Exceptional Measures [UPDATED]

at

This afternoon.

Yay!

Earlier

This morning.

Department of Health, Baggot Street, Dublin

A sit-in by members of This Is Me, a “national grassroots campaign advocating for safe, accessible, best practice standards for care to be provided to transgender people “.

They are demanding a meeting with Minister for Health, Simon Harris which he “has promised the campaigners on multiple occasions over the past 13 months”.

They want the introduction of official provisions for transgender healthcare in line with World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) standards of care.

They say there are no surgeons in Ireland who will perform gender affirmation surgery and no mental health support provided after refusal.

Noah Halpin, founder of This Is Me said

“We have played political niceties for well over a year now, but there comes a time when patience wear thin. Simon Harris has agreed to meet with us on multiple occasions, through multiple channels and he has not yet followed through on this commitment. Trans specific healthcare in Ireland is at crisis point. And this is being largely ignored. People are dying because of this. We have viable solutions. ”

The campaigners have stated that they will continue their sit in at the Department of Health until they receive a “confirmed time, date and location of the promised meeting with Minister Harris” and will not voluntarily leave the building “until this official arrangement has been made”.

Thanks Buzz

155 thoughts on “Exceptional Measures [UPDATED]

        1. BS

          its an anti womans rights slur

          used to denegrate and bully women who want to stand up for their rights to be recognised as a defined group with appropriate protections. Not too far off what trnas activists are working for, the difference is trans activists use this slur to bully anyone who disagrees or engage in debate with them.

        2. Andrew

          It IS a misogynistic slur. You just don’t recognise it as such; as you’re not really informed on this subject.
          That much is clear from some of your comments on this thread alone.

          1. Clampers Outside!

            Plenty women believe it is, are you mansplaining what misogyny is to women now…. :/
            Like the last time this topic came up when you accused a transperson (that I linked to/quoted) of having transphobic views.. >_<

    1. SOQ

      +1

      I see they are using the Led by Donkeys twitter format. All they need now is a go fund me for a few billboards eh?

  1. Daisy Chainsaw

    They’ll get their meeting and subsequently nothing will happen because all the money is going into the White Elephant Hospital in James’.

    1. Clampers Outside!

      Trans persons deserve proper care and provided to good standard by professionals as I have always advocated.

      Where’s the bigotry in that, ya silly…. stay off the mescal pet.

    2. McVitty

      @Mezcal: The term “dog whistle” was gifted to you and your likes not too long ago – a weapon that allows your accuse anyone of anything you like – since it deals in spectrum and subliminal messaging. So you are now calling Clampers a “transphobe” – as in, someone who has zero compassion for trans-people. Wow, aren’t you a hero – and it was so easy…the accusation just fell out of the side of your mouth – you might even say you couldn’t help yourself but no, you are an agent for positive change in our time!

      Social cohesion is going to the dogs because of attitudes like yours – and make no mistake, the media and culture has empowered to be weak and repulsive.

      Have a pleasant evening.

      1. Nigel

        I mean it’s weird you wouldn”t blame the failure of social cohesion on the guy who did the gifting of the phrase ‘dog whistle’ when he used it to describe his own tactics of politically appealing to racists without using overt racism, or on the side of the political spectrum that adopted those tactics, but ok.

        1. McVitty

          No, the idea of “dog-whistling” is that every thing is subjective and you can go with what your gut tells you – empowering you call someone something usually libelous without taking on the burden of proof or drawing clear lines around evidence. Intent is everything – and if you don’t like someone for whatever reason, you can project or assume intent to colour your perspective and justify whatever action you see fit. This moment belongs to mindless savages, hellbent on destruction. Enjoy your time – you won’t have it forever, thank God….

  2. Nigel

    Why do you treat ordinary medical procedures as if they’re Satanic rituals? Pure hateful scaremongering.

    1. FU Bull sheet

      Wow. Any questioning of the globo-homo agenda “ist verboten”.

      Broadsheet is not journalism, it’s activist propaganda for the emotionally immature and the sexually depraved.

      Shame on you all, you twisted, evil, lecherous, perverted fupps.

      1. millie st murderlark

        FIRE AND BRIMSTONE AND A PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS ON YOUR HOUSE!

        Perverts and criminals with dirty nasty fingernails ALL BECAUSE THEY DON’T AGREE WITH ME!

        1. FU Bull sheet

          You promote the in uetro murder of children and the surgical mutilation of emotionally disturbed people. That’s not normal behavior.

          You insist on your right to groom children into a weird self-mutilating cult.

          You are self-important Weirdos promoting self-harming ideology to children.

          With the full support of the Bullsheet. No dissenting facts allowed.

          Facts are RACIST!!

          1. millie st murderlark

            “I’M GOING TO THROW A TANTRUM BECAUSE NO ONE AGREES WITH ME.”

            You sad individual.

          2. Ian-O

            @ FU Bull sheet – Poor liddle snowflake.

            All upset are ye? LQTM – Laughing Quietly To Myself here at your rant.

            I’ll say this once and will say no more because you’re really not worth much more effort, but part of the reason why they might be ’emotionally disturbed’ is that they feel they are not in the right body and there is quite a lot of research to make me believe (because I have actually read some of that researdch and not written it off for whatever reason) that what they experience is very real and very traumatic.

            Another part of their emotional distress is online regressive injustice warriors like yourself ranting away, calling them depraved etc.

            So well done you! You’ve just increased the net hate index by 0.00000000145% today. What an achievement.

            Also, facts are just facts, no matter how much you might think so, capitalizing a word does not make it any more or less true.

            I’d say have a good day but really, I hope ye bang yer shin off a coffee table.

          1. Papi

            Lecherous was my Pavlovian stimulus here, I’ll admit it. Glad to be hated and cursed by you, FU.

        1. SOQ

          No.

          You failed your gay membership exam remember ? Your evening wear section was passable but your swimwear was dreadful.

        2. Starina

          I guess I would be globo-bi? or pan-globo. or pan-globo-pan. Oooh the possibilities are endless.

          1. millie st murderlark

            I’m utterly clueless as to the different types of sexuality people have.

            Is it not okay to just say, you do you and I love you anyway?

      2. Nigel

        We can mock Zuppy here, but this torrent of hatred underlines the courage of the protestors above – imagine being subjected to this constantly, and having to deal with the potential for violence that goes with it. ‘They’re coming for the children.’ Remember the scares about the Homosexual Agenda and the Stanic Panic? That’s this all over again, directed straight at a tiny a vulnerable minority who just want to get on with their lives the same way the rest of us do.

        1. FU Bull sheet

          You’re the one who insists on your right to groom children into a cult of self-harm.

          Would you insist that an anorexic starve themselves?

          Of that a bulimic continue to purge?

          You’re grooming children into a cult of violent self-harm.

          Your intended outcome is evil. You care nothing for the victims that you virtue snivel for.

          Why do you hate children so much that you want them to destroy themselves?

          1. Nigel

            Children with these conditions should receive medically and psychologically appropraite support and treatment without monsters like you slobbering all over them and vile tabloids whipping up hate.

          1. Clampers Outside!

            It’s not ordinary, is most certainly complicated, and requires a lot of pre-op prep for an irreversible procedure.
            Andrew is spot on, and does not need to be a doctor to understand that. Unlike yourself, clearly, who is demonstrably without any clue of the absolutely not ordinary nature of such an op.

          2. Nigel

            It’s ordinary *for them* the available and appropriate options are understood and practiced by medical people who are acting responsibly who know what they’re doing, and which is a matter of sensitivity and privacy between medical practitioners and their patients and not somehtiong to be subject to the inasive braying of ignorant sneering busybodies screaming that the children are being mutilated to spread hate and fear. Seriously go feck around with cancer treatments for a change if you want a thrill, see how that works out for you.

          3. Clampers Outside!

            “appropriate options” are not always fully understood and interventions done without proper consultation if you’d bother to look at the literature on the subject. Importantly, there is no data on success/failures of the medical interventions, with some activists demanding that no research be carried out to such an effect that a university Prof with decades of experience has been halted from doing such necessary research. This “understand(ing)” you speak of is not come to through the use of all knowledge that could, and should be available on the matter.

            Your hysterics bit at the end is just you doing your usual self righteous hysterics…. and “pfffft!” to that.

          4. Nigel

            Pardon me but you are not a person who is known for their understanding of things to be speaking so expertly on an area where you are not expert.

          5. Clampers Outside!

            I am not trying to speak expertly but simply acknowledging what is known to be a large gap in understanding what you naively have asserted to be “understood” and of no concern beyond what you deem “ordinary”. It is you who is acting in a manner of “expert”, I have merely said that there is much much more to be understood.

            Couldn’t be any clearer, thanks.

          6. Nigel

            There was a large gap in your inderstanding about Ian Huntley, wasn’t there? Maybe learn from that.

          7. Clampers Outside !

            I had no understanding of Huntley, only read what was reported like everyone else, and read, like everyone else, what was then rubbished.
            I never claimed to have any understanding of him, thanks. Your suggestion I did, a segue as means to demonise is laughable, and quite pathetic in all fairness. Grow up pet :)

            I’m always learning, thanks.

          8. Clampers Outside!

            Aye, at least I recognise the need for greater understanding of the issue, unlike yourself who sees it as “understood” already.

          9. Nigel

            I regard medical procedures being currently utilised as ‘understood.’ This does not preclude further development and study. It does preclude Daily Mail headlines.

          10. Clampers Outside!

            But they are not “understood”, they are heavily debated.
            And often the debate is restricted from developing greater understanding by the trans activism that you have stood by (McKinnon) when arguing against my position in calling for more information being needed (success/failure research requirement being blocked).

          11. Nigel

            Trans activism is so powerful it prevents medical research? Any trans person I’ve ever heard talk about it wanted more research and funding, not less.

          12. Clampers Outside!

            Why are you asking that question when it is a known fact, and one that you have seen discussed, and engaged with, in previous threads on this topic?
            Are you feigning ignorance of your own past awareness now or what, I don’t know. Give it a rest.

        1. realPolithicks

          It’s perfectly ordinary clamps, but it upsets you for some reason so therefore you try to pretend it isn’t. There’s nothing to be afraid of.

          1. Clampers Outside!

            It doesn’t upset me that those in need get the proper help. It’s when wrong help is given is the issue as has been recorded in the UK, and would be repeated here if the same approach was to be taken. As such, I believe in due diligence, nothing more.

            Your childish assertions of anything else on my part, are just that, childish.

          2. Clampers Outside !

            You could do with watching those who know what it can be like to be lead down the wrong path towards transition. And why proper understanding beyond current levels is very much needed in order to help those in need get the proper help.

            You could start with watching this… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxVmSGTgNxI

            “Helena, Jesse, Dagny, and Chiara of the Pique Resilience Project, answering a few of your questions for detransitioners and desisters. These are our personal stories and opinions as women who identified as trans and desisted “

          3. realPolithicks

            If only we were all as wise as you clamps, thanks for looking out for the rest of us dopes.

          4. Clampers Outside!

            I’m sure you’re as well as I or anyone else to make an effort to be informed.

  3. Dan

    People are dying because of this.
    Join the queue people.
    There are a lot of people dying at the hands of Simon Harris, yiu are no different

  4. rotide

    There is literally no information in this post.
    “They want the introduction of official provisions for transgender healthcare”
    What exactly is that? I’m not reading through a bloody WHO pdf to glean information from. Just a little reportage mightn’t go amiss here.

  5. Papi

    “Shame on you all, you twisted, evil, lecherous, perverted fupps.”

    I just really wanted to say that, it’s my new thing.

  6. Nigel

    Good for them, though as other commenters have pointed out, even if they receive assurances it’s going to be an uphill battle to see they’re kept.

    1. SOQ

      The fact that the most marginalised group in irish society has to take such action is evidence if needed of the work still to be done on this issue.

      Trans people are the gays of 30 years ago and when you read some of the pig ignorant poo spouted about them, even on here, you would wonder if we really have come as far as we think we have.

      1. Nigel

        And it’s so transparently an effort to roll all the progress back using trans issues as the thin end of the wedge.

      2. Orla

        More marginalized than those in direct provision? Or travelers? Or kids with scoliosis waiting years for treatment to relieve their pain?

        1. Orla

          I’d add that legal recognition for transgender was brought in years ago with zero fanfare and almost no dissent.

        2. Ian-O

          While all the above are in marginalized, no matter what, nobody questions their basic identity as a human being.

        3. Nigel

          People do lose their minds in different ways over the first two as well, yes, but I think trans have the edge because they are currently being attacked for mutilating children FFS.

          1. Cian

            Are you sure that trans are currently being attacked for mutilating children ?

            Are parents not attacked for “mutilating” their “trans” children. Or possibly allowing their “trans” children “mutilate” themselves.

            (“trans” is quotes because the attackers don’t believe it is a real thing.)

          2. Nigel

            Can you be a bit more precise about whether and why hormones would be administered (promoted?) to preteens? Or to put it another way, if they are administered in specific cases and for specific reasons, what are the grounds for objecting?

            Cian: why not both? Apparently trans ideology calls for the mutilation of children and trendy woke parents want their children mutilated and it’s a favourite way for Doctors to please Their Lord And Master Satan while you’re at it.

          3. Nigel

            Well it wasn’t my word, but while it can suggest state action (or indifference), it’s not exclusively so. Or that’s my understanding.

          4. Yep

            Nigel, I know you don’t remember but we have had this discussion a couple of times before. It usually ends with you not replying or getting to levels of
            obfuscation that shouldn’t even be possible.

            A ten yr old boy likes to dress in girls clothing, says they “like boys” etc….even flat out says they want to be a girl…do you think the ten year old should be accommodated? With HRT?

            I’ll open it to everyone who might read this actually because I’m curious. A yes or no is fine but I would imagine you will have a lot more to say on it if you reply at all.

          5. Nigel

            A yes or no? You want me to diagnose and treat a ten year old I’ve never met based on a two-line description? And also I have no medical qualifications whatsoever. I donlt think you do, either. If I were a parent of a ten year old boy I would want to have a series of long conversations with medical professionals before I gave permission to embark on any course of treatment. I wouldn’t welcome some non-medical stranger demanding a yes or no just like that or implying that I wasn’t trying to act in the best interests of the child based on whatever understanding that stranger had of the medical issues involved.

          6. Yep

            Psychiatry is not an exact science so different professionals would come to different conclusions. Some medical doctors would support meds while some wouldn’t.

            Interesting how you claim to be unqualified to give an opinion on something while act so sure on others when all the facts are unknowable.

            Your general view of the world informs every single opinion on every single subject and you refuse to believe you could be wrong on a particular aspect because you worry your whole belief system will collapse. It won’t.

            I support treatment for mid to late teens to go what ever route they wish. With state sponsored support in therapy and biological treatment.

            If anyone supports the same for prepubescent children I think they are repulsive people who are being disingenuous or clouded by the feeling they are “doing the right thing”

          7. Nigel

            Going by your comments, all i can see is a reflexive ‘won;t someone think of the children!’ If anything it reminds my of the arguments made by anti-vaxxers when they were sure children were just too young to have all that stuff pumped into them. Going by your comments I have no since of what the problem actually is, what medical objections you have, whether those objections are valid. I don’t even know, going by your comments, whether anyone even actually adminsters hormones to preteens, let alone why, and with what outcomes. But you sure have strong feelings about it, and want to insert yourself as a moral arbiter in the confidential dealings of doctors and their patients.

          8. Yep

            Total nonsense. You’re equating my concern for preteens being administered specific gender orientated hormones to the anti-vaxers arguments? You may think that negates my opinion but it just makes you look really fuppin stupid.

            Also, this use of ‘won;t someone think of the children!’ as a mockery of someones genuine concern when it differs from your own view is really low and shows very little critical awareness on your part.

            I have CLEARLY outlined my view on it. Children of that age should not be given carte blanche over how they alter there hormonal chemistry.

            Of course, when you take your foot off the pedal because your road isn’t as clear, you go the whole “well YOU feel strongly” (look at the amount of comments you made) and do the shrugging of the shoulders with “I don’t even know, going by your comments, whether anyone even actually adminsters hormones to preteens”

            Yes. Yes you do. If you don’t you should really educate yourself before attacking people with different opinions.

            Finally, it’s not a question of “morality”. It’s the easy way you frame the discussion so I’m just a fuddy duddy traditionalist who has to move on and get with the times.

            If you or anyone supports what I have explained as clearly as possible, I think you are a horrible person. Take care Nidge.

          9. Nigel

            Carte blanche? I mean, if children are being allowed to take hormones regardless of medical advice or parental oversight, you might have a point.

          10. Yep

            That’s fair. I retract the use of carte blanche. Ultimately any decision will be made by the adults which is really the core issue I have. Adults perceiving certain things about the child and acting in a way they feel is right for the child.

            I don’t believe anyone is in a position to definatively say altering a childs biology at that age is of more benefit than waiting for the kid to become a more mature.

            As I have said, I think it is harmful and misguided.

          11. deluded

            I think the body matures before the mimd.
            What some advocate is off-setting puberty; late puberty isn’t necessarily a problem.
            Sprouting and changing at 10 or 11 while in the wrong form (in their mind) is much harder to deal with than delaying the process a few years.

          12. Clampers Outside!

            And yet most kids grow out of the confusion they may have over gender.
            Two points on that: 1. As most kids grow out then treating all kids that show signs of confusion would damage more kids than it would help. 2. Starting treatment too early on a misdiagnosed child is nothing short of child abuse.

            More research on early stage dysporia and on those who were misdiagnosed and those who have and are detransitioning / attempting to reverse any procedures, and why so. (Yet this research is being held up and objected to by trans activists like Mermaids UK).

  7. BS

    There absolutely should be mental health services specifically catering for people with gender dysphoria, as it is a psychological issue. If an adult derermines that surgery is the only way to help cure this psychological problem they have then they should fund this themselves as private treatment.

    What shouldnt happen here is that the rights of women are put in jeopardy and eroded in order to give greater rights to a small group of people. Im all for single sex toilets, there should be a choice, but making all womens or mens toilets single sex is regressive and dangerious for people who have genuine concerns about sharing spaces with people of the opposite sex.

    People also need to differentiate sex and gender.

    1. Janet, I ate my avatar

      maybe you should be asking why you should need to worry about sharing a space with someone of the opposite sex ?
      did I miss the memo, are all men pervy rapists
      shared toilet facilities and shower changing rooms in Paris for years at local pool, what’s the problem

      1. BS

        Many women are indeed worried about sharing toilets and changing rooms with those of the opposite sex.

        But they will have misogynistic slurs thrown and them to try to bully them into accepting something they don’t.

        And yes, quite a lot of men are Pervy, and some are rapists.

        1. Janet, I ate my avatar

          you know you aren’t in the same cubicle right ?
          Doors don’t fix problems, education does

          1. BS

            In some cases, gym changing rooms as one example there are no cubicles, it’s an open single sex changing room. I’ve only been in one swimming pool changing room where it was mixed sex and used cubicles

  8. Jeffrey

    More catering for the minorities while forgetting about the majority, you go Simon, an easy win for you again ;)

    1. Ian-O

      Well people with cancer are in the minority, people who are diagnosed with down’s syndrome are in the minority, people over the age of 90 are in the minority.

      Should I go on?

      Also, can you outline how providing them with equal access to the sort of medical care they provide harms you?

      1. Jeffrey

        My post is aimed at coward Harris who seems to only show up when there is a sure win ahead. Of course Im all for these people getting what they want.

    2. GiggidyGoo

      Simons ‘easy wins’ unravel approx. 3-6 months later when he found out as not giving a toss.

  9. SOQ

    Ok- *Cracks fingers*

    I know the usual would be spouting the usual before I even opened this thread again. And the usual is- same sex environments and think of the children so instead of running through each individual comment, let me address them here. For the BS virgins, I am (older) gay not trans but I sure as hell recognise the similarities.

    Same sex environments like toilets- Trans women have no more interest in your bits that I have. Do you want separate toilets for lesbians? All trans women want to do is mind their own business and have a bloody pee, it’s a pity you can’t do the same. Me. meme, mememe is what I read from this argument. Do you have an issue with gender neutral toilets too?

    Think of the children- Well that is exactly what these support services are about. The level of mental issues and suicide among trans people is unacceptable, it really has to stop. Holding up a small percentage of a small percentage in other countries to argue against adults having the badly needed support structures is at best, disingenuous.

    I’ll finish with a personal experience. A trans woman I met on a train. I used to commute long distance and she would arrive, eyes darting across empty seats before finally picking one. After a couple of weeks of this, I stood up and offered the seat beside mine. This created more anxiety as I am not the most obvious of the gaymers, until I stuck of a conversation by asking her if she was trans. She said yes and I asked her if she knew ‘someone’. ‘Someone’ was a trans activist and also, a friend of mine. I wasn’t travelling that long after but where possible, I held a seat for her as I was usually on first.

    Now lads, where does this fit into with your hypothetical and conveniently engineered neurotic arguments? Someone just earning a living (in the IFSC as it happens), paying taxes, paying a mortgage, paying train fares and yet- has to carefully pick where she sits on a train just to have a hassle free trip home? And this was a nice train, meaning mainly sober mannered professional people, not later at night.

    Enough of the bullpoo.

    1. BS

      I respect the tone of your debate on this. It’s sadly lacking in most places where this subject comes up.

      My issue isn’t with trans people. If someone wants to live their life as a different gender then that’s their business, and their business alone, they deserve to be given the same respect as any other person.

      But a trans woman is not a woman. A woman is an adult female. They’re sex is female. This can’t be changed. A trans woman is and always will be of the male sex, regardless of what gender they want to appear as. In that case, single sex spaces should be kept as such. If there are mixed sex toilets for instance, these should not be the only option available, as people have the right to use facilities that are single sex. If a trans person wants to use a gender neutral or mixed sex toilet then there should be the option, but as they are biologically male, they should not be allowed use the female only facilities.

      Giving trans people rights should not erode the rights of non trans people. Women’s rights in particular are being attacked and eroded by a very vocal selection of activists who don’t care about a woman’s right to choose who they share facilities with.

      And I haven’t even touched on the early medical intervention in “treating” children who appear to be trans. That’s a whole other kettle of nasty activism

      1. SOQ

        We have venues in Dublin where the toilets are just that, toilets. Are you saying that you would not go to such if you knew that male and female did not pee separately?

        1. BS

          Im saying that people should be given the choice.

          Women use toilets for a lot more than peeing. Sometimes they’re a refuge, a place to feel safe. They should have the choice to share their spaces with people of the same sex, or if they want, people of a different sex.

          1. SOQ

            You are saying that women should be given the choice. The single srt8 women I know are in and out pretty sharpish if there is something of interest around.

            Then again they are hard faced biatches- very bitter.

        2. BS

          What about vulnerable women? Who have been sexually assaulted, physically assaulted and who value a safe space where they are sure there are no males.

          You may know some pretty sharp biatches, but there are also some pretty vulnerable women who deserve the choice and deserve to have boundaries that are respected

          1. SOQ

            Look I get the fact that some srt8 men can be complete B’s towards women but are you seriously suggesting that someone who goes though all the soul searching and pain of becoming m-f transsexual is doing it to get at women?

            That is like saying if a paedophile also happens to be gay then all gay men are likely to be paedophiles.

          2. BS

            But they are not transexual, they are transgender. It is scientifically impossible to change your sex. A male to female transgender person is a male. this is where sex and gender needs to be seperated so that single sex spaces are maintained regardless of the gender you have chosen to live as.

            If a man feels more comfortable living as his version of a woman, then they should be treated with respect and dignity, and given access to facilities that meet their needs, BUT these facilities should not encroach on the rights of others. there is a balance to be struck here, and saying trans people are real women and should be given the same rights as women, and if women dont agree they are scum and should be killed is not helping the whole situation.

            Some of these trans rights activists say that if a lesbian woman wont have sex with a male who is identifying as a lesbian woman she is a “terf” and should learn to accept “lady penis” if that itsnt misogynistic hate for women then i dont know what is.

          3. SOQ

            Yup fair comment on the balance of rights but to be honest, I don’t really care about splitting hairs on sex vs gender or what feminism is currently tying itself in knots over. Nor am I arguing that there are not differences between men and women but I am certain that the female of the species is in the main neither weak nor fragile ether.

            Call them what you will but when you talk to ordinary trans people, about housing, about healthcare, about simple things we take for granted like walking down the street without fear of assault, and that is only in the centre of Dublin, you will realise that they too have other priorities.

            And another point- those same men who attack m-f transsexuals are likely to be same ones who are violent towards women, and to a lesser extent these days, gay men. What I am saying is the ‘them vs us’ debate is now skewed out of all proportion and badly needs to be realigned,

          4. BS

            The things trans people are worried about are the same things women are worried about, getting decent healthcare (cervical screening scandal, not having aceess to family planning for years) and many many women i know are also scared of walking the streets of the city centre because they are at risk of assault, what ever level of assault that is, being grabbed, letched at, or full on physical or sexual assault.

            i have no doubt there are a lot of “normal every day” trans people who just want to live their life how they want, and not encroach on the rights of women, but unfortunately the trans rights movement has been over run with a violent and not debating cohort of men, and trans people along with some women who will not be happy until the rights women fought for decades to get are given to males who want to be female

          5. BS

            It’s also quite refreshing to have such a civilised and well articulated debate about this with someone SOQ, unfortunaltely this is not the norm when these issues come up.

          6. SOQ

            Tnx Clamps and @ BS- Unfortunately the internet has resulted in people getting very lazy and wanting black and white answers to everything.

            It is no coincidence that it is the right wing sections of the media who are hyping this whole shared toilets / changing room thing- divide and conquer if you like. It is up to all sides to realise that they are being played and temper their language accordingly.

          7. Clampers Outside !

            In fairness, it goes well beyond simply “right wing media” hype as is discussed by Prof Kathleen Stock in the piece I linked to below (at 11.37)… a longish read, but not too long.

  10. Clampers Outside!

    For anyone interested, a fantastic read here from feminist philosopher and professor Kathleen Stock that clarifies the main two sides of the trans issues in dispute.

    https://quillette.com/2019/04/11/ignoring-differences-between-men-and-women-is-the-wrong-way-to-address-gender-dysphoria/

    Or, if you are looking to clear the mud from view so that you can view the dispute and the issues with clarity, I’d highly recommend this piece as a jumping off, or into, point.
    (it’s not short, but it’s not too long a piece either)

    1. SOQ

      Thanks Clamps- but, within a couple of paragraphs, I knew this was written by an English professor, of which there was way too much, focusing on the Anglo-American world view and also, just peering out from behind the curtains into the real world of both trans and non lesbian females.

      I agree with this- Where stark differences are promoted between the sexes; those perceived to sit uncomfortably between gendered worlds are vulnerable to projected ridicule, harassment or even disgust.

      The idea that in a shop’s changing room, a parent cannot stand outside the curtains of a cubicle is ridiculous. I will object to the fella changing next door having his girlfriend or mother if that is the case.

      I strongly disagree with this- In considering this difficult issue, we need to be aware of the fact, often glossed over or treated as heresy if mentioned, that a substantial number of trans women are pre-operative and retain natal genitalia, and that many are sexually attracted to females. The public stereotype of a trans woman as a post-operative transsexual, attracted only to males, has yet to catch up with the reality of the so-called “trans umbrella.”

      Anti-penis 101. I know of only one trans who has a girlfriend. Up north, an ex of a prominent politician’s sister as it happens. Pretty sure she is not stalking the female changing rooms of Debenhams looking for <18 year old girls. I’ll not go into the details but she has WAY better thing things to be doing.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        Aye, I wouldn’t expect everyone to agree with all of it. I too disagree with her on a few other areas of discussion.
        Yet, I do believe she presents the two sides very well and fairly, and fwiw, I would largely fall into agreement with her position on this matter.

        1. T Oylett

          I hadn’t the patience to wade through the impenetrable socio-academe-fiddletwaddle-

          can we get a high level TLDR summarising the two sides or main point please?

          1. Clampers Outside!

            I’ll give it a go…. just not sure when I’d get to it… as it won’t be tonight. But I think i’d benefit too from doing so myself, so I will have a go when I can.

        2. SOQ

          30 years ago we out gays were not to be mentioned in the company of children Clamps, it really is that simple. This Fr Ted clown, who made his money from poking fun at the Irish in England back then, is somehow now saying what?

          Where was he when we knocked doors in the last two referendums to be now claiming that he is somehow enlightened when it comes to Trans rights? Bon voyage- we will miss you- if we remember who you are of course.

          https://www.dublinairport.com/flight-information/flight-schedule

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