‘They Have Agreed To Continue Discussions’

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People who support the plan for Travellers to use the site in Rockville Drive; and Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council’s statement this afternoon

[The] second meeting between residents of Rockville Drive and Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council officials ended a short time ago. The council has just issued a statement saying, it has taken on board the residents’ concerns and that it emphasised that this site can only be used for a six-month period. They have agreed to continue with discussions.”

Back in the estate, other residents have gathered on the street. Some have expressed anger over allegations being made they are ant-Traveller. They say their concerns about anti-social behaviour and the suitability of the site are well-founded. While a number of them attended last night’s vigil to express their sympathies over the halting site’s deaths.”

A handful of protesters in favour of opening the site arrived into the estate this morning, they claim there is no basis for residents’ fears.”

Joe Mag Raollaigh on News At One earlier.

Meanwhile, the Irish Traveller Movement has posted a piece written by David Joyce on its Facebook page.

Mr Joyce writes:

“Five children dead! Five adults dead! A seriously injured 4-year-old still in hospital! All of whom have died or suffered injury in what may have been absolutely preventable circumstances. Five days or so on from what was and still is, to a large extent, genuine sympathy for the victims? We now have a complete circus of media comment, condemnation, recrimination, and counter recrimination.

“Where is media reasonability in a time of national tragedy? Ireland and the Irish people have suffered a number of tragedies this year. In the summer we, as a nation, lost six young people in tragic circumstances in a foreign country. We all collectively mourned the loss of potential in those young people to our nation arising from that needless tragedy.

When an international newspaper suggested that those victims may have brought it upon themselves and engaged in perpetuating stereotypes of the Irish as heavy-drinking, noisy louts who wreck property, and showed no respect for their neighbours, there was widespread, national repulsion at all levels – forcing a reaction and an apology from the New York Times.

“Five days after a tragedy of greater proportion in terms of loss of life, with victims not even buried, Irish media outlets have gone into a frenzy of victim blaming allowing through their social media sites a river of vitriol that perpetuates stereotypes of Travellers as heavy-drinking, noisy louts who wreck property and show no respect for their neighbours.”

“But not content with such standard poison, the media outlets’ facilitates and allows comments that include ‘10 less robbers’, or ‘who would want robbers thieves or burglars living beside them’.”

“I was born in a caravan and grew up in a Traveller tradition living on campsites and on official halt sites. My two eldest children were also born in caravans and spent their formative years living on halt sites and campsites. One graduated and left Ireland, like many of our young, for economic reasons.”

“He has a found a greater welcome and acceptance teaching in a foreign culture and country halfway around the world then he might ever find in his home country. The other graduated into the medical profession among the top percentile of her class.”

“When I think of the loss of life in Carrickmines, I think of the loss of potential to our community and our nation. I don’t recognise the gross stereotypes of the Traveller community.”

“Of course it is the job of newspapers to report the tragedy as news, and that is what they must do, but when will the Irish media take some responsibility and close down the comment facilities at least until the victims have been buried?.”

“I don’t expect an apology from the Irish media for the victim blaming that has emerged on their media sites. I would expect, in line with one of the greatest of Irish traditions, a semblence of respect for the dead.”

Irish Traveller Movement (Facebook)

Pics: Zara King

65 thoughts on “‘They Have Agreed To Continue Discussions’

  1. Jess

    Well said David Joyce. I can’t begin to imagine what its like for the survivors to be confronted with this at this time

    1. Clampers Outside!

      I was like that, and I still have a bit of it to be completely honest. But I try to stop myself when II view travellers in a ‘stereotype’.
      But, it’s not hard to start thinking like that when you’ve been robbed and/or beaten up numerous times at non-alcoholic discos, and grown up clubs through your entire teens. With six foot brick sh*t houses standing over you while some pip squeek goes through your pockets looking for your money. Literally running his hands into your jeans pockets front and back through your jacket, the lot. All the while some big growling “knacker” with fists like bolders keeping you in place so you don’t call for help (yes, these type were what I’d have called ‘knackers’; nothing like the traveller that might have helped my uncles on their farms).
      Then there’s calling to the door, doesn’t happen any more from what I can see. They’d ask for stuff, anything. They’d get a bag full of clothes from my Mum which were washed and ironed… and later the bags were found strewn and dumped and scattered all over the bottom of the road….
      Some people don’t move on from having a closed view due to similar experiences. I still struggle with not having biased views on travellers today. But I try not to.

      1. Dόn Pídgéόní

        I just have never ever had those experiences with the ones I have met. I was working in a hospital once and was shocked when the nurses said there’s travelers on the ward so make sure you lock everything up. Yes, you may have had bad experiences but that is out and out racism.

        It’s just weird to me and weird how on BS you get so much hatred.

        1. John E. Bravo

          I have had those experiences and I have no problem with travellers because – shock horror – racism is illogical thinking.

          1. John E. Bravo

            Best way to understand it is that there’s a real cultural, antisocial problem with settled people where to their credit, they’re able to spot anti-Irish racism and anti-minority prejudice regularly and call it out for what it is, but sadly most of them have a ridiculous, indefensible and despicable blind spot to the fact that they are racists.

          2. Sido

            I suppose one of the easiest ways to bring a rationale to the situation, would be to stop the ridiculous pretence that Travellers are a separate race to the white majority.

        2. ahyeah

          Have a pretty much identical view and experience of travellers as Clampers. Had countless negative experiences at their hands when I was growing up. And, in truth, I was afraid of them. And it’s hard now not to have a niggling sense that they’re. ..a nuisance to society and little else. Certainly not proud of feeling that way – in fact, dislike it hugely in myself – and would never consciously discriminate against a traveller. But if I was asked to be all cool and liberal in the face of a group being placed next door to me, I’d probably nod agreement – but I’d have more than a few mixed feelings secretly.

          1. John E. Bravo

            I definitely know what you’re saying, but feelings can be wrong. Not like morally wrong, though yes maybe – but founded on false principles. And the principle that suggests that a traveller could be predisposed to different types of behaviour than a settled person because they are a traveller is an example of one of the oldest fallacies in the world that gets disproved over time in every society it comes up in.

          2. scottser

            i call it the ‘denis irwin syndrome’. you never saw the bould denis making last-gasp amazing tackles. what you saw was a quiet, competent professional going about his business without all the flash. the stuff that’s visible and makes the news is invariably the anit-social stuff . you won’t see a headline that says ‘traveller kid gets a great leaving cert’. and i’d be the first to admit there’s a problem within that group of people. but do you think that travellers don’t know that themselves?

          3. John E. Bravo

            Individuals aren’t answerable for their community, only their actions. This never happens to majority racial groups. Nothing so dispiriting as the pressure on moderate Muslims or respectable travellers. Anyone who feels like bad behaviour elsewhere is an excuse not to show compassion when ten people have died in an accident need their priorities readjusted sharply.

      2. MoyestWithExcitement

        As long as you try and realise that others (albeit probably in the US or UK) could post the same thing you did but with the word ‘black’ replacing ‘traveller’.

      3. Clampers Outside!

        @Don, John E, Moyes… please do note that I stay on top of any bias as best I can.

        Don’t say that you have no biases of your own that you dont stay on top of. That would just mean you aren’t really human, we all have bias, it’s how we manage it. I keep mine in check.

        This came up in the homophobic debates. And it was said by all sides that there is bioas in us all whether we like it or not. Giving some examples of where I believe I may have got mine doesn’t make me a feckin’ racist.

        1. John E. Bravo

          Sorry Clampers, you’re right – I misread your comment and thought you were suggesting it carried down into behaviour.

          There’s a great concept of intrusive thoughts – which is where I bag up and store any racist thoughts that do come to mind. Quarantining them like that helps to make sure they don’t come out in behaviour. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thought

        2. MoyestWithExcitement

          “please do note that I stay on top of any bias as best I can.”

          Absolutely noted. As I said, ‘As long as you try’.

          “Don’t say that you have no biases of your own that you dont stay on top of. That would just mean you aren’t really human, we all have bias, it’s how we manage it. I keep mine in check.”

          Not really, mate. I mean, I have biases but bigotry is something else entirely. I know folks like to try and rationalise their weaknesses by comparing themselves to others but, well, that’s just them trying to alleviate the guilt they have for having those biases.

          “Giving some examples of where I believe I may have got mine doesn’t make me a feckin’ racist.”

          I don’t anyone said it did…….although mayyyyyyybe, it COULD, be argued that what you were doing there was excusing your feelings and trying to present them as rational, thereby excusing them. But, then, I like to argue.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            “excusing your feelings and trying to present them as rational, thereby excusing them.”

            Sorry. Awful sentence.

      4. Owen

        Hey Clamps, I understand you have had your hardships with them. I have had too. I worked with the community, and stood in court with them (for and against as an expert witness), and I actually boxed with them a number of times. But I think the underlying statement here is that this is not the time to recant reasons to be angry at a community.

        Its horrible for them. Joyce is right. Comments need to be blocked on the articles. I don’t envy the residents, but I see their point.

        DLRCOCO really f**ked up on this. If you’re going to point a finger, point it at them. A knee jerk reaction to a massive loss of life.

        1. scottser

          if you worked for the council, what would you propose as an alternative though? i’m genuinely interested in responses here as it’s all become a bit of a circus: criticising travellers or the local residents isn’t going to help anyone resolve this dispute. the council has to provide a response for the next number of months to these bereaved families. genuinely, what do you think the council should do?

          1. Owen

            They should take a step back from the panic and react in the manner emergency plans are designed for.

            1. House the required in a public hall or building they have ownership of (building being the key word). The same way if a natural disaster was responsible. This should have a shelf life of 2-3 weeks. The army can support the needs through beds etc (see homeless issue last year short term resolution). Gov and NGO support etc.

            2. Set up a 6 month timeline to find a new location to develop or re-develop. Ideally have that 6 months result in the permanent and safe development of the land they have been removed from (albeit an initial temp solution).

            3. Set a build period (6mths-1yr). Timelines put pressure on DLRCOCO, not the public, as is needed.

            4. Use the initial 2-3 week to find a suitable ‘temporary’ location in Dublin, and not limit themselves to 1 mile of the disaster. Plenty of funding on a national level for travelers they can draw from, and plenty of land in other councils they can look into. Use the ‘moral ground’ to negotiate with other councils rather then the public.

            5. Solution would see them in a new development, suitable for needs, in proximity to their lost land in 1-1.5yrs.

          2. scottser

            fair play owen. my understanding is that the families at glenamuck were to be prioritised for the new glendruid site anyway, which will be onstream next year. what’s needed is a 6-8 month temporary solution within the council’s remit.

            the only council-owned building near there would be ballyogan road beside the recycling centre – but i’d say any council owned building wouldn’t be ready for inhabitation in 2-3 weeks. to me, a 6-8 month modular housing solution could be a better option. the site that’s been proposed is an easy tap into services and utilities feeding the surrounding area. to put these in from scratch somewhere else would take a lot longer than 2-3 weeks.

            one of the biggest problems for any homeless family is getting kids to school and upheaval from local services. i’d be reluctant to to suggest any more stress to these families by moving them if possible.

            either way, i hope hey all come to some kind of agreement soon.

      5. Dee Cunniffe

        I live in a small town and every so often there’s hush over the town – “The tinkers are coming!”. The shops and pubs close and the locals hide behind their curtains – its a disturbing thing to witness in this day and age.

    2. Dog Gone. IT

      You guys?

      I tell you what I hate

      Pig ignorant foreigners ranting daily on an Irish discussion board about stuff they clearly know nothing about

      1. Dόn Pídgéόní

        ME DOG, ME ANGRY, ME MAKE THE MEANS. BLAH BLAH TROLLFACE. DERP DERP DERPY HEAD!!!111 NOOBZ!

  2. Not Gerry Adams

    Hey, if a load of teachers or medical professionals are living on that site, I’m sure the locals would love to have them.

    The truth though…

    1. Dόn Pídgéόní

      You have never lived next to a flat of nurses – the worst and most inconsiderate and messy neighbours I have ever had.

    2. Owen

      Well done….. Captain Obvious. The reason the residents are protesting is cause they are travelers, and not teachers and medical professionals.

  3. MoyestWithExcitement

    “Hey, if a load of teachers”

    Like the teacher that happens to be a traveller and who was referenced in the above posting? Or like the teachers from Kerry that used to live next door to me and kept me up till 2 God damn AM with crappy dance music practically every night during school holidays?

  4. Joan Burton

    Do any of you live in the area ? Know any residents in the area ?

    You can hold the differing opinions of being shocked by what has happened but not wanting a national, not local, problem moved into your estate.

    If you live in the area you would know that this site that was damaged was also a ‘temporary’ 6 month site put in 7 years ago.

    The local residents associations would tell you that the level of anti social behavior , break ins and littering has increased over this period. The sports club which the halting site is at the entrance of will tell you that the number of cars in their car park broken into and damage has also increased during this time.

    Though this is all a coincidence and I am a ‘racist’ dealing in stereotypes.

    1. Mark Dennehy

      > Do any of you live in the area ? Know any residents in the area ?

      I live in this area.
      Yes, our level of breakins has gone up in recent years.
      It wasn’t coincident with the creation of a halting site. It was coincident with the closing of the stepaside Garda Station.

      These people just survived the worst fire in living Irish memory – you have to go back to the Stardust disaster to find worse. And in both cases, the people who should have been spending money to prevent the fire did not. We’ll turn round and protest in thousands to take in more Syrian refugees on the sight of one drowned toddler. That’s a good thing. I just wonder why the hell the news of five burned-to-death children doesn’t elicit the same response and why we don’t fell like hypocritical gobshites over it.

    2. curmudgeon

      This is the reality of the situation, travelling communities have not integrated into the general populace and still live very much to their own rule. Crime and anti social behaviour committed by travelers within these isolated communities cannot be ignored for cultural reasons or political correctness as they only manifest into bigger problems.

  5. MoyestWithExcitement

    “The local residents associations would tell you that the level of anti social behavior , break ins and littering has increased over this period.”

    They’ve reported all these to the authorities so everyone else will have verifiable data on the increase of crime in the area as opposed to prejudiced anecdotes, right?

    “I am a ‘racist’ dealing in stereotypes.”

    Weeellll…..

    1. Joan Burton

      @MoyestWithExcitement “They’ve reported all these to the authorities so everyone else will have verifiable data on the increase of crime in the area”

      The sports club report all car break ins as do the 2 residents associations I had contact with also do.
      You cant call the local garda station as shatter shut it down (stepasdie) try cabinteely (35316665400) they will be able to verify my wild assertions !

        1. Joan Burton

          I think you’re actually back me up there while trying to me a smart arse.

          Cheers.

          smiley face

  6. Paolo

    Pavee point and co can say what they like. Everyone who has lived near a halting site is fully aware of what happens when travellers move in.

  7. Bonkers

    Some of the vitriol against the victims of this fire over on the Journal is astonishing, that site has become a hotbed of racism over the last while

    1. curmudgeon

      Why o why do people keep calling it racism. They are not a different race, the correct word is prejudice. They are prejudice against the travellers. Many irish were racially prejudiced against Nigerian immigrants 20 years ago, but so much today though. The Nigerian irish today have integrated well, their children gone through primary secondary and now third level education. Many traveler families pull their children from school at age 13 and the boys are taught the trade which is thievery and the girls are taught to be mammies in waiting and nothing beyond that station. So I ask you is there any other group ethnic or otherwise that could do this in modern Ireland? And am I racist for asking these questions?

      1. Don Pidgeoni

        Because racism isn’t about race, it includes ethnic groups such as travelers. So people should stop being racist if that’s what they are being.

        1. curmudgeon

          OK that’s a great analysis, but let’s go slightly deeper than surface level. Is tarring all travelers with the same brush and writing utterly tasteless comments about them on a news story where two families died in absolutely tragically preventable circumstances, well obviously yes it is! Now here’s a harder one for you, is opposing a new traveler settlement in your area wrong (or “racist”) ? Answer that.

  8. Wearnicehats

    Would it be ridiculous to suggest that the traveller community put these poor prople up in one of their own sites?

Comments are closed.