‘This Is Going To Create Huge Challenges’

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Fine Gael MEP and director of elections, Brian Hayes

On RTÉ Radio One’s Marian Finucane show yesterday the newspaper panel discussed the recent deportation case of the so-called ‘Isil recruiter’ – a 52-year-old father of four who has been living in Ireland for 15 years.

The panel consisted of Fine Gael MEP and director of elections Brian Hayes; Fianna Fáil TD and chairman of the Public Accounts Committee John McGuinness, tax expert and founding member of Tipp McKnight Solicitors Ursula Tipp; crime journalist at the Irish Independent Paul Williams; and finance correspondent at the Irish Times Ciarán Hancock.

At the end of the discussion Mr Hayes raised his concerns about individuals taking cases to the European Court of Human Rights.

Grab a tay.

Ursula Tipp: “The case began on December 21st when this person secured an ex parte – which means a one-sided – temporary injunction preventing his deportation. He was told, ‘ok, look, you get deported’, so he sought the court’s protection, the Irish court’s protection because this case is in Ireland. So the court first granted him this injunction which means it’s not a full judgement but, for the moment basically, a stay on proceedings so that he could stay. This then was actually, the second step was, it was appealed to the High Court by the State and the High Court then lifted the injunction and then the man went back against that decision to the Court of Appeal and then the Court of Appeal actually sat last Wednesday to consider and, at that point, they only had to consider the narrow issue of a stay against the High Court’s lift. And then the Court of Appeal was basically stopped in its tracks, it couldn’t make a decision on it via facts which it received from the European Court of Human Rights…The European Court of Human Rights basically based their stopping of proceedings in Ireland on Article 3 of the Convention of Human Rights. That’s a convention basically why we have the court of human rights and Ireland is a member of it…”

Marian Finucane: “And this said, you may not be returned to a country where they will torture you.”

Tipp: “Yes. It basically says inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment. OK? That’s what Article 3 of the convention says.”

Finucane: “So what happens? Does that override the Irish courts?”

Tipp: “Yes it does because it stands above all that, it even stands above European law.”

Finucane: “It’s just interesting that in this week, if you take in Germany, they closed down the train stations…”

Tipp: “Two train stations..”

Finucane: “If you take in Brussels that they cancelled New Year’s…”

Brian Hayes: “The New Years’ celebrations..”

Finucane: “Similarly in Paris, because they’re afraid of what this crowd Daesh might be doing and planning against us. And like there are human rights..Paul [Williams] did you have a look at that?”

Paul Willliams: “Dearbhail [McDonald] makes a very good point here in the Sunday Independent where she says, you know, that Ireland finds itself at the heart of a legal and moral dilemma in which ISIL suspects may be waging an assault on the west by relying on its human rights laws. Like I recall, sorry…”

Finucane: “It’s a real irony…”

Williams: “Well there’s a real group, there’s a group of people still on this island send out people to murder…”

Finucane: “Now, now, now. Now, now Paul, I’m sorry…”

Williams: “To martyr…”

Finucane: “I get the message that you do not support Sinn Féin.”

Williams: “Oh no, I’m not talking about that, I’m talking about the IRA. But the same argument was…”

Tipp: “Well, maybe, let’s stay with this case…”

Williams: “It’s the same thing with human rights. When people went out to commit murder and they were caught and they were shot dead by security services, then they become murdered people and then they cite human rights and I’m just trying to put it in perspective…”

Finucane: “And rightly, and rightly. That’s what we’ve been working towards..”

Williams: “Yeah and as Dearbhail says…”

Talk over each other

Tipp: “Can I say this one thing on this one because what’s important on this case is that you know there’s this thing, you’re innocent until proven guilty. And that’s true for every human being. And that’s a very general principle. And this particular person in this deportation case is, you know, has to be seen in the same light: innocent until proven guilty. And, as far as I understand, from all that, there has not been the proof that this particular person was even involved in certain things, that proof has not been produced yet.”

Finucane: “Well they say that he’s been under surveillance for many, many years.”

Tipp: “Yes, yeah, and there might be something Marian. I’m only saying that, for the moment..”

Finucane: “No evidence.”

Tipp: “There’s no evidence, yeah.”

Brian Hayes: “But this is going to become more common.”

Tipp: “This is where…yes…but this is where the European Court of Human Rights comes from because they are looking at, they’re treating everybody just as a human being. And no matter how evil, no matter how evil, that.”

Hayes: “The important thing about the European Court of Human Rights, this was the court that ultimately say in the Norris case which ultimately overthrew our ridiculous laws on homosexuality where Ireland was found in breach of denying rights to gay people that famous Norris, David Norris showed great courage in taking that case that subsequently had a change in law. But we now have a situation where individuals, rather than issues, are being taken to the court of human rights and this is going to create huge challenges in circumstances where we have got to confront this new terror outfit called ISIS.”

Listen back here in full

Related: Dearbhail McDonald: Deportation fight creates quagmire for State lawyers (Sunday Independent)

Leah Farrell/Rollingnews.ie

27 thoughts on “‘This Is Going To Create Huge Challenges’

  1. Medium Sized C

    Its like when a boxing coach holds up the two pads so you can punch one and then punch the other one in a combo like.

    POW-POW.

    1. Medium Sized C

      Also Brian Hayes and Batman on one panel???

      Its like Marian won the feckin eejit lotto.

  2. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    Marian Finucane called them Daesh.
    The rest of them would serve themselves better by being as brief.

    And serve the rest of us better too.

  3. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    Seriously, why are we not calling them Daesh?
    They hate it.

    This ISIL, ISIS, IS confusion is not necessary at all.

    DAESH.
    Get used to it, use it.
    There’s other words you could use, but from what I’ve learnt this is the best one to use.

    DAESH.
    D-A-E-S-H.

      1. manolo

        It helps make it less attractive to recruits. I believe it does. Calling them a state is a big mistake.

  4. Steve

    Still trying to figure out what was so controversial about Hayes comment that warranted his pic making the screengrab of the BS article…then I remembered it’s BS. Could you not get a pic of Ursula tipp or Marian??

    This is not a black and white issue as those on either side want to make out – deport him coz he’s a terrorist vs. we can’t deport him coz he has rights. I think Hayes tried to get that across.

    But anyway – 36%. It’s happening baby.

    1. Sam

      Where did Hayes try to do anything but avoid arguing the principles, and pretend it was ‘individuals’ not legal principles that are argued in the ECHR?

        1. Tighe

          Ah Steve that’s a cheap shot-just because I don’t agree with your politics doesn’t make me one of the 5%. Does that make me a ‘dissident’ or something? Let me know. Laters.

  5. Jake38

    First the Brits were in charge of us, then we were ruled by the Catholic Church, now its the European Court of Human Rights. Can we have a soverign republic at some point please?

  6. fluffybiscuits

    Why are people forgetting that everyone has human rights no matter how evil they are? An eye for an eye and the whole flipping world goes blind. Rights belong to every individual.

    1. Neilo

      No one’s forgetting an entitlement to human rights although I’ve always thought that a right enjoyed without commensurate personal responsibility is free licence. ISIS’ free licence has deprived many people of life and liberty through murder, mutilation and enslavement.

      1. ivan

        exactly. Rights are funny things; you’ve free speech but if (and yes, it’s an old one) you shout ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre and there’s a stampede, good luck with claiming that you were only exercising said right. It’s an extreme example (because extreme ones tend to be effective) but few rights are completely unqualified.

  7. Neilo

    @Ivan: indeed. Only college lecture I never missed was Introduction to Ethics with Msgr O’Donnell.

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