A petition has been set up asking the national broadcaster to reconsider Mr Linehan’s inclusion. The Father Ted co-creator is one of a number of contributors set to feature in the report which will examine the “growth in the number of young people seeking to change gender”. Since 2015, transgender adults have been allowed to state gender identity without requiring reassignment treatment or assessment. Those applying are also able to change the gender on their birth certificates, driver’s licence and passport.

Gulp.

Opposition to Father Ted creator Graham Linehan being on TV transgender debate (Peter O’Dwyer, The Times Ireland)

Petition calls for TV writer Graham Linehan to be axed from ‘Prime Time’ transgender debate (Independent.ie)

RTE remove Graham Linehan piece from upcoming Prime Time show on transgender issues (Change.org)

Update:

223 thoughts on “Inclusion

      1. Nigel

        Trans people don’t deserve anything that comes out of this. Not what he has to say and not the ugly war of words around it, for all that he can’t be let go unchallenged.

        1. Robert

          Trans people also don’t deserve the online hate and vitriol campaigns conducted “in their name” either. Challenging somebody you disagree with is one thing, but the quality of discussion I’ve seen in this area is ridiculous. One side is supposedly antiquated and out of touch, and the other is supposedly woke and enlightened, but I really don’t see anybody acting like an adult.

          1. Starina

            Were you Tone Policing during the last two referendums as well? How do you define acting like an adult?

          2. Robert

            Ooohhhh “Tone Policing” you got me there!

            Meanwhile, out in the actual real world where most of the actual voting went on, I was explaining to friends and relatives in a calm and considered manner what my views were. Many people I spoke to were professing that they wanted to vote such and such a way in spite of the facts just because the quality of the discourse was so bad.

          3. Nigel

            Oh, I agree. You can’t control a stupid verbal cultural war like this. Just because you side with one person in an argument doesn’t mean you can;t be traumatised by the screaming and shouting. But the risk is that if people like this fecker go unchallenged they will shape public perception of the issues, so he gets challenged. That’s the trap, and trans people suffer.

          4. Robert

            I honestly think, (and so does glinner) that a lot of the people challenging him are disingenous third parties (russian bots, bored teenagers) just stirring up the pot. I think a lot of them might even be driven by a conservative ideology and are purposely trying to make things ugly to turn ordinary people away. You see this right across the gamut of social issues.

          5. Nigel

            While almost certainly true, you’d think this awareness would clue him in to what a patsy he is. It doesn’t make his inexpert opinion correct or worth listening to, or absolve him from helping to harmfully explode what is a difficult health issue for a small group of people which needs sensitivity and care across the cultural and political landscape.

          6. Robert

            That’s a very fair point. The fact is though that the discussions in this area are very toxic, and Graham is an exemplar of this. He’s an Irish celebrity who most people can relate to, who has been outspoken on other social issues, and many would be interested in hearing what he has to say. If he’s just acting the bigot, well that will just come across and that will be the end of that. If anything ever brought out the conservative in me, it’s looking at the responses this guy gets on his twitter feed, and the ranting that goes on about him on reddit. He’s a guy with an opinion and one or two fair points – just leave it at that!

          7. Nigel

            I think it’s a broader problem that a toxic debate like this one makes some people instinctively side with the bigot (they often have ‘one or two decent points’ in there) over the other ‘holier-than-thou’ side. What’s right and wrong can become obscured or overwritten by a kind of oppositional defiance disorder. It’s just more attractive to go against people you perceive as moral scolds, because it’s obvious the other side are at best amoral mischief makers, and it’s easy to lose sight of the real harm they cause. This, incidentally, is one reason why Trump got elected. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

          8. millie st murderlark

            I really enjoyed reading this exchange.

            It was informative and enlightening, and so very, very civil. Which is such a pleasure.

  1. Rob_G

    From what little that I know of his views on the subject, I don’t think that I would agree with him, but I don’t really see that as a reason why he shouldn’t feature on a debate.

    1. AssPants

      Ah here Rob G; Graham Linehan does not agree with the hecklers so of course he has to go; sure the damn Snowflakes have a fubb’n petition…….

    2. Nigel

      I would suggest deferring to people with expertise and experience on why he, who has none, should not be treated as if he does.

  2. Ian-O

    He has deliberately gone out of his way to attack a trans person on Twitter to the extent he got not one, but two visits from the police in the UK.

    So, outside of him displaying transphobic attitudes, backed up by nothing more than personal opinion and being a known writer of situation comedies, what exactly qualifies him to be given a prestigious position on the debate panel? I cannot think of any reason? It’s like asking a far right person on to discuss Jewish people FFS.

    But as its RTE and RTE is staffed by amateurs on gold plated salaries so they think they are actually capable journalists, we get a person with a history of harassment towards trans people as a panelist.

    Personally, I’d prefer to see real experts and some trans people debate this, not some comedy hack writer with some previous.

    But that’s just me.

    1. AssPants

      Oh I see, that is quite serious.

      So the chap posted some words on a novelty social media forum and somebody didn’t like it so they called the Police on him, twice!

      Yeah, definitely worth the public dissection of ones character……

      Society really is turning to eat itself with the amount of reliance and weight people put on “digital interaction” and believe that they can read peoples intentions better than a face to face discussion.

        1. AssPants

          Does having a spine enable one to shout loudly from the digital rooftops about the wrongs of others because you read it on Instagram?

        2. Robert

          there’s a kind of irony around one anonymous commenter on a message board urging another anonymous commenter to “grow a spin”. To be honest it seems a bit childish to me. If you’re going to make a statement of any worth just make it, and see what feedback comes back and respond in turn. Don’t destroy whatever faith somebody has in what you’re saying by spitting and stamping like a spoilt child.

      1. Ian-O

        No, you see very little so rather than attempt to inform of why people, especially trans people, might have an issue with his inclusion on this panel, I’ll leave you to post some more buzz word bingo terms like ‘snowflake’ and so on.

        Have a lovely day.

  3. Starina

    Glinner spends 18 hours a day spewing hatred against trans people in the name of feminism, and as soon as a woman challenges him on it the mask falls off and he condescends. Horrid little man.

    @Rob_G, he shouldn’t be on because he’s not an expert on anything (except maybe besmirching my enjoyment of some classic comedy shows). He’s a hate figure only, and PrimeTime were only having him on for the viewership figures of those drawn by his controversy. He should be thrown in the dustbin with John Waters and the rest of those sad little people who are obsessed with others’ genitalia.

  4. Shane Duffy

    Welcome input. Needs vigorous challenging. Which is right, the brain sex or the body sex? Why should we be forced to accept someone’s new gender when they themselves refused to accept the one they were born with?

    1. Nigel

      Why is the input of a non-expert with no experience or specialised knowledge welcome? Why should anyone be subjected to their treatment and medical and health status being determined by this gom sneering on twitter? It’s the equivalent of brain surgery having input from random vox-pops on O’Connel Street.

  5. newsjustin

    Personally, I don’t see why just having strong opinions on a subject (and being a celeb) should get you a hearing on RTE about it. As someone said above, it’d be better to hear from an expert. Preferably a mix of experts, including some who don’t gain business from this subject.

    It is always funny though to see how quick the tide of right-on opinion turns on people, especially celebs. He was a hero when he spoke about repealing the 8th. Now he’s a looney who can’t be taken seriously because of his wrong-think.

    1. Nigel

      While I obviously agree with you on the first part, not understanding why people agree with people on one thing and disagree on another seems disingenuous at best, it being a fairly basic occurrence in human relations. After that it’s a question of how contentious the subject under discussion is.

      1. newsjustin

        Yes. Fair enough. People can/do and should hold different views on different subjects. But you can’t deny, there is a common set of issues that tend to align people on both progressive and conservative lines.

        1. Nigel

          And at base this is a medical and health issue being exploded into a culture war. Even the practical issues of access and safety could probably be resolved with good will, mutual empathy and sensible measures, But no, we’ve got to get our hate on over a small and vulnerable and historically reviled section of the population.

          1. Cian

            :-)
            These comments could equally be applied to the abortion debate. (I mean this sincerely – I’m not having a dig at anyone)

            I think Irish people are a lot more conservative when it comes to transgender than either same-sex marriage or abortion. Possibly because it isn’t as widespread and people find it harder to wrap their heads around it.

            A discussion is good. An informed discussion is better. A hate-free, informed discussion is best! <- referring to RTE not BS

          2. Nigel

            Absolutely. Best of all is parents and kids who have to deal with this are left alone to make informed choices without having to worry about becoming either objects of hate or causes to be put on a pedestal, just as I’m sure most women making their choices about abortion probably feel.

    2. Starina

      Nah, we gave him side-eye during the referendum as well, he was already a known transphobe at that point.

      Bodger, you should note above about the money raised in the last 50 hours on the Twitch stream as a counterpoint to Linehan. There’s a whole #thanksgraham hashtag about it

        1. Nigel

          Watch your tone there or people will think your sneering at the nature of online debate is obnoxious and patronising rather than calm, objective and paternalistic.

      1. Mel

        Are you happy for men to declare themselves women and have unquestioned access to female changing rooms in swimming pools, shops etc.?
        Are you happy with what the Tavistock clinic is doing in the U.K with regard to teenagers and younger?
        Do you fully understand what ‘trans’ and the movement for their rights actually is?
        I don’t think you actually do or indeed understand the issue here; just that it broadly aligns with some vague belief in someone somewhere is being ‘oppressed’ or you think they are.
        Finally do you think the police should be knocking on people’s doors for what they have published on twitter?

        1. Ann

          Yes Mel and the more than 2000% increase in people wanting to transition should be ringing alarm bells for people on all sides of debate. And anyone who has any concerns about this complex issue is dismissed as a bigot, transphope and the disgusting term “terf”. I am glad to see this being discussed. Let’s hope for some sanity

          Ann

          1. Starina

            Ann, if it looks like a Trans-Exclusionary Rad Fem and it talks like a Trans-Exclusionary Rad Fem, it’s a TERF.

          2. Clampers Outside !

            @SOQ
            The UK GIDS / Gender Identity Development Service referral stats are here… the figure percentage wise may sound very high, but as has been reasoned, it is from a very low base and many adults are coming forward with new found acceptance of transitioning. A good thing for adults.
            Many same experts are concerned about kids (as young as age 3) being referred. And it is definitely here that proper regulation, care and understanding is given, and not simply the demands of ideological lobbyists and activists.

            2009/10 – 2016/17 figures: http://gids.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/content_uploads/referral-figures-2016-17.pdf

    3. Ian-O

      ‘Wrong think’?

      If he politely challenged this concept and did so based on facts, that’s perfectly fine.

      It’s how he does it that’s the issue. Plenty of people on Twitter and elsewhere questioning this issue who are not getting calls to their home from the police, should tell you all you need about his stance on this.

      I guarantee there will be other people on the panel who have opposing views but I would imagine they won’t be going on Twitter before, during or after the show to harass trans people.

      It’s not his views, it’s how he communicates them.

  6. Junkface

    Only time will tell how damaging this whole thing is to society (drugs and operations). I think there needs to be laws of responsibility to stop young confused teens getting dangerous gender related operations done on them, that they might regret later in life, or want completely reversed. The parents need to know all of the risks, physically and mentally. There needs to be way more research done in to this, because as time goes on, people are more and more confused in 21st century life.

    1. Nigel

      Yeah, everybody wants to bring in laws to cover medical and health issues that they admit they have no real understanding of but which they somehow think will damage society in vague and imprecise ways. That”ll turn out fantastic, don’t you know. Assuming that parents and kids and medical practitioners who deal with the condition don’t know the issues and aren’t trying to act in the best interests of the long-term health and well-being of child is ridiculous. It’s far more likely that the real harm is done by parents and doctors trying to ignore, repress or misdiagnose the condition to make it go way. This kind of fear-mongering will only encourage that.

      1. Clampers Outside !

        Every child should be protected. Every child agency is regulated. And then why not trans activists agencies who work with kids. That’s his point.

        Cop on. Stop trying to warp his point into some bullpoo you imagined.

        1. Nigel

          He’s not interested in protecting kids, he’s interested in protecting society from kids who are trans and in regulating their treatment in a way that reflects his social ignorance and prejudice rather than the health and medical realities of the condition. It’s literally right there in his first line. Everything about this is about treating trans kids as if they are some harmful thing that needs to be minimised and controlled as if they’re a malignancy. These kids need to be diagnosed and treated. No doubt there will be disagreements by professionals on the best courses, and those treatments will develop over time, but nobody should be hanging over those kids wringing their hands about men declaring themselves to be women and getting into women’s toilets as if they’re monsters waiting to be born. It’s a vile way to treat kids, or anyone.

          1. Junkface

            That’s not what I meant at all Nigel. This is the kind of hysterical judgmental response that does not help anyone. We have to discuss these ideas thoroughly so that parents and kids are more clear about the diagnoses, treatments, operations and consequences of any trans operations. I never mentioned womens toilets either.

          2. Nigel

            I know, you’re coming at this from a good place, protect the children, but I don’t think you can trust anything coming from the likes of glinner or much of the media. But inasmuch as the kids need protection, it’s as much from their scaremongering as from misdiagnosis or inappropriate treatment.

          3. Clampers Outside!

            When kids are misdiagnoses, that’s where the scares come from.

            Mermaids is not an expert group, when one views the content of their workshops. It’s an activist group and has been shown to be so through transcripts of their workshops.
            Reactions to that are not scaremongering, they are real and justified concerns about how activists voices, and ideology, are being placed in importance ahead of proper care, research and science. Not wanting such voices to control the debate is a call for rational and considered views and a halt to ideological claptrap that is* damaging kids.

            *is – not if, maybe or but.
            We need to learn from other countries who allowed these voices become the loudest, and prevent that happening here, and push for proper care of children through actual experts not ideological activists. There are plenty of trans people who agree with the problem of TRAs.

      2. rotide

        “Assuming that parents and kids and medical practitioners who deal with the condition don’t know the issues and aren’t trying to act in the best interests of the long-term health and well-being of child is ridiculous. ”

        Rubbish. Anti vaxers exist to refute your point

        1. Nigel

          Anti-vaxxers are what you get when you this sort of fear-mongering goes unchecked. Autism was being diagnosed in suddenly increasing numbers because of recognition, awareness and improved treatment, but it was linked to vaccines out of fear and bad science.Now people are convinced that of their kid likes wearing the wrong clothes they’ll be drugged and surgically mutilated at the drop of a hat. I expect it’s already too late, and kids with the condition are suffering because their parents have been terrified by this stuff.

    2. McVitty

      The parents are legally responsible for their children – this is where the battle-ground is.

      If a child comes home from school with insecurities regarding their gender, the parent has a right to express concern and demand to know where their child got those ideas from.

      There are advocacy groups that want schools to introduce these ideas in a way that makes it sound like constructive and meaningful things to explore. Through further lobbying, the state is later obliged to support any costs of drugs or operations. Parents have no say.

      And all for what? Children having existential crises at 7 and 8 years of age just so we can have a deconstructed sense of something that should not be important in a progressive society.

  7. Listrade

    I can understand the issues raised regarding trans issues. Surgery for kids, trans competing in sports and many other issues that I think there has to be research, debate and discussion on without name calling. As the issues have come up, it has caused me to think about it wonder what an answer might be but you end up in a quagmire of shouting, reacting and generally odious comments. I still don’t know the answer because there is no nuance to either the pro or con. You’re all in on either.

    We should have this programme and debate, but not with Linehan. He’s on for the exact same reason he still goes on about that one time he was on Radio 4’s Today Programme. The reactionary extreme counter point. It also shows up that maybe this crusade isn’t about the rationale he’s tried to defend himself with to date. He has continually ignored counter arguments by saying that the voice should be from women. Women who are harassed on twitter for voicing their opinions, called terfs, threatened, etc. And he’s right. So why the fupp doesn’t he give up his spot to one of those women?

    I don’t care what he has to say. I don’t care what I think. I want to get my head around something that seems simple, as in yeah of course there should be Trans rights, but clearly opens up questions that I have to understand and don’t at the moment. He isn’t the person to help me on that. The panel won’t be the people to help me on that. I’ll still be stuck in my dinosaur confusion scared to say anything and non-the-wiser.

        1. Starina

          I’ll say it again. If a person is a Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, then they are a TERF. it’s not a slur.

          1. Dub Spot

            It IS a slur. Trans-Exclusionary should be enough. Perhaps Trans Hating Ugly Girl (THUG) works better.

        2. Nigel

          Oh no those poor feminists who want to exclude trans people are being slurred by the term trans-exclusionary feminists.

          1. Robert

            I think it’s when you have people chanting “TERF TERF TERF TERF” at you, the actual meaning is irrelevant.

            It seems ridiculous to me in fact, that people that are woke to feminist issues should be expected to be woke to all other issues too.

            It’s just the standard divide and conquer approach of the patriarchy and you all being played for suckassss ….

          2. Nigel

            Wow, gee ya think feckin hell people have been pointing out that this is a successful effort by the alt-right to divide the left, another reddit/8chan ploy that got out into the wild like pizzagate to wreak havoc, since long before glinner made himself a vector, and pretending that TERF is a slur is just another part of their tactics to claim that they the transpobes are the real victims somehow, oh, looks like you got played too.

          3. Listrade

            As I said. It’s hard to get nuance. I think this comment section has again proven that. There is nuance to be had and debated. But no one wants to listen.

            I hope I’ve done enough to not be lumped in with those you’re saying have fallen for the alt-right liberal divide.

            I know what Terf means but I also see it inserted into debates to any woman who raises any issue. They can’t all be radical feminists. So it has evolved past a minority of exclusive feminists to silence any women who raise a question.

            The question they raise may be born of ignorance. It might just be a matter of helping them find the answer, but like this comment section shows, ask a question, get labelled. It is used to shut down debate.

            If a woman raises the issue of trans atheletes or sports competitors entering and dominating the woman’s game. Why shut down that argument with TERF? If it is easily answered then let’s hear the counter argument, not attack them. What is the answer? I honestly don’t know. I see both sides. That might make me a simpleton, a bigot, or just a weak fence sitter, but these arguments aren’t going to help.

            And if a woman says that they are unsure how they feel about sharing a gym changing room and showers with a trans woman, then again, let’s hear out whether it’s a rational fear or irrational.

            Yes there are TERFs, but there are also issues that need a rational debate even if it is to lay out why they aren’t an issue. It is understandable that there will be featured of the new. We have this whole thing about rape culture and the fear that women have and we accept that and we believe women. But then call them TERFs when they have to accept sharing a communal shower based on how someone identifies. If their fear of attack is rational in one circumstance, it is rational in all. So all I want to do is listen and understand and hopefully find what the answer is.

            But instead, it’s this whole comment section. It’s Linehan.

          4. Clampers Outside!

            Well said Listrade.

            The hippo has form in creating such divisive commentary through throwing around labels like TERF. And now gone off on an alt-right conspiracy…. deluded doesn’t even begin to describe that hippo’s head space.

          5. Robert

            I dunno man, I kind of object in principle to the idea of one group singling out members of another group for not sharing their beliefs. That’s what it all comes down to.

          6. Nigel

            To be fair, when you have an issue divided into two sides, the whole basis for the division is that they’re singling each other out for not sharing their beliefs. It’s hardly weird or strange that they would have terms for each other and that those terns might have negative connotations. If you’re going to label the opposition’s term for you as a slur you’re going to need a stronger case than that it describes you accurately but they chant it in mean-sounding ways. I’d associate ‘slur’ with either a lie of some sort or prejudice that goes beyond not liking you for your opinions.

          7. Robert

            That is patent nonsense. You are reinforcing the us/them dynamic; specifically in this case you are saying “if you’re not with us you’re against us” thus involving people who weren’t involved, or who had interests orthogonal to your own.

          8. Nigel

            I didn’t mean to include you in either ‘us’ or ‘them,’ I was just noting that there is, in fact, an ‘us’ and a ‘them.’ That people outside a discussion can get pulled in and tossed around by either side in a furious and angry debate is not a new or unusual phenomenon.

          9. Nigel

            Oh, please note that my reply was written and posted before Listrade’s went up, so it is in no sense a response to his entirely reasonable points, if that’s part of the confusion. I know it’s time-stamped earlier, but it didn’t appear on my device until much later, no idea why.

          10. Starina

            “It seems ridiculous to me in fact, that people that are woke to feminist issues should be expected to be woke to all other issues too.”

            Look, I know we all have our own prejudices to work on – every single one of us, including me – and nobody is born all-knowing and Totes Woke. Life is a journey of learning. But I do hold my fellow feminists to a high standard and if they aren’t Trans Inclusionary, then in my opinion their feminism is trash.

      1. AssPants

        Did you just make that up right now Starina?…. I am still trying to understand LGBTQURZX+ or whatever the abbreviation is today?

        1. Spaghetti Hoop

          S must be the uncoolest of them all. A straight, gender-accepting, meat-eating, dairy-swilling, wheat-tolerant old bore.

        2. Starina

          what is actually wrong with all of yous that you have so much venom towards people who are just trying to live their lives?! It’s obviously completely disingenuous to claim “what about the children”

          1. Robert

            because they’re rude and annoying, self-righteous, sanctimonious, often driven by emotion more than reason and they simply can’t bear to hear anybody express an opinion that is at odds with theirs. Like I’m all for respecting people with different outlooks, opinions and experiences but when they’re accompanied by all this outrage and entitlement they become unbearable.

      2. rotide

        Cool, so I can call people from Pakistan Paki’s then?

        I mean, it is literally just a contraction of the word Pakistan in the same way that Scot is just a contraction of the word Scotland.

        It doesn’t matter that it’s been used as a slur, right?

        Silly person Starina.

        1. Nigel

          No. Because ‘Scot’ doesn’t hold the same negative and racist connotations as ‘Paki’ does. One can study the process whereby one word is a racist slur, one is a neutral national identifier, and another is an identifier for someone you bitterly disagree with, I’m sure it’s a fascinating linguistic phenomenon and not some strange alien influence beyond our comprehension.

    1. newsjustin

      I haven’t seen the Channel 4 programme that she featured on, but I heard Stella O’Malley interview somewhere on Irish radio recently and she seemed a balanced, reasonable voice on the topic. She’s a psychotherapist who has her own personal experience of the matter.

  8. bobby gale

    he tweets soooo much. does he spend any time with his wife/family/friends? are they not like “ah here, can you take a break from needlessly attacking people for their decisions on their lives that doesn’t impact you or anyone else in any way?” .. i’d imagine he’d respond muttering stuff about having to crush them all, while shuffling away to a quiet corner.

    1. Robert

      I think there might have been a point where that was the case, and he did indeed leave twitter for a while but was then called a coward for leaving so not sure if there’s any way he can win. Anyway like I said there might have been a time when people could have said “hush now” but I think it’s gone way beyond that. From what I can see it seems to be more the way the online community deals with unpopular opinions (insults, memes, actual defamatory comic strips) than the matter of substance itself. On those grounds I’d be urging him to “bat away” …

  9. Junkface

    Gender issues are getting too many heated arguments and attention everywhere nowadays. What percentage of the population does this effect? Are people able to ask questions about it all without getting shouted down and called intolerant? Its all hysterical most of the time from what I have seen on twitter. And gender pronouns, how many are there now (8,12,20?) and are we all expected to know what they mean, and how to use them? I find it very confusing. Where is this all going? I can imagine that the next Olympics will be scattered with incidents and arguments around Trans athletes, competitive fairness etc. We need big, proper debates on this, available on YouTube and TV.

    1. Clampers Outside !

      True !

      The issue is not just what percentage does it affect… but more importantly why is the number of so called diagnoses growing so rapidly.

      Too many (mis)diagnoses resulting in kids being put on hormone blockers (and done so, unbeknown to parents); and more being readied for surgery without proper consultation. This is what happens when TRAs are kowtowed to without any proper scrutiny. All charities dealing with kids should be subjected to proper scrutiny.

      It’s why Mermaids in the UK was under investigation. The Cheif Executive is a Mum of a child she took to Thailand for surgery. She’s not an “expert”, she’s a parent. Mermaids campaigns for kids under 16 to be allowed surgery… “Her view is disputed by NHS gender specialists who say intervention is not always right.” https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/child-sex-change-charity-handed-500-000-by-national-lottery-dvbt7t2kb

      TRA’s consider the Cheif Executive of Mermaids qualified to speak on trans issues, then why not Linehen? Both are parents. That’s their qualification.

      In that regard, it does not matter if one has any personal experience of trans issues, one can simply be a brother, sister, mother or father to someone who has a mental health issue being diagnosed / misdiagnosed which means anyone has as much a right to be in this debate as any so-called “expert”, who are as often as not, activists and ideologues, and not scientists, or genuine medical or psychological experts.

      So if TRAs, or simply, non-expert “activists” are allowed in these debates, then there is no reason Linehen shouldn’t be allowed in the debate…. regardless of the fact that I don’t particularly like the guy.

      1. SOQ

        RTE are investigating trans law in IRELAND clamps and you are going off on a rant about extreme cases in other countries?

        You may not see the similarly between transphobia and how gay people were treated 30 years ago but I sure as hell do so before you go any further, let me ask you a question.

        How many trans people do you actually know? How many times have you actually took the time to sit and chat with someone about the social problems they face?

        1. Clampers Outside !

          You’re missing the point.
          Diagnoses are not being made correctly. Therapy such as that your friends got is not being done. Kids are being diagnosed without such proper care.

          Learning from these other countries mistakes is very important to help avoid making the same mistakes here.

          1. SOQ

            Do you have an actual spec of what primetime plans to cover? You breeze over the fact that transsexuals in Ireland have serious legal difficulties as things stand and assume it is about ‘converting’ impressionable kids.

            I will check later but to my knowledge there is NO treatments for underage in Ireland and while like everything else in life the are a few, a very few, who regret thier decision, the vast majority do not.

          2. Clampers Outside!

            No, I do not have a spec. Nor do you.

            I believe you’re sincere SOQ. And believe me, I am too.

            What I’d I know of the spec, is that there is a discussion on law. That is, law around treatment of trans, or possible trans persons. That would include treatment of kids. And in that regard, everything I’ve said still stands. We must learn from the mistakes of other countries rather than repeat them.

          3. Joan the Moan

            Now you’re just lying to push this insidious agenda.

            Transitioning regret is a huge issue for the people who have undergone surgery in service to this hateful philosophy.

            https://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-new-taboo-more-people-regret-sex-change-and-want-to-detransition-surgeon-says

            These stories of regret undermine your philosophy so of course you will ignore them. You’re not alone in this behavior, but the fact that you ignore the real world consequences and actual human regrets after unnecessary surgery means you’re preying on impressionable minds so you can prove how ‘woke’ you are.

            Disgraceful.

          4. Nigel

            Why would people find themselves filled with regret in a world where people think their condition is, what was it, a mental illness turned into a sexual fetish? Where they’re treated as predators and freaks, who can’t compete in sports or go to the bathroom without fear of ugly controversy? Why oh why.

          5. SOQ

            You are posting an article about transgendered people from the Telegraph then claiming as evidence? Good for you.

            It’s not natural.

            It’s not normal.

            It’s just a phase.

            That’s what I heard 30 years ago about being gay, and I hear it all again in this thread.

            BY LAW, NOBODY UNDER THE AGE OF 18 CAN EVEN BEGIN TREATMENT HERE.

        2. Mel

          You are completely missing the point but if you want to equate homophobia to this fire away. You need education

      2. Junkface

        That Times article! I had no idea how far into crazy land this had gone already! The Mermaids charity pushing kids in to operations and using emotional blackmail on the parents is just flat out wrong. Now they are funded by the UK Lottery!! This is too crazy. Everything needs to slow down.

    1. Mel

      That man that dresses up as a woman, and owns a pub, Rory O’Neill, he could become President one day.
      He seems to have been given plenty of airtime to talk about repealing the eighth amongst other things. Nobody seemed to have an issue with his ‘lack of expertise’ .

    2. Spaghetti Hoop

      Are we ‘backward’ for not having a Trans person in government? And we were so forward a century ago.

    3. newsjustin

      Quick, quick, we need a token trans person to run for the Dail so that we can show the cooler countries we’re not backward. Please, somebody find a trans person asap.

      Heh, what if we convinced about a 3rd of the TDs currently identifying as male to identify as female? Overnight we hit our target for female representation in the Dail and get a load of trans people in there too.

  10. SOQ

    If his reputation is to be believed then I don’t think this guy is in any way suitable to be on that show. RTE had an opportunity to educate people on a subject which most of the general public do not understand but instead, have invited someone who will just spout ignorant and ill informed prejudices.

    The idea that every young person is going to be handed drugs and treatment upon a first visit is absolute rubbish. People go through years of therapy before even being considered for treatment.

    1. Mel

      Years of therapy ? Not true, you need a bit of education on the subject yourself. Mr.Linehan has at least done that.

      1. SOQ

        I am one of the few people on this site who actually knows people who have transitioned and yes, they both had years of therapy before hand.

  11. Mel

    You are assuming a lot about you being one of the few. Are you appointing yourself to something?
    Your friends may well have had years of therapy but that is not what is happening in the U.K.
    Also when you say ‘transitioned’ what exactly do you mean? If you mean men who have had their male genitalia removed, then they are still men, they are NOT women and they are not anything else. They are just men.

    1. AssPants

      Careful Mel; you simply can’t identify something as to what it looks like nowadays…. you do realise there are people in society who are “Gender Fluid” and it is considered an offense to assume they are male or female by simply looking at them and identifying the normal characteristics of a male or female human being.

      ………………………………….

  12. millie st murderlark

    Wow. Glad I decided to stay on the sidelines on this one.

    I literally know next to nothing about this so I’ll leave it to the experts…. right???

        1. Clampers Outside!

          The hippo already screamed that above :) It’s all an “alt-right” conspiracy against genuine trans persons.
          Ya couldn’t make it up!

          1. Nigel

            Wait. Now just hang on there one feckin minute now and we get one think feckin clear right here and right now, sunshine. Does the Brightly Painted Inanimate Metal Object Used For Immobilising Stationery Vehicles think my avatar is a hippo?

          2. Clampers Outside!

            So it is… forgive me, my eyesight’s not what it used to be. It’d have been nice of you to correct it earlier.

            Bore it is… I mean boar. Thanks.

          3. The Old Boy

            Ah, Wenceslas Hollar! I had a print of his Long View of London from Bankside in my office for years. My poor ageing eyes weren’t assisting.

          4. Nigel

            How long and how often have you been referring to me as The Hippo? I had no idea you were addressing me until today. See what being a twit gets you.

          5. Cian

            @Nigel
            Is it related to Matthew 7:6?

            “Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

    1. Junkface

      Ricky Gervais did a whole joke routine about dead-naming (Jenner) in his Humanity show on Netflix. How do people feel about that? Is he suddenly anti Trans/ actual Hitler or does he have a point? Because he makes some very sharp observations about the issue.

      1. Ian-O

        While I haven’t seen Gervais’s routine, my understanding of it is that he is attacking Jenner first and foremost and does bring gender into it, its not all out assault on trans people.

        Also, its a comedy routine from Ricky Gervais so expect it to be vitriolic. You’d hardly watch a Frankie Boyle or Jerry Sadowitz routine and expect it to be Les Dawson ”mother in law” jokes, would you?

        This is a discussion forum, not a comedy club, that Linehan was invited onto, not comparable.

    2. rotide

      Seems like the trans activist was just as nasty as glinner , doxing his family.

      Buzzwords like ‘deadnaming’ only add to the hilarity

  13. Daisy Chainsaw

    Take the word Trans out of the commentary and replace it with the word Gay or Lesbian, then see just how irrational and bigoted the argument is.

  14. ALAN

    Should a man who transgender to a woman be allowed to take part in women’s sport? Contact sports they would have a distinct advantage. Already seen an MMA fighter who changed in there 30s and hospitalised a couple of opponents. In track and field events in the US there are now two transgender athletes dominating the college ranks. A wrestler who transgendering to a boy won a national title had to wrestle girls even though the person was taking testosterone which would have enhanced their performance.

    1. Nigel

      It’s an interesting and sensitive question and I would like to see a lot of careful, measured and informed debate before forming a final opinion, so we could be a while here waiting.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        Good to hear.
        Maybe you’ll stop your spread of hate and demonisation, throwing TERF around like a child for a change then.

        1. Nigel

          I’ll not be told by the idiot calling me a hippo what I can and can’t call anyone. If I think someone’s a TERF I’ll call them one, if I think its appropriate to do so. But since you accuse me of throwing it around, I’ll point out that to the best of my recollection I think the only time I’ve actually directed the word at anyone or anything was when I said i thought that poem was a bit terfy Am I remembering wrong, or is this is another of your lies about me?

          1. Clampers Outside!

            You’ve used on a few occasions prior to that.
            And your insistence on continuing to use it just contradicted your previous comment, good lass.

            *slow clap*

          2. Nigel

            I have no memory of using the word except in the instance I mentioned (‘terfy,’ about a poem) and discussions about its nature. Prove I’ve been throwing it around or a liar be. Again.

            Reserving the right to use a word, isn’t the same as using a word. Idiot.

          3. scottser

            clamps, me old segosia. i have noticed that you have a bit of a grá for gender issues and generally make quite cogent comments on the topic. having said that, why do you choose to use the terms ‘lass’ and ‘pet’ as insults? why would you think a female name or trait should cause offense to someone? it does you no favours, is all.

          4. rotide

            As much as I hate tio interupt your flirting folks, isn’t the reason he calls you a hippo because your avatar is …a hippo?

          5. Cian

            @Starina
            If we’re talking avatars: yours looks like a strawberry shake with a stripy straw bending out the top….

          6. rotide

            Ok, it’s a boar.

            In my defence I stop reading when you and clampers go to the no reply branch of the comment tree.

    2. Starina

      Alan, your sports point here seems a little contradictory. You first refer to someone born m who transitions to f and participates in women’s sports, but then you talk about someone born f who transitions to m and is forced to still participate in sports as f. No, someone who is transitioning to m should not be made to compete in sports as f. That’s not their gender.

      I mean, I’m not sure why I’m even making this point as you’re obviously coming from a place of fundamental misinterpretation of transgender people, wilful or not. But I digress.

    3. rotide

      This row has been going on for quite a while and no amount of experts have managed to solve it.

      The easiest solution would be to just ban trans athletes from M and F sports (and many fairly decent arguments could be made for and against that) but as we’ve seen this still doesn’t solve the intersex problem that athelets like Caster Semenya pose.

      It’s not going to go away and is only going to become more of a problem. Only more of a problem for the women that is.

      1. Starina

        It’s a problem for women when cis women are attacked by TERFs because they don’t present as super duper feminine enough. Such as Serena Williams. It’s really weird to see people accuse her (and others) of being secretly transgender just because she’s not Kournikova.

        But no I agree that it will take a long time to find a solution in the area of sports, because there’s no real precedent.

        1. rotide

          You might not have noticed but I specifically didn’t mention anything to do with the social side of things because it’s completely irrelevant.

          I’m talking about the level playing field problem, not this weeks social odyssey.

  15. Mel

    Profound Daisy! Why am I not surprised that you and the usual suspects here are too silly to grasp the issue here. Much better to be seen on the side of the ‘oppressed’

    Ian Huntley wants to ‘transition’ too. Remember him? These are the people you are aligning with.

    With regard to Stephanie Hayden see below:

    “Hayden has previously accused Sussex University of being a “temple of transgender hate” and supported the campaign to oust female academics if they challenged transgender orthodoxy.
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/oct/07/graham-linehan-police-warning-complaint-by-stephanie-hayden-transgender-activist-twitter

    She was also among the activists who pressurised a billboard company to remove a poster in Liverpool, which said the dictionary definition of “woman” was an “adult human female” because it was offensive.”

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          Why so wound up? Did a trans person park in your space? Save the snit for someone who cares.

  16. Alan

    If you can legally decide my gender regardless of my biology, would I then be allowed to decide what age I am? :)

    1. Starina

      That argument is the trans-related version of “if the gays are allowed to marry, why can’t I marry a dog”

      1. Alan

        No it’s not. If I can decide my gender, why can I not decide my age. I don’t feel like I am 30, I feel like I am 21. Why can I not put that down on a census or some other doc that is my age. If I do all the fitness tests and get a physical fitness age of 21.

        1. Nigel

          Body dysmorphia is a medically recognised condition. Lying about your age is insecurity, fear of death or what you do on online dating apps. Also, ‘fitness’ doesn’t have an age. What you are probably feeling like is what it feels like to be thirty, because you feel that way, and you are thirty. Cherish it, sounds like you’re in a good place.

          1. Alan

            If you do a VO2 max test you can get your fitness age. Age dysphoria is medically recognised also. You calling me a liar is a highly offensive statement. That is a form of hate speech and you should be reported.

          2. Nigel

            Yeah, it is offensive, you’re right. Still, though. It’s funny because nobody ever kicked anyone to death because for feeling younger than their age.

          3. Alan

            But I want to be legally recognised. There is so much age bias out there. I am discriminated against constantly every day. So if a person can change there gender, why can’t i legally change my age if I do what is medically necessary to achieve it. It’s just not fair. I go for a job but they want a younger person. If I feel younger why can’t I legally put down what I feel without been called a liar.

          4. Nigel

            Show me on the medical textbook how you can be treated so that the actual passage of time from the moment of your birth until now can be altered surgically or chemically to match your feelings, then we’ll talk.

          5. Alan

            Age dysphoria is a medically recognised condition. Fitness age is medically recognised also. I will even put it to you that you have seen these tests. In fat loss programs you may have seen a participant on a threadmill with a mask on their face doing a VO2 test. They could be 30 but being told they are 70. So if a man who feels like a woman can legally change their gender because they feel like a woman. They feel like a woman and because of that they face discrimination. He maybe not biological a woman. I might not be biologically my age but I feel younger. If I test younger in a VO2 test. I can get surgery such as botox or face lifts. Why can I not then legally change my age? Surely you can logically see my reasoning. Discrimination is discrimination. So if a person can change into a woman regardless of been a biological man. I should be then allowed to change my age legally regardless of my biological age. I can take testosterone to boost my levels of a younger person. Where is your compassion for my situation.

          6. Nigel

            Still waiting for some way to alter the actual measured quantity of time which has passed since your birth, which is how age is actually measured and which has never been altered once in history that we know of. It’s a constant. You can change your name. You can change your hair. You can change your gender. You can’t change your age. Don’t ask me why you can’t change your age when other people can change their gender. Ask the universe, which has made it an impossibility.

          7. Alan

            Starina, that is just not fair. Calling me insincere and grotesque is highly offensive. You accept one form of discrimination over another. You have just shown your true colours and your bigotry shines through. There are many people like Emile Ratelband. Our numbers are growing daily. We shall not be discriminated against. People like you from the alt right need to wake up and listen. It’s just disgusting.

          8. Starina

            Ratelband was trying to test and see if he could delegitimise trans rights by putting a fatuous case through the courts, and you know it. Playing devil’s advocate for the establishment is really lame.

          9. Nigel

            What, idiots who get off on making a narcissistic joke at the expense of people who are often subjected to violence because of who they are? Yeah, you’re not special in that regard.

          10. Alan

            Ye are both hypocrites. You tell me there is no such thing as age discrimination and my position is a joke. How do you think that affects a person’s mental health. Disgusting.

          11. Daisy Chainsaw

            Alan, if you want to be 30 when you’re 70, be 30 when you’re 70. Just make sure to wait for your pension entitlements for another 36 years.

  17. Spaghetti Hoop

    Surely Glinner would be an ideal contributor to the debate due to his stance. Look up ‘debate’. Involves supporters and opposers of the motion.

  18. Dub Spot

    Are you surprised RTE engage with this buffoon looking for notice from the old sod while living in Brexitland? The Irish Times were running to him for a sob story for the Repeal Referendum. Not his wife’s health history, but HIS views. And the Irish Times and RTE are the same holier-than-thou brigade.

    Fupp Off.

  19. Alan

    Nigel states “Still waiting for some way to alter the actual measured quantity of time which has passed since your birth, which is how age is actually measured and which has never been altered once in history that we know of. It’s a constant.”. I man has an XY chromosomes, women have XX. That cannot be changed and remains a constant. Why can you accept both my rationale and the transgender rationale. There are massive similarities. There is huge amounts of discrimination in each. Ye are probably way too young to have experienced it and therefore cannot understand it. It just hard to take your high morale ground. Wait until you are old. Your ignorance is bliss but time will change that.

    1. Starina

      Aw, mate. Any geneticist can tell you that while yes xx and xy are in the majority, there’s many other variations as well. As least get your science right before bringing the transphobia.

  20. SOQ

    I hadn’t time to write this today and you can believe my story or not but, I have no reason to lie.

    I was in the company of four lads last weekend, well men really, around a kitchen table in a small town in rural Ireland. These fellas grew up together and had spent their lives as friends and the craic was good until the conversation came around to another friend who has left for a city about five years previously.

    It transpired that he had returned home for a funeral of a relative except he was now she, post op and fully transitioned. Now you can’t use your ears and your mouth at the one time so I said very little but I will admit to steering the conversation around the table. They genuinely surprised me, in a good way, not one negative comment was made, he was now she, end of.

    The only transsexuals I know have always been that way as long as so I appreciate that it takes a bit of time to get your head round it but here was four ordinary men who had done just that in two weeks. One in particular said that he had never seen her smile like that before and another was a bit annoyed that she had cut contact while doing it. I got the strong impression that if and when she decides to come home, she will be made feel very welcome.

    So you see, it is easy to talk in the trans-phobic abstract when it is not someone you know and care about but when you do, when you really care, it really doesn’t matter as long as they are happy. Those who make a career arguing such abstracts clearly have no experience of the hardship and pain an individual goes through to get to the point of even accepting they are in the wrong body.

    They don’t speak for me and they don’t speak for at least four straight men I know in a rural Irish town. Take your fake ‘think of the children’ and your poo storm somewhere else please, you are clearly out of touch.

      1. SOQ

        The most marginalised community on the Island of Ireland has better things to be doing than swiping stupid clowns out of their way when they do actually get a chance to be heard.

    1. McVitty

      Heartening stuff but what has this to do with what goes on in class-rooms? Because that is where the national dialogue is going to centre.

      If the friends had been 8 years old and hadn’t seen the other friend all summer and he came into the classroom as a she in September and had started a program of hormone suppressants…that’s the scenario. Then you wonder where the ideas came from only to find out an advocacy group encouraged it and that the parents were powerless to intervene. Children are children and are not necessarily equipped to make these decisions – parents as legal guardians are supposed to protect them.

      I can only imagine how hard it would have been to be a transgender person in Ireland 20 years ago but things have genuinely moved on. There is a line that Linehan has identified – and he has been liberal on social issues in Ireland before now…just as the “radical feminists” who see gender as more than a construct.

      1. SOQ

        Who said the prime time thing was anything about classrooms? But as we are on the subject, I pass by two mixed gender schools ever day on my way to work.

        The first has neat blazers and trousers for boys, and the most god awful high waist down to the feet curtains for girls.

        The second has trousers and a puffer jacket for both with the option of a pleated skirt. 9 out of 10 girls wear trousers.

        If appearances are anything to go by, I know which school I’d be sending my children to.

        1. McVitty

          The debate is going to swiftly move to parental responsibility and rights – whether parents should have a say or be obliged to step out of the way as their children are forced into existential questions at the age of 8.

          Ireland has made itself the poster-boy for US style liberal progressivism but this one is going to divide feminist camps. Transgenderism itself has always been contentious in LGB circles – as a gender orientation question that has attached itself to a sexual-orientation issue. Linehan is going to appeal to compassion so it’s going to be very interesting to watch this play out.

          I don’t think the average person has anything against trans people – part of the problem is that they actually feel sorry for them.

          1. SOQ

            I don’t think the average person has anything against trans people – part of the problem is that they actually feel sorry for them.

            Sorry but that is absolute cobblers. Violent hate crimes are the highest of any minority group and discrimination regularly occurs in housing, employment and healthcare. That is not a group feeling sorry for themselves, that is a group just asking to be treated as fellow human beings. Do you honestly think that anyone would choose to be treated in such a manner?

            You people keep trying to set the agenda by talking about children when it is clearly ILLEGAL to medically treat a child for gender dysphoria. We seen the same ‘think of the children’ tact during the marriage campaign except nobody bought it and guess what happened afterwards? Absolutely nothing.

            You may not like the comparison with homophobia but for people like me, it is glaringly obvious. That there is something wrong with these people, that it is somehow their own fault, that they must change. It is lazy scapegoating of the worst kind because you don’t want to be bothered thinking about why they are treated so badly.

          2. Clampers Outside!

            You can generalise like that about people’s concerns if you wish. But I’ve read enough at this point to know for a fact that any agency dealing with children must be under heavy scrutiny and activist groups in the area of trans activism dealing with kids are far from operating on a scientific nor care first basis.

            I’d also recommend reading ‘Galileo’s Middle Finger’ which gives a good view into issues on both the scientific research and trans activism.

          3. Starina

            +1 SOQ.

            Did you know that in the states if somebody murders a transperson and they say they were on a date with them and didn’t know they were trans, they can use “trans panic” as a defence? So many hate crimes have gone unpunished because of this.

  21. SOQ

    Who said the prime time thing was anything about classrooms? But as we are on the subject, I pass by two mixed gender schools ever day on my way to work.

    The first has neat blazers and trousers for boys, and the most god awful high waist down to the ankles curtains for girls.

    The second has trousers and a puffer jacket for both with the option of a pleated skirt. 9 out of 10 girls are wearing trousers. If appearances are anything to go by, i know which school I’d be sending my children to.

    Make sense?

    1. McVitty

      yeah, we should choose gender neutral rather than make people choose blue or pink. I’m with you to that degree – I just don’t think it’s progress to tell a young boy that he’s in a tribe that wears blue all the time and if he’s not 100% sold on blue, then maybe he should open to wearing pink all the time.

      But it’s in keeping with the brainwashed new tribalism that is identity politics…it’s dogmatic enough to not identify it’s own internal contradictions…which con-incidentally all converge on attacking western masculinity and bringing down functional social structures instead of evolving them

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