Our Destiny Awaits

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martin-adams-1

dan

From top: Gerry Adams and Micheal Martin; Dan Boyle

Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin.

They were made for each other.

Dan Boyle writes:

I think we may have been putting Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil under too much pressure to consummate their relationship. Fianna Fáil could have a more obvious suitor in Sinn Féin.

Think of it. Two parties on similar trajectories. Each claiming to itself the republican mantle. A more recent split than that of the treaty/anti-treaty conflict, and one which is capable of more obvious repair.

This requires a slight imaginative leap.

The self titled Sinn Féin of today is not the Sinn Féin of 1926 from which De Valera took its brightest and best, as well as the bulk of its political infrastructure, when he was founding Fianna Fáil.

Present day Sinn Féin is a breakaway from the rump that De Valera left behind.

That collective grouping in claiming a Sinn Féin nomenclature caused upset among the majority from the first Dáil, that had subsequently supported the Anglo Irish treaty.

So the Sinn Féin of 2016 is a breakaway from a rump of a minority that had lost the essential argument on the founding of this State.

But fair dues to the party that should be more rightly known the H-Block party, they have assumed and rebranded the title well.

The party has copied the Fianna Fáil playbook just as well. Like FF, in it is beginnings, its leader presents himself as statesmanlike and distant from violent activity. His chief lieutenant, like Sean Lemass of FF, is more candid and open about his use of violence.

The Sinn Féin of today, like the FIanna Fáil of then, saw the need to establish a strong local political infrastructure.

Both parties, as they sought to establish themselves, have experienced irritation on their left flanks from those seeking to keep them in a philosophical cul de sac, away from their more comfortable political destination of populism.

Although it can’t be stressed enough that Paul Murphy, the 21st century irritant, is no Peadar O’Donnell, a far more authentic socialist of the 1930s.

Given these symmetries why shouldn’t we ask why FF and SF are two separate parties?

Together they would be thirteen seats short of a being a single party government we thought would never again be possible.

It wouldn’t be without difficulties. Who would be the leader? Policies would be far less of a problem as they could be constantly adaptable.

The synergies would be obvious and immediate. There would be no need to hold parallel Easter, Arbour Hill or Bodenstown commemorations.

There may be a fear that merging might give an opportunity to the next largest opposition group – The Labour Party. Okay that’s not really a risk, just thought I would mention it.

The real problem would be what the name of this new merged party should be. Here I think I might be able to help. It has to be a name that looks towards the future whilst building on the past.

The new party should be called ‘Sinn Fáil – Our Destiny’. It is the party Irish politics has been crying out for.

Dan Boyle is a former Green Party TD and Senator. Follow Dan on Twitter: @sendboyle

Related: Frilly Keane: I Predict A Republican Government

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126 thoughts on “Our Destiny Awaits

  1. ollie

    Dan Boyle you get more bitter by the week. The Greens had their chance and blew it, get over it and move on.

      1. ollie

        It’s moving on Dan but are you?
        References to events 100 years ago and you seem to be stuck in the 80s when it comes to Sinn Fein.

        The world is changing Dan, embrace it.

    1. Mé Féin

      One sentence in and I had to stop. Had Mr Boil forgotten “The Vegetables” were in coalition with FF? And bankrupted the country while they were at it?
      Come on!

  2. Cot

    I’d have a lot more respect for Dan if he gave his fat pension back. He served one term in the Dail and he earns more now for that than a lot of us.

    1. Dan Boyle

      I’d much prefer a job and not be looked at differently by prospective employers because I’ve served in public life.

      1. Cot

        Well, you’re lucky that you have a pension. Many of us unemployed don’t have the luxury of a fat pension for sitting 5 years in a job.

        1. Dan Boyle

          Nine years. It’s generous but it is far less than the average industrial wage and is more akin to the minimum wage.

          1. Cot

            I don’t count your years in the Senate – that was a sinecure, plum job for not getting elected. You’ve only ever got elected once, and for that you get a 19,000 a year pension for LIFE. Incredible.

          2. Dan Boyle

            Was also elected twice to local government. Served 20 years in total. My 2002 and 2007 votes were identical. One elected me one didn’t. My 2007 vote was higher than many people who were elected to that Dáil. Seanad appointment is a constitutional position. As open to assessment as any other appointed position or of any member of the civil service.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            Yes and Dan wrote the legislation that afforded him that “fat pension” aaaaallll on his lonesome, so he did.

          4. Cot

            You get 19,000 grand a year for having been elected ONCE to the Dail. Just once. Someone presently on the minimum wage has to work a 40 hour week to get what you get at the moment for doing nothing. You just get free money. Don’t you dare compare yourself to someone WORKING on the minimum wage.

          5. Dan Boyle

            I don’t compare myself to the work. Neither do I think I was sitting for twenty years. I have been happy and proud to have served. It hasn’t been without cost, cost not always being about money.

          6. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            Cot has a very valid point there. Maybe if you served and had retired but if you are in your 30/40s why do you need to get that amount of money per year when you are able to get another job? What ‘costs’ are you covering that are on-going from your time as a politician?

          7. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            That doesn’t answer the point.

            For politicians to hold these pensions (or claim large expenses in the case of the UK) when everyone is being told there is no money is go around is one of the reasons why people have no faith in the political system. I don’t see what you did to earn it and that should be a conversation that is had, especially by a Green politician, who tend to led the way on these issues of fairness.

          8. Dan Boyle

            I’d prefer a better system. There have been subsequent changes. But I continue to make a contribution. I don’t see myself as a burden to the State, at least no more than average.

          9. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            “Everyone else is doing it so I will too, what can i do?”

            Works well with politicians that one

          10. Dan Boyle

            Look Job Seeking Allowence is €9400. Rent Allowance around €6000. A medical card around €1600. All these I would otherwise qualify for. I’m not the problem here. I’m convenient for people to vent on.

          11. MoyestWithExcitement

            +1 It’s like shouting at phone jockey on €10 an hour cause you think your phone bill is too high.

          12. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            “I’m not the problem here. I’m convenient for people to vent on.”

            Yes, but then you had to expect that. Your columns vent on other politicians as well. And I;m not even venting here. It’s a valid point that I don’t think you have defended.

            I;m sure you don’t expect people to feel sorry for you but you must see the irony of politicians receiving a tidy sum when thousands of others have been forced to make huge changes to their lives because of a lack of work. That may be the rules but that is inherently unfair. To then dismiss people’s concerns about that as not a big deal because it’s not even min wage but a complete mockery of everything politicians have put people through in Ireland over the last few years, not to mention other countries. And it is a hugely telling statement, for me at least, for someone who is a Green politician to say that. It’s like something a Tory would say.. That is what you aren’t getting here and it’s these flippant comments that really p%^% people off.

            Why shouldn’t a politician go on the dole? You have contributed to that system, why is it not good enough for the political classes? If your eligible, claim it. Maybe if more politicians ended up there, you wouldn’t see the outrageous assaults on welfare driven by nothing more than some fool reading a story in the Mail about benefit cheats and marching into work to make it policy.

          13. Dan Boyle

            Some people. Obvious people. People who won’t let go. People who would be opposed to me whatever I did or said. Without structural reform empty gestures are useless. I don’t even come close to being the nub or the source of the problems of our society, however much the taunts of those who want me to be so.

          14. MoyestWithExcitement

            Primary school teachers retiring with 40 years of service get a €30,000 a year pension and an up front and tax free lump sum of, on average €90,000 a year and generally ranging from €70,000 to €150,000.

          15. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            “Without structural reform empty gestures are useless.”

            I agree but you seem unwilling to even start a conversation about the appropriateness of pensions in general. I could see you might be defensive so I have taken care to not to be personal about it. However, you seem to dismiss Cot’s initial comment as pensions being so trivial that taxpayers shouldn’t worry about their pretty little heads about them. I don’t know anything about your track record but that one comment, I find to be really quite something which is why I am interested in it. I say this as a Green voter (in other countries but still).

            No one is “taunting” you, they are calling you out on your and your party’s political decisions if anything. As it should be, you should be held to account. That is democracy is action surely.

            And to repeat myself, again, saying you aren’t the problem, that is has nothing to do with you, perpetuates the problem. This is why people don’t vote, this is why people feel politicians are out of touch, this is why people think politicians all have their snout in the trough. And if your party or any party anywhere wants to get somewhere with voters, they would take notice of that.

            Don out.

          16. Dan Boyle

            Come off it. It’s repetition of slogans in a highly personalised way. It isn’t a sincere attempt at engagement. There is huge intolerance of views that don’t co-incident with the mob mentality. I’ll continue not to take seriously opinions that are expressed anonymously.

          17. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            My attempts at engagement were genuine but you brushed them off with repeated slogans of your own.

          18. Dan Boyle

            If you want to debate pensions I’ll debate pensions. I’ve regularly talked about the need to cap pensions. The situation has already changed. What I won’t keep debating is me. There is the wider context involving higher level civil servants. When I hear as much questioning of that I will take some of these debates more seriously.
            In starting this thread you supported the views of another poster as ‘valid’ who went on to ascribe to me personally every social ill that exists in the country. When you regularly get that kind of diatribe you can then tell me what it’s like to be offended.

          19. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            Yes, I replied in support of one point that Cot made. I don’t recall that ever meaning that I now support everything he said ever especially as I haven’t read the rest of this thread. FFS, I agree with rotide sometimes!

            “If you want to debate pensions I’ll debate pensions. ”

            Well, you had that chance but instead you dodged and ignored and made funny little jokes about issues that I am and others are, quite passionate about. I have been calm and considered and at the very least expected that I would receive the same in kind, not a diatribe or anger directed at someone else.

            Sometimes I wonder what the point of even commenting politely is the response you get is the same you get for being a total knob.

          20. Dan Boyle

            Calling people knobs now constitutes debate? And yes concentrating on a single point while ignoring the wider context it’s made in is silly. The preciousness here is yours. I’ve regularly talked about this issue not just in this thread and not just with you. If I want to make my arguments with humour I’ll do so. Not responding to you in the way you want me to is your problem not mine. Keep up the name calling.

          21. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            FFS…..

            You should re-read my comment.I meant anyone commenting politely would be treated liked they were commenting like a total knob Dan, not that you were one.

            You may have commented in other threads. I don’t read them. I asked in this one. You seem to be keen on escalating this into something it never ever was or never intended to be, which I don’t understand at all. Your accusation that in supporting someone else’s point means I support everything they say is frankly bizarre and slightly paranoid. I have in no way attacked you and yet you respond in by telling me to stop with name-calling, which I have not done and then insinuating I am being precious.

            Politicians. Go figure.

          22. Dan Boyle

            Inferring is just as much as making a comment. Why even make the reference? And the crap about being a politician. I am a person with opinion not an alien being. It is about me being projected on. You are repeating far more cliches about the type of person you believe me to me than I’m exhibiting.

          23. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            “Inferring is just as much as making a comment.”

            No, it isn’t. Especially when the person never inferred anything in the first place and you just read it wrong.

            “It is about me being projected on.”
            Eh? No, it really isn’t. Paranoid mate.

          24. Dan Boyle

            Yes it is why make the reference? And agree with it. There is no distinction. The thread is crawling with personal references to me. I think they are silly and stupid. That doesn’t make me paranoid particularly as most of these comments are made anonymously.

          25. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            Seeing the word knob in a sentence and take that as being about you when it isn’t is a tiny bit paranoid. It’s not all about you, it never was!

            Now at the risk of being misinterpreted and maybe called precious again, I’ll leave you to it.

          26. Steve

            Must….get…..last…..comment…..in….to….make…..sure….I…..feel…..vindicated. There. Got it. Phew!

          27. Dan Boyle

            Inference was implying to receiving responses in kind. You weren’t referring to responses others were giving you. Would pedantic be better than precious?

        2. Cot

          No, your work hasn’t been without cost. Emigration, bankruptcy, etc., and yet you get away with 19,000 euro a year for life for not doing a tap of work. Only in a banana republic.

          1. Dan Boyle

            Yes Cot it’s all about me and if I never existed none of these would ever exist either.

          2. Cot

            You, along with your other Green Party colleagues and FF, allowed it to happen. You did nothing to prevent it. You didn’t pull out of government. The fact that you even went into government with FF (when it was riddled with corruption) is bad enough. Until you mature somewhat, until you look at your actions honestly, you’ll never realise the great harm you caused society. Giving back your pension would be an honest start.

          3. Dan Boyle

            We did not not do nothing. Within the confines we found ourselves we brought the changes we could and we did so in an equitable manner, as confirmed by the ESRI. We left government early. Leaving earlier wouldn’t have made any difference at all.

          4. Dan Boyle

            Whatever! Disagreeing is passive aggressive. The ranks of the anonymous are the holders of all wisdom. The right to abuse, challenge or question is theirs only.

          5. They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab

            lol this is a bit like listening to two alley cats riding

  3. Paul Davis

    Voting Sinn Féin is the moment that you admit you life has turned out awful and you have accepted that you are not strong enough to change yourself for the better…

  4. bisted

    …Dan, if you bothered to read even your fellow columnists on Broadsheet you’d know that Frilly envisaged just such an outcome before the last election…albeit she didn’t see a republican alliance as the appalling vista you seem to fear nor did she employ the snide and sneering tone that is your trademark.
    …talking about west brits…how did that Welsh thing go for you?

      1. Dan Boyle

        It’s satire. If you read election predictions here you would have seen mine were on the button but Frilly’s weren’t.
        Wales went reactionary voted UKIP. Green there got same vote that won four seats in Ireland.

        1. Frilly Keane

          Get over yerself Boyle

          There was nathin’ stopping you from punting a FFS F last year when the GE run up started, or even when you first started plugging yourself here

          I led
          You followed

          So that’s the Greens for ya
          They’re followers
          Not leaders

          I suspect you need that 19k
          Especially since you apparently qualify for Rent Allowance

  5. DubLoony

    Sinn Fein of today was founded in 1970, NI, very different from previous incarnations.
    But given that both FF & SF both say they are republican parties, there is a logic to his argument.
    Bertie worked hard to make them legitimate.

  6. ringusboreum

    Satire or no, is léir nách bfhuil mórán tuiscint agat ar ár dteanga dhúchais má cheapann tú go bfhuil ciall leis an ainm “Sinn Fáil “.

    1. Dan Boyle

      I know it’s not grammatical. It’s shorthand. Faux Irish has already been used – Renua. Remember them?

  7. J

    “Although it can’t be stressed enough that Paul Murphy, the 21st century irritant, is no Peadar O’Donnell, a far more authentic socialist of the 1930s.

    Thanks Dan. Had a good chuckle at this apt description of St. Paul

  8. Rob_G

    FF and SF are perfect bedfellows for one another.

    Introduce water charges => water charges become politically-toxic => become vehemently opposed to water charges.

    – replace ‘water charges’ with current political hot potato as needed.

  9. Steve

    Uh oh Dan you’ve annoyed the shinnerbots. SF HQ are going to have out in force now.

    Megatron !!! Shockwave !!! Starscream…assemble!!!!!!!!

      1. Gearóid

        I find you deeply obnoxious.

        You employ an aggressive defence strategy as follow-ups to your online musings, and are no better than any of your 2007-2011 political peers in terms of an utter lack of contrition; or even an empathetic awareness of the hurt that government caused with its deceit and cowardice. The only difference is that your unapologetics extend to social media.

        In 2007 I gave my first preference to the Green Party – moreso the party and what I felt it had in terms of civic ethics than the individual candidate. You personally were one of the main reasons I did not vote Green in 2011. Although the candidate in my constituency this year was very promising, I didn’t vote as I am emigrated in 2013 due to unemployment.

        I don’t even know why I should bother with this message. You will never understand these things.

        1. Dan Boyle

          For a start I don’t call other people obnoxious for holding views. I may consider the views themselves obnoxious.
          You’ve formed an opinion of me and I don’t expect to change that. On occasion I respond in kind because the abuse in the first instance has invariably been directed towards me.
          Unlike others who prefer to keep their heads down I choose to engage. That gives others scope to pour scorn on me. I’m subject to more abuse than I’m ever likely to give. It surprises me, but really shouldn’t, to witness the huge lack of proportion and perspective many people exhibit in social media. I’m comfortable in who I am. The least thing I am is obnoxious.

          1. A Certain Ratio

            Make that *unrepentantly* obnoxious, Gearóid.

            Your actions(or inaction) destroyed people’s lives, Dan, the very people who voted for you to make a change. Enjoy your €19k, I’ll be thinking of you when I hand over 50% of my income to perpetuate this omnishambles.

          2. Dan Boyle

            I happen to think that working with others we helped prevent a horrible situation becoming worse. Certainly unrepentant, while obviously not without regret. No one has to account for themselves to anonymous moralists. My conscience is quite clear.

          3. J

            Dan, perhaps a tad pious?
            “’I’d much prefer a job and not be looked at differently by prospective employers because I’ve served in public life.”

          4. Dan Boyle

            Not at all. I’ve found gaining regular employment difficult. Aside from a shortage of jobs, it’s been indicated to me that my political involvement has been a hindrance. Had I been involved with another political party there would be a network. Greens don’t have such a network nor would they want to have.

  10. rotide

    Not sure if this is satire or not but I have a better idea.

    AAA/PBP , the SDs and FG should defintely merge. What’s stopping them like? They’re all run by “people”, they were all voted for by the same group of people (Irish) and they all have “policies”.

    I don’t know why it hasn’t happened before now, but we should all vent our anger that it hasn’t.

  11. Andy McGowan

    That reads like Dan was on the wacky baccy.

    Seeing as Dev left SF to form a new party how are they the ‘breakaway rump’?

  12. Boabo Yaobo

    If I remember correctly, the Fianna Glasrai merger actually happened and worse still was an unmitigated disaster. I’m in constant amazement that the Green party of Ireland actually thinks it can salvage its brand as a piss poor copy of continental Green parties. The expiry date is long gone on the Irish greens, there is still a need for a real Green party in Ireland.

      1. Boabo Yaobo

        Sure, blame everything on a conspiracy when you have no reply, everyone is a shinner on the internet….oh look, my eyes have rolled backwards in to my skull.

        Here’s a roll of tin-foil, have fun making a hat to stop the shinners ;-)

        1. Steve

          Ok so we like putting people into political boxes on here. If you’re not a shinnerbot then you must then be either a FG fascist , like myself , or a crusty layabout communist.

          I’m guessing you’re not the former so tell me this baobo do you also believe that RBBs birth was foretold by a swallow which subsequently led to the appearance of a double rainbow along with the emergence of new star in space??

      1. Boabo Yaobo

        A whole two….wow! I’m sure everyone is beside themselves with worry about the assembly of the green horde of two veggies just waiting to storm Leinster house.

  13. Boabo Yaobo

    Mao killed all the swallows meaning that the rational progress of Internationalism raised the birth of RBB high upon the minds of the people of the nation who basked in his glorious generosity a sickle and a writing brush inscribed in its red flag, it has wisely led our people, revolution and country without an inch of deviation, being entirely responsible for their destiny. It made an ideological and theoretical clarification of the fact that socialism is a science and the best society in the world. It united the revolutionary parties close as one when they had been scattered by such gust of history as the frustration of socialism, and dynamically encouraged them in the struggle for rebuilding socialism. The revolutionary parties of those countries inspired by this are dynamically advancing along the road of socialism.

    PS: I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the IRA, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on the British Army, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire Armagh brigade. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of comrades across the island and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the IRA and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

  14. leesider

    The Greens don’t have the same network as other parties and you can’t find a job? I thought you were working for the Greens in Wales or some place?!

    SF have yet to go in with FF. Nor are they directly to blame for the recent financial catastrophe. Pity the greens didn’t have the backbone and make the galway race tent party go elsewhere for power sharing. They would be a bigger and better party for it today instead of its renewed irrelevance.

    SF have many faults but making jokes about how they should be called the h-block party…. Even if you don’t agree with the paramilitary prisoners who served there, many people were imprisoned there during internment who had absolutely no business near a prison. It’s very easy for us down in Cork to pass judgment about what people did in the 6 counties in the late 60s and early 70s.

    1. Dan Boyle

      A job I applied for was interviewed for. Not a job created for me. The Greens staying in government required backbone. We took our political hit. We did what we did because what we believed to be the right reasons. We did so knowing there would be a political price for doing so. Those are those who never believe otherwise. Let them. I know what my truth is.

      1. leesider

        – Did the Greens go into power with a party commonly accepted as being the most corrupt in the land? Yes.
        – Did the Greens do some good things in govt between 2007 and 2011? Yes.
        – Should the Greens have left govt earlier when public opposition to the govt continuing was so manifest? Yes.
        – Did the Greens make the financial collapse easier for the most vulnerable in society? No.
        – Are the Greens now irrelevant? Yes.
        – Are former Green powerbrokers apologetic (enough)? No.

        I voted green in 2007. I had to emigrate during the bust. I don’t particularly blame the greens for the bust itself but you would have to question their role (or lack of one) for the bank guarantee and the subsequent continuation in power. Going in in the first place was disheartening (I voted for a strong green opposition voice) but continuing to play the fiddle while rome burned was unforgiveable. Glad you have your truth though dan. History will be the judge.

        1. Dan Boyle

          No difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.
          No possibility of being in government in Ireland without FF or FG.
          Greens should have stayed in government longer. The following government was worse.
          Every budget the Greens were involved in distributed the burden progressively. Every budget of the following government was regressive (source ESRI)
          Greens took political hit they expected and have since recovered significantly – 3 Oireachtas members in 2016
          Greens have never been interested in being power brokers only in having policies implemented.

          Just because you believe in something doesn’t believe it is true.

          1. leesider

            “No difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.
            No possibility of being in government in Ireland without FF or FG.
            Greens should have stayed in government longer. The following government was worse.
            Just because you believe in something doesn’t believe it is true.”

            I’m not a member of either party but I think your own bottom line assertions is as applicable to you as it is to me. I don’t think the following govt was worse. Not much better though.
            Again, I agree that there were good things done by the greens in govt.
            My problem was in going in with FF in the first place, the bank guarantee and continuing in power despite the level of opposition to you so doing. When you facilitate corruption, you are yourself corrupt. Ye played the senior hurling and lost.

            I like both green TDs on many levels but won’t be voting green again for the foreseeable. As I said, history will note the part the greens played in the disasterous bank guarantee. The things we could have done without the bank debt…

            Can you link the ESRI source? I had not heard that substantiated. Thanks.

          2. Dan Boyle

            Here’s a reference to more progressive budgets. http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/63908/QEC2011Win_SA_Callan.pdf;jsessionid=7093A59DE48BB0B60FC8E01921DA6854?sequence=1

            Your problem is the bank guarantee. As with most people you seem to ignore that a considerable bank guarantee was already in place that would have cost the Irish state billions. It was extended to prevent capital flight. It was badly applied but some extension of the bank guarantee would have been put in place whoever was in government. Of itself the guarantee has not been the cause of our economic policies.
            In relation to FF and FG I would still prefer to go into government with FF. They are honest about their dishonesty. FG’s piety is a charade.

          3. leesider

            Shur dan that study is only from 2009 to 12? It is only budget ’12 that is mentioned as being regressive. And you said it was from the ESRI, this appears to me to be an academic article… don’t doubt its probably true but from what you said I presumed that I had missed an ESRI study that said budgets 11-15 were regressive compared to 08-10. Were you quoting such a study or were you talking through your hat when you said: “Every budget the Greens were involved in distributed the burden progressively. Every budget of the following government was regressive (source ESRI).” As you also said once Dan: Just because you believe in something doesn’t mean it’s true.

            Bank guarantee should not have been extended as far as it was. As far as I can see the greens had sweet FA input into the decision because it was a decision to be made by the big boys and ye put up with that treatment. Unbelievable.

            Couldn’t give a sugar if you prefer FG or FF. You say you would share power with people you know to be corrupt. You have already done so. I think that’s all I need to know about your politics Dan.

          4. Dan Boyle

            So being petty is what you’re about. They are the same people. This is the ESRI link https://www.esri.ie/news/distributional-impact-of-tax-welfare-and-public-service-pay-policies-budget-2015-and-budgets-2009-2015/
            The crisis started in 2008. ESRI analysis of earlier and later budgets show similar trends.
            The bank guarantee wasn’t decided at one meeting on one evening. It was a policy option for several weeks before that. Having been suggested by David McWilliams, John Gormley dealt with him on the detail of what he was proposing.
            On our perceptions of FF and FG. Yours is based on prejudice mine is based on experience. Trying looking outside the bubble.

          5. leesider

            Not being petty at all, I’m just seriously interested in comparing the two governments.

            Budget 2015 seems to be the only budget that really bears out what you’re saying here. There seems to be a pretty common trend across both govts up to budget ’15. Nothing like a bit of selective quotation. As I said, I have no allegiance to either govt.

            To be honest the bank guarantee did come down to one decision in one evening – – September 29th, 2008. I’m glad John Gormley got a run down of what a guarantee would look like but it doesn’t seem to have made a blind bit of difference to the decision that was made. Ahern and Dempsey, members of the cabinet, didn’t even know. Greens seemed even more clueless and stayed in govt afterwards anyway.

            I don’t know how you’re reading into my perception of FG or FF because I haven’t really said anything about them except calling FF incurably corrupt which you agree with and you knew that when you went into power with them. I don’t know what experience you have had with FG seeing as though you only went into power with FF. To be honest the really sad thing is that I’m sure if the opportunity arose in the morning you would go in with FG and say it’s the brave selfless thing to do for ireland’s sake…. Labour played that card as well. Yet here you are having a cut off SF who with all their problems, don’t seem to me to have the same problems with corruption at least. If Labour and Greens had stayed out of power in 07 and 11 Irish politics would look a lot differently today. It would be for the better I would say.

            I honestly don’t know what bubble you’re talking about.

            I appreciate you engaging Dan but this doesn’t do anything to convince me that what you did in 2007 and then went on to do up to 2011 wasn’t a massive shambles. More humility about your role in the greatest economic catastrope in the history of the state would be appreciated.

          6. Dan Boyle

            For feck sake will you get your history right. You’re mixing up the guarantee and the Trioka coming in. Events separated by two years. If you’re so selective about history no wonder you’re so selective about facts. You’re not alone in this. I see so many people on social media conflate these issues in order to confirm their prejudices. The myth of the Greens being at sea is part of that process. We were better informed and more on top of things than many in Fianna Fáil. I would argue that we knew what the national interest was knowing that it didn’t co-incide with our party interest.

          7. leesider

            Sorry Dan, as I said September 2008 was the bank guarantee.

            Ok the famous ahern dempsey clip is from the troika arrival but the original point stands. That clip does seem to illustrate the disconnect between cowen/lenihan and the rest of the cabinet for the whole lifetime of that govt.
            Do you think Ahern and Dempsey were any more clued in for the events of september 08? Both incidents seem to me to have been decisions made in a very short space of time rather than over a matter of weeks. I would place a bet that there were people in banks that had a better idea of the political decision to come than gormley did on the night of the guarantee. Maybe I’m wrong, who knows?!

            You obviously have more insight into what was going on than me so I take you at your word but if these decisions were shared openly by the whole cabinet then why wasn’t that made clear? If the decisions were taken across the cabinet then the greens should do a better job at letting the country know this because the majority think otherwise. Not that the greens having an input into the bank guarantee would be much to be proud of in any case. People did the best they could with the information they had at the time, I just think their best was dramatically not good enough. Cowen and Lenihan also seem to have excluded even their own party members and certainly the greens.

          8. Dan Boyle

            There were poor internal communications within Fianna Fáil. As Greens we made sure were informed and were better informed than many FF cabinet ministers.
            You don’t have to convince me that the Greens allowed a wrong narrative surround us in government!

    1. Dan Boyle

      Inches. Just inches. Some idiot breaks red light and misses me. Not that he seemed to care. I suddenly acquire some illiberal thoughts.

  15. Frilly Keane

    Tell ya sum’ting else Boyle
    If d’examiner and a few others get wind of your “H- Block Party” the Greens will ûck you out

    You are a nasty loser Dan
    Bitter
    Bratish
    And now British

    I suspect you’ll be finding yourself a lot further away from Cork in your next job

    Tiocfidh

    1. Steph Pinker

      Grow up Frilly and stop being a hypocrite, you’ve proven to be a bit of a ‘nasty loser’ yourself – or is it because Dan’s column has more comments than yours – you do obsess about your comment count, don’t you? Or is it because his piece is legible and readable, and he does actually make some valid points? You’ve shown your true colours here many times, yet, BS still publish your immature, ill-informed efforts and your snide comments towards others – it’s you who is ‘bitter’ and ‘bratish’, and narcissistic.

      1. Frilly Keane

        Wooooooo get you
        Being all boss and
        Putting me in my place
        Just like that
        N’all on your own
        Like the big bhiys

        But you must’a missed sum’ting about me Stephs
        I’m the last person around here that gives a ûck about reply counts
        Or even the contents of the comment
        Especially the latter

        But I’m only happy t’help Dan’s reply numbers
        Poor Dote
        But hey he’s finally pulled himself into the one ton club

        1. Steph Pinker

          Is that the best you can do? Throw shapes on d’internet r sum’ting similar? You say you don’t care about the contents of the comments – which you should – but, why do you go to the effort of submitting a piece every week (and then bitch if it’s not published: their gaff, their rules etc…) if you don’t give a sh*te? It’s not like you’ve anything particularly intelligent, imaginative or different to offer?

          1. Frilly Keane

            Nope
            Arseways again Strep

            Lads asked where twas
            I told ’em exactly that
            BS didn’t like it

            See Strep
            I write wtf I like
            What comes out usually depends on my mood
            Or me hormones
            The hurling
            Maybe even the weather

            I’m not desperate
            I’ve no particular agenda
            I’m not seeking a career bump
            I definitely don’t need a profile
            And I can come and go as I please

            My hands are clean

            Now g’wan and clean out your fridge or sum’ting
            There’s some Tipp lads that need worrying

            Hon’Cork!

            ( When did you ever say that Dan?)

          2. Frilly Keane

            And even more arseways Steph

            I don’t use other names

            I don’t know anyone off the site
            Or on the site
            And my BS go to is John Ryan
            Who actually approached me
            Unlike your buddy Dan
            Bodger and I have never even exchanged mails

            And if I get a free ride around here
            They wouldn’t have stopped a contribution

            And calling me a troll is well out’ve order
            And you know it

            I’ll come and go as I please
            And I’ll write as I please
            I’m not trying to convince anyone of an agenda
            Or to my intelligence
            Whatever the level
            I’m not arsed

            You see
            Because I’m really a nobody
            You don’t know who I am
            What I do for a living
            Who my friends and family are

            Tell Dan to stop crying

          3. Frilly Keane

            More and more arse Strep

            Although I do get a certain kick outta’ve being accused of using multiple names here.
            Since this is the one location I never have. It’s always been Frilly or versions of Frilly here.

            Anyway busy weekend ahead for Home of the Dixies with the Premier bhiys

            Hon’Cork

  16. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    Frilly…
    I posted and protested here about an hour ago, purposely praising your attitude towards your detractors.
    I used NO bad language, I attacked NOBODY individually, I knowingly caused NO offense, deliberately OR unintentionally, apart from those beardy blokes with monocles who defend the ‘Queen’s’ English,

    -Then an ‘intelligent’, ‘good-looking’ Moderator deleted it.
    It happens…
    You wouldn’t expect them up this early on a Saturday, would you? Probably wet the bed last night or something, but I digress.

    Anyway, my point is this;
    -It’s the mouthy ones with nothing to say who shout loudest, and then they run away back to their Mammies.
    That’s all I want to say.
    (I’d say more but I’ll only be censored again.)

    Do your thing Frilly, and buck the fegrudgers.
    Then do it again, and again….

    It’s a sunny day here. I’m on a tropical beach drinking cocktails, but it’s getting very warm. My flaptop is over-heating and I need to take off this dress. I’m sweating like a pig.

    [Go on BS, delete this one too. I’m gonna be here ALL DAY, and ALL NIGHT. Don’t make me change my name and access point. wink, wink!]

  17. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    @ sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq
    -Have you no control over your avatars?
    -I know what you’re trying to say. Sometimes it’s slightly amusing but you constantly mess this aspect of it up. Get rid of your second avatar if you can’t handle it.

    Where’s the joke when you mention ‘changing your dress’ if you appear like Wario, the greatest video-game character of ALL TIME? He would never wear a dress if he wasn’t getting paid handsomely for it.
    -Which reminds me, your other avatar is Ron Jeremy wearing a dress and a wig. -Do you even know who Ron Jeremy IS???

    You need new avatars pal, ones that can behave themselves.
    -Ones that don’t intentionally get drunk when everyone else is sober just because that’s funnier.

    Oh yeah, I nearly forgot…
    NOBODY reads your stuff, you’re not funny, and just because you have you have one contributor to this site who wants you to bang her, and another one who’s furious you because you won’t bang her again, -that’s no reason to be big-headed.*

    *(NOT Frilly, neither of them, but sure you never know what might happen. Ammirite SPANX?)

    **(Hey SPuNKY, imagine what me and you could do together…(.No, not that, slow down…)
    I have the brains, the good looks jokes, the charisma, the class. the reputation and the ideas. You have a camera and a leather jacket. We could make money…(I mean YOU and sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq could make money. I have his e-mail address.)

  18. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    @sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    You were supposed to post that last comment with NO avatar.
    -Don’t pretend that you didn’t make that acciident on purpose, and stop abusing the English language.

  19. sǝɯǝɯʇɐpɐq

    Stay out of it, ‘pal’.

    Everything is running smooth…without you…
    …think about it…

    We have the one who wants you, yeah, the one who once-upon-a-time had you and messed it up, and NOW…you have this bloke who’s probably straight called SPANX / Leather Jacket Guy…ALL of them want to bang you!!!!!

    You can’t do it.
    Stop.

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