118 thoughts on “Sunday’s Papers

  1. SOQ

    Something has occurred to me about CoVid-19- you cannot catch it. CoVid-19 is a disease caused by the virus known as SARS-CoV-2 but CoVid-19 is in itself- non transmissible. So what does CoVid-19 ‘disease’ actually mean? Well I assume you need to have symptoms so- if you are asymptomatic then how can you have CoVid-19? The PCR test is for SARS-CoV-2 not CoVid-19 after all- there is no test for CoVid-19.

    Anyways- potentially game changing news from Italy.

    Unexpected detection of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in the prepandemic period in Italy

    “This study shows an unexpected very early circulation of SARS-CoV-2 among asymptomatic individuals in Italy several months before the first patient was identified, and clarifies the onset and spread of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Finding SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in asymptomatic people before the COVID-19 outbreak in Italy may reshape the history of pandemic.”


    So where to now oh great lockdown and mask advocates? The SARS-Cov-2 virus was in circulation for months BEFORE people started to get sick.

    1. Cian

      Something has occurred to me about AIDS- you cannot catch it. AIDS is a disease caused by the virus known as HIV but AIDS is in itself- non transmissible. So what does AIDS ‘disease’ actually mean? Well I assume you need to have symptoms so- if you are asymptomatic then how can you have AIDS? The EIA test is for HIV not AIDS after all- there is no test for AIDS.

      Does thus help?

      1. SOQ

        Not at all- medically, HIV infections are NEVER referred to as AIDS.

        And, the majority of people who are HIV will without treatment develop AIDS while the exact opposite is true of SARS-CoV-2 and CoVid-19- *80% + clear it without a clue they were even infected- VERY different viruses.

        No comment on Italy I see- still think lockdowns and muzzles block a virus which was around at least 6 months before it was even spotted then?

        1. Johnny

          South Korea
          Population: 51 million
          COVID deaths: 492

          South Dakota
          Population: 0.88 million
          COVID deaths: 568

          Pop 29 million
          COVID deaths 19,917

          Pop 25 million
          COVID deaths 901

          Queensland (Australia)
          Population: 5.07 million
          COVID deaths: 6
          61 days since last community transmission

          South Carolina
          Population: 5.15 million
          COVID deaths: 4,110

          Eradication Strategy = normal life

        2. Cian

          True, but in the media and common usage AIDS and HIV are used interchangibly.

          COVID-19 Is used for both the virus and the “disease”.

      2. GiggidyGoo

        Cian – AIDS is a syndrome. A syndrome is not a disease I believe. In your rush, as usual, to castigate SOQ, you try the usual divert ploy. I think SOQ has just handed you your ass.

        1. Cian

          Two things.
          1. AIDS is a disease
          2. How is me responding to SOQ, about his comment, a diversion? I was showing a similar example where the names of a disease and virus are interchangeable?

          1. SOQ

            HIV and AIDS are NOT interchangeable. One is a progression from the other. You clearly don’t know anyone who is HIV+ or they would quickly point this out to you.

            Likewise SARS-Cov-2 and CoVid-19 are NOT interchangeable and there is no such thing as asymptomatic CoVid-19.

          2. GiggidyGoo

            Anti Immune Deficiency Syndrome !
            An syndrome is something that’s with a disease.
            It’s not the disease.
            You were just trying to be clever, imitating SOQ’s writing, and mentioned something that didn’t relate to his point. You tried to divert to a different subject.

          3. Cian

            I know they are two different things with two different names.

            My point is that in common usage the names are interchangeable. COVID, COVID-19, Coronavirus are all used by the media, social media, websites, shops, busses, about the only place outside academic literature you hear SARS-COVID-2 Is Ivor Cummins.

          4. GiggidyGoo

            So, you know that a syndrome and a disease are two different things. They’re not interchangeable – maybe by you – but not commonly.
            So if something has been invented for idiots, it had you in mind then obviously?

          5. SOQ

            @Cian- Sars-CoV-2 is the term used by epidemiologists when discussing the virus- CoVid-19 is the term used when discussing the disease. They never mix them up and never use the term ‘asymptomatic CoVid positive’ because they know it does not exists.

            Then again, unlike the media, and snake oil salesmen like O’Neill, they are not in the scaremongering business.

          6. GiggidyGoo

            Good man Cian.

            “I know they are two different things with two different names.” Interchangeable then?

          7. GiggidyGoo

            “Medical literature, even that from governmental organizations and institutions authorized to implement standards, is plagued with misleading assertions such as “a syndrome is a disease …”, “a syndrome indicates a particular disease…”

          8. Cian

            My point remains: in common usage the names are interchangeable. COVID, COVID-19, Coronavirus are all used by the media, social media, websites, shops, buses.

            It’s a bit like the word “flu”
            I got the flu vaccine.
            I caught the flu.
            I was tested for the flu.
            I had a bad flu.
            These are a mix of virus, disease, and anti-bodies- but we use the common word “flu” for each.

          9. GiggidyGoo

            Knock yourself out. What will be ‘common usage’ and acceptable next? Handing over confidential documents to friends? Sorry – it already is, in FFGr circles.

          10. GiggidyGoo

            Nope Cian. You’ve admitted, in your own words “I know they are two different things with two different names” yet you come the “common usage” ploy. By the way, wasn’t it yourself who diverted the conversation from Covid to HIV? Pot Kettle Black.

        2. Oro

          I wasn’t able to reply to your later comment directly but if you’re going to (attempt to) correct someone about a supposed terminology error you should at least name what you’re talking about correctly. It’s ‘acquired immunodeficiency syndrome’ not ‘anti immune deficiency syndrome’. I realize I’m breaking my ‘never discuss HIV/AIDS with straight people’ rule here but some things should not go without correction.

    2. Cian

      Re: Italian study. Can you explain what kind of test was done to isolate the COVID-19 in the samples and why you trust this test when you keep saying that testing for COVID is rife with errors?

      If it is accurate it supports the lockdown and masks- Italy didn’t have either this time last year and look what happened.

      1. SOQ

        This is from SEPTEMBER 2019 Cian- which is 14 months ago? Long before lockdowns and muzzles happened in Italy.

        1. SOQ

          Also it is an anti-body test, not a dodgy up to 45 amplification cycles PCR – and as some people never make antibodies, the percentage infected is likely to be much higher.

    3. Micko

      So, the virus was present in Europe 6 months before anyone knew about it.

      Surely that’s great news – probably means that way more people are immune that previously thought. Nearly 12% of the samples from September showing antibodies

      Nice one.

    4. alickdouglas

      OK, I’ve not got access to any more than the abstract of that article, so I cannot fully comment on their techniques. But 1) you cannot just say that the antibody test is good and PCR is ‘dodgy’ because it requires up to 45 cycles. Antibody tests tell you that there is something binding in your test subject’s serum, it very much depends on the specificity of the test they used. This is why tests are validated, ideally across labs in different countries. If you look at the Italians’ supplementary material, you can see that they used a self made antibody test. Not in itself necessarily a bad thing, but validation steps aren’t provided. Although they may have a specificity data in that paper, I cannot see it. 2) you cannot say that SARS-COV-2 was in circulation before people started to get sick. All we think we know is that it was circulating before it was recognised as a cause of illness. To return to HIV, let’s remember that HIV was only recognised as a pathogen in the early 80s, but that it was probably circulating and killing people in the human population in the early 20th century. 3) The impact factor of the journal the Italian paper is in is 1.7. This is low-tier stuff. This paper may hint at some interesting stuff, but typically (not always, typically) research with important implications is in heavier hitting journals. Like, Science for example, and available, in full https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6516/564.long
      This paper provides much more insight into what’s going on. Understanding the origin of disease outbreaks is a long term affair, it will take years of study to get on top of the origins and spread of the virus. I don’t like lockdowns, I believe they are a tool for people who don’t like to deal with the challenge of comlexity. There are a number of emerging ideas, based on proper large epidemiological studies that are helping us to clarify what activities are the highest risk for transmission. But even these require futher data and expansion before they are fit to provide definitive policy input.

      1. SOQ

        Tnx Alex- I know very little about anti-body tests apart from the fact that they usually return the amount counted, which is useful in determining how immune someone may be.

        I use the term ‘dodgy’ in relation to PCR not because of the test itself but how it is being used- and that they only return a positive or negative. My understanding is that both UK and Ireland may run up to 45 cycles without providing this information which according to people like Carl Heneghan- means some people are being told there are infectious when they are not. If memory serves me, he says anything over 30 should be discarded.

        Whether people were getting sick because of SARS-Cov-2 or not is a different issue. The point being that this, along with evidence emerging from sewage systems in various cities, indicates this has been around a lot longer than assumed and that public health policies should be taking such into account.

        I am afraid your linked paper is way over my head- does it reference any tests for SARS-Cov-2 from blood samples taken for other purposes prior to the respective outbreaks?

        1. alickdouglas

          yes you are right PCR is an often misapplied diagnosis tool, and you are correct that when used for clinical diagnosis (i.e. whether a sick person has symptoms due to a specific viral pathogen) it can give spurious results. Therefore for diagnosis it’s helpful to know the number of cycles.

          However, for what the Italian and Amercian studies were trying to do was determine whether virus was present. In that case, PCR is virtually (ahem) faultless in that it can amplify tiny amounts of genetic material without changing it, and hence it provides you a clear answer as to whether or not a virus might be present–but exactly as you state, give you a false impression of how much of the virus is present, which would typically be linked to disease (more virus tends to mean more disease). Antibody testing isn’t invalid in these circumstances, and I’m intrigued about the Italian paper, I’ll try to get it next time I have a login.

          Personally I’m not surprised the virus is potentially being found earlier, but the link to disease is important in this context. When many new pathogens emerge there is a phase where people fall ill and it is assumed something else is the actual problem. By far the best of the accounts of emerging infectious diseases is Spillover by David Qammen, it’s a bit of a tome, but extremely accessible, hugely recommended. I suspect you are familiar with And the Band Played On and How to Survive a Plague, which while mainly social accounts give some strong insight into HIV in the 1980s. But HIV is also a poor example because it has attracted so much research time and money. The vast majority of pathogens that have ’emerged’ in the 20th century haven’t been well studied at all, and the lack of focus of the current crop of researchers with hard ons for COVID research drives me nuts. Very few people are willing to put the time into shoe leather epidemiology, because it’s not glamorous and it’s time consuming.

          And you shouldn’t let yourself be intimidated by scientific papers. First, slice them up, and focus on the abstract, the introduction and the conclusions, usually you can skip over the methods and a fair chunk of the discussion. Often, in Science, Nature and (urk) The Lancet, there are accompanying commentaries or editorials. Nature in particular has a news service that’s free, gives summaries and interpretation and is of extremely high quality. Another service that you can subscribe to that often summarises and comments on infectious disease data is ProMED (google it).

          1. Micko

            Well, wasn’t that nice.

            An intelligent dialogue between two people. Not just a try at one-upmanship.

            Nice one SOQ sand Alick

            More of this!

    1. Cú Chulainn

      I see the orderlies have returned your phone Salmons.. great news.. care in the community in action..

  2. Charger Salmons

    Coveney on top form on Sky this morning talking about Brexit and fishing rights.
    He says because fish can swim from Ireland’s waters to UK waters, “no one owns the fish”.
    And he’s serious about it.
    To think this jester was once thought of as Taoiseach material.

    1. Joe F

      You’re very quiet old boy about Donald Trump lately and all his antics. If it was someone else you’d be spouting on here about it non stop, but once again you’ve displayed how biased you are, incapable of criticizing someone you support (just like your hero Bozo). Same for Kayleigh McEnany, the White House Press Secretary. You were singing her praises here recently. She was asked a pertinent question that she knew she couldn’t answer, and she said that was a matter for the White House – and she’s the White House Press Secretary!! Now she’s saying that Trump will “attend his own inauguration” You couldn’t make this stuff up!!
      I guess all those stories about Trump cheating at golf sound more believable now old boy? And he said a couple of days ago that we had turned a corner and had done a great job. It reminds me of the Charlie Haughey era and GUBU! Trump’s behaviour goes beyond bizarre a lot of times. But again you just ignore all that old boy!
      Marvelous indeed!

    2. GiggidyGoo

      Sunday and the Sure Have Inferiority Troubles meter has fired up. Just 4.6 on it mind you. But still ignited. ROFL

    3. Otis Blue

      “So as Brexit limps on, the unloved orphan of a failing populism, to some kind of resolution of at least what the end of the transition period will mean, we shouldn’t forget the lies shamelessly told, the promises blithely made, and the fears viciously propagated which have brought us to this shambolic point…”

      Chris Grey serves up some home truths for the Brexit Ultras.


      1. Charger Salmons

        Mate, he’s a Professor of ‘ Organisation Studies.’
        If I want to hear views on Brexit from someone who’s a good organiser I’ll ask an air traffic controller not another whiney academic I’ve never heard of specialising in a subject of no use to anyone who has never done a proper day’s work in his life.
        Brexit has happened.
        Get over it.

          1. Charger Salmons

            ‘ The page could not be found ‘
            Take issue ?
            ‘ Failing populism ‘ – so that’s what you call an 80 seat majority.

          2. Charger Salmons

            Ah, I see where you got this Herbert from.
            Chris Johns calls him ‘ the doyen of Brexit commentators ‘ . I’ve never heard of him.He’s an academic non-entity.
            But therein lies the reason why the Irish Times reporting on Brexit has been consistently and spectacularly wrong.
            Their hacks exist in an echo chamber.
            They only talk to academics, politicians and other hacks who share their views
            They’ve never set foot in a pub in a constituency in Northern England that went Tory for the first time in decades in the last election.
            You are making the same mistake by believing the nonsense they write.

          3. Charger Salmons

            Fail better ?
            You’re both using the same third-rate college lecturer as an ” expert ” …

            Heh x own goal.


          4. Charger Salmons

            I suppose the difference is England can’t win everything and Ireland can’t win anything.
            Except best supporters of Scotland in the world.

            Heh x game of two halves.

        1. Charger Salmons

          Not that you’ll see them at 5pm on Irish TV tonight.
          I’d like to say you’re only singing when you’re winning.
          But obvs, after seven games without a win, the nation’s broadcasters have decided to not even hum a tune.

          Heh x open goal,he shoots,he scores.

  3. GiggidyGoo

    Woulfe brazening it out big time.

    Perhaps a bigger story is Helen McEntee and Leo Varadkar pulling the wool over Mchilin’s eyes (or was it as part of the ‘deal’ for forming government). Not to forget of course the AG.

    This is Fine Gael’s notion of what Ireland should look like. The South of Italy has nothing on them.

    And now, here’s a repeat on FGs funniest Double Act. https://youtu.be/U73FbFEfAbU

    1. V aka Frilly Keane

      Ah would ya stop
      Fianna Fail
      Every last one of them there in that Cabinet + most Backbenchers
      Would have done exactly the same

      This is the second Government on the trot
      To parachute in an ex AG (on the trot too btw)
      Over other more experienced candidates
      Straight into the Higher Courts

      1. GiggidyGoo

        Aye, but this time it looks like they’ve been caught and there’s an opposition that may do something about it.

        1. Anti Bots

          I wonder who the shinners would appoint as AG. I wonder could a suitably qualified person even take the job?

          Go on Goo, who pays your wages – Ireland or the UK?

      2. Lilly

        Woulfe was appointed on foot of a recommendation from the Judicial Appointments Board. That hardly amounts to being ‘parachuted in’, does it. Presumably the members of that board, including Frank Clarke, were aware that a number of other judges had expressed an interest in the job.

        1. GiggidyGoo

          Yes, but whose job is it to advise the Taoiseach that there were other people interested? Was the JOB aware of the other candidates? Did they also recommend them?. It’s the decision-makers that’s at play here.

        1. Charger Salmons

          I say.
          Full up at 11.47am ?
          That’s a little early even for me.
          Perhaps that’s why you followed through …

    1. MME

      Not sure your in any position whatsoever to dole out the “bot” slur?! The boggled-eyed brass neck on ya! ;-p

      Still, interesting slip from you on Friday that you’re an old style Shinner. You seem to get quite triggered anytime anyone mentions the repeal of the 8th Amendment.

      So, an armalite in one hand and a crozier in the other, is it GiggidyGoo? Well.

      Tell me, what time are you heading out tonight to “keep the country running, while the rest of you morons sleep”?!

      Go on, amuse me…

  4. V aka Frilly Keane

    WTF does Shameless Woulfe know that has Fine Gael bricking it

    Wouldn’t be surprised if it was something around an appointment that wasn’t fully vetted

    Fine Gael and their Government Partners, Fianna Fail, all seem to think they’re above it
    It being accountability, and being subjected to the same Professional Standards as the likes of me

    How the hell a registered lobbiest and political representative
    In a former paid Political seat
    passed Public Jobs / State Boards vetting + all their bulls motions
    To not just be shortlisted
    But also appointed into SIPO

    Of all places
    It should beggar belief
    But it doesn’t

    It simply ensures them their own insider
    A Sleeper Agent
    In SIPO

    More evidence
    As if any were needed
    That there is a Regulatory Apartheid Regime firmly in place
    And it’s impenetrable from what I can see

    An Apartheid introduced by Leo Varadkar’s leadership of Fine Gael and nodded over by the then Confidence and Supply partners Fianna Fail
    Now their Government Partners in every way

    For every Blueshirt in a key appointment there is an eFFer in the wings – assistant / vice/ deputy/ acting etc
    And Vice Versa

    Try contradicting me C!anconannables et Al
    But be prepared for me to name and shame
    Who Brian Hayes’ no 2 is, and who else they knock around with
    And a former FG director of elections
    Who currently sits on four State boards + another that I am aware of
    And all pay the same phone bill every month + f’knows
    + His benchmarked

    Since I’m obliged to be vetted and held to a higher standard than anyone else in Government & the Oireachtas
    And their butties, enablers, minders and cosy appointmenteers

    I fancy my chances of having cleaner hands than the lot of yis

    The very nerve of SIPO questioning me over an 80 cent difference on a declaration (versus attached invoice)
    80 bucking cents

    Come and get me

    1. Lilly

      ‘subjected to the same Professional Standards as the likes of me…’

      Here’s a question for you, V. Had you attended that golf dinner in Clifden, would the Institute of Chartered Accountants have taken disciplinary action against you?

      1. Johnny

        ..most people just shrugged, in fairness,French Laundry if Thomas is cooking,is simply sublime.

        “A meal at the famed French Laundry restaurant in Yountville costs around $350 per person, not including wine. It typically features nine courses, not counting the “amuse-bouche,” which is a ritzy French term for appetizers.

        We certainly hope Gov. Gavin Newsom and his wife, Jennifer Siebel Newsom, enjoyed their dinner at the Michelin-starred restaurant on Nov. 6. Because it will end up costing a lot more than $700 in terms of damage to Newsom’s credibility in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Nothing will launder the stain of stupidity from his reputation after this ill-conceived outing.”

        Read more here: https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/editorials/article247181176.html#storylink=cpy

          1. johnny

            -little ny hole in wall sushi spot-no menu-22 courses-250 bucks-place used be jammers:)
            -beyond,doubt one of life’s great experiences/pleasures,

            -next time out west take the time and do that drive,its stunning,although the masters in augusa,ga is also quite special,the azaleas and smell of pine ,ok,ok…
            -the chef went broke/lost it all/place went under/he retreated here and just started cooking what he could grow/catch/find local….the rest as they say is history.


          2. Johnny

            Gavins x is dating Don Jr,he’s govnr Cali,going run for White House.

            -Regardless of the governor’s assertion that the meal abided by coronavirus restrictions, he faced an immediate backlash on social media over his decision to partake in an event at an opulent, multiple Michelin-starred restaurant as businesses around the state reel from the pandemic and Californians chafe under social limitations. Some drew a connection to the governor sending his four children to private school classrooms while most of the state’s public school students continue to do remote learning, as POLITICO reported last month.-


      2. GiggidyGoo

        Slight differences between someone who wrote the instructions, so therefore should have known them, and someone who may have attended without the benefit of such a deep knowledge?

          1. V aka Frilly Keane

            Tell ya what tho’

            If I went into a hotel dining room
            And sat a table that was all set
            And watching the people I was walking around a golf course all day with
            Take seats around me

            I’m pretty sure I’d know there was a dinner being thrown in with my green fees

            Although, I have to admit, that’s my favourite part of his whole tale – it still makes me chuckle

            He didn’t know there was a dinner involved
            Until after he’d ate it

      3. V aka Frilly Keane

        No Lilly

        But neither the Constitution nor any other part of our legislative and Democratic apparatus is in my hands to adjudicate on

        Nor, by the way, is there anything in all those tools, or in tax legislation or in the SSAP, and the troves of GAPs and SAPS that am I not subjected to myself, to the letter and cent, as any one else
        Or my Governing Bodies rules for fellow members

        I am not beyond the reach of any law or regulation
        Not do I expect to be

        Let Government Ministers, their SPADs and appointments and directorships that are in their gift to make, be subjected to the same Fitness & Probity regime I am. And be monitored annually – as I am.

        Then I’ll shut up about it

        Tell you one thing
        If I swore a false statement as Maria Bailey did
        I’d definitely have my Central Bank PCF status annulled
        And be subject to other disciplinary hoo haas
        My practice licence would definitely be in serious doubt
        As would by capacity to remain a Director

        As an aside
        If my boss and my colleagues object to my post
        Or so publicly cast doubt on my fitness to practice alongside them
        Make no mistake, I would be having a very serious talk with myself

        But I suppose
        That’s what separates me from the lads with the killer instinct, the lads that couldn’t give a ….

          1. v AKA Frilly Keane

            Like I said Above


            And I’m not the person that needs to get over meself
            Tell that to all the Fine Gaelers out there

            Get over yourselves there, and this presumption of entitlement that makes ye all think ye’re not accountable or answerable – unlike the rest of us, or what ye all demand from us
            + #CheatersCheatUsAll

            Just who do they all think they are

      4. scottser

        Ah come on. Woulfe helped write the lockdown rules and would have had a hand in suggesting punishments and sanctions while he was AG. For him to claim ignorance of them is risible. Your comparisons are stupid.

        1. Lilly

          I wasn’t commenting on Woulfe. I was asking V a question about behavioural standards in her profession.

          On balance, I don’t think Woulfe’s attendance at this dinner merits impeachment. Yes, he was a complete ejit but there was no treachery involved.

          1. V aka Frilly Keane

            I don’t want to fall out here

            But a Judge on the Supreme Court
            Has to be beyond all doubts
            And pass – over and above
            With room to spare
            Any level of Scrutiny

            No matter how they got there
            They just have to be Lilly

            And I’m not pontificating without good reason here
            I’ll tell you over pint sometime

            But I’ll say this
            If anyone has a doubt about the integrity, expertise and independence of a Judge
            Particularly in the Higher Courts
            All is lost

          2. jungleman

            I agree Lilly. This is a storm in a teacup. He shouldn’t have gone to the golf event/dinner but he certainly shouldn’t lose his livelihood over it. The world has moved on and the only reason it is still an issue is because the CJ decided to pour petrol on it. If I was Woulfe, I wouldn’t budge either. The politicians most likely will not impeach him and there is nothing more the judges can do. They should all just stop banging on about it and move on.

          3. Lilly

            Ah now V, this is not a falling out matter. One of my closest friends, a lawyer, would agree totally with you so I can see where you’re coming from. But, like Woulfe, something in me won’t capitulate. Not that my view will have any bearing on the outcome, mercifully.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      that’s sad – never would have guessed he was 88!

      Des OConnor trivia: He was good pals with the Irish footballer Peter Farrell – at the time, OConnor was playing professionally for Northampton Town. His father was from Ireland (Cobh, I think). Through Farrell, Des asked to be considered by FAI – and was called up for a game that ended up not happening for some reason. OConnor left football and that was that.

  5. johnny

    quite lovely sunday morn read,if this your thing,interesting change in priorities.

    ..how’s Dennis doing with that oul broadband:)

    “The city to countryside property journey is a well-trodden path, but since the housing market reopened after the first full lockdown it has been more crowded than ever. Over the last three months Savills registered 40 per cent more new buyers looking a rural home than the same period in 2007 – the last time the country market peaked.”


  6. Birdie

    Peter McCanns quote on the SBP is a serious case of stating the absolutely obvious. Surely they could of pulled a better quote?

    1. johnny

      -he’s completely,absolutely totally wrong,the last people getting on planes are high net worth individuals.
      -most likely he’s defaulted on his loan,its called ‘talking up the market’,is that rag,still owned by a hedge fund/vulture fund,who’d be trying BIG up expectations,to avoid writing down deals.

      Deep dive into US mkt,most irish deals/RE dev has been funded by us capital,its coming home,fast.

      Colony etc are looking realize their tax free profits,pulling what little liquidity there was for spec dev.

      “The disasters are retail and hotels,” said Manus Clancy, Trepp’s senior managing director.
      Borrowers have missed payments on nearly 20 percent of hotel loans, according to Trepp.”

      -Lending money to shopkeepers, landlords and hoteliers in places such as Times Square or SoHo used to be considered almost a sure thing. But that was before the contagion emptied New York City’s skyscrapers, hotels, apartment buildings and stores, leading the president of the United States to call it “a ghost town” and forcing some borrowers to stop making loan payments.-


      most likely some us fund has the re loan and the operating loan on the hotel-tick tock.

    2. Brother Barnabas

      I would have guessed the first post-covid travellers will be students / backpackers etc.- not overly worried even at worst of times and keen to take advantage of cheap flights, cheap accommodation etc

      1. Charger Salmons

        I’ve already got three long haul jollies organised for next year booked for half nothing when people were wetting themselves silly and airlines were desperate for money.
        He who dares wins Rodders.

        1. Charlie

          I do seriously hope none of those trips are to see Engerland play that form of average poo they think might actually win something at the Euros. Bwahaaaa..

      1. SOQ

        Nothing is ever guaranteed but pretty sure they can tell if Johnson is immune- they have the best doctors and labs to find out.

        Smacks of the media running away with a scare story again.

          1. ReproBertie

            Is there a Mueller report on Britain’s teaboy Taoiseach self isolating? You know, the report found that Russia had “violated U.S. criminal law” and “interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion”.

            Because otherwise it’s not like that at all.

          2. Pat Mustard

            How did Russia “violate US law” Bertie..?

            If you can’t tell me the mechanism by which they interfered you’re back to square one..

        1. Cian

          – perhaps he didn’t really get it the first time – the getting “sick” and hospitalization was done for media purposes?
          – perhaps it is a different strain, and he isn’t immune to it.
          – perhaps he knows that covid is much worse that the flu.

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