Anti-Social Engineering

at | 28 Replies

Physical Distancing guidelines for pubs

Kev writes:

Have you seen the actual guidelines proposed for bars (see above)?  They are either trying to kill the pub or destroy any sense of community a pub can provide. I would love to know why.

f_lawless writes:

There’s a feeling of inevitability about this descent into absurdity. The Irish ruling class don’t do accountability.

A policy reversal is unthinkable. Instead of holding their hands up and admitting the blanket shutdowns were an overreaction – that it’s time to open up and let citizens take responsibility for their individual behaviours, they’re now desperately trying to save face and keep the narrative going with these overly-cautious trade-off measures.

It doesn’t matter that nowhere in Europe has seen a sustained rise in cases after easing lockdowns or holding mass gatherings in recent times. Arbitrary numbers are plucked out of the sky.

How can any citizen have respect for an authority that will tell them to obey a 105 minute time limit for their own good when it’s plainly obvious that taking personal responsibility completely overrides that? If anything, setting a short time limit may encourage rapid binge-drinking in some.

Guidelines For Reopening Pubs (Fáilte Ireland)

Earlier: A Limerick A Day

 

28 thoughts on “Anti-Social Engineering

  1. George

    The blanket lockdowns were not an overreaction they successfully reduced the spread of the virus. The success of the measures gives some people who aren’t too bright the illusion that they were unnecessary because people aren’t dying of Covid-19 in large numbers. If they were then the lockdown measures would have been pointless. Success is the absence of people with the virus so there isn’t really anything to see.

    There is a joke in Public Health that you know you got things right when people say you over-reacted. The disease has been contained pretty well and we avoided the kind of situation they had in northern Italy, New York and now in Arizona. Beijing is currently experiencing a second wave and has returned to lockdown.

    Reply
    1. Johnnythree

      ‘The blanket lockdowns were not an overreaction they successfully reduced the spread of the virus’ – You have not looked at the virus peak graphs then I take it. Most countries peaked pre lockdown, Ireland did. The lock down was excessive and the pub guideline nonsense is more of it. Sure, social distancing and mask wearing and hand washing and avoiding large groups are good ideas. But close industries, close offices, schools?? Madness.

      Reply
    2. SOQ

      Lets unpack this for a moment

      1. The blanket lockdowns were not an overreaction they successfully reduced the spread of the virus.

      The blanket lockdowns WERE an over reaction because even in countries like Japan with no lockown- the modeled projections were way off the scale.

      2. The success of the measures gives some people who aren’t too bright the illusion that they were unnecessary because people aren’t dying of Covid-19 in large numbers…

      There is no evidence that in the long term, lockdowns have saved lives- and by lives I mean ALL lives, not just those affected by Covid-19.

      3. Success is the absence of people with the virus so there isn’t really anything to see.

      What percentage have not been exposed to this virus?- Right now, nobody knows. The only certainty is that the % fatality rate will continue to decrease.

      4. The disease has been contained pretty well and we avoided the kind of situation they had in northern Italy, New York and now in Arizona.

      Complete speculation. A virus does not impact in some places more than others just by infection rares. North Italy and NYC has high air pollution issues for example.

      5. Beijing is currently experiencing a second wave and has returned to lockdown.

      Beijing is experiencing a first wave not second and their banning of European fish imports is why?

      Reply
      1. George

        The have taken fish off the shelves as the virus was found on a chopping board at a market that had been used for imported fish. We don’t really know how it got their though and there’s no real evidence of it being spread by fish. There is however real evidence that it is spread through exposure to droplets resulting from spending time in close proximity to infected people especially indoors.

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        1. SOQ

          My main question is that Beijing never really had a first wave so why paint this as a second?

          Personally I suspect there is a link to the handling of raw meat as a number of species have already tested positive for CoVid-19 and, there is a disproportionate number of human outbreaks in such environments, right across the globe.

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          1. millie von strumpet

            Beijing is an incredibly high density area, and their lockdown has been incredibly strict as a result of this and their previous experience with pandemics of this nature. There have also been numerous rowbacks on the easement of lockdown in different regions of Beijing in an attempt to keep the spread of the virus to a minimum. It is only in recent weeks that the lockdown eased in any way significantly, and they have now ramped up the lockdown again.

            I have a sibling who lives in Beijing and his region has been in varying degrees of lockdown since late January. They are now in full lockdown again for the time being.

          2. SOQ

            In fairness Millie we are relying in the information supplied by the Chinese Communist Party and if their Irish equivalent is anything to go by- whatever they say means you instinctively swing in the opposite direction.

          3. millie von strumpet

            That’s a fair point, and I don’t think anyone would disagree with you there, queenie. I think my point is more that the situation regarding the lockdown in somewhere like Beijing is that not quite a blanket lockdown, it varies from region to region within the city even. I’m not sure why this particular story has blown up over here. My brother’s region, for example, had full lockdown reinstated over about ago after a new batch of cases were reported, and then it was lifted again for a number of weeks, and as I said, he lives in Beijing.

    3. f_lawless

      Sorry George but you’re displaying the logical fallacy “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” (“after this, therefore, because of this”) – ie. because the Irish government imposed a blanket shutdown, we avoided the experience of northern Italy etc. Where’s your scientific evidence for this? At this point there’s various scientific research concluding that the blanket lockdown measures (as opposed to social distancing) were ineffective . To cite one example: the recent study funded by UK government body, the “National Institute for Health Research” which studied 30 European countries and among their conclusions stated that “widespread closure of all non-essential businesses and stay-at-home policies do not appear to have had a significant effect on the number of Covid-19 cases across Europe”.

      https://www.uea.ac.uk/about/-/new-study-reveals-blueprint-for-getting-out-of-covid-19-lockdown

      It’s now conventional wisdom that there’s a whole range of factors external to the virus itself that are influencing each country’s experience.A few examples: population age, density, health, weather, and of course, air pollution. No doubt more will become clearer with time. It’s simplistic in the extreme to assert that by locking down we avoided northern Italy’s experience – which has the oldest population and the highest air pollution in Europe. You’re coming on here accusing people of “not being too bright” when it’s apparent you’re not particularly well informed on the subject.

      As for the proportionality of the lockdown measures, I think Peter Hitchens had a good analogy:

      ” (It’s like the) man who sets fire to his own pyjamas, while he is wearing them, to cure himself of hiccups.
      Now he stands naked and scorched, as his house burns around him, and exults that his hiccups have indeed gone away.. “

      Reply
  2. TypeONegative

    Those contributions read a bit like extracts from those anti-lockdown conspiracy theorist groups on facebook. I took a massive pay cut because of the lockdown situation and I could genuinely lose my job any day, but I’ll take an excess of caution if it saves the lives of the vulnerable.
    In regards to personal responsibility as a strategy, I trust my fellow Irish person as far as I can throw them, and I don’t have big arms. Give em an centimetre and they’ll take a kilometre. Lack of accountability is not necessarily class-specific here.
    The hand-wringing comment about losing a sense of community a pub provides is a joke. Thousands have DIED. Are these people for real?

    Reply
    1. Johnnythree

      ‘Thousands have DIED. Are these people for real? ‘ – Most of the people who died were in care homes. That a whole other conversation and is very sad and a result of very bad planning, really though. Strip out the figures and look at total deaths? Less than a thousand. Out of a population of nearly 5 Million….we locked down for that.????? Certainly makes me think.

      Reply
      1. ReproBertie

        Do people in care homes not count as real people Johnnythree?

        We locked down to prevent the virus spreading to the point where the ICUs where overwhelmed and decisions had to be made about who to move to ICU and who to leave to their own devices. Covid patients of all ages went to ICU and recovered. How many of them would have died if the ICUs were overrun? How many more would have needed ICU beds if we had not locked down? We don’t know because we did the right thing in having a lockdown and reducing the spread.

        Reply
        1. Johnnythree

          @ ReproBertie – Here’s the line that you missed from my note above’ Most of the people who died were in care homes. That a whole other conversation and is very sad and a result of very bad planning’

          Thats an interesting slant you have though -‘We don’t know because we did the right thing in having a lockdown and reducing the spread’ – How do you know that? Especially when most of the evidence shows lockdown was completely over the top. How did lockdown reduce the spread? How do you know?

          I would have thought that given its June most people would have read enough to form sensible opinions from the facts.

          Reply
          1. ReproBertie

            What evidence shows that the lockdown was an over the top reaction to stopping the spread? The science around the R0 in Ireland alone shows that the lockdown reduced the spread. That’s one of those facts that help people form sensible opinions.

    2. SOQ

      Those contributions read a bit like extracts from those anti-lockdown conspiracy theorist groups on facebook.

      You may be right but please tell me why Cahill is so dangerous as to be banned from RTÉ? Do they understand The Streisand Effect or are we just staring at a line of over paid lazi ostrich bottom holes?

      Reply
  3. Johnny

    ..have you seen Larry Goodman more like it…..this is a lot of 10 dollar burgers….was it done to comply with the food thing ?
    “On Friday, the Department of Agriculture announced the allocation of €50 million to provide for a support scheme for beef finishing farms which have been severely impacted by the economic effects of the COVID-19 pandemic.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/e5be7-daily-briefing-on-the-governments-response-to-covid-19-monday-15-june-2020/#nursing-homes

    Looking for some background on the killing fields -aka care/nursing homes-seriously 50 million to who- it does not say but should…I’m always a little leery of Friday news dumps by govt’s.

    Reply
    1. Johnny

      ..update looks like Larry got another 50 mil from Big Phil-so thats 100 million in one week for FFG supporters.

      “A fund of €50 million for Irish beef farmers has been agreed by the European Commission. The Irish government will have the possibility to match this fund, which should bring the total amount of financial support for Irish beef farmers to €100 million.

      Speaking this afternoon, the EU Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Phil Hogan, said that “this fund recognises the particular difficulty that Irish beef farmers have experienced during an unprecedented and sustained period of low prices, principally driven by events beyond their control. This fund will support a fragile but very important sector and protect its long-term viability. The European Commission has concluded that the sector is in need of an immediate response.”

      https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/50-million-euro-eu-fund-for-irish-beef-farmers_en

      But no money to inspect care and nursing homes, oh well at least the dead cows are ok…..coming to a pub soon-100 million for fooking burgers and no nurses or care workers, never mind PPE-FFS!

      Reply
  4. John F

    I don’t drink and am not overly concerned about changes to pubs. The real effects of this antisocial engineering drive will be felt when the €350 a week safety net is pulled out from under people.
    There are plenty of white knights defending the government’s actions during this crisis, but I would point out that in terms of deaths Per capita being at the higher end of the spectrum in Europe.
    The economy is not like an engine, it can’t be switched on and off, lots of jobs will not be coming back. Many will be coming back with decreased wages! More social welfare claims, coupled with less tax payments will ultimately lead to a decrease in public services as the government tries to balance the books. This will ultimately contribute to the deaths of many, people did not take cancer screening, go of the GPs for early detection and treatment of disease. People not working will undoubtedly have negative repercussions, in terms of mental health, ability to finance head/heating/diet quality etc.
    it’s claimed that we saved X number of lives by taking the actions we did. Of course that’s debatable , but for the sake of argument let’s assume that is true. It’s quite likely that many multiples of X will die in the future as a contributory result of what was done now.

    Reply
  5. Dr.Fart

    i’d imagine these complaints came from publicans. Who’s greed comes to the surface every now and again. This time its “ah safety measures against a deadly virus is ridiculous, and not being able to pack my pub to the rafters is an attack on .. em.. dont say profits dont say profits.. em, OH the community. yes. the community is being attacked”

    Reply
  6. Niallo

    eh, so can we go for scoops now or wah ?
    Seriously, either open the pubs or dont.
    I cant be bothered with all this waffle, which is what it smells like.
    Also cant be bothered with a “soft opening” or silly time limits.
    The rare occasion i do get out, i want to forget the troubles of the day/week.
    After all, makin your way in the world today takes everything you’ve got, takin a break from all your worries sure would help a lot, wouldnt YOU like to get away ?

    Reply
  7. jamesjoist

    Those politicians who would wish the Government to accede to the lobbying by the Vintners , will they accept responsibility for an upsurge in the spread of the virus ?

    Reply
  8. Johnnythree

    @ ReproBertie -What evidence shows that the lockdown was an over the top reaction to stopping the spread? The science around the R0 in Ireland alone shows that the lockdown reduced the spread. That’s one of those facts that help people form sensible opinions.
    Take a look at fLawless post above who says it better than I can. There is no science around RO go read the papers. It’s not a measure thats used. The key numbers are deaths (indisputable) and hospital figures. You’ll find cases if you keep testing so RO will go up. You are not very sensible at all, hang onto the Govt narrative tho, it’s served you well thus far. Trading your liberty because Simon Harris said so. Jesus.

    Reply

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