Yesterday afternoon.

Pro Life campaigners outside Leinster House during the debate on Ruth Coppinger’s bill to repeal the Eight Amendment banning abortion in Ireland.

Earlier: ‘You Could Arrest Me And Give Me 14 Years… But You Won’t’


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111 thoughts on “Alternatively

  1. ReproBertie

    As I understand it this is to do with the drop in the number of Downs children born in countries with abortion so the real message from the Retain movement is that pregnant women can’t be trusted to make the decision we want them to make so the safest option is to deny them that decision.

    1. newsjustin

      If the Repeal side can claim that having 40.3.3 in the Constitution poses a danget to women, then the Retain side can certainly claim that removing 40.3.3 will mean more foetuses with Downs Syndrome will be aborted.

      1. ReproBertie

        It’s an irrelevance. It’s “every child deserves a mother and a father” style conversation derailing. The 8th is not about Downs. It’s about a woman’s right to choose. It’s certainly not about whether we agree with each individual choice or not.

        1. newsjustin

          Repro some things are about more than one thing. There are consequences to decisions. That’s the real world.

          1. ReproBertie

            Of course there are consequence to decisions and that’s another irrelevance as this is about being allowed to make a decision instead of being denied the opportunity to choose because the decision may not be one that some people like.

            Irish women are having abortions in the real world. The 8th is a controlling measure on those who can’t afford to travel for abortion, nothing more.

          2. Starina

            newsjustin, why do you seem to think that aborting a fetus with downs is even worse than aborting a normal fetus?

          3. newsjustin

            It’s neither better nor worse. But the numbers are more stark. 92% of foetuses with Downs aborted in E&W and 100% in Iceland. It’s also troublesome that they are particularly targeted because they are disabled.

          4. martco

            one of my children has Downs…he’s not HANDICAPPED
            you probably didn’t intend to offend but please watch your language ok

          5. Daisy Chainsaw

            Would you force a pregnant woman or girl with Down Syndrome to give up her child after the birth?

          6. Daisy Chainsaw

            What safeguards would you put into place to make sure the child was being properly cared for? The mother has an intellectual disability and may not be fit to raise the child.

          7. newsjustin

            The same safeguards applied to any other person who has a baby. People with an intellectual disability are not an alien species.

          8. Daisy Chainsaw

            What safeguards are those, newsjustin? The odd visit from a community nurse in the first few months? A child benefit form in the post?

            What kind of campaign strategy do so called “prolife” groups have to vindicate the rights of people with disabilities, other than to exploit them as Andrex Puppies?

          9. newsjustin

            Daisy, the visits from the community nurse immediately after birth is essential in determining if a mother, and indeed, a family is capable of ensuring the welfare of the new baby. It’s not a trivial visit. If a district nurse is dissatisfied with the environment that the newborn is in, they can begin measures (right up to instigating the removal into the care of the state) a child. This is true for any mother and family.

            I have no clue what prolife groups do regarding disability issues, not being a member of any. I do feel though that not aborting a foetus because it has been identified as disabled is quite fundamental in any approach to vindicating the rights of disabled people. That’s quite important.

          10. Daisy Chainsaw

            So it’s forced birth and then remove the child from the mother with intellectual disabilities because we can’t be letting them have sex and babies. They’re fine as cute puppies for a poster campaign, but at the end of the day, they’re not seen as real people with desires, urges, ambitions, faults and frailties.

          11. Daisy Chainsaw

            You’re not interested in the realities of a life with an intellectual disability, not to mention the underlying health issues. You’re just interested in exploiting one group in society as a tool to shame another one.

            If people with Downs are so important, campaign for their rights, rather than exploit them for your own woman hating ends.

          12. Mr Reality

            More pathetic empathy extortion first it was puppies and kittens now I’m not paying enough respect to the physically challenged, than I’m a troll and a sexist, jaysus it’s difficult keeping up with all this millennial generation feminist faux outrage

          13. newsjustin

            “If people with Downs are so important, campaign for their rights……”

            Exactly. Like campaigning to retain 40.3.3 so that foetuses with Downs Syndrome can’t be selected for termination.

          14. ReproBertie

            40.3.3 does not prevent abortion. It just forces those who can afford it and can arrange it to go overseas for abortion thus acting as a controlling measure on any woman who can’t. Bringing Downs into it is an attempt to derail the conversation.

  2. Fully Keen

    Women are idiots.

    They can’t possibly make a sensible decision.

    We should take the right to vote away from them too. It makes sense.

    1. newsjustin

      I’ve only ever heard pro choice people talking about preventing one gender from voting on this topic.

      1. PeteS

        If you think that post you’re replying to is serious, newsjustin, you’re even thicker than I gave you credit for.

  3. Harry Molloy

    There’s no denying that this will happen which is why I don’t like seeing the whole concept of abortion being presented as some fluffy human rights victory on par with gay marriage.
    it’s a horrible thing but I’ll still vote to repeal because it’s better than the alternative which is people having unwanted kids or unwanted pregnancies.

    1. ReproBertie

      Whether this will happen or not is irrelevant. Abortion is happening now. Thousands of Irish women travel for abortions for any number of reasons. The 8th only prevents abortion by making it too expensive for some.

      1. newsjustin

        It’s not irrelevant to the debate that 100% of foetuses with Downs Syndrome are aborted in Iceland. OR that 92% are aborted in England and Wales. IT’S very relevant. Most Irish people know a person who happens to have Downs Syndrome. So it’s understandable that some are concerned.

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          Do you suggest a ban on testing for chromasomal abnormalities so families only find out after birth? Will anti choice groups cover the shortfall in costs for raising a child with Down Syndrome? Are they campaigning for shorter waiting times for surgery and therapy? Or do they just want a cute puppy substitute for a forced birth poster campaign?

        2. ReproBertie

          What has knowing someone with Downs got to do with it? It’s not about Downs. It’s about the right to choose. Repealing the 8th won’t mean compulsory abortions.

        3. Bobby

          I think you’re missing the whole women’s access to healthcare and bodily autonomy and all that jazz. Access to abortion is a women’s right issue, even if I disagree personally. I don’t really think I, especially as a male, have any right to even an opinion on what a woman wants to do with her body, it’s a deeply private affair.

          The only reason I speak out supporting women is because so many men think that regardless of what the issue is actually about, they know what’s better, or what is and isn’t important.

          I support women’s right to bodily autonomy and privacy. Do you?

          1. Holden MaGroin

            Do you draw the line so clearly Mildred i.e. in the womb it’s a fetus/outside its a human?

          2. Mr Reality

            Yea it’s just goo moving in an intelligent direction forming a baby, no conscious nothing just plain goo is that what your trying to get across Bertie

  4. Starina

    it’s my right to decide whether i want to have a child or not. and even if i do, it’s my right to decide whether i want – or have the resources to manage – a disabled child.

    1. Holden MaGroin

      At some point in the pregnancy the baby is alive. So at some point isn’t an abortion murder?

          1. Holden MaGroin

            That seems like a lazy answer. Perhaps you don’t want to explain your position because you can’t?

          2. Starina

            perhaps there’s a whole bunch of information out there and i’m tired of explaining simple things over and over again to people who wilfully pretend ignorance?

          3. Holden MaGroin

            I was genuinely curious to see what your thoughts were. I don’t feel I am being willfully ignorant but I could be better educated on the moral arguments around this issue. Just wanted to see were you were coming from.

            I must say I find it hard to ask the question aloud for fear of being derided but isn’t that an understandable question to ask. I feel it is. It seems from talking to Bertie below there is no consensus on when a fetus becomes a human. I think this is the line for me between abortion and murder. If there is no consensus then how can a decision ever be arrived at. This ambiguity seems to be the area that individuals have to make their choice in. Do I personally believe a fetus is human from conception or not? This is quite the dilemma.

            I definitely do not agree that women should have to carry babies that have died in the womb to term that seems so horribly distressing and avoidable. I also don’t think that deeply upset women should have to travel to another country to have an abortion. However I also feel that abortion past a certain stage is wrong.

            When I think of allowing women to choose I feel that if they choose after a fetus becomes human is wrong. It feels like an unpopular thing to say but I am not sure that it is ignorant.

          4. Mr Reality

            Wow what insight, are you a specialist mid wife and a doctor? or does being a woman automatically grant you this specialist knowledge?

          5. Starina

            you’re right. this is all a part of my plan to herald the arrival of Ragnarok, when Fenrir shall consume the sun, the earth shall sink and flames rise to the heavens.

      1. ReproBertie

        No. If it was the thousands of women travelling to England for abortions would be charged with murder.

        1. Holden MaGroin

          I’m not sure I agree with you on that Bertie. Knowing how good at passing the buck and obfuscating our governments can be. Do you honestly believe that?

          1. ReproBertie

            Despite what some would have you believe, the government don’t arrest people or charge them with crimes. That’s up to the Gardaí.

            Abortion is no more murder than miscarriage is manslaughter.

          2. Holden MaGroin

            You’re side-stepping my question. Government/Garda I think you know the point I am making. A miscarriage is not a deliberate act an abortion is. So I don’t think I agree with your comparison.

          3. ReproBertie

            What question? The “at some point isn’t an abortion murder” question that I already answered? I’ll answer it again for you. No.

            If you want hand holding specifics then fine. Murder is the intentional killing of another human. There is no consensus on when an embryo or foetus become a human so there is no way to prove that someone who has an abortion had intent to kill a human. Even then it’s the doctor that actually performs the abortion so there would be a need to prove that the doctor set out to knowingly kill a human. If you want to argue that life begins at conception then anyone who has ever taken the morning after pill would face murder charges and chemists would face charges as accessories to murder.

          4. Holden MaGroin

            So it seems to come down to when the fetus becomes a human. Therein lies the difference. Fair enough. So I suppose the next question is when does a fetus become human. There really is no consensus on this? We should really get to work on that.

            Thanks Bertie (except for the hand holding condescension that was quite helpful).

          5. ReproBertie

            No, there really is no consensus on it which is why different jurisdictions allow abortions to different times.

          6. Lorcan Nagle

            Holden – it’s worth noting that the crime someone who has an abortion in Ireland would be charged with is illegally procuring a miscarriage – so by the letter of the law, it is a crime.

        2. Daisy Chainsaw

          Miscarriage is a deliberate act. You hardly thing it’s accidental, do you?

          It’s a deliberate act by the female body to rid itself of something it perceives as a parasite which doesn’t belong.

          1. Holden MaGroin

            Well I meant in relation to a person choosing it versus their body deciding but it’s a good point you’re making. I didn’t think of it like that.

          2. Holden MaGroin

            Climb down of your high horse there please. I’m not an anti-choicer I’m just asking questions.

  5. Daisy Chainsaw

    Anti choicers wouldn’lt know what to do if a woman living with Downs wanted sexual agency over her own body. They’re too busy patronising them and reducing them to the status of cute puppies and kittens to exploit for poster campaigns, rather than the complex human beings they are. Remember the infantilising of Karen Scott who went missing for a couple of days in Finglas? Middle aged woman went to the pub and wouldn’t co-operate with the Gardai when they caught up with her.

    What if a 12 year old girl with Downs was abused and found to be pregnant? What support from anti choice groups then? Or would it be the normal method of forced birth and then taking her baby from her because she’s got Downs and is therefore automatically unsuitable to raise a child?

    Remember Downs Syndrome is for life, not just for exploitative ad campaigns.

      1. Daisy Chainsaw

        I’m anti exploitation of people with intellectual disabilities which is what this facet of the anti choice campaign is. Beyond exploiting them as a prop, in the same way that ad agencies use kittens and puppies to sell toilet paper, anti choice groups don’t care about people with disabilities.

        Do you believe a woman with Down Syndrome has the same entitlement to a sexual relationship and children as a woman without a chromasomal disorder?

          1. Daisy Chainsaw

            How am I “anti life”? What an idiotic statement! I love life. I love protecting the rights of the living over lives that merely have potential. I want to see the rights of the living vindicated, including the rights of people living with Down Syndrome and I don’t want to see them exploited like Andrex Puppies by anti choicers who would have a conniption at the thought of a woman with downs having periods, a sex drive and a wish to have sex and children.

            Would you let a woman with Down Syndrome have a child?

          2. ReproBertie

            It’s word games Daisy. If the opposite of Pro-Choice is Anti-Choice then the opposite of Pro-Life is Anti-Life

          3. Daisy Chainsaw

            It’s bollocks, ReproBertie! The so called “prolife” movement isn’t pro life because they really don’t care what happens once the unborn becomes the born. When was the last time you saw so called “prolife” campaigning for children or those with disabilities? Any crowdfunding to ensure a mother or family in crisis gets proper accomodation? Advising on proper sex education that goes beyond abstinence, oxytocin and sellotape?

            They’re pro-forced birth, nothing else.

  6. Bobby

    This campaign hits the nail on the head. I wish that my down syndrome relations, whom I love and adore, were aborted so I never got to know them, and I am pro death all the way.

    Legalise murder I say.

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          Do you believe a woman with Down Syndrome has the same entitlement to a sexual relationship and children as a woman without a chromasomal disorder?

        2. Kieran NYC

          So in your fervor to support Downs babies, you just called someone a window-licker, a well-known slur against intellectually disabled people.

          Well done. That’s quite astounding.

          1. Mr Reality

            My comment was in reply to the tasteless cookie comment befoe it but feel free to ignore that Kieran, no bias or anything

    1. Boy M5

      “my down syndrome relations”

      Sure Bobby. The family of Downs you’re related to? There’s a few of them yeah?

  7. Joe Cool

    You can be absolutely 100% guaranteed, that if any of the women in the above picture had any life threatening during pregnancy or forbid got pregnant through rape, they’d be screaming for an abortion

    1. Holden MaGroin

      No actually. You can’t. Are you a mind reader? Perhaps you know them all individually and have spoken to them at length on this issue. If so I apologise.

  8. Mark Dennehy

    So about twelve people show up for literally fifteen minutes and get equal coverage in the name of “balance”.
    And we wonder why we can’t have nice things like laws that make sense…

    1. nellyb

      “We can’t have nice things like laws that make sense” – no, we can’t. Laws that make sense are based on reason, not passionate idealists with limited life experience (none of them look like they are in violent homes or having nutrition problems). I’d ask them one question: are you ready for eventuality of being permanently disabled or die as results of pregnancy? If they say yes – they are definitely liars.
      So what sort of sense do you expect in this scenario? They can stand there all right, but as a billboard of ignorance and cruelty.

  9. nellyb

    They should be standing outside god’s house. God aborts more genetically abnormal ‘souls’ than abortion clinics combined.
    In 1 out 5 miscarriages, in the first 8 weeks, embryonic soul is discarded because it fails to get into the sac. So it ‘starves’ to death. Derbies are flushed out then. By God’s own design.
    Up to 40% of miscarriages, in first 20 weeks, have chromosomal abnormalities. God dislikes chromosomal abnormalities.
    Are these girls home schooled? Why not pick up biology book and learn about your own bloody body? Pun intended.

  10. Starina

    my guess is you’re one of those men who seems really normal to everyone else but gets his pentup aggression out by secretly being a troll online.

Comments are closed.

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