Gemma O’Doherty writes:
A key suspect in the murder of Dublin teenager Raonaid Murray has been shielded for almost 17 years due to Garda misconduct during the original investigation, a source close to the case has alleged.
The suspect knew the 17-year-old student well and had a personal grudge against her, the source claims.
Raonaid was repeatedly stabbed just metres from her home in Silchester Park, Dun Laoghaire, Co Dublin on September 4, 1999.
Her body was found by her sister minutes after the attack, which took place around midnight. The murder weapon is believed to have been a kitchen knife.
The original Garda investigation was crippled by a litany of ‘mistakes’ which many say point to a cover-up.
It has come to light that ever since her killing some gardai had evidence that the suspect knew her well.
Raonaid was not the victim of a sexual assault or theft.
The alleged motive for the attack centred around a personal disagreement between her and her attacker, the source asserts.
The suspect was prone to violent outbursts and has since attacked at least one other female.
It is alleged the individual has never been questioned properly by An Garda Siochana for Raonaid’s murder and was treated leniently in the early stages of the investigation.
After the killing, a relation of the suspect expressed serious concerns about their involvement but no action was taken.
Unusual behaviour by the individual in the period after the murder, and beyond, was also ignored.
The person subsequently came to the attention of gardai in relation to other matters.
New evidence has also emerged aboutthe behaviour of the lead officer in the original investigation, Detective Inspector Eamon O’Reilly
His failure to investigate vital evidence in the days after the murder provided the key suspect with immunity from investigation, claims the source, who adds that suspicious activity by other individuals who knew the suspect was ignored.
It is also believed that a house the suspect attended on the night of the murder was never adequately searched despite a number of unusual events that took place there.
A Cold Case review of the case, which began in 2008, identified several mistakes in the original investigation including the revelation that no search of the killer’s potential escape route was ever carried out.
Now in their 30s, the suspect lives periodically in Dublin. They are prone to aggressive outbursts, takes medication for violent mood swings and has assaulted at least one other woman. The individual has also been in psychiatric care.
Pic: An Garda Síochána
Raonaid was the daughter of Deirdre and Jim Murray, a principal in a local boys’ school. She had two older siblings Daniel and Sarah.
She had just completed her Leaving Cert when she was killed and was hoping to study Arts in UCD.
An avid reader who loved poetry, her dream was to become a professional writer.
At the time of the murder, she was working in a clothes shop called Sally West in Dun Laoghaire Shopping Centre and was preparing to repeat the Leaving Cert at the Institute of Education on Leeson Street.
On the night she was killed, she finished work at 9pm and went for a drink with a friend in Scott’s Bar, a short walk from her home.
She left at about 11.20pm, and was planning to go home and change before going to a night club.
When she got to Silchester Crescent, a laneway close to her home, she was heard having a row with a person she knew. Witnesses heard her telling the person to ‘Fuck off’ and ‘Leave me alone’ before letting out a loud scream.
As she tried to drag herself away, the killer continued to attack her until she could no longer walk and collapsed. She died at the scene.
Claims several years ago that a blood-marked kitchen knife was found on the rooftop of an abandoned building very near the murder scene have never been formally verified by Gardai.
I remember saying at the time Raonaid died, the killer will be found either immediately, or 20 years from now.
It’s more likely that the suspect is already well known to the cops but will never be prosecuted.
Great insight, Inspector.
and your input here is astounding. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?
Mighty work as usual Gem cakes
Gemma O’Doherty is a hero. She’s already paid the price for her bravery
Dun laoighre Garda station has much form in corruption and ignorance of the truth
A lot of connected wealthy people around there whose children’s crimes need to be covered up.
What are you trying to insinuate ? Typical bogger or north side hung up comment !!!!!
Which is it? The Northsiders or the bogger or maybe other Jackeens or maybe he’s *jiust* a Kerry Jackeen …. pretty broad canvas of people to paint with your broad brush there. Perhaps you are not paranoid. Maybe they do all hate you.
Its unbelievable the garda have so much to answer for rip
The country needs more like you Gemma. There are probably a tonne of these cases. Keep up the good work.
is he in his late 30s
“Now in their 30s, the suspect lives periodically in Dublin. “
Or she, presumably.
“They are prone to aggressive outbursts” – more than one suspect so…
They /ðeɪ/ is the third-person plural personal pronoun (subjective case) in Modern English. It can also be used with singular meaning, particularly in informal contexts, sometimes to avoid specifying the gender of the person referred to.
1) It’s obviously a male
2) Informal context – it’s excusable in speech, not in text on a most serious issue
Straight to the heart of the periphery there Quimby
It’s not obviously a male. Could very well be female.
For obvious reasons Gemma can’t say “he” or “she”. Hence “they”. This is scary and so sad for her family knowing they could easily have justice, if not closure.
You know it was acceptable for 500 years to refer to a non gendered third person as “they” and has been around for 700 years?
You’re just trying to apply a false Latin interpretation of English to the language.
It’s far from obviously a male, so I don’t know where you got that idea from.
Raonaid is such a beautiful girl as well. Let’s hope her family may eventually find some peace.
You know it is also a terrible shame when awful things happen to people who are not bueatiful and they and their families are just as deserving of your sympathy.
Remember this like it was yesterday. Brilliant work Gemma. You’re a beacon of hope in this corrupt country
I’d even go so far as to say that the suspect was either in “care” or on bail at the time
Raonaid a stór
You will get your day of Justice
* or a much older, like 30 years plus, male
So suspect related to one of the untouchable sections of society, guards/politician/priest/businessman/gaa player. Therefore couldn’t of done it.
Ireland what a great little country
Although if the suspect is from a poor background and had a rough upbringing then you (or others) will probably make excuses for them too.
We’re not talking about excuses being made. We’re talking about a murder suspect getting away scot-free.
You don’t half make it obvious how you class yourself.
All part of God’s great big plan for us all
Raonaid was one of my best friends, we went to school together and hung out loitering about and getting up to stuff all the time outside that. At the time of the immediate investigation I felt that we as her friends were handled in an awkward manner. Although obviously shaken I felt as though in questioning they not only implied that we, or at least that she (incorrectly I might add not that its relevant) was ‘a bit of a slut’, and constantly led the questions as if we were a bunch of freaks, since a lot of us dressed in more black clothes than most. It became implied that we were odd, slightly wicked and bold kids always doing questionable things. I felt, as did others, they also used the investigation to fish for local small time drug knowledge, trying to eek out irrelevant info to bulk up other ‘now solved cases’. I am certain that my impression of this was altered due to the trauma we were all going through, but I found it odd that when handling a large group of grieving teenagers, instead of comprehending the intensity of what we were going through, they acted in a way I found to be accusatory and in instances felt a little ‘well what did you kids expect since your all that sort.’ Im certain it was a hard job for those guards and likely a first experience of this kind of investigation but I also felt that things I was concerned about and questions I had from knowing her and our group were treated dismissively. Its hard to say that in a definitive way as we were all so shaken, and it is awful to feel like your being accused of being part of such a terrible thing while your trying to deal with your loss simultaneously, but there was no sufficient approach to correctly deal with people in our situation. I mean you don’t get councillors, you don’t get addressed for how your feeling mentally, your lost. Your under too much mental strain to think clearly and you are hating yourself for forgetting anything that ever happened, from tiny details to big things. To be put under investigation rather than to be treated as real humans that want to help figure out whats happened does not give you the chance to be fully useful in the case. I personally feel that the mentality of the police in the investigation, though Im sure well intended, was not correct in dealing with us in such a manner. It felt like ‘those damn kids that always dirty up our area by hanging out are all in the station as we expected’ as if the fact that they moved us on from sitting around from time to time and didnt much like us had any relevance to actual murder. I am certain from this experience that real concerns we had ourselves as her close friends were poo pood as they built up their own judgements of us. Im sure being a guard in this situation is not easy but I am not surprised after my experiences that its taken this long for this article to come out. We felt they were not there to help us or to listen, and how could they get the right evidence if thats how her closest friends felt. I remember telling one at the scene the next day about concerns I had and mentioned names of people who had strange relationships with her as well as knife fixations or odd tendencies. No notebook was taken out, nothing was written down, and eventually I walked away. It was inevitable that the situation would still be clouded today and I think I knew that straight away.
Would it be possible to discuss something with you?
That’s a disgrace. I hope Raonaid and her family, as well as you & her friends get justice soon. Not just with the killer, but with anybody who was involved in impeding the truth.
Plus 1 and thank you Karen for sharing that
That sounds like harrowing experience Karen. Thanks for sharing. I’m glad Gemma is airing these cases again. People such as Raonaid deserve justice even if it does take 30 years.
That is absolutely heart breaking
I’m sorry for what you went through.
Thanks for sharing for story , we never get to hear about this side of things and it’s an eye opener.
I remember at the time my dad told me he had a conversation with a guard in Dun Laoghaire about the case. I think my dad was worried for my sister and myself! He told me the guard told him that Raonaid (advance apologies) asked for it with her behaviour! I remember being so shocked about this comment and I think my poor ol dad was shocked too!
Yes, it seemed there was a bit of that feeling alright. Not so sensitive to think it as a guard, to say it to all that stop in and chat is certainly crossing lines! Im not surprised to hear that at all though sadly.
Thanks for sharing your story with us. I’m sure it wasn’t easy.
Can I ask you a question, but please don’t respond in a way that could get the post deleted.
Do you think you know who killed Roanaid? Obviously, we don’t want you to mention any names here – I’m just interested to know if people close to the crime know who did it or think they know who did it.
And, related to this, has Gemma been in contact with you?
that part of dun laoghaire is actually quite seedy. drugs are available for purchase in pubs less than 500 metres from the garda station and nothing ever happens. go figure. I was working in the area when raonaid was murdered.I hope they catch who did it.
Yeah, Silchester Park and the area beside Glenageary shops is a real Ghetto…. 200 meters further down the road and your into Dalkey, described by some as Dublins very own Compton.
There were literally hundreds of people interviewed by the police in this case, I for one know of two who are rather unhinged to say the least. There was no shortage of suspects and every year some new line of inquiry emerges with previously unexplored evidence coming to light. We all hope that some day justice is served, but to suggest conspiracy and cover up everytime a murder goes unsolved in this country is just something Gemma O’Doherty does. The police force in this country are certainly somewhat unsophisticated but they’re not all blathering stupid morons either. If O’Doherty has some relevant info or evidence then she should go to the guards and lobby some senior political figures, im sure they’d love to close this case and see justice prevail. So tired of ambiguous journalism.
You’re clearly a cop or an establishment shill.
O’Doherty is dogged in her investigation of unsolved murders and political corruption. She does and has done all you suggest above and is hindered and harrassed by people like you, who prefer to maintain a corrupt and unjust society that favours a tiny minority of circle jerkers. All those who engage if cover ups and protecting people from prosecution are scumbags, no better than drug dealers.
“Establishment shill.” In Tish’s world nobody could possibly disagree with Tish unless paid to do so.
Can you not make your perfectly valid point without making yourself look ridiculous first?
Do you think shills do not exist, and have never posted on BS?
The existence of shills does not make Digs a shill and does not grant Tish with supernatural shill-spotting powers.
You don’t need supernatural powers to question the motives of someone that criticises an investigative journalist.
Nobody questioned Digs’ motive. The immediate reaction was that since Digs is offering a different viewpoint then Digs is being paid to do so by the esablishment.
Are we expected to believe that the establishment want to shut down Gemma O’Doherty’s investigation and think that the best way to do that is through a comment on Broadsheet?
“Nobody questioned Digs’ motive.”
Yeah they did; “You’re clearly a cop *or* an establishment shill.”
“Are we expected to believe that the establishment want to shut down Gemma O’Doherty’s investigation and think that the best way to do that is through a comment on Broadsheet?”
Of course because the logical implication of Digs being a shill is that everything he says is being directed and that his posts on BS make up the entire strategy of the “establishment”.
Yeah they did; “You’re clearly a cop *or* an establishment shill.”
That’s not questioning his motives. That’s a statement. It’s Tish making a straight out ludicrous claim to counter the possibility that someone might think differently.
Pedantry isn’t a good look. Tish thinks that Digs has an ulterior motive for his posts. That is completely understandable given his attack on an investigative journalist which included the utterly fatuous suggestion that she should go to the police. Your need to dismiss the accusation out of hand isn’t any better than the accusation itself.
@MoyestWithExcitement. That’s twice you’ve questioned my “motives” for being critical of an “investigative journalist”. Are journalist the new clergy or something? Are they beyond reproach? I simply don’t give a rats arse about Gemma O Doherty’s offerings. I’m not a fan, is that ok? I think the profession of journalism has largely disappeared down the toilet and that lots of offerings are of poor quality and research. Just look at her former stable mates investigative prowess here:
Now that’s some ” investigative journalism” right there for ye….
“I simply don’t give a rats arse about Gemma O Doherty’s offerings.”
You seem pretty opinionated on her for someone you don’t give a rats arse about. And now you’re trying to sully her name by citing the work of completely different person. Nah, you’ve definitely got an ulterior motive.
Dig, are you a cop?
@MoyestWithExcitement I was simply trying to demonstrate the lack if quality players in the Irish “investigative journalism” field. Here’s another,
Tell me, when you’re all grown up MoyestWithExcitement , do you wanna be a serious journalist? Pulitzer type? There’s something a bit odd about you. On one hand you accuse people of being pedantic and on the other hand you keep quoting people??? You’d make a great arse end in a pantomime horse.
So, Digs, cop yeah?
So you’ve gone from saying O’Doherty should go to the police to saying she’s a crap journalist to saying she’s a crap journalist because another journalist in her stable wrote a crap piece to saying Irish journalism in general is crap because of a different journalist again wrote a crap piece. So you’ve an ulterior motive and you’re really *really* dimwitted.
“So, Digs, cop yeah?”
Considering the hilarious stupidity in his last post, I’d say yes.
Cool story bro.
Ok, thanks Tish, my mistake… Thanks for clearing my opinion up. I’ll try harder to rate the great Gemma O’Doherty in future. Like the Independant, I too would like to apologise unreservedly for defaming her great name. Please accept my apology Tish. Of course the establishment and authorities are hiding something and want this case to drag on and on with no respite for her family and at a cost to the taxpayer.
“A key suspect in the murder of Dublin teenager Raonaid Murray has been shielded for almost 17 years due to Garda misconduct during the original investigation, a source close to the case has alleged.”
A source close to the case has what?
So, are you a cop then?
Inde-pedant you say?
I would not claim conspiracy or cover up. I would merely claim that the way in which all involved were treated or handled and the attitudes that seemed to be held hindered the gain of useful information and or evidence that now is lost to memories and time.
You don’t understand what either of those words mean.
Raonaid’s friends gave the names to the guards of people who fell out with her and nothing was written down.
Raonaid’s friends gave the name of the person or persons with knife fixations to the police and nothing was done.
Local people at the time including my Aunt and Uncle went to the police with concerns about somene who was always someone you told your teenage daughters in that area to stay well away from
Guards in that area said to more than one person that she probably deserved it….
There have been rumours for years about a cover up to hide a bungled investigation where the “overstretched” local plods were too unresourced to investigate.
So explain the following to me……
(and you can use small words and type slowly because I might be a bit thick here)
Why do you think they will pay any attention now to a journalist known for exposing their shortcomings? Do you think they will hug her to their bosom and write down everything in triplicate using italic script? Do you think they will act on a word she tells them in private? How do you know she has not already tried that route and is now going public due to their indifference?
I agree with Digs. Using unnamed sources gives the entire piece no credibility. Its either hearsay or basic fiction. Before you ask, No, I’m not a “cop” or any type of civil servant.
No. You’re Digs under a different username.
What logic did you use to come up with that conclusion? Also do you have a response to my comment regarding the credibility of the argument or are you just going to blow us all away with your wisdom and intellect by assuming that anyone that contradicts this article is a Garda?
Jesus, is this the first piece of journalism you have read?
Well done Gemma O’Doherty, an excellent article. Equally well done to Karen. I can’t help but draw some comparisons to a recent story featured on Broadsheet regarding a neighbouring area. I hope Karens words encourage others who have a story to tell in relation to either article to consider sharing it with someone. The obvious problem is though, who do you go to in a situation like this? Maybe if there was such an avenue, one without bias and where confidentiality was assured, people would make use of it and a lot of pain and suffering would be averted. Again, great work both of ye.
Karen, yes you are right, you and your friends most definitely should not have been treated in that unsympathetic and hostile manner. Sorry for your loss and the pain you must have suffered at the time, especially to lose a friend in such a way. Talk about the police adding insult to injury. Rest in Peace Raonaid, gone but not forgetten.
We need a specialist unit seperate from the Guards to properly investigate
the crimes and the Guards, what has been highlighted by Gemma O’Doherty
over the years is enough to set the alarm bells running.
What in the name of god are you talking about?
I think he’s suggesting that we should get some actual policemen to do the job, rather than guards.
Jesus. Rotten to the core and the likes of Gemma O’Doherty get hounded.
It’s a great little country.
Great piece Gemma. Good luck in getting this investigated.
And fair play Karen for sharing your story
I recall a woman who lived in the area at the time saying the Gardai there more-or-less regarded families as self-regulating entities. The same woman’s father used to regularly beat her mother; Gardai would be called – blood on the walls-type scenarios – but they would turn around and leave on discovering it was a ‘domestic’.
FFS Gemma, stop using “They” for a single person. Use He or She or “the person”/individual
I agree, narrowing down the suspect’s identity to 50% of the population hardly leaves anyone open to accusations of defamation.
It’s not 50% of the population.
It’s probably not even 50% of the people who knew her.
If,from the whole article, the only thing you’re outraged about is grammatical context, then the fantasy world of gaming or whatever you’re up to in front of that screen, has overtaken reality for you. Turn off the PC like a good lad, get out and about and interact with real people for a while to see can any bit of empathy or humanity be reinstated.
Unlike you I don’t get off on the grief of others additionally I find wallowing in conspiracy theories to be in poor taste
They’ve known who it was from week one. The oul lad worked in Dun Laoghaire, knew the Gards well from coming to his place of work. They told him they didn’t have the evidence. But anyway, they knew who it was and now everyone knows that, at last. Desperate for the family and friends.
Can you tell me who it was ?
If not, why are you entitled to you and I’m not?
If I recall correctly, the guards brought someone into Shankill Garda Station for questioning. The story doing the rounds soon after was that the Guards knew who it was but evidence was lost – either by accident or design.
Irish police are not there to protect and safeguard the public. They are there to protect and safeguard the wealth and interests of business and political elites, like in most underdeveloped countries where democratic institutions are consistently undermined by those who claim to represent the people. That’s why most cops are grunts who take orders in return for a blind eye being turned towards their own illegal activities. Honest cops who join up, very soon realise this.
Conspiracy driven bullpoo.
There are plenty of guards who could care less about safeguarding the wealth and interests of business and political elites. No doubt your immediate reaction to this is that I’m some sort of shill but the simple truth is that I know guards who spend their days beating their heads against brick walls trying to get scumbags locked up for theft from and assault of the public. Despite the judical system releasing the scumbags over and over the guards put on the uniform and try again because they give a sh1t.
“Conspiracy driven bullpoo.”
Sorry, no. The idea that the police protect the people the top from the people at the bottom is not ‘conspiracy driven’ anything. It’s an opinion based on observation of their behaviour and society in general. It is not an implication that there is an illuminati. It is not an implication that each individual police officer is handed a book of secrets when they get accepted into the force. That you personally know some cops who aren’t total baxtards does not counter the notion that police forces, the world over, protect those who rule society from those they rule over. Case in point; Ferguson MI.
Observation of garda behaviour would presumably include a trip to the courts or at least a perusal of the court reports in the popular press where countless examples of criminals being arrested and charged for crimes against people “at the bottom” can be found. For every Ferguson MI there are hundreds of examples of scumbags being caught and charged. For every Raonaid Murray there are several Joe O’Reillys and Graham Dwyers. When the weight of evidence is that the gardaí are arresting drug dealers, muggers, rapists and burglars on a daily basis then the notion that the gardaí are there to protect those who rule society from those they rule over, rather than protecting the law abiding from criminals, is clearly driven by some sort of prejudice.
“When the weight of evidence is that the gardaí are arresting drug dealers, muggers, rapists and burglars”
I’m not sure how that’s supposed to be a counter to the notion that the police protect the upper echelons of society from the bottom of it. Not too many muggers and burglars in Dalkey.
You really can’t see how the day to day activities of the gardaí having nothing to do with protecting those who rule society from those they rule over challenges the notion that the gardaí exist to protect those who rule society from those they rule over?
Maybe go and think about it for a while.
So Joan Burton isn’t bringing Gardaí with her for protection while out canvassing?
I’m talking macro, you’re responding in micro. That the Gardaí arrest shoplifters is, if anything, evidence of what I’m saying as opposed to the opposite.
Arresting shoplifters is evidence of gardaí tackling crime. Do you consider shopkeepers to be the upper echelons of society?
I consider the owners of Dunnes and M&S and Tesco and the likes to be in the upper echelons, yes.
So when they arrest someone shoplifting from Dunnes it’s evidence of them oppressing the lower classes but when they arrest someone shoplifting from Murray’s Local Store it’s not? Clearly your preception of their actions is tainted by your own subconscious need to back up your pre-existing theory about their role as protectors of the rich from the poor.
“but when they arrest someone shoplifting from Murray’s Local Store it’s not?”
Again, I’m talking macro and you’re responding in micro. “Every single incident of shoplifting now is recorded as a crime. Whether it is a lipstick or it is a €400 jacket, it goes in as a crime,” http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/retailers-call-for-legislation-amid-rise-in-shoplifting-in-dublin-1.2375262
“Clearly your preception of their actions is tainted by your own subconscious”
And you responding with anecdotes about cops you know personally definitely shows your position here isn’t tainted by your own subconscious of course.
I never said my opinion wasn’t driven by my personal experience. I’m in no doubts that my experience has helped form my opinion. That’s just common sense.
How can you claim to be talking macro when saying that arresting someone for shoplifting in Dunnes is the gardaí protecting the upper classes? That seems pretty micro to me.
I’m not sure what you intend to prove from your link. Are you in favour of a legal system that only counts some crimes as crimes? Should people being targetted by criminals not seek harsher penalties as a deterrent?
“How can you claim to be talking macro when saying that arresting someone for shoplifting in Dunnes is the gardaí protecting the upper classes?”
I also said Tesco and M&S. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was talking about large chain stores in general. Again, I was talking in macro and you’re responding in micro.
“I’m not sure what you intend to prove from your link.”
I’m not proving anything on a blog while I’m in work. I’m providing *evidence* that the police protect the top from the bottom. Criminalising people for stealing a lipstick is *evidence* of that.
Oh, do the gardaí make the laws now?
Who, in your opinion, is it OK to shoplift from? At what value does shoplifting become worthy of a the label crime?
“Oh, do the gardaí make the laws now?”
Yeah, the police don’t need a new law to change how they record the theft of a lipstick. Good man.
“Who, in your opinion, is it OK to shoplift from?”
“At what value does shoplifting become worthy of a the label crime?”
Yes, I misread the article. Mea culpa.
“However, retailers also say they do not report most incidents as they tend to involve the theft of small items such as cups of coffee or cans of Coke.
“If you were to do that for every time you caught somebody, you’d be on the phone to Store Street non-stop,” said John Caulwell, who owns a Spar outlet on O’Connell Street.
Mr Caulwell said he estimates staff at his shop stop about six people a day attempting to steal items. ”
That’s from your link above by the way. Clearly the move to report all reported shop lifting as a crime was driven by the number of incidents. Bizarrely just letting people away with it didn’t seem to be acting as a deterrent. So how many times do you think people should be allowed shoplift before they earn themselves a criminal record?
I prefer to judge each case by its own merits and take into account the unique personal circumstances of the offender before deciding what action to take against him or her unlike our Glorious Leaders who think we should view shoplifters in the same vein as “drug dealers, muggers, rapists and burglars” because, of course, poor people are scum. Well done for helping them push that message.
So, just to clarify are all shoplifters poor people or are all poor people shoplifters?
Of course judging each case on its merits would include deciding when to escalate it from a telling off to calling the gardaí and, on the indivdual garda’s part, when to issue a caution and when to follow the full charging process. Do you have evidence that this doesn’t happen? Of course you don’t. You don’t need evidence. Evidence is micro but the fanciful oppression theories you deal in are macro.
“So, just to clarify are all shoplifters poor people or are all poor people shoplifters?”
Yep. I definitely said one of those things. Oh wait, no I didn’t.
“Do you have evidence that this doesn’t happen?”
Where did I say that doesn’t happen?
Do you even read what you post?
“we should view shoplifters in the same vein as “drug dealers, muggers, rapists and burglars” because, of course, poor people are scum. ”
So I ask again, are all shoplifters poor people or are all poor people shoplifters?
“I prefer to judge each case by its own merits and take into account the unique personal circumstances of the offender before deciding what action to take against him or her unlike our Glorious Leaders”
So, since you don’t believe this is what is already happening, where’s your evidence?
“Do you even read what you post?”
I do, yeah. You seem to to be having severe difficulties understanding it though. Accusing those who want to demonise shoplifters because they think poor people are scum is not a statement that I believe all poor people are shoplifters or all shoplifters are poor people. That’s such a terrible display of reasoning on your part I’m actually embarrassed for you.
“So, since you don’t believe this is what is already happening, where’s your evidence?”
Huh? You’re literally making zero sense now.
OK, I’ll spell it out for you because you’re clearly not paying attention to what you’re typing.
Firstly, if you say we are “to view shoplifters in the same vein as muggers”… “because poor people are scum” then how are you not saying that shoplifters are poor people?
Secondly, if you want each case to be judged on its merits then you are suggesting that this is not currently the case so where is your evidence that each case is not currently judged on its merits?
Oh wow. This is legit funny.
“Firstly, if you say we are “to view shoplifters in the same vein as muggers”… “because poor people are scum” then how are you not saying that shoplifters are poor people?”
Did I say that? Really? Let’s look at the first part of that sentence which you’ve left out for some reason;
“our Glorious Leaders who think we should view shoplifters in the same vein as “drug dealers, muggers, rapists and burglars” ”
I said it was our *Glorious Leaders* who *want* us to think that shoplifters are in the same category as rapists. Did you not think I’d go back and get the rest of that sentence? How? That’s just crazy. Also, see the “drug dealers, muggers, rapists and burglars” bit? You wrote that.
Also, I was implying that most shoplifters are dirt poor. That does not mean ALL shoplifters are poor or ALL poor people are shoplifters. Did you have pints for lunch or something?
“so where is your evidence that each case is not currently judged on its merits?”
Have you already forgotten about the link I provided? Jesus Christ this is incredible.
The link you provided where the shopkeepers said they don’t call the gardaí every time because sometimes the items are of such small value? No, I haven’t forgotten that. Nor have I forgotten that individual gardaí have discretion which, combined with the shopkeeper’s reluctance to report every incident means that cases are being judged on their merits.So, even ignoring garda discretion, the very thing you say you would prefer to see happening is happening as evidenced by the link you posted to prove that it wasn’t. You’re not very good at this, are you?
It’s nice that you’re trying to qualify your comment now but you equated shoplifters with being poor people. Yes, you quoted something I said within that statement and yes you were trying to claim that those running the country believe poor people are scum but you were the one who equated shoplifting with poor people.
“You’re not very good at this, are you?”
At what? Following the disjointed insanity you’re posting? No, I’m not.
“but you equated shoplifters with being poor people….but you were the one who equated shoplifting with poor people.”
Uh huh. Did you miss this bit from my last post? ‘Also, I was implying that most shoplifters are dirt poor.’ The next sentence, just FYI, was ‘That does not mean ALL shoplifters are poor or ALL poor people are shoplifters.’ Well done for telling me what I’ve already said. You certainly got me there.
As I said, it’s nice that you’re now qualifying your statement. It’s just a pity that it took your prejudice being highlighted for you to do so.
I’ll take your lame attempt at redirection as acceptance that you did indeed post a link that udermined the point you were trying to make. Luckily this is just the internet and ultimately meaningless so don’t let the embarrassment occupy your mind over the weekend. Nobody really cares.
“As I said, it’s nice that you’re now qualifying your statement.”
Buddy, it was an implication, not a statement. I was implying that most shoplifters are poor people. You took this as a *statement* that either ALL poor people are shoplifters or vice versa. That is so monumentally stupid, I had to explain it you further. I don’t know why you want to embarrass yourself further by highlighting this but ok.
“I’ll take your lame attempt at redirection as acceptance that you did indeed post a link that udermined the point you were trying to make.”
Well of course you’d take it like that. You’re after demonstrating that you’re utterly mental.
No sorry, you didn’t imply it. You just out and out said that shoplifters were poor people. All this “I was implying some of them” stuff is some fine backpedalling but it is backpedalling none-the-less.
Since we’re on the topic of your prejudice against the poor, can you provide any evidence at all to back up your newly-qualified claim that “most shoplifters are poor people”?
Ok pal. An implication is a statement in your insane world. Whatever you say. And I have absolutely no evidence that most shoplifters are mostly poor. They’re actually mostly Trinity students.
An implication is a conclusion that can be drawn from something though it is not explicitly stated. Your statement was explicit leaving no doubt about the conclusion that you believe shoplifters are poor people. Now you’ve back-pedalled and, without evidence beyond your own prejudice, stated that you meant most shoplifters are poor people. Your ad hominem comments about my sanity won’t change these simple facts.
Is this Jim Corr?
there’s a lot of speculation in ms o’Doherty’s report. classic Irish crime reporting.
Same officer over my case who went on to conduct a smear campaign against me in the media. He was friends with my father the man who abused me and often went for walks on the pier with my father while supposedly investigating him. He was also friends with the three police officers who abused me and behind my back nick named me “The fantasist” while actively investigating my case. Despite many complaints to have him removed from the case because of a conflict of interest and his open admittance to being my father’s friend the Commissioner and his bosses at Dunleary left him on the case until he retired then passed away.
I was also treated with contempt Karen and understand exactly what you are saying.
He regularly told me he would do his best for me and if he couldn’t get convictions I would just have to learn to live with it while behind my back he was laughing at me the mother of Ireland youngest murder victim.
I have often felt pain for Raoinaids family knowing that their daughters murder was being investigated by the same man who was given free reign to wreak havoc ony already troubled life. And that no matter how I complained I would be seen as a nuisance rather than being seen as a victim of some of the worse child abuse in Ireland.
When my sister rang him to report my father for abusing her he said to her that he and my father went back a long way and were good friends so he couldn’t tale her allegations. Although the murder and abuse case was in his department and he was over looking it he refused to take her allegations or to signpost her on to another department.
Less than 3 weeks later she ended her life and he imposed a media blackout on her death and despite her leaving a 35 page suicide note outlining the abuse which she addressed to Eamon O’Rielly with a note of my phone number asking him to contact me to arrange her funeral he did not contact me and astonishingly did NOT send the suicide note to the DPP or even interview my father about the abuse.
The note also outlined how my two younger brothers were also abused by my father and another family member and that famity member was not questioned either.
This was a muder inquiry and that’s how he conducted himself. My two brothers also ended their lives and their deaths were treated with the same contempt.
Sorry for hogging this thread and I do not want to distract from the seriousness of Raoinaids case. But I have wanted to say this for a long time. To make people aware that there was certainly a climate of do as you like or investigate who you feel like investigating in Dunleary.
My case is the Cynthia Owen of the Dalkey House of Horrors and it can be searched for in Broadsheet by typing my name. I have a Facebook page Sindy Theresa Murphy my childhood name and a blog http://www.noleenbetrayed42years.blogspot.com
Thanks for posting Cynthia. Your horrendous case sprung to mind immediately upon reading Gemma’s piece, & Kate’s post.
I hope you too get justice. I’m sure these people will get their comeuppance.
A game of “fact or fiction” is appropriate after reading this article. Its littered with the usual vague tabloid terms such as ” a source close to the investigation”, “its alleged” or “its believed”. There is no factual evidence that suggests that this case was mishandled. All that’s reported is hearsay and opinions from unnamed “sources”. Does the Journalist who wrote it expect it to be taken seriously without any credible evidence of misconduct? I think its unfair on Ms Murrays family for their daughters tragic death to be used by a journalist to further her obvious Vendetta against An Garda Siochana. Publishing conspiracy theories is just adding to the pain and suffering already being felt by Ms Murrays family and friends. Shame on you Gemma O’Doherty.
Did you read my comment close to the top? Whether or not the article contains the correct language I will confirm from my personal experience that she is not far from a truth that I have experienced first hand and perhaps the implication that there is a level of misconduct on some level will get people to think about the way in which these investigations are carried out. Its hard to define misconduct, it doesn’t always mean a bunch of evil guys sitting in a room burning evidence, I wont touch on that now as theres a whole other book to be written on that in Ireland. It can simply be the attitudes in which you communicate with the humans involved. There is often unfortunately some kind of a psychology in being part of the guards that sometimes neglects to treat the people they question as humans in the full sense. How could they extract the correct information and evidence from people going through extremely tough and traumatic situations if the people questioned did not feel comfortable with their treatment? Its not a black and white situation, the handling of a case like this, but it seems basic common sense that in order to ever achieve justice in whatever sense solving a case would be, that more of a level of trying to understand the people you question, through a more sensitive attitude to them and the situation they are part of should be focused on. I know its easy to jump at people that imply they don’t much like the guards but remember that a lot of the time, they may not like us, and this attitude can’t help when it comes to fairly safeguarding people equally. its not my job or Gemma’s or anyone else who expressed negative opinion in any form to like the police and really whether any of us do or don’t doesn’t matter as they are paid as their job to find truth, and having attitudes that hinder getting to the truth is certainly not professional, in any case, not just this but in many. I won’t even get into how damaging that same way of thinking and handling people can be on individuals own future and mental health, in many many cases and inquiries. For now on this point i’ll leave it to the literal, the efficient collection of supporting evidence can not have been helped much by the way they already perceived, judged and treated those that would have been around her in the times that she socialised, from my feelings, having been involved.
No I didn’t read your comment. I was commenting solely on This article and its contents. I think it’s unfair on Raonaid Murray family that stories or theories that lack any fact or evidence is being used to explain her awful death.
Well if you read her comment you would have seen that she is offering a first hand account of some of the attitudes & behaviour of Gardaí towards Raonaid after her death, & towards her friends also.
You say you are not a Garda, and I think it is very fair to assume Gemma has her sources, going by her track record. As far as vendettas go, it would not be unthinkable for the Gardaí to be holding a vendetta against her, as the Gardaí track record with vendettas of their own, and cover ups for that matter, are not brilliant.
How do you know for instance that Raonaid’s family are not assisting Gemma with her investigations? You have not provided any factual evidence for your own point of view, and you are entitled to it, but people can make their own mind up.
@Fergus in the opening paragraph it has the line “a source close to the investigation alleged”.
Who is this source? How do they know this?
Unless Gemma can provide this then her Article is meaningless.
Plus surely the Murray family should be made aware of the origins of this piece of evidence if it is true. There’s no reference in the Article that Gemma spoke to the family about this. I find that deeply disrespectful and insensitive.
I didn’t provide any facts on the case so I don’t need to produce evidence.
Maintream media generally go all out when it comes to anything related to Garda Misconduct. Think back to the mess in Donegal about 10 years back. Then you have the penalty points scandal, the situation in the Cavan/Monaghan station. They’re just to name a few. The arguments Gemma is putting forward in the Raoniad Murray case our very similar to that of Mary Boyle. I don’t buy this notion that the Gardaí or Government ignored evidence in relation to Mary Boyle. I’m of the opinion that they’ve listened to what Mary Boyle’s sister had to say but were able to rule out on the evidence that they’ve collected since the case first broke. Now as I said, That’s just my opinion. Bear in mind that its 40 years since Mary Boyle has gone missing, at least two generation of Gardaí have come and gone since then. Why would the modern day Guard feel the need to cover up for the same a member of the force 40 years ago!!!
Even with Raonaid Murrays case, I’m guessing a lot of the senior officers are retired since 1999. Again, if new evidence came to light or if there was a case of misconduct, then why would todays Detective or Senior Officer cover up for a retired member? Solving a cold case of that nature would look very well on anybody’s CV.
Mr D. You’re a cop and you’re also Mr. Digs above. Best advice for you is examine your conscience.
@ Not a cop. So if you disagree with G O’Doherty then that makes you “a cop”? That’s a bit of an idiotic response. Is it possible for you to actually counter argue any of my points? Nobody has yet to challenge anything that If posted only to call me “a cop”. Doesn’t really reflect well on you or anybody you thinks this article has any truth in it.
She would be 34 now, probably married with kids and all is lost.
Condolonces to her parents….very tough.
Equally, she could be single and childless and no less a loss.
@Mr D, don’t you have any tax discs to check? Oh wait, it’s a bit wet out. Tomorrow is another day.
@Lilly, I don’t work for the Revenue commissioners or I’m a Garda. Stupid comment for you to make.
“0bvious vendetta against An Garda Siochana”
The only people who refer to the Gardai in this manner are members of the force. The vendetta is clearly being waged against Gemma O’Doherty – not the other way around. Such was your rush to defend your fellow cops, you didn’t even bother to read a first-hand account of how ham fisted the investigation was. I think it’s safe to assume you’ve said ‘lose tha hattitude’ once or twice in the line of duty.
“The only people who refer to Gardai this way are members of the force” ??
Really Lilly? Is that an unwritten rule that I’m not aware of? I disagree with what Gemma O’Doherty writes so that must make me a member?? Such BS!!!!
Well I’m not. I wouldn’t want to be either. But go ahead, believe what you want. The bottom line is that Raonaid Murrays Killer is still at large. To find the murderer of this awful crime, the Gardai will need factual evidence. If Gemma has this ( or of any other crime) then she should report it immediately. If not, she should have more respect for the victims and their families.
But we both know that this won’t happen. Gemma will continue writing non-factual stories and people like you will continue to read them & believe every word. Not because it might lead to convicting the killer, but it’s a way for you and Gemma to try and smear The Gardai, government and other authorities that you don’t like.
Not for one second do you stop and think how this might impact on the victims family. So heartless of you.
Are you coming on or off shift at 4am Mr D?!! Only joking, I believe you. The point of this piece presumably is there’s no point in anyone reporting anything in this case as it doesn’t fit the agenda to investigate. This ties in with Karen’s comments about how Ronaid’s friends were treated at the time. I do not believe Gemma O’Doherty is waging some vendetta, nor do I believe she makes things up.
@Lilly Feeding the 9 month old at 4am. Only night duty I’d ever do. I just think there’s no credibility to Gemma article if we don’t know the sources of her info. Mainstream media would be all over this if they thought there was any truth in it.
“Mainstream media would be all over this if they thought there was any truth in it.”
Like they are with the Cynthia Owen case yeah?
While we’re on Gemma Doherty, what about the Mary Boyle case. She is Ireland’s youngest missing person, and her twin believes she knows who is responsible. An Senior Garda has said there was/ is a cover up going on and in the days after the disappearance a politician called Gardaí (or An Garda Síochana as you like to call them) and asked for a certain individual to be ruled out of enquiries.
Gemma is helping her twin Ann Doherty while she is being ignored by Gardaí & fobbed off by Enda Kenny, and I for one think she does great work, and is a lone voice in a lot of instances.
There are plenty of bad eggs in the Gardaí. With so many resources, government members, and otherwise good members of the force protecting these bad eggs, we are lucky to have a journalist who is not afraid to go after the truth. It is good that we have somebody who is brave enough to carry out a justifiable vendetta against Garda misbehaviour.
Yeah Poppy, don’t you know that many on Broadsheet hate children and think marriage is uncool. Inconsiderate comment to make.
Get a life Peter, tall order I know. I love children and believe a good marriage is a blessing but single people without children are equally valuable and just as sorely missed when they’re gone. The loss depends on the individual, not on their marital status and offspring.
Karen, i fully appreciate your comments and the horror and shock you felt at this awful crime. The garda present at the crime scene will have felt utter revultion at the crime scene. Unfortunately they have to be clinical , cant show emotion , they may have felt like giving you a hug but have to remain detached. Thats their training. Imagine garda present at a youngster in a fatal accident from speeding and the car wrapped around a tree. The following day they catch a youngster speeding at exact spot. They will give that youngster a verbal roasting and he wont realize that these very officers had to call to a shocked distressed family to break the tragic news the day before. The garda see terrible horrors and ive no doubt it impacts on them as well. Even dealing with shocked family on point of collapse is deeply upsetting to garda. They are human. But all good wishes to you Karen.
Doesn’t excuse Gardaí suggesting the victim had it coming.
thanks. I have tried to remain diplomatic due to understanding the bias I could have and given them as much benefit of the doubt as possible but I still believe they used the case for their own smaller agendas and treated people in a judgemental and dismissive manner. These things are indeed from the fact that they are human too but I fully believe the gaurds in general in all aspects of their job need a major attitude overhaul. This goes from not just the treatment of these major cases but even down to the way they talk to people at street level day to day. I believe many use the position they have to behave in a way that comes across largely as bully boy tactics. I don’t think it would do any major harm to the training of guards to focus a little more on equal treatment of people and how to fairly and correctly use the power they have without bias. I think its fair to say that a chunk of people feel protected by them while another chunk of people believe them to be frightening potential enemies due to no reason but who they are, where they live, who is in their families, what they look like, past bad experiences or a large number of other reasons. A better attitude would certainly do them no harm!
Saddened For Jimmy Murray in all this,, a Brilliant Teacher & a Man who devoted his Life to Education as well as Family ! I’m a result of His Education & greatest facts himself & Others taught including the Bro’s was Respect,, if able & Question everything & Analyse yourself , don’t 100% trust others reasonings & this stays with me 32 years later !! Saddened of Course about Death of Raoinaid ,, But also for Jimmy , who not only lost a Daughter but also An Institution & many Fine Folk who emerged over the Many Years remember that !!! Maybe Jimmy should have Run Templemore & there would have been a Better result for all Concerned ??
I’ve always thought it was a guy that done it. There was a soft copy book that was free with one of the newspapers back in the 2000s I think which analysed the case and suspects very well.
One suspect that the book implied was likely to have done it was a male similar age 17/18 they had a recreated pencil drawing of him and all. He’d been pestering her for some time and the book suggests this was an outburst from being rejected. The drawing creeped me out a bit as looked somewhat like a guy who got expelled from my secondary school in 1998 for stabbing someone who had bullied him in the yard. I was in his junior cert yr. He went into the principals office with bloody knife and confessed.
I could easily be wrong as picture not exactly clear.
Karen, did you know of this guy who was supposedly following her around pestering her, he was small and from stillorgan area maybe. This sounds like a cover up on part of garda to be honest, would love justice for her least she deserves the case always stands out as I was 17 aswell at the time!
Username 10…….you should go to garda with that. Today.