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This afternoon.
Kildare Street, Dublin 2.
Protestors demanding the end of the lockdown outside Leinster House.
More as we get it.
Earlier: By The Dasboard Light
Sponsored Link
Everything. As It Happens.
This afternoon.
Kildare Street, Dublin 2.
Protestors demanding the end of the lockdown outside Leinster House.
More as we get it.
Earlier: By The Dasboard Light
of course it would be a bodger post
For all the crazy, and there’s a lot of it, this post has been great value for money….!
I too, like to rationalise my aimless life-choices by habitually blaming a shadowy world order for all my failures, where do I sign up?
Should be able to get an application form from the Labour Party.
Just sign up for the current 350 a week bonanza and no work required, couple hundred thousand aimless types loving it and hoping for an indefinite lockdown based media hysteria and cute statistics.
really ticking every oddball far righter talking point in these comments
By my count, the reasons people are following restrictions are as follows:
Looking forward to a programme of forced vaccination
People loving lockdown because of Free Money
The religion of neo-darwinism
Being normies that say “how high?” when British/German normies say “jump”
I might have missed some, apologies
Can you count that’s the real question?
You seem to be capable of a straw man though, plenty of time now to play in the hay on your socialist payment.
Count what?
hardly a bonanza after rent, food and bills Orla, where the hell do you live ? at your Mams ?
stop it you authoritarian
I agree it’s not for many and that will be worse going forward with tax increases.
There are however plenty of socialist crying out for universal basic income so they can sit around convincing themselves they will use said payment to become the next joyce or Edison, this 350 a week is ode to joy for them.
probably the minority though, if you were on jobseekers before you cannot access this payment
You have to have been in employment to receive the Covid Pandemic Unemployment Payment.
In.
Paid.
Employment.
Plenty of right wing nut jobs on the scratch too.
It’s why they’re able to protest 7 days a week.
I gotta say, I have some empathy with these protesters. It’s a lot more reassuring, in a way, to believe that global cataclysms of this sort are the result of planned actions on the part of shadowy cabals. It’s a way of trying to ascertain order; if something is ordered, then it can be changed/controlled/understood/explained. And then you might not feel as helpless.
However, the truth in most cases is a lot more terrifying. Frightening events just happen, and can impact on us quickly and devestatingly. That’s scary.
But in a way, aren’t you also doing what you accuse the protestors of doing?. In saying “Frightening events just happen” you’re implying that there’s no need to be concerned that those in a position of power would seek to capitalise on this crisis to the detriment of societies at large. A lot more reassuring to believe that, but it’s not facing reality..
For example, over 500 scientists have signed a joint statement warning against “unprecedented surveillance of society” through problematic apps for “contact tracing”. You can’t class these as irrational conspiracy theorists, surely?
https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/sites/contact-tracing-joint-statement/
“The undersigned represent scientists and researchers from across the globe. The current COVID-19 crisis is unprecedented and we need innovative ways of coming out of the current lockdowns. However, we are concerned that some “solutions” to the crisis may, via missioncreep, result in systems which would allow unprecedented surveillance of society at large.”
My comment has disappeared again – I’ll try reposting..
________________________________________________
But in a way, aren’t you also doing what you accuse the protestors of doing?. In saying “Frightening events just happen” you’re implying that there’s no need to be concerned that those in a position of power would seek to capitalise on this crisis to the detriment of societies at large. A lot more reassuring to believe that ,but it’s not facing reality..
For example, over 500 scientists have signed a joint statement warning against “unprecedented surveillance of society” through problematic apps for “contact tracing”. You can’t class these as irrational conspiracy theorists, surely?
https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/sites/contact-tracing-joint-statement/
“The undersigned represent scientists and researchers from across the globe. The current COVID-19 crisis is unprecedented and we need innovative ways of coming out of the current lockdowns. However, we are concerned that some “solutions” to the crisis may, via mission creep, result in systems which would allow unprecedented surveillance of society at large.”
Feed them bananas coz a monkey has more brains
Oh! Carrolls, I am but a fool,
please sell me a hat and flag,
I wanna look a tooooool.
+sedaka
Arrest, fine, repeat.
For exercising their right to protest? hard nut eh?
During a lockdown, yes.
But who says? I didn’t see any change in the lay that overrides your right to protest? Did I miss it?
Gatherings in a public of more than x number of people; if they were standing one-by-one 2m apart, like the Debenhams protesters, the point would be moot.
What “right to protest” are you referring to?
Where do you think you get that “right”? And does it trump other rights.
Read the new laws again.
Its mad how some new laws can remove the old laws of freedom so quickly. Its mad that an off license can stay open but its against the law for others to earn a living? Lots of this mess doesn’t make sense at all at all.
17 thicks ( and their poor kids) don’t deserve a slot. You’re just trying to rile up the other 4.9something million. G’way and give us a bit of news.
Aye, ’tis a small few gowels alright. Nothing to get riled up over. Your man giving the Garda sh*t does seem like a right bell end though.
Exactly. Thankfully, being a bell end isn’t an offence.
Who is funding these clowns, and gemma? Nothing to do with the far right in US? Yet all out with the tricolour.
The cesspit that is Twitter
Cut back on the sauce. The weekend is over. You’re all over the place as usual.
Really – read your posts from last night? I referred to sauce to you 30 minutes ago, and this is your response. Grow up. oh, and stay on topic. Are you now syaing as an ardent supporter of lockdown, you support these clowns? I know, a question, it will take hours to respond.
See Goo’s post below ;)
Ha haaaa. Says the guy who uses a line from an English songwriter as one of his names. Benign is right.
Says that lad with “Giggidy” in his own name :)
Clampers?
The only reason it takes hours to respond to you, is that I work and don’t have the comfort of time off school. ROFL!
I see you’re changing your questions – the true sign of a coward.
Yet my one question remains unanswered. I see your sidekick arrives pretty quickly after you make an utterance.
No doubt you’re one of those who will benefit from not doing the leaving cert.
Really using ROFL in posts? Real sign of maturity. I can’t believe you have a job. Go on tell us, is it in the SF office? Do you support the clowns outside the Dail (the Irish parliament) today?
Comments 60+ times a day.
“I have no time to reply.”
Play the comment, not the commenter.
“You must be a drunk”
Jay. Zus, gigs you’ve no shame.
And the line up gets itself arranged. The B9 lad to show up soon.
At least quote me properly Papi. I’ve never written “you must be drunk”
and doubtful I post 60 times a day. Easy go through today’s and count them. Knock yourself out.
You still haven’t anything to bring to the discussion of course. Oddly enough, your past few comments over the past few days are directed towards me. That says a lot about your capabilities to discuss anything.
::::::::::::::::::
As for the A-Thing. He’s all over the place. Assumes quite a lot, and slithers away when called out.
Again no response to the question I posed. You are a parody of someone you claim not to be. Do you understand “parody”? I have not slithered away, I have answered ever question you asked. You never do, because you are a coward, a playground bully. Do you support the clowns in court yesterday? Do you work for the shinners? Go on, coward, you can do it.
The answer is either yes or no. You’ve answered neither. Toggle along.
Toddle along even
What’s with all the flags at protests these days? I don’t remember that being a thing like 10 years ago or has lockdown destroyed my memory?
The conspiracy theorist, alt-libertarian protester is a very new phenomenon in Ireland – I would say only in past two or three years. But yes, lots of flags.
The flags in the photos above all look brand new to me – still have the fold marks.
Good point, if they were true patriots they’d get an iron out!
Paddys Day surplus
Heh :)
they must literally be looking at the yanks and copying them. and the yanks go mad for flags at theirs, so probably just following suit
I was thinking that. I hope we don’t pick up that flag obsession they have. Though it is great playing who can spot the biggest flag when driving round back water USA.
@Milkteeth
“What’s with all the flags at protests these days?”
I’d hazard a guess that it’s more to do with the evolution of the capitalist system we live in. The perception that the globalisation of finance has rendered the nation state increasingly powerless and that the only way left to stop the march of neoliberalism is through a renewed effort to reassert national sovereignty. It was just over a decade ago that the major financial crash happened and I think a lack of trust in the majority of the political class -who willingly impose neoliberal policies – has only grown since then. Perhaps increased flag waving is a reflection of all that even if a particular flag waver mightn’t be consciously thinking of it in quite that way?
On, and speaking of getting the iron out, I thought they wanted to get “norn iron” in? :p
Ahhh, f-lawless, does that mean I’m not allowed wear my Tricolor bikini with my matching towel and slurp black ‘n tan shots the next time I’m in Magaluf?
Meh.
To be fair, I don’t see anything here that requires money.
Are this lot the god crowd or new?
As the data becomes clearer that justified shutdowns those laughing and enraged at folks like this will be doing the same thing ,of course they will rationalize their protesting as non trumper/god like, non 5g etc
I’m looking forward to the dissonance and amnesia of the fanatical lockdown supporters as this unfolds, the “new normal” brigade.
It will take the English normies and the likes of the Germans normies to start it first and then our normie’s will start getting it, or maybe it will just require the 350 a week to be cut to 200.
normies.
heh heh heh
straight outta /pol/
Dav your comment is so inclusive and for the lads in on the joke, it’s really great ,well done now go back to cleaning your Star Wars figure retro collection.
Cool.
And post photos when you’re done.
someone shat in Orla’s breakfast, she has it in for people deprived of a living wage off their own efforts being supported by the people who made that decision…
I don’t have it in for them, many people have every right to it and don’t want to be on it.
Some however with socialists leanings are loving it, the same crowd who believe universal basic income is feasible in the current centralized system.
The problem is they may not have work to go back to after this lockdown and will be on 200 a week while the banks are being bailed out again and politicians continue with “normal salaries”, no new normal for the politicos or banks just the same old normal.
ok
I’m hearing your point, but it would be a disaster to wack everyone on jobseekers based on maybe your job won’t survive
definitely cut frivolous spending, including politicians wages
+1
And stop that €8k increase.
That’s what will be done ,they can’t afford 350 a week past mid June.
The problem is more jobs will be gone by Christmas ,business may chance opening again but many won’t be making much and will have little choice but to close,the banks are not going to keep supporting them when they are losing money, you can’t even call what the banks have done support to be honest……
Politicians may take token cuts,it will be laughable.
I’m guessing you are an optimist
Lockdown protest.
The mouthy guy wants the freedom to do as he wishes but then asks the garda to keep 2 metres back. lol.
HAH! Brilliant :)
Natural selection exists for these people ..
A member of the clergy of neodarwinist has arrived ,the allusion to superior intellectualism with statements like natural selection.
A religion based on the delusion that randomness and chance are the “organizing “principles of reality but this organization is chance and not organized.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Blimey, an evolution-denier, that takes me back.
Who denies evolution as a process here?
What I deny is the neodarwinist dogmatic interpretation of the process.
oh do you now how fascinating
yes Nigel it’s ‘a simple Hegelian dialectic’
Yeah bring back the Socratic Method.
…I blame Bodger…the place is crawling with creationists and flat-earthers since he gave them a platform…
He did what?
I missed that.
Be some craic in the comments I’d imagine :)
Variation initially occurs due to chance but adaptation is not down to chance at all.
This is hilarious!
You don’t get it George ,your stuck in semantics like all neodarwinists.
“Initially occurs” lols
Quick George round up a group and point fingers and laugh at me, throw labels like creationist at me, neodarwinism is a bit like the religious inquisitions of old or the fanatical lockdown types in the contemporary.
A bit like the inquisitions of old except without the arrests and tortures and trials and executions.
science isn’t a religion Orla it’s facts that can be proved,
Fact, theory and hypothesis.
@sidhe
That’s great a response sidhe, I’m guessing you have differing viewpoints to me but can’t quite process and articulate what that might be so resort to the old ad hominem.
No, I don’t just comment on articles like this, your brain wants it to be that way.
My main point is when people have time to establish the facts around mass shutdowns they will be protesting but their reasoning will be considered “rational” , this will be a cruel irony when keep in mind comments mocking the current crews protesting.
I’m not saying it vindicates the 5g conspiracy brigades before your brain starts up that straw man.
Eh….woah Nellie! Leave my brain out of it…you’re better off! Speaking of brains…yours seems to be having some smoke come out of it today. Log off and hug someone.
oh…that wasn’t for me. My advice still stands though.
Nice straw man , where do I call science a religion ?
Another authoritarian beating the drum of selective experts, selective facts and selective science.
Do you know what proof is relative to “science” and the word fact relative to science?
Clearly you don’t ,the history channel doesn’t go that deep.
Did you want me to be a creationist to make it easier for you?
you sure are quite the fan of using nonsense terminology in your arguments
i notice you only crawl out of your cave when these kinds of posts appear here on broadsheet, with a new buzzword for each time you do, dismissing anyone you disagree with as a journal commenter (lol) or as using strawman arguments (again lol)
neodarwinist this week, and what was it last week? some other bolloxolgoy I’m sure you only half understand
Hegelian dialectic i believe
hahaha
She Beag Sidhe Móre!!!
” a religion based on the delusion” that’s how your comment read
Let them at it
Since only this morning Helen McEntee admitted they’re still only “looking into” airport arrivals – over four months in
The virus arrived here through arrivals onto the Island
Either via an airport or a port
This lockdown is half arsed anyway
And I’m not swallowing another second of this Acting Government Governing through PR handlers
Enough
Its already done it’s worst AFAIC while we left it in the hands of an acting Government
Yay! Saved me a post. This lockdown has been a farce. Struggling to get any compelling case for it at this point. Deaths higher than they wanted, economy destroyed, care home disasters. Let people protest if they want.
Look back at the news from Italy when it first spread there. That is the case for the lockdown. A strategy works and people take everything for granted.
The case for Lockdown was solid
If it happened it late February and arrivals were blocked or at least transferred immediately to a managed mandatory isolation facility.
Bit too late now to still be looking in to it
And still no sign of the testing regime promised
contrarian hogwash!
That sounds like the kinda cocktail I’d drink
What’s in it
No veg I hope
Maybe an olive
I’d be ok with olives
Remember a time when eminent constitutional lawyers wore wigs and gowns instead of plastic tricolour hats and flags.
If the wig wearers had done their “job” and tested the legislation in the first place we wouldn’t have loons on the street.
In Europe and uk this was done as expected by the middle class.
In Ireland they are happy to test the law for a potential serial killer currently jailed ,his mobile phone data was unfairly used in his trial, of course they get paid for that.
It’s possible our financially hungry legal profession know the state will have a huge amount of claims against it after this because said law was flagrantly unconstitutional, why do you think GOD and friends are not being prosecuted.
The same profession were looking for no jury trials last week because they need the money!
‘If the wig wearers had done their “job” and tested the legislation in the first place we wouldn’t have loons on the street.’
Haha. Ahahaha. Hahahahahaha. Ha. Heh. No.
Pulling hair in the yard now, is your parrot like perceptive capacity running on empty for today, no cliche to parrot ?
Pulled your hair but the wig came off in me hand.
What do you mean by “test” the law? Laws are tested in court. The attorney general can’t take the state to court to test a law.
The case Gemtrails and John Waters tried to take was dismissed because it was without basis.
Demonstrate the law is constitutional .
Since the solicitors and barristers have more time they could have done it as member of the state instead of giving publicity to GOD.
I said nothing about the attorney general.
The Judge will give his decision tomorrow , George on the case against J & G .
The case BROUGHT by etc etc
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/gardai-to-enforce-two-week-quarantine-for-passengers-39198848.html
Another half-baked announcement. So the gardai might go to the advised addresses of passengers to enforce the quarantine. I can picture it. Gardai arrive and say “we’re here to check if Johann Smithius is adhering to his quarantine” Householder says “who is that?”
The Boy Wasters are really excelling themselves.
“Is there Derry Remains in the house” etc etc
Myra Mains
“We will die free”
Maybe sooner than you think! I hope these anti pharma cranks refuse hospital treatment when they get sick. Bitta magnesium, be grand, right?
Sick from what? Did you see the Corona death breakdowns in Ireland Yesterday? c500 people once care home deaths are stripped out. Thats before those with underlying conditions are taken out. It\s unlikely any of these people will contract Corona in that setting.
People who live in care homes dying shouldn’t count. People with underlying conditions dying shouldn’t count. All these deaths of people who weren’t in 100% perfect health before this virus arrived are making us look bad. It’s not fair.
A very simple split is all it takes
The total following by;
– Deaths with the COVID-19 virus present
– Deaths as a result of the COVID-19 virus
All it takes for what? Data is showing that death rates are high above historical averages in many countries.
https://www.ft.com/content/a26fbf7e-48f8-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441
Death rates may be high above statistical averages but it’s worth noting that in the UK (whose Office of National Statistics allows for public access to historical data), it’s certainly not an unprecedented phenomenon.
https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/05/covid-19-is-a-statistical-nonsense/
“we do know, thanks to the ONS , the total all cause mortality as a percentage of population in England and Wales over recent decades. This analysis shows us, while excess mortality this year is high, it is by no means unprecedented. In fact, as a percentage of population, it is notably lower to the comparable years of 1995, 1996, 1998 and 1999. Yet none of these years necessitated the shut down of the economy nor the dire health consequences of closing the NHS to all but a few patients.”
Also, it’s becoming clear that the lockdown measures themselves are contributing to a significant amount of non-covid realted deaths.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/two-new-waves-deaths-break-nhs-new-analysis-warns/
A related article from the UK’s Office of National Statistics that I found showing that comparable high levels of excess deaths for previous years have indeed occurred.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/highestnumberofexcesswinterdeathssince19992000/2015-11-25
Very simplistic comment from Commentator 1- They do count but when their deaths are being spun to deprive us of the right to go out then I have an issue with it. If the Govt were so concerned about infection and deaths why then did they not:
1. Go into care homes and test and commit to infection control, country wide.
2. Immediately work on points of entry and a coherent track/ isolation policy for incoming travellers ( still not done – so my mates from the UK can come on holidays here but I can’t go anywhere outside 5km)
3. Get testing organised – never did hit any of the test figures they said they would – now have a double issue in that they can’t do test turnarounds fast enough anyway. Needs to be dome in 2 days.
4. Get in place a track and trace team – have team, never really used it because they cant test (see (4) above).
Fun times.
The response has been inadequate and the testing regime is obviously not up to where it should be or where it was promised to be.
However, people are dying from this virus. If anything, the fact that our testing/tracing system is not in place is an argument for continuing/tightening the restrictions, not loosening them. “Oh well, we tried. Didn’t work. Everyone back to work.”
Anyway, I’m sorry to hear you have an issue with the deaths of people being spun to deprive you of the right of going out. A right of which you’ve not been deprived.
1. fair enough – but carefully so as not to spread COVID into homes that are currently virus-free.
2. the UK has told your mates not to travel for a holiday. Why are your mates so stupid? All the truck drivers coming in to Ireland keeping the country going need to be able to do their work – not be quarantined for 14 days.
3. We are towards the top of the tests/million population (more so if you exclude the tiny countries with less than 500,00 population). Better than most t of the EU. Testing is being turned around in 24 hours.
4. agreed. I’m not sure what is going on there – tracking has been quiet in the media. but then you have people bitching about their “rights” .
Commenter1 likes a straw man,anyone against lockdown denies the deaths is his current projection, commenter 1 thinks you still have rights when you are restricted from moving beyond 2-5km , my straw man for him -he’s a socialist waster enjoying his 350 universal basic income, he has no outgoing other than weed and liquor, this is the life for him.
He also links the financial times article which has been shown to be wrong in many of its assumptions, nobody except a few loons denies their are deaths from covid19.
On a serious note, commenter1 doesn’t understand just yet is that when testing is adequate it begs the question of why we are in lockdown in the first place. This is coming to light now the more we can get access to the data. The tracking system will be worthless at this point. He doesn’t understand PCR testing and the fact it amplify’s RNA and how that’s relevant to this saga, he doesn’t understand viral load and how it differs to few RNA strands being present.
What he doesn’t understand is many people are not dying form the virus ,people who are dying are dying from a cytokine storm which is indirectly caused by covid-19 and individual responses vary how the body responds, it’s a conflation and media alarmism to claim people die from the virus directly,it’s more to do with its indirect effect on the angiotensin system which varies amongst people and highlights why it’s the usual vulnerable groups more susceptible, viral load also a factor. Commenter 1 won’t get what the above implies here.
Putting people in their 70’s and 80’s on ventilation and inducing a coma before doing so in some cases is causing many more deaths than necessary ,this needs to be established.
Mass shutdowns are clearly not necessary, there is no exponential growth, it’s a spike and that’s it, that spike is present in countries with no shutdown, said spikes hit their high point under shut down, yes there are deaths but it doesn’t merit the actions of governments.
Commenter 1 is basically in the “what if’s” brigade shouting science and experts while ignoring science and experts.
Hi Orla! You’re right about the liquor but not about the weed. And you’re right about the socialist, but I’m fortunate enough to still be employed so not drawing down that €350.
You’re not right about much else though.
“People who live in care homes dying shouldn’t count. People with underlying conditions dying shouldn’t count. All these deaths of people who weren’t in 100% perfect health before this virus arrived are making us look bad. It’s not fair.”
I hope that comment is meant as a very subtle parody because otherwise god love you and anyone who knows you.
“Parody” gives me too much credit! It’s sarcasm, but that doesn’t always come across properly.
Is this O’Doherty/Waters’ shower again? Headbanging morons. Breeding too by the look of it.
Apropos of nothing related to this issue, the headline reminded me of a song by Vicky Leandros called ‘Let my People Go’ that I have not heard in years.
Thanks Bodger for the trip down memory lane :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIFH4SqES3Y&ab_channel=wodisi
Freedom comes with responsibility to do no harm to others. By behaving like this, they are preventing others from returning to a normal life for longer, by potentially putting my life at risk. How selfish.
never ceases to amaze me how parents can whore out their children for whatever dogma/whim they have dancing on their own shoulders…
whether it’s the excited kid unpackaging whatever cool toy vids on YT kerrrching$$$
re-imagining their own life via beauty pageant type nonsense
involuntary indoctrination into a religion
this kind of utter tripe outside Leinster House
etc.
disgusting
PS. sorry lads but you’re not really selling it to me
plus 1, leave your kids out of it
If I want to rent my kids out to these loons to use as protest props then that’s my right!
you might as well sell them, you won’t be able to fix em when you get them back
here you go guys…
https://it-it.facebook.com/TheLiberal.ie/videos/-warning-strong-language-and-anger-footage-emerges-of-drivers-very-heated-encoun/244622286598384/?__so__=permalink&__rv__=related_videos
Is that you on the vid Goo? It has to be. It sounds just like you except you never mentioned FG?
Jeez, looking at the link text, it’s obvious where the level of your capacity to think for yourself emanates. The Liberal? ROFL.
I see A-Thingy, has got aerated too.
Can yiz find nothing else to feed your brains? The Liberal? ROFL!x100
So it was you. Were you on your way to your “job”? I am actually laughing, not ROFL (because I’m more mature to post such nonsense).
On the above conversation, I have read a lot of papers on this, looked at data, I am not a virologist or a mathematician, what comes up again and again is that there is a growing view that social distancing itself is enough to flatten the curve, now, I know there is social distancing and social distancing……going to the park to read a book on a sunny day is not the same as going to drink ten cans with your 8 mates. My point is that the resources should be put into policing or promoting sensible social distancing. More and more I read about the value of herd immunity, virus exposure to less vulnerable groups, virus lifecycle etc.
If you mention herd immunity or the fact that mostly older people get this virus you are immediately labelled a left wing anti vaxxer or granny killer. Its possible to be nuanced in our understanding of this. We are in a society with immense freedoms, wealth and so much more opportunities but it seems we cannot have conversations that are pragmatic. My point on the deaths in Ireland was: for the 1500 (sadly deceased) people nearly 1,000 of them were in care homes/ end of life/ over 78 years old, the remainder (500 approx) were unlucky, underlying conditions etc. Very few young or healthy people died. The tracking of the graph in Ireland shows that it started to flatten pre lockdown, given the incubation period is 5 – 14 days this illustrates that the initial social distancing pre lockdown was probably enough to start to flatten it out.
The question is should the deaths of 1500 people result in the economic deprivation, unemployment, educational disruption we have experienced? It is nearly impossible to ask that without people going to pieces. But it has to be asked. Really it does. Sweden has shown that their figures are nearly the same as ours despite much less imposition. We are really good at taking the Govt line and being ‘model citizens’ by staying in. Why should we stay in though? Why can we not have more freedom? Because, everybody will shout, the virus will grow exponentially etc. I used to think that but I was luckily corrected by my father in law who is a scientist. He showed me curves, virus lifecycles and how to look at this differently. We can’t keep thinking what we are doing is the only way or the right way when there are tons of other appropriate ways to critically appraise (and change) our approach.
“Very few young or healthy people died.” What does that prove/demonstrate? Of course young, healthy people have a better chance of surviving a Covid 19 infection. They have a better chance of surviving almost everything! That’s what being healthy means, to an extent!
You’re making two arguments here, correct me if I’m wrong:
1. Herd immunity is a valid goal and arguing for a a strategy towards achieving it shouldn’t be vilified.
Fine. However, it has not been demonstrated that acquiring coronavirus and surviving it makes anyone immune to reinfection; in fact, as I recall there were reports of some individuals early on in Wuhan who were infected twice.
2. The curve was flattening before the restrictions and as such the restrictions were overkill.
I’ve asked this about a half-dozen times on here to no proper response: what possible motivation would the vast majority of world governments have in shutting down their economies for no reason? They can look at the same data as you. Why did the UK reverse course as it did?
“Why should we stay in though?” Because this is a new, contagious, dangerous virus that spreads quickly and often asympotmatically. Better to overreact in the fact of a virus that has caused an apparent increase of 50% in death rates in many countries than not.
Commentator 1
“Very few young or healthy people died.” What does that prove/demonstrate? Of course young, healthy people have a better chance of surviving a Covid 19 infection. They have a better chance of surviving almost everything! That’s what being healthy means, to an extent! –
A: So then why should they stay in? Why should kids under the age of 10 not be in school when its been shown they don’t transmit the virus?
You’re making two arguments here, correct me if I’m wrong:
1. Herd immunity is a valid goal and arguing for a a strategy towards achieving it shouldn’t be vilified.
Fine. However, it has not been demonstrated that acquiring coronavirus and surviving it makes anyone immune to reinfection; in fact, as I recall there were reports of some individuals early on in Wuhan who were infected twice.
A: Herd immunity is going to be one of the ways we come out of this, no one knows the length of time of immunity but it is clear that huge numbers are infected with no symptoms. The Wuhan reinfections were discounted yesterday as test failures.
2. The curve was flattening before the restrictions and as such the restrictions were overkill.
I’ve asked this about a half-dozen times on here to no proper response: what possible motivation would the vast majority of world governments have in shutting down their economies for no reason? They can look at the same data as you.
A: Because they all took the same tack early, it was what was recommended by the WHO, fair enough, once data and examples emerge though of alternative ways of doing it then we should be ready to accept these and change. In Sweden there are no politicians on the advisory board that decides on corona strategy, none, they have no input. Its medical experts only.
Why did the UK reverse course as it did? It should not have. Politics made for a bad choice. But it should have policed social distancing first, strongly.
“Why should we stay in though?” Because this is a new, contagious, dangerous virus that spreads quickly and often asymptotically. Better to overreact in the fact of a virus that has caused an apparent increase of 50% in death rates in many countries than not.
A: It does spread yes, but only in certain contexts, the research has identified high risk activities. Getting a takeaway, playing golf, tennis or going for a walk is not high risk. Working as an outside contractor is not high risk, shopping is not high risk in certain situations. There are lots of things we could be doing that are not high risk. People have limited time for accepting lockdown.
There is no countries that has an out of context 50% death rise above normal.
You could read up the studies of Michael Levitt – fascinating modelling. ( I mean this in a nice way not a snarky way!)
Johnnythree, I think you’re completely right to ask for nuance in this discussion. You want people to consider in a sober way whether the deaths of 1500 people should result in such social and economic disruption. But this isn’t the right question. The right question is surely what would have happened had the lockdown not been imposed – ie, it’s not a matter of balancing the negative effects of the lockdown with the numbers of actual deaths, but of balancing these effects with the numbers of lives potentially saved by the lockdown.
Do you have a link to the graph you mention which showed that Ireland’s curve (number of active cases, or rate of increase of these cases?) had started to flatten prior to the lockdown?
On the comparison with Sweden, George Lee has an interesting article on this on the RTE website: https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0511/1137763-what-can-we-learn-from-swedens-covid-19-icu-figures/
Lastly, it would be great if you could point us to any specific material cited by your father-in-law which suggests that the virus would not spread exponentially if the lockdown was lifted.
+1 on all that. And Johnnythree’s comment.
Makings of a great thread guys :)
Cian
I really do have to respond ( and then I go back to work!!)
‘the UK has told your mates not to travel for a holiday. Why are your mates so stupid? All the truck drivers coming in to Ireland keeping the country going need to be able to do their work – not be quarantined for 14 days’ A: I agree with you, but I don’t make Govt policy, why, 6 weeks laster do we not have policy on this? Mad. Fully agree with you. The Govt needs to do it, urgently.
3. We are towards the top of the tests/million population (more so if you exclude the tiny countries with less than 500,00 population). Better than most t of the EU. Testing is being turned around in 24 hours.
A: But that does not matter unless you have track and trace with an ability to impose a quarantine on the infected. We don’t have that. Test as much as you want but without being able to turn that test quickly within two days maximum you might as well not do it because the infected person is shedding the virus and reinfecting. So testing as a metric is useless even if we have the highest rate in the world. It’s like the guards doing a breathalyser on Saturday night and letting you drive on if over the limit. Pointless. Testing is nowhere near 24 hours. The data is out today on the rates. Woefully bad.Without testing + follow up quickly its a waste of time.
I was answering your questions.
Now you’re changing them! :(
When you say “data is out today on the rates. Woefully bad.” – can you point me toward that data it please?
I’ve often wondered why people who complain that their nation is part of an international conspiracy seem to find comfort in their nation’s flag !
Because they are best described as nut jobs.
Ah c’mon
And that goes for everyone else too btw
Can we knock off the name calling
And passing remarks about their mental capacities
Like I said earlier
Lay’ve them at it
The usual control freaks hate being controlled. They can’t hack that they’re no longer the ones doing the controlling so they’re throwing a tantrum that a 5 year old would be embarrassed by.