61 thoughts on “Scales Fall

  1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

    How about Long Covid? Young people get that, even after a mild illness.

    I ask all those advocating let her rip to state which members of their family they are OK with sacrificing.

    Please, go to the nearest ICU and volunteer to do all the shifts that can’t be performed by the medical staff who are sick because they are fighting the virus.

    Please, when the hospitals are full of virus patients, tell the cancer and other patients why they can’t be treated.

    1. SOQ

      I assume you just have those comments pre-typed and do a copy and paste- how about you actually address the facts stated for a change?

      1. AC

        You haven’t addressed the comment. Young people are suffering long term health issues months after having covid, asthma, chronic fatigue, brain fog are lingering and not going away. How is the state going to cope with that?

        1. SOQ

          There is also long term influenza and pneumonia too- are you saying that the CoVid-19 figures are higher than either of those?

          1. Janet, dreams of big guns

            UK’s ONS has already announced that of this week that they will no longer have seperate covid and seasonal flu statistics but rather combined. I would imagine that the French equivalent(INSEE) will not be too far behind with this decision. This makes for ever more scare mongering headlines as we go into winter, giving the government(s) futher excuses to do whatever they want ?
            What is the logic behind merging these figures ?

          2. Cian

            I don’t know about the UK and France, but the HPSC (Health Protection Surveillance Centre) in Ireland is responsible for tracking notifiable diseases (i.e. a doctor *must* notify the HPSC if they treat a patient – even if it is a suspected case). Both Covid and the flu are notifiable.

            The difficulty is that the majority of (potential) flu patients don’t have samples sent to a lab for confirmation. So the HPSC track two things:
            – the number of laboratory tests performed + positives (this catches the type of flu) – there can be up to 600-positive tests per week at the height of the season.
            – the number of doctor reported ILI’s (Influenza-like illness) – this can be up to 5,000 per week at the height.

            Since Covid and flu have the same symptoms the ILI figures would be swamped by possibly Covid numbers – making them (a) unreliable, and (b) open to abuse by Covid-deniers (“it’s just the flu”).

            First week of the 2020/21 season is here:
            https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/influenza/seasonalinfluenza/surveillance/influenzasurveillancereports/20202021season/
            or you can look back at the last 20 year’s worth of weekly data.

          3. SOQ

            Yup the problem there Cian is that comparing flu and CoVid-19 rates is apples and oranges.

            One is only when symptomatic while the other is a near national screening program at this stage. To calculate how many ‘long term’ there are of each as a percentage is near impossible because the over all totals are guess work.

      2. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        @SOQ – Straight from my head. They are obvious talking points for commenters like you, who just talk about 0.0xx% death rate, as if that is all that matters. You can’t ignore the other reasons why there is this response to this virus. Why would most of the governments, be they left, centre, or right, choose to take similar action? Why, because there are limited options. Facing the reality of a nasty pandemic is tough. I know, I am in a city that has been mostly locked down since March – Melbourne. We had 6 new cases, today. I want to live virus-free, like the rest of Australia. Pretending it can be contained by “shielding the vulnerable” is baloney. About 25% of the population is vulnerable and they live with the other 75%.

        1. SOQ

          If you think the whole of Australia is ever going to be virus free then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. As soon as the country starts to open up it will be back- just like everywhere else.

          We all know the reasons why governments did what they did- mainly on the back of dodgy modelling- but six months later a lot more is known about the disease and that the collateral damage of lockdowns is just too great.

          Just a question- why are you, sitting in Australia apparently, so concerned about what happens here?

          1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

            @SOQ -” As soon as the country starts to open up it will be back- just like everywhere else. ”

            We put all international arrivals into 2 week quarantine. That is what has been happening since April. That will continue.

            We open up with other countries that are virus-free, e.g. NZ. We open up to other countries when there is a vaccine.

            The domestic economy will do OK, as long as the Chinese keep buying our coal and iron ore.

            Ireland’s best hope is to have an all-island approach that reduces international arrivals to a trickle. Hard to do when the rest of Europe is an hour or two away. It might be too difficult with the DUP and GB involved.

            Why? I am from Ireland. I am interested in what happens in my homeland. I like to contribute to the discussion where I can. If you had said to me that Oz would shut its international borders indefinitely, followed by many state borders, I would have said crazy, impossible but it has happened. Ireland might need to try some new things to beat the virus. Clearly, it is not in the same position as Oz or NZ. I hope things get better there.

          2. SOQ

            There is no way an Island of two jurisdictions is going to close its borders and besides- it is way to late here. It has already done a lap of honour around the entire Island so even track and trace is pointless- its just playing ‘whack the mole’.

            The core issue here is that once you go down the lockdown route it is very difficult to get out of it and the collateral damage is huge.

            Just a point on NZ and I am not sure if it applies to Aus, NZ has a very low incidence of yearly / seasonal respiratory viruses apparently- is Aus the same?

          1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

            5 million in Melbourne, another million in regional Victoria. We have been in a harsh lockdown since July – a long time. It had a curfew (now ended), has a 5km limit, 2hrs for outdoor exercise, work from home if you can, take away food and drink only. All gyms, cinemas, pubs closed.

            We had 700 a day back in August. The hope is to ease the lockdown on Sunday. The rest of OZ is pretty much virus-free – a few cases in NSW (Sydney). The rest of Australia have closed their borders to Melbourne/Victoria, so we need to get to zero for a few weeks, before the other states will open up to us.

            The country is divided like never before. I worry that we are becoming like Trump’s America. The PM is Trumpian. Our state premier, is Labor. The dominant Murdoch press and the rest of the media is attacking him, relentlessly, because he was/is popular. Parts of the media is stoking discontent and encouraging people to break the lockdown.

            When I left Ireland, there were border check points dividing the country. Now, Ireland doesn’t have that but Australia does.

    2. E'Matty

      What about Long Covid? The cost of these lockdowns to society are enormous. Are we now justifying killing our economy and the resulting damage to prevent Long Covid? A non-fatal after-effect of the virus? How about, everyone decides for themselves what risk they wish to accept. I am happy to go back to normal life and take whatever risks of Long Covid or anything that comes with it. I think there is a significant proportion of the population who feel the same. If you are terribly afraid of Long Covid, you should stay locked up as long as you wish.

      There is no evidence to support your claim that the hospitals will be overun by Covid patients if we go back to normal. Can you point to any country that has had their hospitals overrun in the past 6 months? Why are hospitals across the African continent not currently overrun with Covid patients and thousands of deaths? The virus peaked in April in most countries and has been flat ever since with a slight rise since we head into the winter months, as per usual with any virus.

      If in February we had been told that the country would be locked down and restricted for the next 8-9 months based on a virus with a circa 0.25% fatality rate mostly confined to the over 65s and above with serious underlying conditions, and with the outside chance of developing some symptoms for the following few months like shortness of breath and fatigue, we would think the government had gone completely nuts. After 9 months of media induced hysteria and fearmongering, people like you still persist with this irrational and hugely damaging delusion and are now seeking to send the country into further restrictions heading into the dark winter months. Get a bloody grip for God sake.

      1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        “Can you point to any country that has had their hospitals overrun in the past 6 months?”
        Texas – not a country but 25M people.
        https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/14/texas-hospitals-coronavirus/

        Please address the other points.

        You can also address the lack of herd immunity and the inabilty to shield the vulnerable. That was Sweden’s idea, it failed to protect them, hence the high death numbers.

        If you choose one aspect of the virus, it does not make sense to shutdown the country. If you consider all the aspects, then it makes more sense. In Ireland, there needs to be a better strategy to keep the virus under control. Can it be reduced by slowing/stopping incoming arrivals? That is probably too difficult but I don’t see much point in opening/closing in an endless cycle.

        1. E'Matty

          .”That was Sweden’s idea, it failed to protect them, hence the high death numbers.” eh, Swedens death numbers, when the age profile of their population is taken account of, is almost identical to Ireland.

          Covid Deaths: Sweden (5,892): Ireland (1,817) / Ratio 3.24:1
          % over 65 in population: Sweden (20% – 2.04 million): Ireland (13.32% – 652K) / Ratio 1.5: 1
          5892/2.04m: 0.28% – Sweden
          1817/652K: 0.27% – Ireland
          So, when one considers the actual population age profile and that the over 65s have borne the brunt of the deaths (93% over 65 in Ireland, with similar in Sweden), and compare the outcome for this age group in both populations, we find that it is almost identical, just 0.01% of a difference.

          There is no evidence to support a claim that opening society up will result in many more deaths.

          1. Cian

            Compare like-with-like?
            Okay compare Sweden to Finland or Norway and tell me why Sweden has 1200% and 950% higher death rates

          2. E'Matty

            @ Cian – can you explain why you consider comparing Sweden only with Norway or Finland is a valid requirement? Why can’t any developed country, including Ireland, be compared to Sweden? You also ignore my point that Sweden’s approach is derided by many in this country, and is regularly represented as being much worse than Ireland’s. I have simply highlighted the fact that if we take account of the age profile of the two countries, which is a valid comparison to make given age is the single strongest indicator of an adverse outcome for those who contract the virus, we see an almost identical outcome for fatalities in both countries. I have explained my like-for-like comparison. How do you explain your exclusive approach to which countries one is allowed to compare Sweden to? Can you perhaps explain what it is that those three have in common that Ireland doesn’t, that would influence their virus outcome more than the age profile of their population?

          3. f_lawless

            According to what the researchers in this paper (and other experts) are saying, the single biggest factor contributing to Sweden’s higher death rate in comparison to the other Nordic countries was the fact that the prior two flu seasons in Sweden were exceptionally mild which led to the lowest number of excess deaths seen in Sweden for several years. This meant that going into 2020, there was a much greater number of highly susceptible people among the population than there otherwise normally would have been. The same phenomenon of very low excess deaths prior to 2020 didn’t occur in the other Nordic countries. According to the researchers, this may account for up to 50% of the Swedish fatalities.

            https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3674138

            I’ve tried pointing this out before to Cian but don’t remember getting a response. Whenever Sweden gets mentioned, you get the same broken record type response “look at the other Nordics!”. Perhaps it’s some kind of psychological block because once you start to accept that Sweden’s non-lockdown approach wasn’t some kind of abomination contrary to the constant media spin, then the notion that our own government’s continued approach might have been disastrously wrong all along starts to become a lot more credible – which is of course unsettling to really take on board

    3. NotHysterical

      What are the figures for “Long Covid”? On a scale of Cardiovascular disease to Suicide to car accidents, is this something we need to shutdown the country for?

      I would like to see resources focused on areas of need, rather than needlessly take a kamikaze approach to the economy (which will bring it’s own health issues).

  2. frank

    Facts that are contrary to the narrative don’t matter.
    Also decisions of this magnitude aren’t made here. They are made outside the state and we get told what to do.
    To believe we could steer our own course is as fanciful as a fruit hat

  3. Cian

    Fact #1 isn’t true. The current life expectancy at birth is 81.5 years. So anyone born in 2020 should live until 2102. This “fact” has no bearing on someone born in the 1940s.
    Fact #2 relies on fact ‘1, so isn’t valid.
    Fact #3 is true, but irrelevant, if you
    [..]
    Fact #6: (about car crashes). The government has lots of law to reduce car accidents – you need a license to drive; mandatory seat belts; no drink driving, speed limits, driving standards… lots and lots and lots of rules to protect us and reduce deaths (sounds familiar). If we took their proposed Covid approact to driving then the death rate would rocket (the death-rate for road collisions in the 1970s was 4-5 times higher than today – even though there were way fewer cars)
    Fact #7: person with Covid in car crash = Covid death. Yes and no. It will be reported to HPSC as a reportable death, but the corroner’s office are unlikely to be include it (or it wlll be included but subsequently removed once investigated). If someone has covid then has a heart attack – the covid may be contributary – a death cert can have multiple causes of death.
    Fact #8 (graph) – they took this from worldometer? The official deaths maxed out at 77
    https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/ (you can untick confirmed cases to just see deaths)

  4. H

    Cherry picking facts, there are a lot of pick mix arguments and spurious correlations being used by the anti-maskers and their ilk but the facts remain thus (in the UK where I deal in statistics, also it’s a bigger sample size so likely to be more representative): Excess deaths are up and infection rates went down during lock down.
    My philosophy is that I’d rather wear a mask/socially distance/stay indoors and be wrong, than not do them and cause harm.
    I personally know two people who died, neither of them were 83

    1. SOQ

      I too know of two people who died, neither of them were 83.

      One who had her cancer treatment delayed by over 4 months and the other from suicide.

      1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        I know someone who died from cancer, too. I know many who suicided before this pandemic. I know none who have since it began – I am not drawing any conclusions based on that.

      2. bisted

        …I too know someone who died a few weeks ago…went into Daisy Hill hospital for treatment of his cancer diagnosis but contracted Covid-19 while there…his death cert shows he died from Covid-19…

      3. Masked

        If covid is let run free then there will be no capacity in the health service to deal with “normal” illness. We have to get back to low levels as in June and July and maintain them. That means limited economic and social activity but noboby will be going to work or out for a meal if they are sick… or dead. We just have to wait this out and have faith in the ability of medical science to find solutions. It will be a long haul. It will require more nuanced responses than blunt lockdowns. The idea that it’s let run because the numbers are low is just not on. The low numbers are due to and in not in spite of restrictions. So the add says “20 have died under 44″…thats 20 out of 43,000 which is 0.946%.Population is 4.9m so if you even half that rate (to allow for those who have/had SarsCov2 virus but have not been tested) it still comes out at about 1,100 deaths under 44 years. So who do we pick for this “honour”

    2. E'Matty

      “Excess deaths are up and infection rates went down during lock down.” Excess deaths were up in April but are not statistically different for the year. As with just about every country, it declien after April and has flatlined pretty much since then with a lsight rise as we go into the winter months, as with any virus. Deaths also dropped after April in Sweden without the same level of lockdown, how was this?

        1. E'Matty

          @ H. Ok, for what period? April or the year to date? Also, has the UK seen a similar statistical pattern to the one I describe above, for fatalities linked to Covid? Did it see a spike (like every country) during April, with a decline into May and flatlining since, with a rise again as we head into the autumn? It’s quite interesting to google the “Covid fatality rates in the UK by month” and go to images. Almost every one of them only shows to late April. It’s almost like they don’t want you to see the levels since…

  5. An older man

    Frank exploring your point. Any thinking on the debt being created. I am minded about destructive capitalism. America sneezes the world gets the bill. Any thinking on the 8T to be rolled over in 2021. Nice way to farm it out to the vassals. Are oz n nz already bust before covid?

    1. E'Matty

      Good question. Check out the World Economic Forum’s website for details of the Great Reset. It provides a well marketed presentation of the various changes we’re going to see in the coming years. The whole world’s economic order is being restructured (Indeed political and social order too). Lot’s of “Public-Private Partnership” messaging. This is the early stages of a radical transformation and reshaping of the global order. The trillions of debt you refer to will play a big role in moving the public to accept the new order.

      The Great Reset – The World Economic Forum
      https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/
      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/08/building-blocks-of-the-great-reset/
      “The World Economic Forum’s Great Reset initiative seeks new ideas in order to use this unique moment in history provided by the disruption to economics, politics and our everyday life to catalyze a new approach to how our societies are run.”

      Here’s an interesting article from 2016 discussing this in monetary terms and the unsustainable US debt mountain at the centre of it.
      What Is Left To Go Before The Great Reset? DEC 20, 2016
      https://goldsilver.com/blog/what-is-left-to-go-before-the-great-reset/

      1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        Bill Gates and Soros are funding this virus, so 24M is nothing. :)

        Your twitter link quotes Prof. McConkey “Not only does herd immunity not exist, individual immunity may not exist.”

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      The more you rant, the more your brain vibrates. It’s like the beanbag is now a massage chair.

  6. An older man

    Thank you for the name calling. Maybe I am I never did think about it. I have lived and seen quite a bit. All the things that I was told were white over the years tuning out to be black. This time of shrieking, those stamping their feet stating they are right. The madness of the crowd. With a cool head I would like to discuss points. TIernan T, captured it well with his “sneer”.

  7. John

    What I really want to know is how many people died from being hit by a bus.
    It was mentioned a couple of times in that ad but god dammit the people have a right to know. Stop hiding the TRUTH……

  8. Dr.Fart

    The only people who want to ignore the virus are captains of industry and mentally unwell folk. These same people won’t be seen or heard from when the hospitals are overwhelmed. Someone who chooses profit over human life shouldn’t be allowed a public opinion. Horrible people. I’m not surprised the Times accepted and printed this ad, the Editor is firmly in the developers camp. Not long ago he did an op-ed piece about how Dublin 8 should be steamrolled and turned into a financial district.

    1. SOQ

      The Irish Times is most definitely NOT in the community immunity camp- they have been pumping out the most biased scaremongering and pro vaccine propaganda of any Irish newspaper since this began.

      As for hospitals being overwhelmed- give me one date when either the Irish or UK hospitals were overwhelmed this year? Overwhelmed with nurses doing Tik Tok dances maybe.

      1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        I guess 620 UK medical staff dying is normal, just like the flu, etc.

        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-nhs-deaths-healthcare-workers-covid-care-doctors-nurses-a9665386.html

        “According to the Office for National Statistics a total of 625 health and social care workers’ deaths across England and Wales have been linked to coronavirus up to 20 July, with an almost equal split between the two sectors. In total 370 women have died, compared to 255 men.”

        I say slow the economy, rather than force medical workers to die. They did not sign up to be cannon fodder for the economy. All other steps that do not slow the economy, such as mask wearing, should be used.

      2. Masked

        You are right. They weren’t overrun.But they would have been. without the restrictions. The disease numbers are low because the restrictions kept them low.

    1. Janet, dreams of warm feet

      The years of our life are three score and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet most of them are labor and sorrow; for life is soon cut off and we fly away. ;)

  9. fluffybiscuits

    Its like the opposite of virtue singalling except its for twits (turning into a west brit is me)

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