How Was It For You?

at

Last night.

Demonstrators protesting outside RTÉ studios during the broadcast of a ‘Prime Time’ special on the “exponential growth in the number of young people seeking to change gender, and the implications of the proposed new law allowing them to do so without their parents’ consent” featuring an interview with the writer Graham Linehan (above).

Watch back here

Yesterday: ‘Hurting The People It Was Invented To Protect’

Top pic: GCN

120 thoughts on “How Was It For You?

      1. Rep

        Nobody has curtailed his free speech. He is still able to say whatever he wants on the multiple different social platforms he uses. Unless, of course, free speech only means appearing on an RTE program in which case RTE has repeatedly curtailed my free speech.

  1. Yep

    I don’t believe children under 16 should have the autonomy to irrevocably change their bodies chemistry or undergo surgery that relates to gender reassignment.

    Am I TERF?

    1. postmanpat

      In Canada, certainly, and you would be thrown in jail and/or fined tens of thousands of dollars. Opinions must be kept private.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        No.

        Can I ask someone to make one of those ‘question trees’. Could be called… “am I a terf”.

        The real twist in the branches will be when the person who answers ‘no’ to the under 16 question is trans themselves….

    2. Nigel

      Why do you believe that? Is that belief based on medical opinion and with reference to international best practice? Or is it just a visceral revulsion at the idea of a particular kind of surgical procedure and/or at the existence of people who have undergone it? Early intervention is vital in many, many mental and physical conditions, in such cases the anger would be directed at the delay or denial of such intervention and the harm it would cause. An entire movement based around the unscientific link between vaccines and autism is regarded by most as dangerous and deluded precisely because it encourages the refusal to treat small children, with dangerous results for the children and society as a whole. What is it about this particular condition that draws such strong demands for the withholding of treatment by people not directly affected by it?

      You cannot undergo gender reassignment surgery in Ireland until you are over 18, by the way. My understanding is that there are a number of different approaches to treatment across the world, with different advantages and drawbacks, risks and rewards, and trying to find the right balance needs to be an exercise in clear thinking, medical expertise and good faith. prioritising the needs of the patients, not the needs of the squeamish on the sidelines. I don’t have the expertise to give a definitive opinion on the best approach to treatment. I don’t understand why so many other people do.

      1. Cian

        “You cannot undergo gender reassignment surgery in Ireland until you are over 18, by the way.”

        Can you start non-surgical treatment (i.e. hormone therapy) if you are under 18?

          1. Moonpie

            This is not healthcare – it’s mutilation.

            Why do you hate children so much you want them to volunteer for this barbarism?

          2. Moonpie

            False equivalence to justify your false concern about an emotional confusion you want solved by the destruction of genital organs.

            I’m willing to wager that the removal of your inflamed appendix has made no material difference to your life.

            The removal of your penis however, well that would change things and probably not for the better.

      2. Jumper

        Im sorry, but just to be clear are you comparing the movement to prevent children from receiving vaccines against deadly and possibly fatal diseases to the allowance of elective hormone treatment to under 18s. I understand mental health is a major factor regarding trans people but, with the provision of an accepting environment at home and within a peer group, I cannot see how these two issue are comparable

        1. Nigel

          I’m comparing any number of early interventions – medical, surgical, behavioural, mental health related – with each other in the sense that such interventions exist, have good outcomes in enough examples to suggest they may eb appropriate in a given case, and should be dictated by the most desireable outcome for the patient, not a sense that there is something uniquely awful about a child undergoing this particular treatment, as the anti-vaxxers argue about vaccinations. Again, please note that in Ireland this intervention is post-puberty, which isn’t particularly early as childhood interventions go.

      3. Yep

        No it’s absolutely not because of the reason behind the want of such a procedure or the eventual outcome. It’s that I can almost remember what it is like to be a young teen and when I see them today and how much pressure life can be emotionally, I don’t think a lot of the kids who make this decision at that age would be doing so with a rational thought process. Not that the decision itself for an older person is irrational but that the person, at a young age, has their head all over the place anyway.

        I just don’t believe a child of that age should be allowed and supported (regardless of the reason) to alter their bodies chemistry or undergo surgery. I may come across as ignorant which is fine but I am not coming from a hateful place and I don’t believe others with the same opinion as mine are either.

        Also, I posted this video the other day

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNbGTnA53s

        It seems to be made for reaaalllyy small children who have no clue as to the concepts being put forward in a lot of the videos. Is this stuff really helpful?

        1. Jumper

          I’d agree with you Yep. Adolescence and growing up is difficult enough when, in the most part, you are not only working out who you are but who and what you want in life. Adding another issue to this process cannot, in my opinion, help with this period in young peoples lives. As long as the young person is supported in their lifestyle, surely waiting until you have worked out the majority of the above issues can only aid their possible transition once they have made a decision informed by their own development? And as you said, I am not coming from a ignorant place either. Just concern over adding undue pressure to young people!

        2. Nigel

          The confusions of adolescence and puberty are NOT gender dysphoria, so with sincere respect, you may remember what it was like to be a teenager, but unless you can remember what it was like to be a teenager with gender dysphoria, perhaps you shouldn’t be using your memories to make these decisions for other people? (I’m sorry, I don’t mean to suggest you’re opining out of hate, but a lot of the objections seem to be in part a response to visceral revulsion over the surgical procedure itself.)

          1. Yep

            That’s fair. I’m not trying to equate my experience with that of a child with gender dysphoria. Just knowing the pressures without it can be hard to handle anyway so having that to go through on top of everything is something I can’t really be familiar with.

            I’ve read and watched a fair bit on the subject from both sides and my opinion on the U-16 thing hasn’t changed. I can’t imagine it changing either TBH.

            I’ll bow out now…Have a good day Nigel.

    3. The Bad Ambassador

      I was watching this with my heavily-tattooed, heavy rock loving, 23 year old,son.

      He made the point that when he got his first tattoos he had to prove he was over 18 and that if he’d been allowed get a tattoo. at 14 or 15 he would probably have a westlife logo somehwere on his body and would regret it immensely now.

      I understand having or not having a tattoo is completely different from being or not being male/female. The point I think is this: teenagers don’t know their arse from their elbow so it’s probably unwise to do something so radical that young. Society should by offer support, understanding, compassion, encouragement, acceptance and love but I don’t see a problem with asking people to just wait a few years.

      1. Nigel

        It is different, and it is not done without careful and thorough parental and medical monitoring and supervision and appropriate mental health support. They don’t just hop on a feckin surgical table and yell at the doctors to slice ’em off to get back at Mum and Dad cutting back on their Fortnight playing, you know.

        1. Cian

          Do you think it would it be sensible to allow a child get a tattoo – even allowing for medical monitoring and supervision and appropriate mental health support?

          A 16-year-old wants to get a Westlife (or whatever) tattoo, and she is supported by her parents, and a qualified therapist?

          1. Nigel

            Wait, so now we ARE equating hormone treatment for gender dysphoria with getting a tattoo, which is not a treatment for any medical or health condition I’m aware of?

          2. Cian

            I don’t know.
            Why do people get tattoos? There must be a conscious or sub-conscious compulsion to get one? Getting one leads to a better mental health state (for some).
            I don’t think there is a named ‘medical condition’ for the desire to decorate one’s own body – but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exists.

            But we live is a state that says under-18s should not get tattoos. (albeit a guideline rather than a law).

          3. Nigel

            I would not be confident about venturing an opinion without some reference to the relevant literature. Unless you can come up with a case where parents took their child to a doctor to get a tattoo for medical reasons, and even that would surely be an outlier?

        2. dan

          You don’t actually know what you are talking about. You have a political position and you shoehorn it into every thread on here that you participate in. Again, you don’t know what you are talking about.

          1. Nigel

            Funnily enough my political position is that people who are not medical experts and who have no direct experiences but who do have strong moral opinions should not really be telling doctors parents and patients what to do.

        3. Junkface

          Didn’t they say in the episode that once a young teen begins the hormonal treatment, they start on a path that will change the rest of their lives? From the age of 12 or 13. And that by the time they are 18 years old 80 or 90% of them will have opted for surgery? This sounds dangerous.

          1. Nigel

            All treatments carry risk. There are side-effects, mis-diagnoses and unexpected complications that are minimised but never completely ruled out. It’s part of the reality of health care.

          2. Clampers Outside !

            Yet you have no interest in seeing research on the satisfaction outcomes for those who have had such treatment that lead to surgery.

            And yet, you say that complications are “minimised”. How can you possibly know when on the other post you were outraged and defiant of Dr Caspian’s research request to have such issues investigated.

            What are you making your judgement of minimisation on? A feeling? A sense? That is not minisation, that is guess work and wishful thinking, you cannot possibly know if the research is not done. This method is certainly not the reality of health care, it is the reality of ideology, nothing more.

            More research must be done for there to be any claim of minimisation to have any integrity.

          3. Nigel

            You utter twerp. Health care professionals SEEK to minimise risks in ALL treatments as a matter of course in health care. It’s wildly irresponsible fearmongering to suggest otherwise in one particular area solely because of one research project allegedly running aground and your own personal ideological hostility.

          4. Nigel

            So you agree that given the current state of medical knowledge doctors seek to minimise risks in their treatment of gender dysphoria in the interests of optimal outcomes for their patients

    4. Dub Spot

      Just THICK.

      I am in favour of children under 16 being able to change gender identification and be recognized. With on caveat: they don’t want to get a Graham Linehan haircut. Criminal.

  2. Dr.Fart MD

    why did no one take up the chance to debate Linehan about it on Radio yesterday? I saw the woman who set up the petition and who has been tweeting about it shy’d away when asked. Didn’t see her at the protest either. Seems like people are happier to get involved from behind a computer screen, but must’nt care THAT much about it if they are happy to let him say what he wants on air and turn up the chance to call him out live.

    1. Starina

      I would imagine that’s because “debating” him only amplifies his voice. It’s also very difficult to use facts and evidence to reason with someone using prejudice, emotions and incorrect information.

      1. Dr.Fart MD

        yea but why let him use prejudice, emotion and incorrect information unchallenged? out of the two options (1) let him at it. and be (2) he’s going at it, but you might be able to show listeners hes wrong .. i would go for option 2. I really think it’s as simple as that. Saying “ah ya can’t argue with that kind of person” is a cop out. It’s giving up on the basis that maybe you won’t successfully get your point across.

        1. Nigel

          The most effective way of dealing with horrible people who get national platforms to say horrible things about vulnerable people is an ongoing problem with no perfect solution, but the people on the receiving end will always be blamed and told they are ‘allowing’ things to happen that they have no control over and no perfect response to. Remember last year’s referendum, which showed the loudest options aren’t always the best.

          1. postmanpat

            I would worry about it Nigel , no one watches RTE or any old national platforms anymore, except old farts who will be dead in a decade and old fashioned mindset younger culches, (who go to mass when they go home to visit mammy and daddy. less the elders get angry and have the village bard broadcast the news in the town square )and even they are outnumbered by city folk anyway. RTE is on a death rattle. I don’t know anyone personally that tunes into any RTE produced shows. no one especially wants to hear the opinions of some irrelevant culche who career peaked decades ago. Plus Season 3 of Ted was garbage.

          2. Moonpie

            Remember last year’s referendum where the liars lied about how choosing to destroy a human life was “healthcare”?

            Remember last year’s referendum where the liars lied about how choosing to destroy a human life was “right”?

            Remember how those liars tried to banish all truth from debate?

            Remember how they played the victim?

            Same liars then are still lying now.

  3. Murtles

    Hmmm isn’t that sign “F- -k your Bigotry” contradictory or is that one of these it’s meant to be funny signs which at a serious protest is also contradictory.

  4. Shane Duffy

    Children can not be allowed make serious decisions that affects them as an adult. Image if a 12 year old said they wanted to have sex with adults. No doubt our LGBT and Snowflake friends would be ok with that too.

    1. bisted

      …adults are allowed to make serious decisions for children that affect them as an adult…sometimes even involving genital mutilation…

      1. Junkface

        Good point! I never thought of that. Judaism and (extreme) Islam both practice this. Islam does it on girls in north Africa. Look up Ayaan Hirsi on the subject. It happened to her as a young girl.

        1. SOQ

          After you gender realign, I trust you will you will change your name to just face?

          Although junk suits you better I think.

          1. Junkface

            Why did you say that? I’ve no plans to manipulate with my crotch, I’m happy the way I was born. Did those facts above shock you? Religions do horrible operations/butchering to children as part of their culture. Is this news for you? You might need to read about it

    2. McVitty

      I’m fairly certain the Children’s Act has implications here that can be clarified in future bills that take direction from the amendment.
      ——————————————————————————————————————————————
      4.1.i brought by the State, as guardian of the common good, for the purpose of preventing the safety and welfare of any child from being prejudicially affected…the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.
      4.2 Provision shall be made by law for securing, as far as practicable, that in all proceedings referred to in subsection 1º of this section in respect of any child who is capable of forming his or her own views, the views of the child shall be ascertained and given due weight having regard to the age and maturity of the child.
      ——————————————————————————————————————————————
      We need to have constitutional lawyers interpreting these clauses as part of any public discussion.

  5. Smith

    These so called leftist liberals are as bad their right-wing counterparts when it comes to censorship, and stifling of free speech.

    1. Nigel

      Next time everybody here starts moaning about the license fee and call for RTE to be defunded or shut down can you remind them that they’re suppressing free speech?

      1. millie st murderlark

        I would agree.

        Extremism in any form is unrealistic and often dangerous because it peddles the idea of the most extreme binaries as a simple either/or and things are rarely that simplistic.

  6. SOQ

    The one thing I learned from that program s that the proper support services for young trans people are not in place. It really doesn’t matter if they decide to go through with or not when they become an adult, the important thing is that they are in a state of crisis and need help.

    One lady said that if a young person goes onto hormone treatment they will nearly always transition later. The medication is reversible so why is that? Nobody would say gay cures are good so why is it acceptable to dismiss trans people in such a manner?

    1. Ian-O

      Precisely. I am very much aware of the intricacies of this debate for reasons I won’t go into at this time.

      There are absolutely cases where a child is genuinely confused, whether its dealing with their emerging sexuality, possibly being homosexual or just confused by access to the internet and all the darkness that may bring, but there are also genuine cases of children who suffer, greatly in some cases, from the issues brought up by being gender dysphoric.

      It’s a very, very fragile and complex issue and as you say SOQ, irrespective, the support, quelle suprise, are not in place because FF/FG/Labour etc have always, always treated mental health issues as being non supportive of their own careers so sidelined year after year after year.

      Nobody wants to see a child put on hormones unnecessarily and certainly nobody wants to see anyone transition if they are not genuinely gender dyphoric, but when you get what is essentially a muppet, like Linehan comparing this issue to Nazism you have to step back and ask if that sort of hyperbolic bullsh*t is appropriate in a debate of such magnitude?

      RTE are not a public service broadcaster in any sense of the word, they are an instituation whose first, second, third, fourth and fifth priority is its own continuance, contrary to their public service remit and having a man like Linahan, a man who appears to be the real deal when it comes to transphobia, speak as if he an authority on this is highly insulting, hurtful and damaging to the actual people who this involves and demonstrates how this show was put out there for shock value, car crash ratings only. They don’t care about anything else, most certainly not vulnerable people.

      Would you have a man on who was cautioned by the police about his Islamaphobia on a show about the increase in the numbers of Muslims in Ireland? Would you have a man on who has made idiotic comparisons between a serious social issue and Nazism – an idiot who said he would not, like the people in Germany did in the 20’s and 30’s, ”stand by” while this happens?

      There’s a debate to be had on this, inviting a man who has zero to do with this issue (outside of A) celebrity [which of course has nothing to do with it] B) Almost obsessive twitter posting C) history of being cautioned for his online behaviour towards trans people & D) a habit of making almost Trumpesque claims comparing the issue to Nazism or anorexia) is just plain wrong and even worse, damaging to those who are geder dysphoric.

      Linehan is more interested in hypothetical children transitioning than real human beings living with a very upsetting and genuine disorder. So long as he can pat himself on the back and say he would have stopped Hitler (his view, not mine) with his tweeting, irrespective of the harm done, that’s all that matters.

      1. SOQ

        On a number of occasions during my life I was asked when did I know I was gay- the smart answer is when did you know you were not but looking back, I would say I knew there was something different around the age of 8. Others have a very different story where they may have been in their mid twenties so on the issue of sexuality, there is no hard and fast rule.

        I don’t expect there is one here either but like the people who knew they were gay very early on, the same is probably true. And, like gay people 30-40 years ago, ‘it could be just a phase’ is repeatedly trotted out. Yes there is the potential for mistakes being made but I am pretty sure a doctor is not going to stick a 16 year old onto a drug which is irreversible unless absolutely necessary.

        When you step back and look at the numbers, of those who have transitioned and then the small subset who may later regret it, they are absolutely minuscule. I doubt if most transsexuals really care if they are regarded as real men or women as long as they are given the same respect and dignity as the rest of us, and left alone to live their lives as they see fit. .

        1. Starina

          I remember realising I was bi at 14 and being told – by a lesbian! – that I was too young to know that kind of thing yet. I was so annoyed.

      1. SOQ

        I get that Clamps but it would be a very irresponsible doctor who would put a 16 year old on such. From what I have been told, and this is from mature adults, they have all sorts of therapy hoops to jump through before even hormone treatments begin.

        IMO getting a trans kid on one of those programs is a good thing because they are then in the hands of professionals who will allow them sort their heads out before proceeding. Above all, it will help ensure they don’t do anything stupid. Attempted suicides among tans kids is 10 to 20 times higher, and I am not having a go at you personally but if these transphobes really cared, that is what they would be focusing on.

        1. Clampers Outside !

          I’m in complete agreement with you on this comment SOQ.

          As I’ve said before, one of my issues is with the radical trans activists who do bypass such proper care. Mermaids in UK is one such group I’d have issue with, and the possibility of such a lobby developing here. Their workshops for kids/teachers are ideological and far from proper care.

          1. Clampers Outside !

            You try to come across as if you are informed, and yet I can see clearly from this comment that you have no idea what they do, and have never even seen the transcripts of their workshops.

            Go away, and don’t come back until you’ve done your research, thanks.

          1. Clampers Outside !

            And….?
            Did I mention under 16s?
            I specifically corrected the notion that affects of hormone treatment are reversible. Those changes listed are not reversible.

            Please, if you are going to respond, do so to what I have said, thanks.

  7. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

    I thought it was a very balanced show. I didn’t think Graham Linehan represented himself very well, to be honest. I thought the Irish trans people seemed lovely and happy that we (mostly) support them here.

    Was the doctor who said that kids who start on hormone treatment almost always end up transitioning? That’s where my issue with the whole thing is. Teenage years are fraught anyway: you’re discovering and learning about yourself and others. It’s such a huge step.

    I thought the protesters in the UK were awful. Both sides, really. People, as I regularly say, are dicks.

    1. Bruce_Wee

      Agreed….I do find it hard to agree that a 16 year old has a fully formed grasp on the life altering effect a decision like this would make. I’m, thankfully, not the same person I was when I was 16. Obviously there are some cases and exceptions where this isn’t the case and I’m talking poo.

      The last time I checked, Puberty was something that everyone went through. To block such a vital part of your life cycle as to who you are and could potentially become, appears to be, well….wrong?

      https://raisingchildren.net.au/pre-teens/development/understanding-your-pre-teen/brain-development-teens

      A huge amount of of chemical and physical changes take place during this period for developement.

      The main point I felt raised in last nights program was that there might be an underlining issue from a mental health perspective affecting the decision for such a drastic decision.

      If it improved someones life for the better, fantastic. If it papers over the cracks of a more sinister mental health issue then this is far from ideal.

      The fact of the matter is that I genuinely feel a 16 year old mightn’t be the correct age/maturity for someone to process or realise the difference.

      As for the protest, they are free to do it and its great to see people believing in what they think is right. The irony, again in my opinion, was that they are trying to stifle and control information about a subject they are trying to stand up for.

    2. rotide

      Agree completely about the balance and the fact that after all the fuss Linehan came across as a keyboard bashing scaremonger

  8. rotide

    This was a pretty good report but it did leave a couple of points waving in the wind.

    There’s clearly something up with the enormous increase in children presenting as trans, especially when the gender balance is so off kilter. I don’t expect RTE to have the answers to that, but some insight would have been good.

    There was also a lack of any sources of reports that address the ‘just a phase’ aspect to the argument. They had a researcher who’s university shut down his research for seemingly political reasons about people who regretted their surgery and an american report about social contagion which was removed by brown university was also mentioned. Would have been nice to know if that report was actually discredited or was it the university covering itself against the screaming banshee of social media.

    1. Junkface

      Overall I thought it was a very good episode of Prime Time that shared information and personal experiences clearly and equally. The last section about University studies being shut down for fear of offending was shockingly stupid for humanity. We need these academics to be able to complete their studies freely and scientifically if we are going to find the truth, and also how to make sure that young teens have the correct guidance through a difficult time in their lives.
      I thought what Graham Linehan had to say was interesting and not crazy at all. There are safety concerns for a lot of women and girls that they me be exposed to a male predator. Its totally reasonable, even if recorded incidents of this type of crime are low, the fact that it has already happened, and more and more men are possibly becoming trans over the last few years, then the possibility of predatory males increases.
      The whole area of sport is crazy though. I had no idea there was a trans man beating the hell out of women in Women’s Ozzie Rules football! That’s just plain wrong. Same goes for MMA especially, but also cycling. They will muddy the water of years of hard fought women’s achievements and records in these Sports.

      1. postmanpat

        RTE is 3 years behind stories/ debates that are common place on US podcasts. You really need to hit the off button on your TV. Old media, especially RTE is irrelevant and behind on everything. My God!. What is interesting and new to you is old hat from my perspective. I feel like a time traveler from the future.

          1. postmanpat

            sorry dude. only scrolled down to it after my rant here! but you can see where I’m coming from. It is like a lot of Irishmen and women are unaware of any knowledge outside the zombie old school media. They watch the same rubbish year after year such as fad-diets & provincial current affairs with annoying personalities and dork audiences with show like Prime Time? I cant stand these shows. I grew out of the FM104 nighttime phone shows when I was 14 and Prime time is like the TV equivalent to me. Its unchallenging lowbrow entertainment dressed up as intelligent debate , full of grandstanding by really irritating, superior attitude, vain, lecturey phonies that lack self awareness and the show has no levity. Except for the boss-eyed thing, but that’s just funny for the wrong reasons. Its not just RTE, it is all the old shows. Sky news? That became ridiculous after Brasseye and that was 20 years ago. Yet people still watch the same type of stuff with no sense of irony. Prime Time? Jesus!! Its like one hour a week where stupid people gather to feel smart so they fell less guilty going back to their stupid habits of telly bingo and soap operas. Personally I think the shock of 9/11 set the slow but steadily growing intellect of 90’s TV and radio media back about two decades . Up to that point things were getting edgey enough that it was only a matter of time before producers would have to think outside the box because they were beginning to look ridiculous with the old formats that were being lampooned. But after 2001 it was business as normal for the slimy TV/Radio execs. People got scarred stupid again so why fix what isn’t broken?

    2. Bruce_Wee

      I would imagine the fear of a negative backlash would have been the driving force of not progressing the report further. Its a telling time that facts and the science of finding these facts, regardless of the outcome, whether it is for or against, aren’t being per-sued for fear of people typing on a social media platform or impacting on a reputation of a college or company.

      Frightening times ahead if we don’t say anything for fear of being viewed as a monster.

      It’s horsepoo to be honest….but it looks like we are heading in that direction.

      1. Junkface

        Agreed

        I watched the recent episode of the Joe Rogan show where his guest was Gaad Saad. He argues that academia in America has already been changed for the worst, because so many free thinkers or debaters get shouted down or silenced for trying to explore ideas through discussion. This a devolution for humanity that must be stopped. Adults do not need to be treated like children in Universities, or anywhere! They are there to broaden their minds, not the opposite.

        Another example is that a lot of us commenting on this thread (including myself) would not feel able to do so under our real names on twitter or facebook or whatever, because there could be a mob immediately messaging where you work. They just want to get people fired for speaking honestly. Its all backwards. We will not make progress if this continues. We will be heading towards the ridiculous days of the religious Puritans, what was that 17th Century?

        1. McVitty

          Ain’t that the truth. If your objective is defending the weak (and the “soft bigotry of low expectation” has been noted), you can convince yourself that everyone can potentially harm them so BAMN is a justifiable approach. The road to hell, good intentions…and stupid, stupid naive people buying into it all. People like kNige.

          And you are right about identities – someone actually threatened to doxx me on this site the time of the gay marriage referendum – show up at my house etc ect because I argued that to change the definition of civil marriage is to widen the definition of family in the constitution – since civil partnership does not have a link to family in the constitution, where civil marriage has. That was the significant aspect of the referendum for a lot of people, more-so than an inclusive issue or a gesture of apology in lieu of historic hardship. It was hardly a controversial position to take but some people on here are mad with power.

      2. Clampers Outside !

        +1 Bruce

        We already have one vociferous commenter on here suggesting people are monstering the issue for requesting further research. It’s unbelievable the ideogically informed claptrap and bullying they engage in sometimes. Clueless. No prizes for guessing who.

          1. Nigel

            Please note: does not actually feature me saying that though it does contain some of the words. Liar.

    3. Starina

      Most post-op regrets have been because the person’s friends and family have still not accepted them. It just gets to be too much.

      As Colette Brown tweeted last night: “Were the people so confused about increases in referrals for trans people, from a tiny base, also confused when friends of theirs came out as gay after homosexuality was decriminalised or during the marriage equality referendum?”

      1. SOQ

        There is an increase in people identifying as Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual too yet there is no big debates as to why because it is common sense. The more gay friendly a society is, they more will come out, end of.

        Trans people have the added problem of landing right into the middle of the gender war which is the last thing they need, or want.

        1. Clampers Outside !

          They also have the added problem of self appointed spokes persons trying to act as if they speak as an authoritative voice for all trans persons.

          (not you SOQ, but bodies / agencies like Mermaids)

          1. SOQ

            Yes well, you appear to be quite plugged in to the academic handbagging that goes on which is fair enough but be aware that most others. including Irish transsexuals, don’t know and couldn’t care less. So while you are arguing a nuanced point against forth level university campus culture in other countries, we are talking about real people’s lives here in Ireland.

            I know very little about Mermaid apart from the fact that after Lineham, national lottery funding was pulled AND that someone went online and raised $300k for them in two days so, I suspect there is a little more to that story too.

            I worked with a bunch of pro Palestine Jewish lesbians (oh yes) on a community project once and they always reckoned that fundraising was the most important part of promotion. Maybe they are right.

        2. McVitty

          Why do we demand that everyone “identify” by their personal struggles in the modern culture?
          Do you not see the danger that if I was straight white male and walk past a queer black female that I could end up trying to avoid any engagement because I live in fear that she has been raised to think that I am I’m almost certainly racist, sexist and homophobic. It ends up with unnecessary negative energy bouncing around. You would probably say I am paying for the sins of the father, but also agree it would be wrong of me to apply the same approach to an English person.

          Do you not see that there are forces at work to divide the society and you are buying into them? This thinking is a product of mass media and the internet but we are all going to end up far worse off than we were before these socially-enlightened (“woke”) times.

          1. SOQ

            Society already devides people by giving some more rights than others. 30 years ago, a young man was killed in Dublin and the thug got off on the gay panic excuse. That in turn sparked what we know as the Irish gay rights movement. Then, gay people were reduced to a sex act and now, trans people are being reduced to their genitalia with the same old ‘its just a phase’ dismissals.

            Just look at the comments on this thread, I pity any trans kid reading them. By people who have ever met a trans person in their lives spouting ignorant bulpoo. It is a recognised medical condition and at least half the people you will see walking down the street has at least one of them. What is the big friggen deal?

      2. McVitty

        If I was going bald in a hurry, I could take daily medication with all sorts of side-effects…or I could listen to those who tell me embrace it, that otherwise I’d have to take this junk my whole life and in the end, it’s not like I’d be that happy with a head of whispy hair at best – and he would have been a good, supportive friend to tell me that. We have what we were born with. There are cases where people are genuinely born hermaphrodite but this is relatively rare but is none-the-less used to advance the notion of gender-identity, which is pandoras box for the average adult, teenager and child with enough going on.

  9. SOQ

    Yes well, you appear to be quite plugged in to the academic handbagging that goes on which is fair enough but be aware that most others. including Irish transsexuals, don’t know and couldn’t care less. So while you are arguing a nuanced point against forth level university campus culture in other countries, we are talking about real people’s lives here in Ireland.

    I know very little about Mermaid apart from the fact that after Lineham, national lottery funding was pulled AND that someone went online and raised $300k for them in two days so, I suspect there is a little more to that story too.

  10. Myron Keane

    Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass’ favor.

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