuable counter-balance to all the vested interests that constantly talk up the property market. The VIs that helped get us into the position we’re currently in.

      2. Mayor Quimby

        That website has done more to highlight the property bubble and unfair house prices that any daft, lefty site.

          1. Brook Slope

            Do you have suspicions or any proof? To me they seem like private independent individuals who believe in prudent social and financial governance and anyhow a web forum using off the shelf bulletin board software doesn’t require the huge financial backing of a vested interest.

          2. Mayor Quimby

            Because anyone who has read it should know the answers.

            If you consider tax payers who are against property bubbles, Bank Guarantees and want affordable accommodation to be a “Vested Interest” then I suppose there’s your answer

          3. Joe the Lion

            Whether or not I agree with them (I don’t have time right now to humour your or their blather frankly) the way you describe them there sounds like the definition of a vested interest. The word “payer” signifies a vesting of some sort and they seem to have an interest in something – probably pinning poor folks up against the wall by the sounds of it.

          4. Jock McGee

            The PropertyPin is run and funded by an anonymous new-age leftie guy. It’s ‘administered’ (as in moderated) by a couple of volunteer posters.

            I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit a conspiracy theory narrative that you appear to be trying to create, but it’s a fact.

          5. Joe the Lion

            So “leftie” isn’t a vested interest? Not sure what point you’re trying to make here.

  2. Supercrazyprices

    Selfish short sighted anti-social anti-citizenry attitude. The type of person who sues someone over the slightest thing. The type of person who parks in a disabled spot. The type of person who never makes a sacrifice in their live. The type of person who never bothers to engage with their neighbors or local community.

    These people are real takers in society and think that paying tax absolves them of all other responsibilities. And you can be sure that they are also the type who avoid as much tax as possible but want all the services to the top notch.

    Cannot stand people who want the benefits of a society but won’t contribute or recognize when a group effort or group sacrifice is needed to sustain that.

    1. jonotti

      “These people are real takers in society”

      I’d say the average person on that site probably pays 40k+ in income tax a year yet many of them can’t even afford a shitty 3 bed semi in a non scum infested part of the city.

          1. jonotti

            That is idle speculation because you don’t know what I know.
            I know the average salary of this group, where the people work, where they live/want to live.

    2. bisted

      …not sure you can generalise but in my experience but @Supercrazyprices hits the nail on the head….well said…

      1. Mayor Quimby

        Why don”t you go to thepropertypin.com and see where it began.

        The most vehemently anti Gombeen, Celtic Tiger, housing-bubble website around.

        A shame more people didn’t visit it before it all went Pete Tong

    3. broadbag

      Great to see (Casino Owner) David Hall has a login, and such an apt one too – “Supercrazyprices”

      1. Frilly Keane

        I dunno
        But the David Hall I’ve witnessed
        Wouldn’t hide behind anyrhing
        Super Crazy
        Or what

    4. Mayor Quimby

      Right, because those who are living in houses they’re not paying for are solid upstanding citizens.

      Seriously – you moan about house prices and then proclaim that those who aren’t paying their mortgages are entitled to stay in their “family homes”

      You’ve got a perverse notion of “society”

    5. FirstBass

      Not anti-social at all. In fact the complete opposite.

      Society isn’t working very well any more when people who don’t pay their debts are seen as victims, while at the same time people who do pay their debts/taxes/rent feel like mugs.

      Here’s some idle speculation for you – I’ll bet a large amount that more people have been forced out of their homes because of rent increases in Dubin than have been forced out for non-payment of mortgages

      I’m more than happy that my taxes go towards social services for the common good and to help those in need. I am NOT happy to see my taxes go to pay people’s mortgages. You see the difference?

  3. Jock McGee

    I’d love to think that those lashing out against the letter/principles therein actually took the time to read it and give it some thought.

    But I doubt it.

  4. Mayor Quimby

    There are families up and down the country paying through the nose for in unsuitable rental accommodation while chancers living in McMansions pay nothing towards their mortgages and the banks can’t take back possession of the house.

    This arrears issue means that
    – Supply of houses for sale and rent is reduced

    – SVR borrowers are paying for bank losses

    – No new banks will enter the Irish Mortgage market – SVR rates remain sky high

    – The State’s stake in AIB and PTSB is worth feck all because of bad debts

    if you can’t keep up payments just sell up and downsize or rent like so many others. If there’s outstanding debt then declare bankruptcy. It’s really that simple.

    1. Vote Rep #1

      That is a pretty selfish, short sighted, anti-social, anti-citizenry attitude you have there. If you can’t afford to pay your mortgage, the tax payer should make up the shortfall. I am sure whatever necessary services that money gets diverted from to ensure this will sort themselves out.

  5. ElZilcho

    While I’m dubious about the likely backgrounds of these people (especially the ‘taxpayer’ claim), and it appears that they are not looking to gain support through any kind of personal charm, they are right about the lack of repossessions.

    However, the mortgages of properly distressed borrowers (i.e., those unable, for good reason, to meet the repayments on their sole residential property) should be converted into non-recourse loans, so the properties can be surrendered without any further need to pursue the former mortgage holder for repayment. I’m actually surprised this is never suggested by the Irish Property Owners Association, or any similar front groups, or indeed ‘silent majority’ groups made up of “like minded individuals who are pro mortgage contracts being enforced i.e either you pay the mortgage or you lose the house.”, as set out in the ‘About’ section of the IMHO website.

    1. Mayor Quimby

      the IMHO is a deliberate word-play on the misleadingly named ” Irish Mortgage Holder’s Organisation” Limits. Despite its name it’s not some kind of union or benevolent organisation – unlike the INO or INTO for example one cannot join or vote on policy.

      it’s a limited company set up by David “Casino” Hall – a long time Fianna Fáiler and associate of the disastrous Brian Lenihan

      Monday, September 23, 2013
      Irish Mortgage Holders Association director David Hall confirmed he has been asked by members of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party to contest next May’s elections for an MEP seat in Dublin.

      Mr Hall, who lives in Castleknock, north Dublin, previously campaigned for, and was a friend of, the late Brian Lenihan, as well as a supporter of Bertie Ahern.

      “I’m considering it as an option, it would obviously be a major consideration for the family,” said Mr Hall. “That’s where the real selection convention is, in the kitchen at Castleknock.

      “I’m humbled after being asked to run for Europe,” said Mr Hall.

      1. Joe the Lion

        This “Continuity IMHO” sounds like a wind up or troll account.

        What is your association with it Mayor Quimby?

        Are you the sheriff of Dodge County?

        1. Mayor Quimby

          Troll account?

          Nope. nothing wrong using deliberate provocation to get publicity for your cause.

          nah, I’m sick of holier than thou people like you who haven’t the courage to say No to gombeen men but will compalain about bank guarantees and high rents

  6. myownself

    *clutches pearls and swoons at their rightoeus indignation;on second thoughts- raspberries in the general directions, righteous raspberries

  7. TheDude

    Hmm. maybe blame the banks and their completely reckless lending policies ‘no job but have a pulse? Would you like to throw in an X5 for the driveway?’ for their share price collapse

    1. broadbag

      And there it is! It was those pesky bankers all along, putting guns to people’s heads, forcing them to take out loans they couldn’t afford. A lot of people (not all, but a lot) gambled on house prices due to nothing more than greed and when their gamble backfired they were the first to stop paying their mortgages and stick their hand out for a personal bailout, if the gamble had paid off they wouldn’t have shared the profits out so why should they get to share the losses out while living for free in houses they can’t afford. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Well, no need for that anymore, just blame the big bad banks forever more and fill your boots.

      1. ElZilcho

        Do you think ‘personal responsibility’ applies to banks? And who held a gun to their heads to offer this easy credit?

      2. TheDude

        Agree with you but I am only talking about the share price aspect. Banks made very bad gambles and lost. They owed it to shareholders to be somewhat conservative and not get into the race to the bottom. You and I and the next gen are and will continue to pay for this through the socialism for banks enacted in recent years.

        1. BentoBox

          and we’ll pay even more if the Government decide to pay the mortgages for those who think they are too good to rent or trade down.

          We’ll also lose out on the AIB and PTSB gains – the State owns these two banks and every Euro written off by AIB & PTSB is one Euro less for the shareholders – i.e. the Taxpayers of this country

    2. BentoBox

      so… anyone who has a house he can no longer afford should just keep it?

      Debt wite-off/bankruptcy is one thing, but the fair thing is to give back the keys to the house?

      1. TheDude

        Nope, did I say anything in relation to repos? The banks are the ones responsible for the collapse of their shareprices which this group is pointing issue with

        1. Jock McGee

          I think you’ve missed the point. People have lost a fortune on the value of their bank shares – their live savings, their pensions whatever. For them? Tough shit.

          Other people have lost a fortune on property and aren’t paying their mortgages. For them? The banks, legal system and the government bend over backwards to facilitate them, keeping people in property they haven’t paid a cent on in years in some cases. And anyone who objects to their taxes keeping people in house they aren’t paying for at the cost of the next generation, at the cost of renters, and at the cost of all those better uses of taxes – those people are the bad guys.

          Crazy stuff.

    3. Nate Dogg

      So if you can’t pay your mortgage but could pay rent on a smaller gaff you shouldn’t trade down? To a smaller gaff in a less fancy area?

      If you can no longer afford Ranelagh, maybe you should realise Lucan is in fact OK

  8. Drogg

    Ok so let me get this straight if you can’t pay your mortgage you are scum, but if you lost money on gambling on insolvent bank,s we welcome you with open arms? Not hypocritical at all.

    1. BentoBox

      No one is calling anyone scum.

      You just can’t have your cake and eat it. Pay your mortgage or downsize.

      Who is welcoming any bank speculators?? Very dishonest spin.

    2. Mayor Quimby

      Blaise O’Donnell is that you? Or are you Jerry Beades?

      Who’s calling anyone scum? Who’s saying bank speculators should be welcomed with open arms?

      You’ll find the propertypin types were against speculation and the bank guarantee all along.

      Very odd take on a straight forward proposition.

    3. Evil Al

      No one is calling anyone “scum”. But if you’re living in a house you can’t afford you should move and let someone who *can* afford it. Same for renters.

  9. Eddie Reader

    As much as anyone may even partly agree with some points made by the moral hazarders, it’s going to be hard to take them seriously for a number of reasons:

    1. They don’t provide any information anywhere on their site as to who they are, what they do, or anything that would allow a true understanding of their positions

    2. They’ve actually gone further than holding back such information to actually paying extra money to keep their website registration private in order to keep their identities secret.

    3. I personally don’t have much time for Mr Hall, but this site is very obviously a personal attack on him alone. Whatever the sides and angles, starting a new campaign purely based on a personal attack doesn’t engender much faith, particularly when done anonymously.

    4. When approached via their website looking for additional information, it’s been ignored completely.

    5. Comments posted on their site additionally asking questions or in even a small way critical are ignored as well.

    Why the secrecy? Why the anonymity? Why the intolerance to alternative views?

    1. Joe the Lion

      Thank you (I’m too lazy to do that research myself but that precisely was my own first impression).

      Clearly a vindictive troll with useful idiots Mayor Quimby and Adama astroturfing for them in here.

      ugh I wanna be sick in my mouth ;)

    2. Mayor Quimby

      This is why:


      Picture of The Land League presenting a wreath to head of k- tech security to give to Mr Maloney on behalf of those whom have committed suicide or will commit suicide over Christmas because of the pressure these receivers and security company have put on families.

      A message from the Land League to all receivers this year, We don’t do Christmas either, When you get up on Christmas morning it might be The Land League at your door not Santa Clause.

  10. Brook Slope

    Can’t undermine the message so try to undermine those who deliver it. Nothing wrong with the message then. That is encouraging.

      1. Jock McGee

        You are indeed obvious.

        I’m guessing you or someone close to you hasn’t paid the mortgage in years and you are a bit annoyed that the people funding it aren’t happy.

        1. Joe the Lion

          LOL what is that – the tenth username today?

          You couldn’t be further wrong buddy ;)

    1. Nate Dogg

      Exactly. No one questioned who NamaWineLake was, but someone who takes a stand against the “Where’s my NAMA” crowd with an amateurish website, we he HAS to be a bank shill.

      I’m up to my balls in negative equity like many people my age, but I’m still paying my mortgage on my shoebox. If my taxes bail out those who want to keep their McMansions it’ll be the final straw.

      1. Joe the Lion

        You’re purchasing an asset – there’s no difference in terms between you and those other guys.

        Who are these folks who own McMansions without paying for them and why are they trolling you?

        1. Jock McGee

          Presumably the difference is that he is actually paying for his property and doesn’t think that he should pay for others too.

          You can give away as much of your own money as you like Joe for whatever cause you think is most worthy, but please don’t be so fast to give away other people’s money just so that debt defaulters can get away scot-free.

  11. Kevin M

    The banks have been let off the leash after pouring honey into the ears of FG and Labour. They are actively and aggressively pursuing homeowners, including those who have come to arrangements with them previously.
    How quickly some forget the feeding frenzy of the Tiger, the cheerleading of the media and the silence of FG and Labour.
    If you are facing legal action from the banks contact the Anti-Eviction Taskforce: facebook.com/Antievictiontaskforce

    1. Jock McGee

      Great – Ben Gilroy™ will turn up with a few of his anti-everything nutters, stage a pyrrhic victory for Youtube, then not be seen for dust when the actual repossession takes place.

      The anti-eviction clown force has no magical powers to make the justice system go away. If you can’t pay for an asset, you don’t own it. End of story.

  12. Sinabhfuil

    If the councils would get back to building homes (and build them with better facilities this time) the number of people desperate for a place to live would abate and prices would drop. Rents would come down. With more people renting, house prices would come down. With more people borrowing, the banks might ease off their Scrooge McDuck act.

  13. lotlessCoffee

    The ‘leet’ are blowing each other off again now there’s a few quid to be made buying up distressed houses, just before the imminent surge in property prices driven by the fleeing investors who can no longer afford to buy property in London, it’s a pity those selfish home owners who are still struggling to pay their mortgages and new taxes thanks to the Moral Hazard of the banks and their investors, appear to be getting an easy ride?

    Maybe these mortgage holders should do the right thing and pop over to the UK and bankrupt themselves in same fashion as many of the Moral Stakeholders did in their droves, maybe NAMA can take on the mortgages and sell them back to home owners in a few years at mates rates, and then give the mortgage holders a salary until they are ready to sell the mortgage back to them..

    Any losses on your bank shares were from Morale Hazard, not from people doing their best to hold on to their family homes, you must have appreciated there was a risk from investing your money in an organisation that was not financially sound, did you not see how exposed your investment was, even your own Moral Hazard brigade were talking about the economy going south well before your bank shares took a haircut.

    You couldn’t possibly be a seasoned investor, if you were you wouldn’t be trying to lay blame at other people’s doors when the lack of understanding and knowledge regarding investments is so obvious based on the ridiculous nonsense that is pouring out of you.

  14. Caroline

    Their position is entirely reasonable and frequently unrepresented in even lengthy discussions about the issue. What is not clear is whether the bulk of the housing stock which could be released by way of repossessions is in fact what many pinsters would so dearly love to get their paws on: large family homes in very specific areas of SCD.

  15. Truth in the News

    Moral Hazard Organisation….what, well where can their high principles on
    the issue be applied in respect of the debt the irish taxpayer and citizen
    has become burdoned with in baling out the Banks, Anglo, Fingelton ect ect
    what applies to mortgage debtor, same should alpply to the Banks too, who
    in main Banks lost a fat pension, a position, or a house……? Morals…Really:

  16. Eulich McGee

    why the assumption that right offs are being demaded by people who have just refused to pay.

    what about those who have been paying, have still got zero disposable incomes yet have not had a evening at the cinema or a pint in the pub for 8 years, holidays are a distant memory and have no prospect of moving out of the situation because negative equity has them trapped. How long is the current situation sustainable for them?

    1. Mayor Quimby

      Actually, David Hall has complained that the Insolvency Service are querying the size of homes – e.g people with 4/5 bed houses are being asked if they really need a house that big.

      if you want a debt write down is it too much to ask than you trade town to a house you *can* afford.

      There are people who”have not had a evening at the cinema or a pint in the pub for 8 years” and are still paying taxes and mortgages in full. Those people shouldn’t be asked to pay higher tax/SVR to bail out others.

  17. Kolmo

    IMHO – sponsored by marketing dept of the banks supported by well-spoken and vocal reactionary members of the insulated classes, sinister pr*cks.

    1. Tá Frilly Keane

      Are you referring to David Hall’s IMHO or Continuity IMHO with your sponsored by the Banks proffer?

      One of those has AIB money
      KBC money
      And something going with Grant Thornton

  18. Toni The Exotic Dancer

    If the value of their properties had kept going up, would these same people looking for a bailout be now willing to socialise the profits? There were plenty of people who didn’t load up on debt, who are now paying higher rents & paying higher interest rates on mortgages because of the failure to repossess properties from the can’t pay/won’t pay brigade.

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