59 thoughts on “Tuesday’s Papers

  1. Mary (Never) Wong

    Unfortunately lots of people with horses ignored the lockdown and travelled from Kildare and other lockdown counties to Wexford on Saturday for an event. Seems getting a rosette is more important than health or saving a life. They even have no problem posting pics confirming their travel to and from Wexford. When the event organiser was asked their response was to delete the questions. So much for in it together.

  2. f_lawless

    This is of note:
    A German psychological study with about 1000 participants found “severe psychosocial consequences” due to the introduction of mandatory face masks in Germany..

    https://corona-transition.org/der-maskenzwang-ist-verantwortlich-fur-schwere-psychische-schaden-und-die

    I copied a few parts from google translate:

    The first comprehensive, representative and completed research gap study in Germany on the existing mandatory face mask measures may have unforeseeable legal consequences: Millions of people could sue because the burdens, complaints and subsequent damage that have already occurred are scientifically proven for the first time…

    ..The general corona situation has made things significantly worse, as psychologist Antje Ottmers explains: “Since everyone has to wear a mask in certain areas, the psychological effects have increased massively”..

    ..“The fact that about 60 percent of people who are clearly burdened with the measures are already experiencing severe psychosocial consequences, such as a greatly reduced participation in life in society due to aversion-related efforts to mask-wearing, social withdrawal, reduced health self-care to avoid doctor’s appointments or to reinforce existing health problems such as post-traumatic stress disorders, herpes and migraines, exceeded all expectations of the examiner ..

    ..The point is that the mask changes our very being. “People are no longer perceived as human, but as a danger – and a danger often has to be fought,” explains the psychologist, and: “From my point of view, the use of the mask is negligible, given the damage it causes to the psyche”

    It’s just a mask FFS?

    1. Lilly

      And you can’t eat a 99 while wearing one. Although now that Teddy’s sprinkles are suspect, that might be a psychological boon.

    2. SOQ

      So much of our communication is unconsciously through facial expressions and when we cover our faces, that is lost. We become dehumanized and feel isolated which is bound to have an impact on mental health.

      And then you have the downright pig ignorant bottom holes verbally assaulting and intimidating people with hidden disabilities, when in fact it is none of their business why someone else cannot wear a mask.

      And for what? Something that the experts cannot even agree on, introduced when hospitalizations and fatalities are near zero, based on some mysterious ‘new science’ than nobody can find.

      1. MacGafraidh

        Anti Mask Mob shock shoppers.. I was getting ready to write ‘there’s SOQ and Co.’ and you’ve a comment in already talking absolute pony.

        I wear a mask and I don’t feel dehumanized nor isolated so don’t tell people how they feel, just because you feel like that.

        Broadsheet should take the same stance as Twitter and remove Ill-informed posts. You’d lose your platform fairly quick and be forced to stand outside the GPO with your microphone and speaker on wheels preaching your propaganda.

        1. SOQ

          And because you don’t feel dehumanized nor isolated nobody does so. There is nothing ill informed about my comment- BBC Breakfast even covered the topic this morning.

          They interviewed a disabled rights person who appealed for understanding from the general public and a GP who stated that patients did not have to wear masks in her surgery if they feel uncomfortable doing so.

          Also, a guy who is now forced to remain at home because he has mental health issues, cannot wear a mask so cannot go out at all now- that is WRONG !

          1. MacGafraidh

            What are you talking about SOQ. First off all the BBC is hardly a foundation for validating your point. Do you use Rte or TG4 as point of reference?

            Second of all the rest of what you said is absolute nonsense. There are exclusions (extensive exclusions) to mask wearing including your previously mentioned asthma, anxiety and as taken from the HSE site: anyone who has special needs and who may feel upset or very uncomfortable wearing the face covering.

            So explain to me why you’re so hell bent on degrading the use of masks given that those examples you use are actually exempt from mask wearing.

            Lads let’s be real. I don’t know wherther they work or not. I practice good hygiene and repeatedly wash my hands often. I choose to wear a mask because if it does anything, I benefit. There’s no negative to me wearing one only a possibility of a positive outcome. More to the fact that it reassures the elderly and those around me who are anxious about this whole scenario especially my family who watch me leave the home and return each day and who rely on me using some common sense to keep the risk of contracting covid at a minimum. What’s your problem with that SOQ.

          2. SOQ

            I used BBC as a point of reference because UK is further down this road than we are- and if those exemptions were fully understood by the general public, disability activists would have no need to go on national television and appeal for understanding.

            There is no reason to assume it is going to be any different here.

          3. GiggidyGoo

            How does one identify which people then are exempt from wearing a mask? Does someone have to explain their medical conditions to shop staff? Do they have to prove that they have those conditions, and How?

          4. SOQ

            Unless the law is different here to the UK- which I doubt- they are exempt if they say so. The only people who are allowed to enquire any further are doctors.

          5. Cian

            @SOQ
            Unless the law is different here to the UK- which I doubt- they are exempt if they say so. The only people who are allowed to enquire any further are doctors.

            Can you provide evidence for that second statement?

          6. Junkface

            I wear a mask or bandana when out in the shops in Germany, even though it makes speaking a bit more difficult and people understanding my German also more tricky, everyone tries to be as cheerful as possible. This effort makes you feel better and makes them feel better. Of course we would like to see our facial expressions but this is just temporary.
            I don’t understand how it can cause severe stress to some people, but I will have to look up those conditions. Sure look at women in Burkas in Muslim communities, now we might all know how restricted they feel when trying to communicate.

          7. SOQ

            @ Cian

            They can ask if you have a disability but they cannot ask what that disability is. If for example that disability is a mental issue and the questioning leads to undue duress, the service provider may be liable.

            It is public liability insurance driven rather than hard law.

          8. Cian

            So if I am a shopkeeper and someone arrives in without a mask I can stop them entering until I am satisfied why they haven’t got a mask.
            I can ask them why they aren’t wearing a mask.
            And unless I am satisfied with their response* I can refuse to serve them.
            I can call the police if they refuse to leave or wear a mask.

            * this may be that they say something like “I have a medical condition that prevents me from wearing a mask”.

        2. :-Joe

          You’re acting like an eejit there…

          Health professionals and psychologists have been talking about the effects of masks on certain vunerable minorities for months…

          On people with disabilities, particularly autism who heavily rely on face to face non-verbal communication for all kinds of reasons.

          It was on the radio yesterday and about three times in the last week alone, just from my limited experience.

          People need to calm down and assume the best more often…

          How and when are we going to deal with the growing epidemic of eejits?..

          :-J

        3. scottser

          Here, put your bleedn pitchfork away, ya clown. If anyone should be banned from here its pearl-clutching foghorns who can’t debate a point on its merits. SOQ at least does his homework – where is your evidence to the contrary?
          I doubt youll find SOQ haranguing oul dears down at aldi for wearing a mask, but you definitely seem the type.

          1. MacGafraidh

            Thanks for your input scottser., definitely no pitch fork, no issue with SOQ but 100% have an issue with telling people who are mask wearing that they’ve lost their free spirit.
            I have a major problem With someone coming on here and repeatedly spreading that same nonsense over and over again on as many posts as they can. I am debating. The issue here is that no matter what anyone says, I can go off and find ‘a report’ or ‘a study’ to contradict someone’s point. That doesn’t make my point right. And it doesn’t validate anything just because you can spitfire off stats or Information so I’ve every right to challenge. In this case, we’re talking repeatedly about the use of masks. Disregard any facts or studies. Why wouldn’t anyone who can, wear a mask? And why is SOQ so hell bent on pushing propaganda that says mask wearing has no benefit. Common sense should prevail here. People make their own choices for their own reasons. Everyone needs to Get over it, me included.

          2. Mary (Never) Wong

            Unfortunately lots of people with horses ignored the lockdown and travelled from Kildare and other lockdown counties to Wexford on Saturday for an event. Seems getting a rosette is more important than health or saving a life. They even have no problem posting pics confirming their travel to and from Wexford. When the event organiser was asked their response was to delete the questions. So much for in it together.

      2. Cian

        @SOQ
        If dealing with people wearing masks is making you dehumanized, feeling isolated, and impacting on your mental health – I suggest you stop posting on Broadsheet and other web pages.

        1. :-Joe

          I think you’re confused Cian and not for the first time…

          You’re asking someone who is trying to represent the viewpoint of disabled and vunerable minorities in society to either self-censor or just go and stay away from this public platform.

          It’s one way of doing things but not a clever approach for anyone who considers themselves to be acting with a reasonable and sound, open mind.

          :-J

        2. SOQ

          @ Cian

          I am not talking about myself but may I make a suggestion?

          Take yourself off and do a disabilities awareness course- because you clearly need it.

    3. :-Joe

      So far, what’s the best and most convincing argument, backed by science ofc. proving the efficacy of masks as positive or negative etc.?

      It’s 50/50 for me, I can’t decide if it’s worthwhile overall or a completely pointless excercise?…

      Anyone?…

      :-J

      1. Cian

        A report, published in Nature journal in April, said: “Face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets.”

        Another study used high-speed video to track droplets and found even holding a washcloth over the mouth was effective in blocking the droplets (similarly a microbiologist shared photographs of bacteria culture spread with and without a mask).

        An international report published in The Lancet on 3 June, which analysed data from 172 studies in 16 countries, found that by wearing a face mask there is just a 3% chance of catching COVID-19. And a study by Cambridge University, published on 10 June, says even basic homemade masks can reduce transmission – and could even help prevent a second wave.

        A separate study, conducted by the University of Edinburgh, and published on 2 July also suggested that wearing a face covering could help reduce the spread of coronavirus from people who are carriers. The research showed that wearing a covering over the mouth and nose can reduce the forward distance travelled by an exhaled breath by more than 90 per cent.

        On 8 July, Oxford University’s Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science, published a study, with the message: “Cloth face coverings, even homemade masks made of the correct material, are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 – for the wearer and those around them” and warned “face masks and coverings work – act now”.

        Links to the studies are in the original page:
        https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/face-masks-coverings-coronavirus-do-they-work-shops-transport-a9617666.html

        This may be propaganda. There are conflicting statements above about who is being protected. I haven’t read any of the studies.

        1. :-Joe

          Ye, thanks for the reply…

          I’ve read a couple of those too and agree the propaganda debate i.e. face mask fiasco will continue until a vaccine is found..

          BTW. Any luck on the left vs right debate?..
          – At least tell me you accept that F-f/g are firmly on the right( leaning to far right imo) of the spectrum?

          :-J

          1. Gerry

            I believe the conclusions of peer-reviewed scientific journals, especially those of Nature and The Lancet, gold standard publications, over a singe registered nurse with a masters in Science.

          2. f_lawless

            Gerry you sound like a man of science. I’m reposting part of an old comment of mine for you to consider:

            – Several randomised control trials have been conducted over the last decade to determine how effective masks are in preventing community spread during flu pandemics. The vast majority of them concluded that there was no evidence that masks reduced the spread. One or two concluded that there was very little evidence masks had any significant effect

            – In 2019 the WHO carried a large scale meta-analysis of 10 of these RCTs. They concluded:
            “OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS
            Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza”

            Here’s a link to the document on the WHO’s website where that quote is taken from. (page 26)
            https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789241516839-eng.pdf?ua=1

            – This was the WHO’s policy status on masks up until June 2020 when they suddenly reversed their recommendations citing new evidence. The problem was, however, that they were now disregarding all of the previous RCT’s in favour of new research which wasn’t itself an RCT but lower down in the hierarchy of scientific evidence. The new research even recommended in its conclusion that RCT’s be conducted to inform its findings. This wasn’t done.

            – That in itself was an indication that something was seriously amiss with the WHO, but then the BBC’s political correspondent, Deborah Cohen apparently confirmed suspicions on Jul 12, saying

            “We had been told by various sources that the WHO committee reviewing the evidence had not backed masks but recommended them due to political lobbying. We put this to the WHO who did not deny”

            The studies recently published in the Lancet et al are not randomised control trials. Furthermore we now see that sadly, the likes of the Lancet and British Medical Journal are susceptible to the politicisation of science. Both publications were recently exposed for having published studies that used a completely fake data analysis company named Surgisphere, as their basis. After the scandal emerged, the studies were retracted.

          3. Cian

            @f_lawless / SOQ
            What is your view on wearing masks? Assuming there is reasonable education on how to wear masks safely.

            Do masks prevent the spread of COVID?
            On a scale of 1…5; (5 is that it is very good at stopping COVID transmission; 4 a bit good; 3 there is no benefit to stopping/spreading COVID; 2 it slightly increases the likelihood of COVID transmission; 1 is that it highly increases the transmission of COVID)

            What is your view on risks/benefits associated with wearing masks (all risks outside COVID)?

            On a scale of 1…5; (5 is that there are many positives associated with wearing – masks – e.g. reducing the stress in others possibility of reducing other transmissions; 3 is that there is zero other benefits/risk; 1 is that wearing a mask causes additional issues (other disease/anxiety/etc)

          4. Gerry

            Friends, here are a couple of studies in addition to those posted by Cian. There are many more along the same lines but I can’t read them because I’m not a researcher and Elseiver subs cost thousands per year. Maybe someone else here can post if they have access and the posters think it worthwhile.

            Cochrane Review
            Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses http://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/abstract Implementing barriers to transmission, such as isolation, and hygienic measures (wearing masks, gloves and gowns) can be effective in containing respiratory virus epidemics or in hospital wards. We found no evidence that the more expensive, irritating and uncomfortable N95 respirators were superior to simple surgical masks.

            Medicine in Microecology

            Epidemiology reveals mask wearing by the public is crucial for COVID-19 control

            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590097820300124?via%3Dihub

            In this article, by reanalyzing the epidemiological curves and simulated daily infected cases, we provide evidence that wearing masks in the public is the most crucial measure for public health control of COVID-19

          5. :-Joe

            @SOQ – In reply to your link you posted above….

            I only needed a couple of minutes of half the time to see that it appears to be credible…
            It’s convincing to be honest so I can see why so many people would believe in it and many similar articles or websites… Although, wait a minute..

            “Appears”, being the operative word because unfortunately you’re indirectly promoting the ant-vaccine lobby that has rooted itself deep into the discourse online and accross all forms of mainstream media, particularly in and spreading out of ‘murica.

            Patricia Neuenschwander, full-bright scholar and health professional “appears” to be promoting facts based in science, proven research and data but really?… Is she even aware her name is being used and fully aware how it’s being used?… Is it possible that despite her experience, even she has been led astray, self-deluded or even duped?…

            The book linked from the article on how to have a healthy immune sytem together with vaccination for children “appears” to be credible too… Again, “appears” to be but it’s not.

            As Cian’s post above and the link points out, It’s an anti-vaccine cognative bias delusion. A delusion that has evolved into a conspiracy driven by a well organised and well-funded lobby that is growing.

            It continues growing from part misinformation, part delusional thinking, part intentional fraud or money making scams and like many health professionals far more intelligent than me… I’m also still trying to find out and understand the other part(s) at play..
            – i.e. Why, who or what is the motivation(s) behind all the money being piled into it above and beyond the science and history of how it came about.

            The science of Anti-Vaccination
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzxr9FeZf1g
            -Explains a lot of the science behind the cognative bias problems and some of the history of vaccines outside the nature of it always being a political lightening rod relating to distrust in government, corporations or any conspiriacy theory.

            Just look at this interview / simple summary with Dr Peter Hotez from last year of what is going on..
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtSqSfv1_D0
            [TLDWatch:]
            – About 19 of 20 top selling books on amazombie are by the deluded anti-vax lunatics trying to exploit the situation.

            – Social media does not filter any of the nonsense or screen anything with the help and advice of scientists and healthcare professionals so that is amplifying the problem tenfold.
            -Why you dummies even use facederp, gurgle or crapple accounts, software, services or devices is beyond me, given the recent history of manipulation and corrupution? Will we ever learn?..

            – Over five hundred websites are promoting nonsense like bleaching kids anally to cleanse their immune system of metals etc. -I never thought I’d heard it all… but really?…

            – A lot of money is behind it and they are politically organised and very litigious. e.g. similar to scientiolgy in the way they go after people with legal threats.

            – Measels and even polio are making a comeback because of all this.

            – Also, even Robert Kennedy(of camelot fame/bs etc.) an atorney and not a helthcare/science professional btw. has a foundation that in no small part also promotes this insanity… to the bewilderment of many credible healthcare professinals.

            Just in case you or anyone else has any doubts about what I’m saying….

            Vaccines are incrediibly important and just because big pharma or bill gates are greedy and corrupt or even pure evil in many other ways does not mean they have played some important role in funding or progressing their development in a positive way at some stage.

            On the issue of wearing masks only…

            It would be of no surprise to me at all if, it literally makes little or no difference if you wear masks for covid19 and they were only causing various other problems. Even more problems than the ones you’ve mentioned before around autism and disability.

            Always the vunerable and unfortunate suffer the most under f-f/g / so-called right-wing policies. -It’s a political and science fact at this point.

            You’re always going to have a problem with radical ideas that go against the mainstream river of compliance and even with any credible independent sources that you have double checked and cross referenced thouroughly etc. are often difficult for people to comprehend or take the time to understand by themselves alone.

            No reason to stop doing the right thing though, in trying to give a voice to un-common sense.
            I appreciate you mean well and I can also see you are trying to do the right thing.

            Lastly, again and sincerely…

            You just need to wise-up to the reality and refocus your mind on the vaccine debate.

            Seriously, I think you are way off the mark but don’t feel bad about being wrong because historically, vaccines have literally always been a lightening rod for polarisation, politicisation, cognative bias and confusion. Even before you get into misinformation, delusion, corruption, propaganda or intentional manipulation etc etc. by the forces of making money.

            Vaccines, like people are never going to be perfect. Vaccines for children are essential until there is a better proven working system.
            – i.e. To start with, we all stop p-ing up the environment and the planet around us.

            :-J

  3. MacGafraidh

    Outside this whole kafuffle am I talking nonsense to everyone else? Is there no sense in wearing a mask irrespective of any data or am I missing something here..

    1. :-Joe

      I already regret getting involved in any kind of covid science mask debate…

      Yes, it’s probably best to just assume they work and comply like a good serf or pleb should do, particularly if you voted for F-f/g and have no clue.- I have a licence to kill, politically but I try poetically..

      Unfortunately, thanks to the complete chaos of misinformation and lousy communication and even if the science says otherwise you should expect problems if you don’t wear one in a public place, not least because many people are confusing it with some statement of belief or intent, acting against the will and benefit of the majority.

      As a result of a sudden threat by the state of a large fine, all kinds of fear based shaming is happening and the narrow-minded, one-track, one thought at a time eejits are having a field day with the panic…

      As raised above already.. The simple point being lost is that people should not be so quick to judge others for not wearing one, for all sorts of reasons… So just assume you don’t know or have experienced everything, for once. -You know who you are…

      Masks are only a tool at best so people should try to remain calm with an open mind…
      – Be kind to others and mind your own business used to be a good way to put it too..

      :-J

      1. Mary (Never) Wong

        very good points here

        But I suspect not wearing masks upsets more people like your mother than people who read on the internet that Sweden thinks they don’t need them, like soq
        I’d go with your ma every time in this one.

  4. Mary (Never) Wong

    It kills me to say this but the one thing I will agree with SOQ and f_lawless in is that the pandemic has exposed how truly fallible Medical health professionals are, that they are effectively an unaccountable elite, and that in years to come we will be looking back then at the way we used to manage medicine, the way we look now at how the state used to manage paedophilia and priests.
    Thanks again for your input guys and I don’t mind you posting contrarian views at all but I don’t know what sort of place it’s coming from ( and presume the same for other people too) and that informs a lot of sketchy reactions you get

    1. Junkface

      I don’t agree with this at all! I think Medical health professionals from all over the world have generally given good advice on how to stop the spread of the virus. Of course at the very start of the outbreak there was confusion and misinformation related to China and the WHO, but since late March or April there has been better consistency. All countries that imposed strict lockdowns and rules about masks flattened the curve a lot. Look at Italy, they were in a terrible mess, but now they have a low active cases number. Rules about masks are very strict there, its basic Science and common sense.

      Imagine the world right now if everyone refused to wear masks? We would be absolutely screwed and millions would be dead.

      Why isn’t everyone more concerned with trying to improve their odds by taking care of their health? If you are overweight or obese the odds of you DYING from covid-19 is 4 or 5 times higher! This is what is behind countries like USA and UK having terrible death numbers, they have obesity rates of 30 to 40% of population.

      Then there is the stats on Africans, South Asians and Minorities showing that they have a much higher risk of death. If any of these groups felt wearing masks does nothing to help, then they would die. That’s why I think its important to generally accept mask wearing unless you have a severe condition that exempts you, and that you can prove it when out in public, or at the shops.

      1. SOQ

        The problem is that there are many factors as to why some countries got hit worse than others and I really doubt if face masks make a blind bit of difference. f_lawless’s original point was about the physiological or mental harm and it is valid.

        Italy and in particular Lombardy had two noticeable features. It had a lot of traffic to and from China and it had a larger elderly population. But another factor, which is borne out by the data, is that countries which had two previous mild years of respiratory infections had a CoVid-19 spike- while others did not.

        Then some people argue that countries which have a culture of masks have lower rates but- they were also the countries which are infected by SARS-Cov-1 which is being now accepted as providing a certain level to immunity to SARS-Cov-2?

        As I said- there is a whole range is factors to be considered but mandatory masks at this point make no sense to me whatsoever.

        The only positive I can think of is that it gives people a certain level of reassurance but even that is not a positive if they ignore the basics- like hand washing and keeping a distance.

        1. Junkface

          @SOQ
          “The problem is that there are many factors as to why some countries got hit worse than others and I really doubt if face masks make a blind bit of difference.”

          Honestly, this is misinformation, I don’t know what else to say about a statement like that. It looks crazy. Of course there are many factors, but general public safety has to come first.

          During the AIDS crisis of the 80’s, would you have been against wearing a condom? Its that basic.

          1. Junkface

            I watched the video. Even as he says the introduction of masks made no difference on some countries, the graph on screen shows that it did make a difference. The biggest success on flattening the curve was a Strict lockdown. The curves have been bubbling up and down since masks were introduced because many countries have reopened business, opened borders and restarted limited travel, and also imported their summer farm workers. Taking all of this into account, and the fact that it is summer and people are going out and enjoying the weather and socialising more, masks and good hygiene have played a part in keeping those numbers generally low.

            Let’s not forget the younger groups having house parties in their thousands across Europe, bringing covid 19 home. The fact that this doctor does not even discuss those elements make me question his motivation here.

    2. Jack Of Ireland

      Doctors are the same as anyone else who did their degree a while and might do a bit of cpd. Be cynical, if it’s serious always get a second opinion. A GP has a list of symptoms in their head that they link to a list of diseases/conditions, a mixture of knowledge, guesswork and intuition.

      What about the muppets that wear a mask, but pull it down off their nose. Total morons.

      No problems in my family for the asthmatic and autistic wearing masks

      1. Junkface

        @Jack of Ireland
        I agree with always checking for a 2nd opinion on serious health concerns, that’s good advice.

        But mask wearing during a Pandemic is such basic sensible advice from doctors, its hard to go against. It would be like saying some car mechanics don’t agree that your car needs wheels to work, or that fire burns you.

  5. bisted

    …have to agree with Bodger on this one…the great mask debate is good craic and it seems to preoccupy the anti-vaxxers and distract them from the more harmful pronouncements they tend to make on here…

  6. Kingfisher

    The fact that you’re frightened of wearing a mask shouldn’t entitle you to endanger other people’s health. You can always get your shopping delivered. (Speaking as a lifelong asthmatic.)

Comments are closed.