It Was The Populism Wot Won It

at | 86 Replies

Sinn Féin supporters celebrate at the Generel Election 2020 count centre in the RDS last night

 

Apparently…

FIGHT!

Earlier: Taking It Well

86 thoughts on “It Was The Populism Wot Won It

  1. Clampers Outside!

    Just because it is a Left popular vote doesn’t mean it can no longer be called “populism”.

    It is what it is.
    It is popular.
    It is popular among voters and won votes, and it is populism.

    Populism can mean for the popular good. Those that think it cannot are just being silly.

    Reply
    1. Tomm

      If they were actually left then they would propose higher taxes and costs to fund their spending.

      They did the opposite and are therefore populists.

      Reply
      1. Clampers Outside

        Dunno about that, in fairness.

        My point was that “populism” is neither a Left nor Right exclusive and can be of either.

        Reply
      2. Rob_G

        +1 Tomm

        They are going to increase spending, increase the dole by one-fifth, bring the pension age back to 65, build 100,000 houses for €6bn (so, €60k per house – anyone who has tried to build an extension for that price will tell you how much of a joke that figure is), but also cut everyone’s taxes?

        They are charlatans.

        Reply
        1. Boj

          Nothing has happened yet so why the name calling? You have no facts yet. On the other hand we have decades of charlatan evidence from the F cartels. Also why not ask yourself why building an extension is so expensive in this country? There must be some facts to unearth on that subject?

          Reply
          1. Rob_G

            They are charlatans. They have already published the above in their manifesto; obviously, manifesto is a wishlist, but at least they are at least somewhat grounded in reality.

            “Also why not ask yourself why building an extension is so expensive in this country?”

            Because our economy was the fastest-growing in the eurozone – well, for now, anyway…

    1. Clampers Outside

      +1, the water charges and their change of heart on them being a premier example of chasing SF popular opinion.

      Reply
        1. GiggidyGoo

          And each time you fail to mention that SF dont control the finances in north. Those are controlled by Westminister. (East Brits in other words).
          But the election here is over. Get over it.
          Your concentration should now be on Leo and his chances of remaining leader of FG. He hasn’t done a good job and it took him until count 5 to get elected. Pick the bones put of that one. Its current.

          Reply
          1. Rob_G

            Giggidy – all governments operate under a variety of external factors that they have limited control over. SF know this; they just didn’t expect that they would be in a position to form a government after this election, so saw no reason not to promise ‘one for everyone in the audience’ this election.

          2. Boj

            Rob_G you are sticking with the notion that those who voted SF fell for it as if they were thick. A lot of people voted SF not because they wanted to…it was because they NEEDED to!

          3. Boj

            To rephrase…To me there was a clear NEED to vote for anyone BUT FFG. I thought that was pretty obvious but your ‘in fairness’ was duly noted :-)

          4. Clampers Outside

            Fair enough, I hear ya.

            On another note, I think the successful SF candidates interviewed on the news earlier tonight need to be told it wasn’t their policies, if that’s the case, as they appear to think it was the policies, and not an… anything but FFG.

          5. class wario

            “all governments operate under a variety of external factors that they have limited control over” – this is a really weak attempt at justfying half truths to make it seem like sinn fein are somehow being hypocritical on the pension age issue, using this massively broad platitude to handwave intentional dishonesty.

          6. Rob_G

            At the moment, there are 5 workers for each pensioner – by 2050, it will be 2:1.
            SF are being fundamentally dishonest on the pension issue by pretending that everyone can continue retiring at 65 as before.

          7. Boj

            Ha..you are still stuck on it!! It was so clearly an ‘anything but FFG’ vote. To frame it any other way is dishonest. Scandals, mispending, waste. Utter disregard for the man and woman fuelling the oh so precious economy. A governing party who forgets who feeds them is one THICK group of people. FF at least pretended to give a monkies. This is borrowed time for SF and everyone knows it. Lets hope they make our country a better place than it currently is for everybody in the audience not just the front few rows.

  2. Spud

    In fairness to the Pat Kenny remark, he made the ‘stupid’ comment about certain voters going into election centres questioning why they couldn’t vote for Mary Lou, and not understanding she wasn’t running in their local constituency.

    Probably a poor word choice but shows the significance of some voters who wanted the party / brand and not necessarily the representative at a local level anyway.

    Reply
    1. dav

      he was talking about an unsubstantiated text sent in by a listener. He had zero evidence that such a thing happened in any polling station and yet he ran with it

      Reply
  3. 01101101 01100011

    LOL

    my instrument panel is lit like a Christmas tree now, a sea of flashing reds

    society’s great and good running about panicking, screaming with their heads on fire…. locally and abroad…many of whom I’d never seen or heard of before in my young life…so very very nice to identify meet you!

    damn, I’m gonna need a bigger panel

    Reply
    1. 01101101 01100011

      well don’t worry ‘cos Verona somehow managed to scrape in to represent that direction of thought into the short-medium future

      will be so interesting to see who tries to make up their numbers with her seat (if anyone)

      Reply
      1. class wario

        the lads comparing a SF surge to Trump/Brexit will of course be very quiet when it comes to the ex-FG wagon elected on a nativist platform

        Reply
      2. kellma

        Saw that and yes that “debriefing” comment was well off the wall….Is she as mad as Gemma though? Gemma, creator of the video of herself going into a halal butchers in swords and abusing him for not selling rashers?!?!

        Reply
  4. millie vanilly strikes again

    This election has brought out some really ugly sentiments.

    From someone who *didn’t* vote Sinn Fein, it looks a lot like sour grapes from supporters of the ‘establishment’, as it were.

    I think this election has shown above all that a large proportion of people want a change from a flip flopping between two centrist parties who have very little to differentiate them and who – over the past 10-15 years have brought very little to the everyday working person of this country.

    Perhaps I’m wrong but as someone who is not an SF voter (Clare Daly was always my go to vote in my constituency, so you can call me a ‘lefty’) that’s how it looks.

    Reply
    1. Cian

      over the past 10-15 years have brought very little to the everyday working person of this country
      Apart from employment?

      And a massive recovery from recession. Greece still has double-digit unemployment.

      Oh, and income is going up too – these new jobs are good jobs.
      “Overall the mean income from employment remained relatively constant between 2007 and 2012, increasing by 16% between 2012 and 2017.”
      http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2020/Documents/Budget/Quality%20of%20Employment%20Indicators%20and%20Trends.pdf

      Reply
      1. millie vanilly strikes again

        Please see my reply below, for a little touch of what the average working family might feel.

        Stats are all well and good but they didn’t transfer to votes, or to the reality of what people like me are living.

        Reply
      2. 01101101 01100011

        Cian

        I’ve noticed there was a fair bit of comment here from certain quarters about how great things are going when compared to this crowd or that crowd. well guess what? I don’t give a fupp!

        I’m Irish. we are unique in this world and I say we’re world beaters, in my view we’re better than Greece or Romania or whatever convenient relegation or mid-table team you pull out of your stats pile there as a leveller.

        We are a dot in the ocean yet we do so well on that world stage, with none of the historical advantages some of them have had and a slew of disadvantages….ever wondered why?

        We are powerful, capable and proud people.

        I’m here to stand with you if you choose. Please, look FORWARD and have some pride in yourself FFS!!!

        Reply
          1. 01101101 01100011

            ah Rob

            why are you attempting to connect me to SF around the back?

            please. do you think I’m stupid? is that your best?

            did you even read what I wrote above? man, that’s disappointing, wtf?

            next thing you’ll be sniping at my grammar

          2. Rob_G

            No,it was just an aside…

            Ok, well mid-table countries aside, Ireland is the #3 best country to live in in the world, according to the UN human development index – http://hdr.undp.org/en/data

            The comparison with Greece or Spain is useful is that most of the countries that had the Troika in are still in the crapper, whereas Ireland has been the fastest-growing economy in the eurozone for years now.

          3. class wario

            do you think the clearly huge number of people who are clearly not feeling how supposedly great it is to live here are lying and/or delusional?

          4. 01101101 01100011

            Hi Clampers
            my take on that –
            Rob and I have had a good few courteous exchanges so he should know my position. however he and others on here like Cian seem to be desperate to have some, any kind of aha! moment where I and others are concerned. Rob thought by inserting some SF factoid into the sentence he wrote he’d create some (any) kind of association between me and them as I bit and argued his point. it was a sly dog move and disingenuous. more subtle than Cian blurting out SF! but nonetheless crass. (it didn’t even make sense and unless he struggles with reading I have no other explanation) I’ve plenty of posts here now where I’ve explained who I am and what I’m about and none of them have anything to do with ANY political party whatsoever. do I think there are good guys and bad guys? yea I voted #1 for one of them. BUT its the system I’m interested in. I’ve developing a keen interest in politics but only in an Attenborough way, you know the bit where the tiger goes looking for her next meal? I think our current system is heading for extinction and I’m observing it as it dies. this is just one of those moments on the way there, simples. does that compute?

          5. Rob_G

            I’m not trying to catch you out; I’m not especially interested in which party you support or not. You expounded that Irish people should be proud of themselves and not be focused on other “convenient relegation or mid-table team” countries; I was trying to explain to you why grown-ups think these comparisons with other countries are useful.

          6. Cian

            01101101 01100011
            You keep saying that you are impartial towards politics, that you are “Attenborough”, but at the same time you are slagging off the right/FG/FF and promoting left/SF. You then tell us you are going to/did vote SF.

            Who you vote for or support is your prerogative and I have no issues with that.

            But when you also say that you are unbiased and non-partisan then I’ll call you out.

          7. 01101101 01100011

            Hi Cian
            (doing this on a phone so apologies for any errors in advance)

            I’m impartial to your existing system because I’m not a part of it, I’m just a kid looking in at it from the outside. It’s arcane, broken and unfit for purpose. FFG, SF, Labour, Tories, Mickey Mouse Party, Catholic Church….I distrust ANY and ALL organisations. Politics, religion whatever. All the same. Common selfish goals, agendas, dogmas and usually always at someone else’s expense (and I don’t mean cash Cian) In my future view honestly its an artifact, like Louis XIV.

            re. SF. If you’re going to take down a system and re-architect it and build a new one you have to engage with it, don’t you? I can’t shout it to death, I can’t burn it down can I? But I can draw attention to it’s faults and work to find ways to reset it with the tools I have instantly available to me. What bit of that don’t you understand? regarding SF…don’t worry I know their agenda (32?) and screw that (as I have written on here before btw)

            In my own case I got 2 out of the 4 candidates I voted for in and in order of pref too:
            #1 Catherine Murphy SD
            #2 Reada Cronin SF
            or did I do that wrong?

            I have no interest in your trench warfare, if history has taught you anything at all is that definitely doesn’t work. I’m going to guess you and others believe I have some kind of agenda going on most likely because that’s the prism you view life thru, Us and Them.

            If I’m not Us then I have to be Them, don’t I?

            I’d venture that you are suspicious of my motivations because of that. OK. I don’t care. Sorry you feel that way. I don’t have the bandwidth to get inside your head and fiddle with your prisms and compasses or anyone else’s for that matter. I’m just a kid spending some time (way too much btw) having chats with others, learning and enjoying. ok?

          8. 01101101 01100011

            Hi Rob
            ok I’ll accept that
            but I don’t know how many times I have to explain that I’m not part of any grouping of political people in any shape of form….see my reply to Cian for more on that I’m on a phone it’s not so easy to type when ure fingers are cold :)
            thanks

        1. Cian

          Sorry 01101101 01100011. I’m trying to be realistic.
          Yes Ireland is wonderful, and the Irish people are wonderful. But being a “powerful, capable and proud people” doesn’t put food on the table.

          You can’t ignore reality. The reality is that there was a global depression. Ireland was f***ed. The IMF came in to bail us out. We borrowed €100bn+ to keep the country running! Each year between 2007 and 2017 the taxes being raised were less than the government outgoing. If we didn’t borrow we couldn’t keep paying social welfare (pensions, dole) Health Services (doctors and nurses, hospitals) and all other services (guards, firemen, etc). The books are now balancing – our taxes now match the outgoings. But our debt is massive – we’ve maxed out the credit cards.

          I compared us to Greece because they were in the same boat 10 years ago… but they are still f***ed.

          Reply
      1. 01101101 01100011

        well Cian

        you seem to have a few stats going on reading some of your posts here so you tell me?

        hint – there’s some very recent ones you could pore over when you have some time

        I would suggest FG wouldn’t know the answer to that supposition one way or the other because they clearly didn’t listen to those people in the first place

        did they, hm?

        Reply
      2. millie vanilly strikes again

        Speaking as a 30ish year old woman who has almost no chance of owning her own home while I rent and try to afford childcare, I do realise this Cian and thanks for the patronising reply.

        I studied very hard in school, having been told that if I worked hard and went to college and got my degree, I would have a better life than my parents. This has not been the case, not since I was in my teens. My life has been harder than my parents – something they have agreed with wholeheartedly. I work long hours, along with my partner, and for what? To be told that most of the houses in my area are outside of my price range because I haven’t enough disposable income to save a sufficient deposit and meet bank requirements for a mortgage.

        We are told the economy is booming again, we’re at full employment again, the country is a success. Well not from where I’m sitting. I don’t want to live in a country where my daughter has to wait 2 and a half years for a doctors appointment in temple Street for a simple dermatological ailment. I don’t want to live in a country where the infrastructure is failing in every way. I am tired of living in a country where owning a home (or even renting for a reasonable price) is seen as an impossibility. I am SICK of being told one thing by privileged and tone deaf politicians and living an entirely different reality, one where I feel I have no future.

        Reply
        1. class wario

          Great post.

          The FG lads have a list as long as your arm of metrics that supposedly show how well the country is doing and yet more and more people aren’t feeling it. There’s this almost steadfast refusal to acknowledge this in their ranks, as if the proles could be right and these numbers wrong! The worst wannabe technocrats ever

          Reply
        2. Cian

          Millie,
          I dunno if this fits you because I don’t know your circumstances. But to take a guess based on your age and CSO statistics. So this isn’t you, just someone who is 30.

          If she is 30 she was born in 1990.
          In 1990 the average age of a first-time mother was 26, so (if she is eldest) her mam was born 1964 (her dad in 1963).
          The parents would have finished school (at age 17) in 1981.
          – In the 1980s Ireland exported people. Anything from 2,000 to 44,000 people per year.
          – Unemployment was above 15% for the whole decade.
          – Mortgage Interest rates averaged 13%. The lowest was 9.25% in 1988

          The 80s were awful for most Irish people.

          I’m not saying this to take away from your experiences… it is tough now. But Ireland never had a “golden age”. (except possibly 1994-1997 where interest rates dropped, house prices stayed level, and unemployment dropped).

          Reply
          1. Slightly Bemused

            I disagree. I was born earlier than that, and my parents much earlier than that (but no, I am not a boomer, though I have siblings who are – from the time when Ireland could afford large families).

            My parent’s bought their first house by selling their car – it was enough to cover the deposit and the start of the mortgage. They did not have another car until many years and kids) later. We were a single income family and while I would not claim we were rich, we none of us went to bed hungry, and my father could mange all the bills. Admittedly we could save on child care because my mother stayed at home.

            But now, and for the last 20 years, I have not been able to even consider buying a house. My childhood home was bought for less than 50,000 euro equivalent. A few years ago, I saw it on the market for over 500,000 euro. I can now barely afford the rent on my place, let alone consider buying in my hometown.

            Throw stats from the CSO all you like – you do not know the realities faced by the individuals.

          2. Rob_G

            Bemused – houses were cheap because no-one had jobs. Your parents, who were paying double-digit interest on their mortgage, and 60% marginal rate of income tax, were among the ‘lucky’ ones – the 17% of people who were unemployed couldn’t afford to buy a house, no matter how cheap they were. One-fifth of graduates left Ireland within one year of graduation during the 1980s – we don’t hear the stories of their kids reminiscences about the 80s, because they just left and never came back.

          3. Cian

            In 1981 there were 326,429 15-19 year-olds in Ireland (i.e. born 1962-66).
            By 1986 this cohort had dropped to 286,424.
            By 1991 there were only 246,321. In ten years 80,000 people (25%) in that age group left Ireland.

            In 1986 there were 331,100 15-19 year-olds in Ireland (i.e. born 1967-71).
            By 1991 there were only 266,572. In five years 65,000 people (20%) in that age group left Ireland.

        3. Daisy Chainsaw

          That is it in a nutshell. “Full employment” includes people on zero hours, minimum wage, part time and also includes people living in hotels and hubs whose “full employment” doesn’t allow them to live normally. I got on the property ladder before the boom and bust. I had to have a deposit which limited what I could afford, which is just as well because the following year I probably could have gotten a 250k 110% mortgage no bother and with the subsequent collapse of the economy, I’d definitely be one of those homeless statistics.

          FFG economics of the last 15 years have failed and while I gave SF a low preference, I’m okay with seeing what they can do and if they make a mess of it, well then we’re no worse off than the debacle of the last FFG coalition years.

          Reply
          1. GiggidyGoo

            You’re also included in the full employment stats if you worked one hour in the week of the CSO Survey. Cian can confirm that

          2. Cian

            One if the stats I quoted earlier said median income rose by 14% between 2014 and 2018. So these aren’t low paid jobs

        4. Janet, I ate my avatar

          what Milly said, I came back here from France and have been amazed at how much harder life is here, how much less I get for my money and poorer quality too, plus a truck load of inconveniences. I get on a plane to see my gyno, female health care terrifies me, lucky me that I can

          Reply
          1. Janet, I ate my avatar

            my parents moved down here unqualified and my Dad was able to support all of us, buy a car and a house on a full time job, try that now

    1. 01101101 01100011

      that’s very nicely put I think

      but do you see?

      even with such a massive kick to the balls this guy and his ilk fail to display any sense of humility or apologise and STILL AREN’T LISTENING

      I just hope the deafness is limited to the likes of himself and that maybe, just maybe some of them at least get it

      Reply
  5. 01101101 01100011

    aaand my dashboard is just a sea of red lights now….

    Company %
    AIB Group Plc -5.44
    Bank of Ireland Group Plc -8.31
    Cairn Homes Plc -8.62
    Glenveagh Properties Plc -10.86
    Hibernia REIT PLC -6.98
    Permanent TSB Group Holdings plc -11.13
    Irish Residential Properties REIT Plc -8.65

    parasites scurrying, faster and faster, I wonder why?

    maybe that’s why some of your actors were getting so upset today, meh.

    our fault of course, not FFG atall atall

    Reply
    1. Cian

      Do you know that the state is a 70% shareholder in AIB? And a 5.4% drop probably wiped €500,000,000 off the value of that asset.
      That is bad for Ireland.

      Reply
      1. GiggidyGoo

        And the self same AIB announced the day after the election the sale of house mortgages to FGs mateys. Thanks blueshirts

        Reply
      2. 01101101 01100011

        Cian
        my point is that I’m sitting here watching all the major players in the current established ecosystem fall apart in various ways because the country’s citizenry have stood up and shouted HALT!

        Over the last couple of days I’ve observed:
        bias even vitriol from some who should in theory be neutral -broadcasters, newspapers, journalists, spin doctors, ex-politicians, historians with double barrel names…

        the above is just another metric exercise to me, I don’t take pleasure except for seeing some expected reactions come to pass and seeing and making the various linkages, dots

        ALL of those entities listed above are pillars in the current way of running this country with detriment to the very people who delivered FFG their message yesterday

        we own AIB. we? who we? whose asset? oh you mean the pile of debt?

        however. for me it’s just so interesting to observe that ALL of the list above have a run on, I’m no stockbroker but even I can see that….because their “stuff” is somehow threatened by an attempt to re-introduce some fairness into Irish life. how dare those voters!!! and I’d venture plenty of well off citizens who’ve bought into those shares in their portfolios off the backs of the less fortunate I bet are having a conniption at FFG and the “stupid” voters. and a sleepless night tonight no doubt awaits. wondering what’s gonna happen in the morning.

        Reply
        1. Cian

          Everyone’s Ireland.

          The State pumped €4.7bn into Bank of Ireland. BoI got back on its feet and was able to repay €5bn to the State. win-win.

          The State pumped €16bn into AIB (and ended up owning it). AIB is getting back on its feet and when we sold 25% to the market we got 6bn back. We still own a big chunk of AIB. If AIB succeeds then the State will get its money back (and possibly more). If it fails the state loses that money – money that could be used to pay off national debt, or build social housing, or whatever.

          Reply
          1. 01101101 01100011

            Hi Cian,
            this is one I struggle with. Can you explain to me why we can’t tax the bank on profits they make?

            Is it a business or not?

            Let’s say I start up a data punk enterprise tomorrow and it was ticking along, making some money. BUT I’m paying myself and my staffers poorly, we’re all fed up so I decide to change this and pay us a lot but it eats the profit. But I want profit because the people buying my data punk service need to see I’m successful and my books to show a profit margin.

            could I quietly ask the government or revenue dept. to lay off my corporate tax so I could maintain that false appearance? and if I could would that be fair on the other business out there and ultimately the people that rely on that taxation take?

            Is that not false accounting or am I missing something here? Is it part of some kind of economics strategy that’s too big for me to understand? Like a kind of voodoo economics system?

            thanks

          2. Cian

            I’m not an accountant. We can tax profits on banks. Albeit with one catch.

            My understanding is (which might have missed your question):
            Imagine you started a data punk enterprise in 2018 and put €100,000 into it and made no profit that year, and again in 2019 you put another €50,000 with no profit.

            If in 2020 your company finally makes €80,000 in profit you can get all this tax-free (as a write-off against the losses/investment in 2018). If you make 125K profit in 2022 you can get the first 70K tax free (as it is written off against losses in 2018/19).

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