Yesterday.

Buswells Hotel, Dublin 2.

Paul Murphy TD speaks on Solidarity’s Birthright Citizen bill which would give automatic citizenship to anyone born in Ireland and will be put to the Dáil tomorrow.

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship (Restoration of Birthright Citizenship) Bill would, according to Mr Murphy, undo the “Trump-style citizenship laws” introduced following a 2004 referendum on the issue.

Top from left: Chairperson of Migrant Women Sandra Ruit,  Paul Murphy, Silibaziso Ndlovu (Tina) and Gino Kenny TD.

Solidarity

Leah Farrell/RollingNews

64 thoughts on “Born Equal

  1. Joe Small

    The pre-2004 situation used to lead to heavily pregnant women from certain countries travelling here so their child would get an Irish passport. This was dangerous for the mothers and an abuse of the system.

    1. phil

      you are conflating 2 issues, there may be a problem with immigration , though I’m not sure about that, I havent had to to maturely sit down an inform myself , however if you are born in Ireland , as far as Im concerned you are Irish ….

    2. Spaghetti Hoop

      That is a very true fact which is easily overlooked. The maternity wards admitted a high number of new immigrants* in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

      *not refugees

    1. dav

      your fear/ hated of people for having a different colour of skin or different religion to your own, should be enough of a reminder..

      1. Scundered

        so should people not be scared of the African gangs which are getting well established in Blanchardstown and Balbriggan? Why would that be racist for example?

        1. millie st murderlark

          You know Balbriggan well do you?

          Because I do. And it’s rather something of an exaggeration to say ‘gangs’ at all. I see groups of kids hanging around Millfield a lot but that’s kind of it.

          1. curmudgeon

            You’ve got to be kidding me. Balbriggan is now very rough and Lusk was a lovely nice quiet town before they came along. I don’t care what nationality/colour/creed teenage gangs are, I just don’t want them literally terrorizing towns so much so people are afraid to walk through their tiny town centres.

          2. blaghblaghblagh

            Wasn’t there a protest of about 1000 people at Balbriggan Garda station one evening last year?

  2. Rob_G

    This goes to show how out of touch current left-wing political thinking is with the actual views of the working class.

    1. Dr.Fart MD

      paul murphy does not represent all of left-wing politics. just because Varadkar represents near all right-wing, like some kind of hive-mind doesnt mean its the same on the left. If anything, as a leftie, Murphy often harms our cause. He mostly just wants attention, and he knows the more radical his opinions the more spotlight he gets. It harms any real progress as he ends up winding up people instead of showing them how things could be.

    1. postmanpat

      I didn’t earn it. I was born here and I don’t give a toss about Irish nationalism or any nationalism for that matter. If I emigrated I might try to be a model citizen in my new country. In that way immigrants make better citizens with more sense of civic responsibility than the natives.

      1. McVitty

        You might not realize it but you had the privilege of being been born in Ireland. Given your parents were Irish citizens, you have incurred a birthright, whether you value it or not. And just because you have no regard for the history or future of the country and Irish culture, doesn’t mean everyone feels that way.

        Your views are deeply naive – Irish people on the J1 and the young Irish who moved to Australia after the crash by no means have a reputation for being “model citizens”. I live in a place where immigrants don’t even consider the social etiquette and norms, mainly because they are numerous and have not been encouraged to conform to them. It is by no means a better place for it.

        You should probably leave the ivory tower more oven, stretch the legs and get some fresh air – it might even wake you up a small bit.

      1. McVitty

        Given his parents were Irish citizens, he incurred a birthright that gives him protection under the Constitution of Ireland. End of. It’s not complicated.

        1. McVitty

          I guess he’d have to be able to pass a watermelon to appreciate how tough that must have been – kNige ;)

  3. ollie

    2004 referendum added the following to the Constitution:

    1º Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.

    This was passed by 80% of those who voted. Dear Mr Murphy pfo and respect the will of the people.

    1. Iwerzon

      So by that rational we should never have legalised divorce in this country in 1995 as the ‘will of the people’ rejected legalising it in the 1986 referendum by a vast majority.

      1. ollie

        @ Iwerzon
        In 1986 the public voted to keep the constitutional ban on divorce
        In 1995 the public voted to remove the constitutional prohibition on divorce
        Not the same as Murphy ignoring the will of the people.

      2. Rob_G

        Well, I don’t think that divorce referendum in 1986 was as big a landslide as the Citizienship referendum. And just as it required another referendum to overturn the constitutional ban on divorce, it would require a referendum to change the change the constitution this time around (I’m not sure how Paul Murphy’s legislation would get around that).

        1. Cian

          The last 5 words: “is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law“.
          So the Dail can legislate for anyone to get citizenship.

      3. ollie

        legalisation of Divorce was done via a referendum.
        murphy thinks he can override the Constitution.

        Do you understand the difference Iwerzon?

        1. Iwerzon

          Ollie, my question to you is, do you agree it is OK to reject the ‘will of the people’ (e.g. 1986) and question their decision.(1995)

          1. rotide

            Yes, we do it every time there’s a general election.

            That is precisely what elections and referendums are for. What do you not understand about this?

          2. Iwerzon

            Paul Murphy is challenging the 15 year old law on citizenship or the ‘will of the people’ through completely legal, democratic and parliamentary means. If he acts unconstitutionally he will be called out.

  4. The Old Boy

    Ireland’s citizenship as birthright provision prior to 2004 was by that time unique in Europe. The UK restricted its own provision with the British Nationality Act 1981. I don’t know if/when other European countries ever had similar jus soli provisions.

    To describe Irish nationality law as “Trump-style” is extraordinarily disingenuous and misleading.

    1. Rob_G

      In fact, America’s laws a lot more liberal than other countries – they have the issue of many wealthy Chinese women travelling to California in order to give birth there.

          1. johnny

            Total BS as usual Rob-I’ve sat next wealthy Chinese betting more than that on the turn of a card, take a stroll around the baccarat tables at the Bellagio,MGM,Wynn in Vegas and most wealthy Chinese will have way more in chips.There is a school/institute in East Hampton that caters to wealthy Chinese kids,it preps them for US college admissions the school fess are 90,000 a year !

            The link stated that between ” $40,000 and $80,000 to advise them on obtaining visas” and that no arrests had been made but of course you went with the highest number estimated.
            “Birth tourism has been somewhat popular in the United States, with court papers cited in the NBC article estimating that 40,000 children every year were born to women who are in the U.S. on a travel visa.”

            The ‘war’ on immigration is really a war on poor people-rich immigrants have no problem getting visa in the US just ask Sean and Gail Dunne.There are more illegal paddies in the US than the so called estimated birth tourism and anchor babies born annually,its another straw man in the fear and misinformation campaign waged by right wing zealots like yourself against immigrants and refugees.

            “Ireland estimates as many as 50,000 unauthorized Irish are living in the shadows in America. Their government is so concerned that the prime minister has appointed a member of Parliament, John Deasy, to be special envoy to the U.S. Congress. His mission is to work out an immigration earmark for the unauthorized Irish, to find them a pathway to citizenship and get more work visas.”

            https://www.npr.org/2018/01/22/578930256/undocumented-irish-unexpectedly-caught-in-trumps-immigration-dragnet

          2. Rob_G

            “I’ve sat next wealthy Chinese betting more than that on the turn of a card, take a stroll around the baccarat tables at the Bellagio,MGM,Wynn in Vegas..”

            – I don’t really care; what you get up to when you attend those SF fundraisers are your own business

            You seem to be splitting hairs over the definition of ‘wealthy’ – the median annual income in China is less than $13k, so I would indeed consider any Chinese person who has $40k lying around to be ‘wealthy’.

            And I don’t see what this has to do with Irish illegal immigrants living in America, either (though of course they should be evicted even before all of the Mecxicans – they have a much weaker moral argument for why they decided to live in America illegally).

          3. johnny

            More garbage from you Rob-one doesn’t ‘attend’ SF do’s where I’m at-I do a pop in and say hi in the VIP suite before and perhaps chat with a few on the run freedom fighters !
            I hardly hang out or have a few pints and belt out a nation once again it’s not really my thing.
            I make no apologies nor do I hide my belief that the brits should leave Ireland-given the DUP’s recent behavior its a testament to SF that they even managed to get the GFA at all.

            Your statement-
            “they have the issue of many wealthy Chinese women travelling to California in order to give birth there”

            What issue who has this issue where-in Cali or in your head ?

            Now explain what the median income in China has do with your statement above,its another non sequitur,completely irrelavant to your idiotic claim about birth tourists and your fear mongering,that LA/Cali is dealing with pregnant Chinese women dropping babies left and right-you made all that up to further besmirch immigrants and refuges.

          4. Rob_G

            I’ve provided you a link already, I’m not sure how much more I can do.

            People who rub shoulders in Las Vegas with Chinese millionaires probably don’t consider $40k a lot of money, but for ordinary workers like me, it is indeed a large amount of money.

          5. Johnny

            The real issue in the US and Ireland is people like you,spreading false information about non existent issues.I’ve never heard anyone discuss / complain about your so called ‘issue’ of wealthy Chinese coming to the states to have anchor babies-it’s a compete red herring.
            Let’s assume (your link) it’s 50,000 per year,so in ten years thats 500,000-today currently in US there are almost 1 million ‘dreamer’ kids brought here by their parents,that’s a real issue.

            https://www.factcheck.org/2018/01/daca-population-numbers/

            And no I don’t personally consider 40,000 a lot-oh I don’t play baccarat I’m a blackjack and poker type.Finally I don’t ‘rub shoulders’ with anyone,I’ve done lots business with wealthy Chinese/Aisan investors,met many of them in NY/LA and yes Vegas.

            (None them were about give birth)

          6. Rob_G

            One could fill a library with the things that you have never heard of, Johnny.

            Again, no-one on BS is especially interested in your humble brags about your business dealings.

          7. rotide

            No No, Don’t listen to Rob, Please do continue to keep us updated on your international man of mystery lifestyle. Its almost as entertaining as Justsayin’s 5 degrees in Astrophysics.

            There is going to be huge competition for the Didn’t Happen of the Year awards this year.

          8. johnny

            Clearly you are as you keep responding with nonsense about SF and nonexistent /imaginary pregnant wealthy Chinese women coming to America to have their kids.
            Who has ever heard of this issue-the link you found on google is from a ‘magazine’ that was sold by the WaPo for a dollar-who even reads it, was surprised it still existed.
            You are wrong you simply made the whole thing up,I just happened have a bit time this morning to expose your right wing lies and BS.
            If I ever come across in Chinatown hordes of pregnant women I let you know ok, oh hold on you claimed wealthy ones- hm I keep my eye open for you Rob in the Four Seasons or Chateau Marmont!
            Not sure how interacting on a daily basis with wealthy Asian investors is considered ‘bragging’-but carry on.
            Yes the immigration system in the US is broken/flawed but no one has ever mentioned wealthy Chinese people flying here to have anchor babies as an issue-poor ones yes its a problem that they get exploited.
            Wealthy ones have favored Canada’s visa program for a variety of reasons, but some have invested in the EB5 visa program.
            As usual instead of defending the idiotic point you made up you go all ad hominem.

            “The EB-5 program — or, as I like to call it, the millionaires’ visa — is the only visa for which approval numbers have increased during the Trump presidency. It requires a minimum investment of $500,000 in a U.S. venture within a rural, high-unemployment area, or up to $1 million in a metropolitan region, and the project must create at least 10 American jobs. Successful applicants are granted permanent residency for themselves and immediate family.”

            “The president’s own family was linked to potential EB-5 violations earlier this year, when the Securities Exchange Commission launched an investigation into Jared Kushner’s companies for attempting to secure low-interest EB-5 investments from China for luxury real estate projects in New Jersey.”

            https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kim-eb5-visas-trump-administration-20180921-story.html

          9. rotide

            Johnny, you’re the one muddying the waters here. Rob didn’t ‘make it up’ , he linked to a bloody Newsweek article. You then stated that 40k was nothing to chinese people, which is blatantly a load of crap and then went on with all sorts of other guff.

            Go back to your imaginary meetings in the Luxor.

          10. johnny

            Oh gawd here’s the failed editor spelt backwards wading in with more BS-stick to defending those other failures at Montrose.Noticed you loitering around like a desperate ‘John’ at the Port Authority,just waiting,waiting…
            40,000 grand is chump change (that be you pal) to wealthy Chinese,every high end store in NY/LA has staff fluent in mandarin/cantonese specifically to cater to them.
            The Luxor,haha trying be all hip and cool name checking a dump on the strip where you once played penny slots-you will always bore me get over it.

            For the last time there is NO issue in US with wealthy Chinese women flying here to have kids-none.

            “They are the fu’er dai, the Chinese children of nouveau riche parents, and these international students are the big spenders among a demographic already known for splurging on luxury goods.”

            https://qz.com/1417472/national-day-golden-week-shopping-trip-for-rich-chinese-students/

    2. ollie

      The do gooder left wallys love misleading once it suits their agenda.
      No debate, you agree with them or you are racist/idiotic/homophobic

  5. Worlds Biggest Ranter

    Just to pick up on the headline. None of us are born equal and never will be. To some that might just appear a little myopic. I’d argue that’s actually as as factually definitive as can be.

  6. curmudgeon

    Before the 2004 referendum materity hospitals recorded 82% of births were by migrants. Those were anchor babies pure and simple, and that is not how you run an immigration policy. The decision of that referendum put Ireland in line with every other country in the EU.

    1. Andrew

      “Before the 2004 referendum materity hospitals recorded 82% of births were by migrants.”

      @ curmudgeon are you sure about that figure? It seems very high

    1. The Old Boy

      Article 9.2 of the Constitution as inserted by the twenty-seventh amendment reads

      “1º Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.

      This means it is not the set standard or most lax standard allowed, but rather it defines the most rigorous standard permissible. The reason for this seemingly odd structuring is to short out the wording of the “new” Article 2, “It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland…” etc.

  7. McVitty

    The reason immigration is such a hot topic is mainly because we have brainwashed people like Paul Murphy gaining traction through a media that holds the same beliefs and fail to see a link between assimilation to inclusion. They would ruin a nation in 5 years if they had their way….and that’s part of their game-plan.

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