Crossing Jordan

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From top: The 3Arena tonight and a recording of Jordan Peterson’s interview with Marian Finucane on RTÉ Radio One earlier.

The 3Arena, Dublin.

Daniel Doran writes:

This is the crowd (top) for [controversial cultural critic] Jordan Peterson tonight…

FIGHT!

Jordan Peterson?

112 thoughts on “Crossing Jordan

        1. Pee Pee

          Clampers, you seem to be a big fan of JP. In our mid lives we’ll read these non-fiction books of a commentary kind to ascertain where we fit in. Make light of it all. Can you tell me how Jordan Peterson has helped you, or influenced you?

          1. Clampers Outside!

            I had a full day… yesterday.
            I came by him when researching domestic violence intervention methods, via another Canadian, Dr Donald Dutton, and a conference he spoke at on the youtube. This lead me to a vid where JP spoke of men’s inability to deal with violent women.

            It kinda went from there.

            What has he done for me or how has he influenced me? I first found that he spoke well and from an informed position on the topics he speaks on. He’s clear, but he is also not an absolutist on the issues he speaks on. Unlike say, those on the opposing position who do speak in absolutes, say radical feminists speaking on the so called “patriarchal hegemony” which to my mind has more real demonstrable evidence against it, than the spurious evidence for it.

            A little bit of disclosure… On the issue of domestic violence, I have had the unfortunate experience of having been in an abusive and later violent relationship over a period of seven years. I do not see myself as any kind of victim, because that was then, and this is me now.

            JP in some lectures speaks on “vicitmhood culture” and rightly has pointed out that to continually see oneself as a victim allows that issue that caused victimhood to continually have a hold on the person. I agree with this completely, it was an issue I found in researching recovery from trauma. He’s not the only one who acknowledges this.
            Too much emphasis in recovery was, is, being placed on taking power from being a victim, and one would need to continually see oneself as a victim to maintain that power.
            And it is my belief, my understanding, that to do this actually has a negative effect on an individuals psyche, and a good solid recovery. It is just not healthy, and my knowledge of recovery confirms that, for me. And I see plenty of evidence in research for it too.

            We as humans have a far greater capacity for resilience and a healthy recovery, than we do for a need to take power from victimhood which from what i’ve read, works counter to that resilience.

            Hope that answers your question, it is only a part of a bigger picture. And in fairness, thanks for asking, it’s good to recap these things now and again :)

            PS – I do not take everything JP speaks on as fact. I completely disagree with him, for example, that morality comes from religion. But I do agree with him that every human being has the capacity for both good and evil, and we are not essentially one or the other..

  1. Jesús, María, and Josépha

    That’s a big turnout for Marian, alright…

    Oh.

    Right.

    I don’t agree with all he says to say (and some of the univserstity-bashing stuff is pure Freedom Institute/Politics.ie Waghorne/McGuirk/Cochrane stuff of old), but what he says is worth thinking about. The Irish media are probably a bigger factor in creating the identity politics blowback than our universities and students unions, but both feed off each others. Ironically, the rest of us suffer from the Irish Times/RTE peddling of identity politics narrative right off the Seanad University Panel of TCD (DU)/Village Magazine brigade… it’s helping only the nuts who help themselves to the public purse.

    Why identity politics benefits the right more than the left

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/14/identity-politics-right-left-trump-racism

    1. Clampers Outside!

      While I agree with that, to a degree. One needs to figure out where all this ‘identity politics’ began, and I’m sure very few if any would deny that today’s identity politics is purely a creation of the Left over the past few decades.

      “Originally, Left-wing parties played one game: class struggle. Everything was told in terms of a supposed struggle between the oppressive bourgeois and the oppressed proletariat.
      In time, the “class struggle” story had to be upgraded because it wasn’t producing enough return on investment. The middle class was booming, people were affording more and more consumer goods and gadgets.
      So class was joined by “gender”, sex, and race, as actors in the Game of Oppression.”*

      From, ‘White identity politics is a creation of the Left’ – https://medium.com/@gore.burnelli/white-identity-politics-is-a-creation-of-the-left-ff102b7254b5

      The writer is talking about what has become manifest as “intersectionality” theory. This then leads to the creation of “victimhood culture” and a hierarchy of oppression, often mocked as the “oppression Olympics”.
      Proponents of the theory compete to be the biggest victim. Why? Because within the intersectional theory it is claimed that superior knowledge is gained through the experience of suffering – which is in and of itself a complete nonsense because at its’ base, this denies human ability for empathy and understanding. It is though, an imperative of the theory, because this is how the narrative is controlled by activists who claim to be the biggest victims.
      If one is the biggest victim, the theory goes, they know more about a situation than anyone else. As a result, they can therefore shut down conversations of those who don’t tow the line of the most extreme view, or the biggest victim narrative. In doing so this usually results in the biggest victim throwing out labels as per the slurs listed (and many others) below**.
      Why use labels? Because the gold medal oppressed Olympian holds all the knowledge and to challenge that “knowledge” is to pick on or bully a victim.

      This is what lead to the creation of right wing identity politics. “Today, white identity politics is largely a reaction against the left’s policy of labeling whites with whom they disagree as bigots*. Instead of debating the issues, they further their political agenda by smearing whites who may not have the same views. Moreover, they have used our culture, the media, and our educational institutions to promote the notion that whites are inherently racist — especially if they are conservatives.”
      That’s from a piece published in uber leftist publication Huff Post – https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/what-created-todays-white-identity-politics_us_5a2ec487e4b04cb297c2aef8

      From what I see, the biggest loser in identity politics and the race to the bottom to be the most aggrieved “group” results in those individuals who are most in need are the ones losing out to the groups who are most vocal and most equipped in campaigning and activism. Seeing people as groups, rather than individuals is another conversation very much relevant to this.

      As Martin Luther King said “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character”, which is the antithesis of identity politics. If one sides with ID politics, one cannot claim to respect the teachings of MLK.

      — *
      The so called ’Game of Oppression’ or intersectionality also stems from the idea that as things improve, society has a tendency to focus on what was previously deemed the smaller issues and make these bigger issues than they actually are – I did bookmark a really good academic paper on this which I cannot locate presently, but will post if I can. It is this tendency in society to make the smallest grievance bigger when the biggest grievance is no longer a major issue that has manifest in ideas in everything from ‘microaggressions’ to ‘unconscious bias training’ to grievances about ‘manspreading’.

      — **
      And I’d add to that with a list of labels including fascist, alt-right, Nazi, mysoginist, racist, sexist, and even cis…. too name a few.

      1. Jesús, María, and Josépha

        Fair comment. I would add that the identity politics brigade on the left and right continue to fall into that classic Marxist classist failure of assuming that he victim class is completely homogeneous – i.e., Meghan Markle and Danielle Carroll would be treated as the same.

      2. Niamh

        I’m not a fan of the latest incarnation of identity politics, which unthinkingly valorises victimhood and totally contravenes the most significant material interpretation of Marxism so far – Gramsci. Gramsci pointed out that the oppressed group always aspire NOT to be oppressed, and do not (by implication) actually like wallowing about in self-pity: this is not how a proper Marxist critique would view things.

        HOWEVER, respectfully, you’ve interpreted intersectionality wrong. It doesn’t presume superior knowledge through victimhood. It understands the subject to potentially experience more than one systemic form of oppression at a given time, therefore a movement like socialism must adapt to the legacy of patriarchy, racism, etc, to properly represent and agitate for human rights. It was invented to help marry black civil rights movements to other civil rights movements in the US. You’ve really just – and I say this respectfully – defined it incorrectly. Whether on purpose or out of genuine ignorance I don’t know.

        Peterson has tapped into the grievances of a generation of mediocre white boys who are no longer structurally on top because the only win they had in life – whiteness, maleness – is no longer enough to guarantee access to status and the sexual subservience of women. IMO, that’s the nub of it.

        If you look at his writing with a coldly critical eye, it’s exceptionally banal and un-original, mostly rehashing Joseph Campbell but sucking all the sex out.

        BTW: serious question. How many of you people who feel so victimised by ‘campus culture’ and its woke intersectionality actually live, work, or have any realistic day-to-day dealings with an actual university campus in Ireland? ‘Cause I do, and it’s not that pervasive really. It’s just a notional thing that certain wings of the poor-me-neo-right-media love to fetish.

        And the Seanad? It has very little real influence. The Catholic Church has more material influence on the government than the Seanad. The landlord class has even more. Go figure.

        In short: petty grievances ballooned into a political position. Jordanites are just as snowflakey and self-pitying as the worst examples of angels-on-a-pinhead identity politics. Problem is, this kind of mobilisaion of lazy self-regard (which used to be a main premise of certain forms of nationalism) has a history of causing…well, that famous mid-century genocide, for one.

        1. deluded

          Yeah, would have been fine there without that last sentence, Niamh.
          We can have people dehumanised such that their mistreatment, abuse and murder are excused without actually organising trains to concentration camps.
          (eg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense).

          You are right though on the rest of it, a lot of these bro-flakes entertain wildly overblown fantasies of oppression and victimhood. Then when challenged they wander off on side tangents to talk about how laws written by and for men are so unfair to men and therefore feminists are the real Nazis and besides some feminists don’t like transexuals. It’s less a coherent argument and more a deeply confused and insecure view of how the bro-flake “fits” in society. People like Peterson have thrown them a bone.

          (I like Peterson’s “lobster” thing he has going because of the well documented ability of crustaceans to transition between genders).

        2. Andrew

          “How many of you people who feel so victimised by ‘campus culture’ and its woke intersectionality actually live, work, or have any realistic day-to-day dealings with an actual university campus in Ireland? ‘Cause I do, and it’s not that pervasive really.”

          Indeed Niamh and you write that without any hint of irony. You have zero perspective.

          1. Niamh

            HkYou know academics are tax-paying, culture consuming, members of families, athletes, friends, and aaaall kinds of other things too? Ivory tower is a metaphor, not literal. It so happens I also know what campus culture is like and can call out lazy rhetorical references to it too. Peterson relies on his academic identity for gravitas and thinks it bamboozles people : broflakes blame campus culture for ‘cultural Marxism’. My perspective is soundly informed, thanks.

          2. Andrew

            If you say so Niamh, I’ve no doubt you’re a well rounded, well adjusted individual. You mentioned the Ivory Tower. Not me.
            BTW I too am very familiar with ‘campus culture’ UCD in particular.

          3. Clampers Outside!

            “Peterson relies on his academic identity for gravitas and thinks it bamboozles people : broflakes blame campus culture for ‘cultural Marxism’. My perspective is soundly informed, thanks”

            Giving out about his ego while stroking your own, and being derogatory towards a group. I did chuckle.
            Self awareness, hello, anybody in….

        3. Clampers Outside!

          My interpretation is largely on how the ‘intersectionality’ theory is applied. It does presume greater understanding. Where do you think ‘shut up white boy and listen’ comes from? It assumes ignorance due to gender and skin colour. Nothing more ignorant than that, in fairness.
          You say, “Peterson has tapped into the grievances of a generation of mediocre white boys who are no longer structurally on top because the only win they had in life – whiteness, maleness – is no longer enough to guarantee access to status and the sexual subservience of women. IMO, that’s the nub of it.”
          Yes, that is your opinion, and it is wrong. For one, if they were mediocre they wouldn’t be on top of anything, they’d be mediocre. That’s the real nub of it. You assume that because someone is white and male they have power. That is an assumption based on an ideological belief. That ideology being, the patriarchal hegemony theory, which is claptrap. If patriarchal hegemony existed, men would have all the health benefits they need and plenty of funding to figure out male suicide issues. If it exists, western civilisation is the worst attempt at it ever.

          Obama’s speech yesterday on the centenary of Mandela’s birth makes a point of the attacks on ‘white’ and ‘males’ and how it shuts down dialogue.
          A short excerpt… democracy demands getting inside “the reality of people who are different than us.”…. “You can’t do it if you insist that those who aren’t like you because they’re white, or because they’re male…that somehow they lack standing to speak on certain matters.”
          It’s from a short video here from ABC News USA – https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1019233996943683591 (It was after seeing this I remembered I meant to come back to you to reply)

          You say, “If you look at his writing with a coldly critical eye, it’s exceptionally banal and un-original, mostly rehashing Joseph Campbell but sucking all the sex out.” – I don’t have issue with this. I’ve read his twelve rules, and it was, as you say, rather banal writing.
          But the info is decent advice for young men who are lost. But your efforts, or the many enraged by JP’s words, the combined effort, to shut down JP would deny those young men access to it. Which is extremely petty and small minded. And as Obama pointed out, not good for any dialogue.

          You ask “How many of you people who feel so victimised by ‘campus culture’ and its woke intersectionality actually live, work, or have any realistic day-to-day dealings with an actual university campus in Ireland?”
          WOW! : ) …“you people” really? “feel victimised” by what? “woke intersectionality” …are you for real?
          Victimised by “woke” …no, not at all. I laugh at so called “wokeness”. A recent example, I saw a few “woke” types getting above themselves saying that “black” men won the World Cup for France. These were, usually white middle class types, but one particular commentator who is a “woke” black man got owned by French black commentators… here’s that – https://twitter.com/fred_connection/status/1018816854230556672

          By the way, I don’t believe that “woke intersectionality” is a big thing on Irish campuses either. But the fact that you recognise that it is there, on the “wings” as you say, means it is there on the “wings”. It is present.
          University is for thinking and debate, not shutting those things down. And it only takes a few on the “wings” to do that.
          Here’s another Obama speech where he says that Uni is for debate, and educational institutions are not the place to shut out other ideas, it is the place to have conversations, and arguments about different ideas – https://youtu.be/iIqTgGsl9YM
          “In short: petty grievances ballooned into a political position.” – That’s where identity politics meets intersectionality, as pointed out earlier.
          I did like the phrase “Jordanites”. Kinda funny, got a ring to it. You assume that all persons who listen to Jordan are the same as those who follow identity politics. But that’s just a simple easy way to paint everyone with the same brush. You are doing the thing that you are giving out about, in fairness.

          I’m with you on the Seanad.

          And as others have pointed out… your last sentence… Pffffft!

          To save time, @Nigel, much of the above is for you also.

      3. Nigel

        ‘Because within the intersectional theory it is claimed that superior knowledge is gained through the experience of suffering ‘

        Superior knowledge about their own experiences, surely. This whole derision of victim culture is nothing more than mocking people for speaking out about their experiences and refusing to defer to others about those experiences and refusing to be told to shut up about their experiences. White men really do seem to see oppression as a game, and when people get attention or refuse to shut up, they’re seen as winning this game.

        Extra points for quoting the one MLK quote white people always quote when telling black people they should shut up.

          1. Nigel

            Hmm, I’d say the closest I’ve come to that kind of thing myself would be in regard to mental health. If I were to talk about Ireland’s appalling treatment of people with mental health problems in the past, about Irish attitudes towards depression and mental health when I was growing up, and the struggle in the last few decades to change those attitudes, to get people to speak up and seek help, to reduce the shame and the stigma surrounding mental health, how we are even now plagued with horrific suicide rates, especially amongst young men and travellers, how austerity cutbacks have devastated mental health services, and how there are sill plenty of people who will mock or deride or even attack people when they speak up, then you might accuse me of having a victim mentality, of creating a culture of victimhood, of participating in repression olympics, of claiming to have superior knowledge gained through suffering which I am using to negate empathy and understanding, of engaging in a race to the bottom to be the biggest victim, of shutting down conversations and throwing out slurs and using labels. I mean, I doubt you WOULD say any of that because those are patently ridiculous things to say. But apparently if you think, eg, racism and sexism and homophobia are bad and speak up about their history and their effect and how they currently manifest and their effects you are guilty of all those things. Funny how it works, eh?

          2. D

            If a young man or a traveller, or indeed someone less roguishly masculine than were indeed to attempt to silence you on the basis of their subjectively even worse experience, then I may indeed accuse them of doing all that.

            It would be ridiculous not to call them out for it.

        1. Clampers Outside!

          “Superior knowledge about their own experiences, surely.”

          Exactly, no one will argue with that. The problem is that anecdotes of “own experiences” are used as a method to explain many other experiences. To speak for groups.

  2. SOQ

    Peterson is pushing back against the academic left and he does make some valid points. I know of one trans woman who says she feels quite differently now and she thinks a lot of that is down to hormones. It is a debate that needs to be had because even in Ireland, the left is becoming more like the right. A classic example being those clowns trying to block people from going to see the pope.

  3. Facebook

    He makes some valid points and some maddeningly regressive/patently wrong ones, therein lies the problem. We live in a world where everyone seems to relish being in an intellectual silo. I am X, you are Y, I cannot see beyond the limits of my self-imposed intellectual silo. I blame the internet for making the entire world feel paranoid and victimised. These are dangerous times.

    1. SOQ

      Or, you could say that the internet is responsible for taking the intellectual debates out of the Universities and into peoples homes. Jordan made an interesting point recently which was that the internet has helped people realise that they are not as stupid as television made them think they were.

      This is only the start of the information age and there will be a few bumps along the way but for the most part, I think it is a good thing.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        Also, is it not the regressive left that makes people feel paranoid and victimised through the creation of two artefacts of modern society –
        1. ‘victimhood culture’ – the victimised

        and 2. ‘political correctness’ – the abuse of anyone who dares speak in opposition of the victim narrative?

          1. Crimea River

            http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=673
            Transgender tendencies and mental illness are linked. This is undisputed, without any objections from Lgbt. Infact it was a sub theme of this year’s pride march. Genital reconfiguration has zero impact on suicide rate or mental health. Hormone “therapy” increases these statistics, alarmingly! So to say everyone else is the cause of this phenomenon is reprehensible. It’s comparable to telling a person who suffers from paranoia… “yes the world is against you, people are talking about you behind your back, “

          2. Clampers Outside!

            Not sure your response was intended as a direct response to my previous comment, but I am aware of all that you have mentioned, and I am not in disagreement.

            Check out Alice Dregger’s book ‘Galilieo’s Middle Finger’. In that she goes through a number of years working with activists and scientists on the issue of genital reconfiguration for those persons born intersex. I have not finished the book yet myself, but I’m sure she will get to the topic of mental health and intersex persons.
            https://www.amazon.fr/Galileos-Middle-Finger-Heretics-Activists-ebook/dp/B00LFZ8OLQ

          3. SOQ

            I see you have changed your name senitent / crimea. You are posting a link from Teni which says absolutely nothing about hormones.

            Your entire exposure to the transsexual community was meeting a transsexual in a pub once and not liking her boobs?

            I suggest you get out and actually meet a few people because at the moment you are typing directly from your backside.

            What is it with this site and nasty cretins these days?

        1. Nigel

          1. Imagine commenting about victim culture in reference to anyone other than straight white men under an article about Jordan Peterson.

          2. Political correctness is basically good manners. Imagine accusing people of abuse when they’re reacting to someone being rude to them.

          1. Clampers Outside!

            Pfffft! You’re response is simply silly.

            To your first, there’s a connect between ID politics and “victimhood culture”. So, yes, imagine it, and read it. Have you actually a point to make here or are you just going to be snide?

            To you second, good manners are good manners and political correctness is not a synonym of good manners as you state when you say that it is “basically” the same thing. To equate the two as you have is a ridiculous simplification of what is political correctness.

            As is pointed out in the interview, and agreed by both, and I’m sure everyone but you who listened to it, meanings of words matter, a lot.

            On that…
            Good manners is – The treatment of other people with courtesy and politeness, and showing correct public behaviour.

            Political correctness is – the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

          2. Nigel

            It’s a bit telling that you don’t see what you describe in your last paragraph as basic good manners.

          3. Clampers Outside!

            I see you are back in your postmodernist argumentation again where definition of words don’t matter. Sorry but, I don’t speak your gobbledygook.

            May I refer you back to this….

            “As is pointed out in the interview, and agreed by both, and I’m sure everyone but you who listened to it, meanings of words matter, a lot.”

            Again, meanings of words matter.

            – –
            BTW – telling of what? Do tell, please.

          4. Nigel

            And sometimes things have more than one word that can be used to describe them. This is more of a modernist concept than a postmodernist one, but someone who thinks that postmodernism means ‘the definition of words don’t matter’ might not get much out of the distinction.

          5. Nigel

            Well what does it tell us about someone who thinks that not using words that exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against isn;t basic good manners?

          6. Clampers Outside!

            Both those comments are still in gobbledygook land, in all fairness. And not worth commenting on until something more clear is put forth.

            Vagueness is the tool of those who know not of what they speak.

          7. Sentient Won

            Political correctness seeks to restrict free speech. (Just like Nigel does here on a daily basis.)

            For example:

            There are only two genders. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a deranged psychotic. Taking hormones and cutting bits off yourself to solve an emotional problem causes irreversible psychological and physiological harm and should not be allowed and/or encouraged under any circumstances.

            Now, tell me: Am I being rude or am I being politically incorrect?

          8. SOQ

            No you are not being politically incorrect, you are just being a tool. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition. Now unless you are a medical specialist in that area, you are just another bitchy clown ranting on the internet.

            Comprendo?

          9. Sentient Won

            “Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition.”

            So it’s an illness than: A mental//emotional//psychological disorder.

            You can say it but I can’t it seems: That’s the evil genius of political correctness.

            I reject any doctrine which seeks to limit the parameters of debate before its even begun.

          10. Clampers Outside!

            A good read on the subject is Alice Dreger’s ‘Galileo’s Middle Finger’ about her decades long fight on both the ideological side of trans activists, then over to the science side, back to the ideological, and back again to the science side again…. it’s truly fascinating!

            Her work helped stop doctors from making decisions about cutting up infant genitalia because they looked weird, to put it simplistically. But the book is way more than that.
            Short bit on it here – https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/books/review/galileos-middle-finger-by-alice-dreger.html

          11. Jesús, María, and Josépha

            “Political correctness is basically good manners.”

            I think that one will stand up in court OK. It’s basically showing decency to people and narratives you don’t agree with, regardless.

          12. SOQ

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria.

            You said: irreversible psychological and physiological harm and should not be allowed and/or encouraged under any circumstances.

            Most people who transition are perfectly happy afterwards because they go through years of counselling and screening beforehand so it is very rare for someone to regret it.

            Now if you want to argue what is or is not a real woman then I suggest you start with those who have had a hysterectomy or were a victim of female circumcision. Or with men, those who had testicular cancer, you being so such a perfect specimen and all.

          13. Sentient Won

            45 percent of transgender people who undergo hormone therapy attempt suicide.

            That’s ten times higher than the rest of the population.

            Needlessly cutting your bits off because “feelings” is not the same as surgical interventions to prevent the spread cancer.

            But you know that.

          14. SOQ

            It is true that trans people have a much higher rate of suicide, mainly because they are dealing with other people’s hangups.

            Now you can swoop in and out of here with your enlightened <20 'knowledge' but a serious question, have you ever actually met anyone who was transsexual?

          15. Sentient Won

            “have you ever actually met anyone who was transsexual?”

            Yes. He seemed lost, lonely and miserable. He alsoo had pair of silicaon breasts that really didn’t suit him.. But considering Transsexuals are only 0.3% of the population it’s not something I deal with on a daily basis.

            “mainly because they are dealing with other people’s hangups”

            Not true. They are dealing with their own hang-ups: Their “medical condition”, as you describe it.

            Cross-dressers I have no problems with. Drag Queens can be fun. But wailing that you were born with the wrong genitals gets no sympathy from me.

          16. SOQ

            It is true that Trans suicide rates are higher but as recorded violence against them is far higher too, it is no surprise that so many try and kill themselves. In other words, in exactly the same way as gay people, because of other people’s hang-ups. Where is this 40% suicide rate because of hormones coming from? At least provide some real data to back up your claim.

            I have known a number of Trans people and they all seemed not just happy but also relieved to now be themselves. It is a recognised medical condition worldwide so if you are going to pass judgement on medical conditions, you will have a very long list. But really, it’s not their problem at all now is it? It’s yours. Alt Right appear to have a particular problem with Trans people, mainly because they prove that this gender segregation thing is just plain nonsense.

          17. SOQ

            Gender dysphoria is not a sexual orientation. I personally know of one MTF who still has a female partner.

            If you think this is just about ‘bits’ then you really don’t know much about the subject. Go read the wiki link I posted above for a start.

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          GIVE women to incels to make them less rapey and abusey. Handmaid’s Tale as documentary

          1. Nigel

            Aside from that (Mrs Lincoln), I’m surprised that someone who thinks you can’t be moral without religion gets so much respect and admiration from this crowd.

          2. Clampers Outside!

            @Nigel, it’s simply being a discerning and civil listener.

            I don’t agree with JP on the point about religion being the bearer of morality, but I do agree with a lot of his other stuff.

            Not everyone, thankfully, is like you, in being dismissive of others because of a disagreement on one (or more) issues like your good self.

            It was after all, the whole point of having Sam Harris there as he completely disagrees with JP on that point. But, Sam, JP and Murray all have the ‘good manners’ to conduct themselves in debate without being dismissive of all that each have to say.
            And is on that, that I believe, you sell yourself short by dismissing everything. And you are dismissive, because of a couple of points your dogmatic ideology forbids you to believe. It is, as you clearly demonstrate, closed minds like yours that polarize through your absolutist need to agree with everything or nothing.

          3. Nigel

            You have, upon disagreement, called me a maoist, a loon, demented, deranged, a postmodernist, a blank slatist, a regressive leftist, a muppet. You have LOLled, golfclapped, ROFLed, head-desked, and possible LYAO. You need to not lecture others about being a discerning and civil listener. Petersn’s a despicable intellectual light-weight self-help guru gulling MRAs, incels, the alt-right and the alt-right curious. What little time I spare to comment on him is more than he deserves.

          4. Clampers Outside!

            Pffft! I guess I have lowered myself to your level somewhat on occasion.
            But Jaysus, don’t be playing the innocent pup. You’re well passed that. There was little of the intentional personal insults on this site of the calibre you throw out until you arrived, in fairness. You set the bar.

            And remember the times you ran up and down the comments repeatwdly calling me a liar… and when I posted the proof? …or are you still in denial….. reap what you sow Nigel. Reap what you sow.

            And today, you couldn’t find a decent relevant response all day… so you’ve just gone off on one here, again…. well, boo fuppin’ hoo!

          5. Nigel

            I can’t think of a greater encomium than to be credited with being single-handedly responsible for the level of personal insults on Broadsheet. I’d like to thank my parents and the academy and the little people of Broadsheet without whom i would have no-one to call pus-filled crapweasels.

            Why would I waste my time posting decent relevant responses when you invariably pretend to not understand them in order to get out of responding? I never claimed to be particularly civil, but I’m not the one demanding discernment and civility in others. Petersens’ a hack capitalising on the alt-right’s craving for intellectual validation and credibility. All this nonsense about victim culture is just edgelords incubated in Gamergate taking their rape-threat culture mainstream.

          6. Clampers Outside!

            The “little people” haha! Oh you and your ego.

            I guess, crediting you with it all, rather than you and ages others was a bit much. Take this as a correction.

            On the second bit, no. If you’re being vague, and it appears to be intentionally so, and you refuse to clarify, then I just will not respond. It is that simple. We’ve debated your argumentation style before Nigel. No need to go over it again, thanks.

          7. Nigel

            ‘I guess, crediting you with it all, rather than you and ages others was a bit much.’

            NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO REEEEEEEEEEEEALLLLLLLLLLLLY?

            As for the rest you’ve come a bit of a way from LOLling your way out of an argument when you can’t hack it but it’s the same thing in the end.

          8. Clampers Outside!

            Sorry ’bout that typo, ….yes, really. You’ve come a bit of a way from labeling, but just a bit. Keep it up.
            I haven’t backed, or LOL’d as you say, out of this at all. And, have a lovely day Nigel :)

    1. Nigel

      Every member of that audience is a member of Rainbow Seal Black Ops Team Six with Medals Of Honour from the Battlefront so it shouldn’t be a problem.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        Every?
        To include, what I’ve read to be, the 15-20% estimated audience members who were women as you have is hilarious!

        And it s demonstrative of your love of identity politics, and IDs inherent view of people as groups, thereby denying people can be seen as individuals.
        That is, your view is ideological, and closed minded… even if used as a joke, and a poor one, the point is the still same :)

          1. Clampers Outside!

            LOL! I didn’t say that :) ya silly. You generalised on a game type. That being first person shooters. The vast majority of women gamers do not play that game type.

            “About half of casual puzzle and atmospheric exploration games are played by women, too.
            The gender ratio plummets when we get to first-person shooters, tactical shooters and racing games. At the bottom of the chart, a mere 2% of sports game-players are women.”

            So few play the game type you describe (ie FPS games) the numbers are grouped in with two other game types – including tactical and racing – and still only comes to 2% women.
            https://kotaku.com/study-shows-which-video-game-genres-women-play-most-1791435415 There are plenty of studies out there that show similar results.

          1. Janet, I ate my avatar

            we should have a best date night ever thread in the interest of positivity plus
            nosey

          2. Cú Chulainn

            Fecking hell.. I’m glad I missed that very informed (yeah, no messing) debate.. I couldn’t have just thrown off opinions as facts.. ;)

  4. Peter Dempsey

    Jane Ruffino on Jordan Peterson:
    “I have neither the stamina nor the patience to argue with anyone who thinks this guy is anything but a sad right-wing charlatan who managed to fail upward his whole life. But here is an article you can mine for your arguments with mediocre white dudes who think this guy is the messiah.
    Apparently he is currently arguing with bots on twitter.”

    1. Jesús, María, and Josépha

      Jane Ruffino would know all about charalatans, tweeting from Sweden about Ireland yet desperately trying to get onto #marian and writing guff about innovation in the SBP despite not having a clue about the subject.

      Remember her walking away from that startup and yelling about diversity guidelines for tech conferences?

      Sweden? Diveristy?

      Thanks for not including the link.

      1. Huey Luas on the News

        Jane Ruffino? Would you ever go and … find a credible professional… serial East Coast virtue signaler and WomenOnAir yeller.

    1. Clampers Outside!

      I wouldn’t say that, she was an active listener, and came back with relevant questions. And certainly did appear properly prepped for the interview. Schooled? No, I wouldn’t say that. Open minded, and not intent on an attack like so many of his other interviews, I would say that.

      1. MaryLou's ArmaLite

        She willfully misunderstood what he meant by high achieving women in their 30’s prioritizing family over work and tried to make it something it wasn’t.

        1. Clampers Outside!

          I’d have to listen again… if she did, she didn’t fight him on that, as he made that point clearly….

          Now that I think about it, I remember her agreeing that women in their 30s make the choice to prioritise family, and Marian said it was a good thing.

    2. curmudgeon

      Miriam wasn’t presenting that show, she’s on during the week, that’s Marian Finucane.

  5. Cali

    I was one of the women at the show last night and it was brilliant to see so many people there. I don’t agree with absolutely everything Peterson says, but he is very well informed, intelligent and caring. Personally, I love what he teaches. I find that most people who put him down simply have not listened to what he is actually saying.

    1. SOQ

      He certainly is articulate and well thought out. He makes an interesting point about gender profession choices. Like engineers = men and nurses = women etc. It is actually true. Engineering is a very male profession. Sort of makes you wonder if this 50/50 balance will ever be achievable or if it should even be a target in the first place.

      1. Cú Chulainn

        What really needs to happen is for us as a species to come to terms with the fact that we have conquered the world (if it doesn’t fall on our heads..!) and we now need to organise our society better. Men don’t need to ‘provide’ and women don’t have to ‘mother’.. we can live, survive and be happy.. what a place for us to have come to. We just need to tweak the incessant race. We can all be happy. Well, more than just occasionally happy at least..

      2. Lobster

        As an actual engineer who is a woman, this really annoys me.
        Breakdown of gender in college courses is much more equal compared to that in the workplace. Ask any woman engineer about her professional experiences to understand why. I don’t know any woman in this industry who hasn’t experienced some brutal harassment. There are engineering managers who openly say they will never hire women as engineers. Innate interest is only one component in the reason people choose careers. How many all girls schools encourage students to do technical drawing or applied maths? Both of which help develop interest in engineering and related subjects. While 50:50 might not be the best goal, trying to reduce discrimination would be great, and this crap about how women don’t want to be in this field anyway just removes the incentives to do that.

        1. SOQ

          So where do the rest go then?

          I am not an engineer but I have worked with plenty and the women were few and far between.

          1. Lobster

            Some of them go back to college and retrain at something else, some migrate into admin or quality roles. And some of us stick it out and vent at each other whenever it gets too much. I will say it varies by industry too, more women engineers in it or medical device than in traditional manufacturing, more in traditional manufacturing than rail etc. But women don’t jump from this, they are pushed.

          2. SOQ

            You are probably right lobster, I really don’t know. All I can say is that in the engineering outfit I worked for, HR would have bundled them into a back of a van and speeded back to the office once they found one.

            If you accept that the genders have different outlooks, then it follows that their professional choices reflect that difference, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. It is not the whole story by any means but I personally find MTF trans people to be most insightful on this subject myself.

            IT is not known as being a sexist industry and yet, computer science is at least 2:1. It shouldn’t be difficult for the universities to publish data on gender choices in Ireland. And for the record, Peterson is very guarded on ‘da gays’ and so pretty sure he is a trojan but that does not mean he has not got some valid points to make too, at least before he reveals his true colours.

          3. Lobster

            HR will say they want to hire women as engineers, but bless them they poor things just can’t find any. HR will not overrule engineering managers in hiring decisions though, it’s naive to think they would.
            I will also say, we have personal networks from college and work, where we warn each other about some companies. If I know 2-3 women who have left a place because of harassment, they won’t even get me to an interview, I’m not willing to waste my time like that. So you have situations where some ostensibly identical companies have very different demographics.
            I appreciate you have experience working in an engineering company, but I’ve been involved in interviews for engineering positions on both sides of the table, and have more direct experience of these specific issues in my workplaces, rather than from the outside looking into a different department.

        2. D

          What was the gender breakdown when you went to college and what is the gender breakdown you are facing now? Was 90% male in college and 90% male now.

          1. Lobster

            I was talking about the breakdown in college compared to that in the workplace, wouldn’t know about the college breakdown now. High rates of attrition as I discussed above.

    2. Huey Luas on the News

      Good point. Where differences of thought emerge and people can discuss them reasonably without hashtags well that’s when real learning on both sides can happen.

      Eibhir

  6. Jesús, María, and Josépha

    France won! Live La France!

    Freedom Fries all round in McDonald’s!

  7. john f

    For anyone interested in this topic the Joe Rogan experience interviews are very good.
    I will include the link for one of them here but there are many more
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xc7DN-noAc

    I like the format of these interviews as well as some of Peterson’s lectures,
    there is no real-time limit on the videos and ideas are properly fleshed out and discussed. The problem with most news broadcasts is they have to be concise, shortened and edited. Major talking points are often misrepresented, with longer presentations this does not happen.
    I have read his book and I agree with many of the concepts in it. His viewpoints are mostly valid.

    1. Scundered

      The book contains a lot more references to Christian religion than I bargained for. I think that weakened many of his points. In live interviews he seems to avoid that.

  8. Dr_Chimp

    Take responsibility for your own actions, own your circumstances (whether subjectively fair or unfair) and be the best person you can possibly be. JP comes out with some borderline stuff (the incel thing was not meant as how it sounded by the way) but the core message of his books and lectures is overwhelmingly positive

  9. Lilly

    The point he makes about female lawyers opting out because they choose not to do the 80-hour week: why must it boil down to brute force? Why not make room for people who are not dull enough to want to work an 80-hour week, even if they have the stamina? He says the market dictates, but that’s nonsense. Colleagues can organise themselves any way they like. This is 2018, not 1980.

  10. Crimea River

    If people are so concerned Jordan Peterson is misogynistic, far Right white supremacist then why was there zero protests for or against him? One reason may be, The people who don’t like him made no effort to oppose his talk because the venue is 3 Luas stops from the city centre, so it seems way too much hassle to travel to stand up for what you believe … And it was a Saturday evening so it’s hard to protest on your day off work or college, you know probably had shopping to do meet friends.
    Another reason may be the fact the venue was not a college organised event. So lecturers from the leftist humanities departments, particularly UCD, are on holidays and so have no ability to muster up a few hardcore, activists “students” into a ideological frenzy

    1. Lilly

      Protest or not, he’s laughing all the way to the bank. I’ll probably read his book soon, whereas before last weekend, when I saw it in the bestsellers section of Hodges Figgis, I thought, ‘oh not another dreary self-help book’, and scuttled past it like a lobster on speed. Anything that gets people thinking and debating can’t be bad.

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