Discrimination Once Again

at | 178 Replies

President Michael D Higgins

This morning.

President Higgins has signed into law measures that will deny access to pubs and restaurants to the unvaxxed.

Earlier: A Scanner Darkly

RollingNews

Meanwhile…

Sponsored Link

178 thoughts on “Discrimination Once Again

    1. Bitnboxy

      Lol. The far-right nincompoops on Twitter desperately trying to peddle the #notmypresident hashtag do really need to read up a bit on the office of the president. The President of Ireland has NO prerogative to oppose a bill based on its intent. His duty is confined to consider whether it conflicts with the Constitution of Ireland. If he determines no conflict, he has no choice but to sign.

      But the “legal experts” on here will tell you otherwise.

      Sheesh.

      Reply
      1. Cui Bono?

        Haha the brainwashed really think we’re all far right.

        The President should not have signed it because it does break the constitution.

        Reply
        1. Bitnboxy

          @Cui Bono Lol. I see you are one of the “legal experts”. In any event, you are completely free to take a challenge yourself now.

          Reply
          1. Cui Bono?

            I shouldn’t have to.

            It’s blatantly obvious to any rational thinking person.

            The fact that you think this is funny is frightening.

    2. Slave to the Rhythm

      How dare you ATTACK our President? What gives YOU the right? etc
      (Hint: don’t bother answering. Thanks for the lolz though)

      Reply
  1. george

    The nine grounds for discrimination in Ireland are gender, marital status, family status, age; disability, sexual orientation, race, religion, and membership of the Traveller community.

    Reply
    1. Ronan

      Exactly. Nothing explicit to say you can’t keep 21st century lepers out of the pub.

      There are 2 potential arguments here:

      1. A person who could possibly do argue a case, is someone who won’t take the vaccine on religious grounds and claim discrimination by proxy of some sorts, but after a quick google I’m seeing that even Christian Scientists (usually healing by prayer) and Jehova’s witness teachings seem to allow for personal choice on vaccination, so it’s not like a blood transfusion.

      2. If you could argue that a pre-existing illness – one which makes vaccination ill-advised – amounted to a disability and that you were being discriminated against because you couldn’t (on all medical advice) take a vaccine.

      Either way, by the time and challenges to this are resolved, we’ll have hit targets anyway and this will be relaxed, more than likely.

      Reply
      1. Daisy Chainsaw

        People with genuine underlying conditions will take medical advice from a proper medical practitioner, not Dr Google’s antivaxx batplop scurry, or some Big Homeo woo peddler. If they produce a letter from their doctor stating this, I would hope they’d get inside for a pint or a meal, but it’s up to the establishment.

        It’s because of these people that the rest of us should be getting vaccinated and get that herd immunity everyone was touting last year as the way to stop the spread.

        Reply
        1. Micko

          Herd immunity will probably never be reached unless we make the vaccines mandatory.

          Including vaccinating young children

          Do you think that is a good idea Daisy? Mandatory vaccines

          Reply
          1. Micko

            Ok, well

            I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and that you’re only saying these things to try a) to wind me up or b) be a contrarian.

            I don’t believe anyone would REALLY think that children should be sacrificed or potentially harmed to save their own backside.

            Anyway beach calling! Toodles

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            Who will sacrifice/harm de children?

            Antivaxx loons would have protested against the polio sugar lump 50 years ago.

          3. General Public

            And they’d be right. The Salk vaccine killed hundreds of thousands, whilst developing sanitation killed the virus. That’s why polio is still alive and well in certain developing countries, even with vaccination way more accurate than 50 years ago.

      2. scottser

        it’s not an equality argument, to me it’s more relevant to look at it from a privacy and data perspective. Say you go to the pub and the staff ask to show your vaccine status. if they scan it then they have a record of it – what do they do with that record, who is the data controller and how long do they keep it?
        what happens if you only have a paper record such as a gp letter- do you just show it or will the venue be obliged to copy it? it seems most pubs and restaurants are extremely uncomfortable asking for this type of information as there does not seem to be a robust enough system of safeguards for them; they want to be compliant but the hames the government are making of this will leave them exposed to all sorts of liabilities.

        Reply
        1. Micko

          It will fall apart. It’s unworkable.

          I’d guess the contracts for developing all the infostructure around this will be going to mates of the government or to businesses the members of the Gov have shares with.

          It’s a box ticking exercise to extract more public money out of Ireland for them.

          Reply
        2. Ronan

          Who says they have to keep the data? Authentication via an app doesn’t necessitate the storing of data.

          The app could take the data from your QR code, and send a hashed copy to compare with a value in a database, which returns a valid/invalid signal.

          Point of Sale machines do this day in, day out. Some reproducible transformation of your card number plus your pin, plus the merchant ID, plus some other identifiers, goes across the ether – usually to a company once known as TSYS, but there others – and:
          1. Authenticates you (this card is valid and the user has a valid pin, and is coming from a known merchant)
          2. Authorises a payment (they keep up to date positions against a card number)

          They don’t need to store your pin, just the one way transformation of your pin + your card number.

          In fact, the card payments industry has a security standard set up precisely to protect card data, but which is more than adequate to meet your GDPR needs from this perspective.

          This should be no different than validating your leap card on a bus.

          Reply
          1. SOQ

            WRONG. All verifiable data must be stored centrally and a transaction record of where, when and whom MUST be kept.

            Serious information can be gathered not just about individuals, but also about the actual businesses themselves.

            You may be comfortable with the state keeping a record of every social movement you make, but there are plenty of us who are not. And that is the real reason for the introduction of this surveillance system.

          2. Cian

            @Ronan
            All the QR code does is verify that the details on the ID haven’t been altered. It is similar to a PGP signature – it just proved that the data hasn’t been altered.

            No central server is needed.

            @SOQ
            you are watching too many movies. None of this information needs to be verified centrally.

          3. SOQ

            @Cian Yes it absolutely must be verified centrally- otherwise how are they going to know which barcodes are valid and which not?

            I have rolled out enough bar code reading systems to know what I am talking about- you clearly do not.

        3. Cian

          @Scotter,
          Why complicate things?
          It would work exactly like the ID to prove you are over 18; You have to display it to get in, but the pub doesn’t keep a copy of your passport/driving licence.

          Separately, and for the last year, a pub is supposed to keep the name and contact details for one member of each party – for contact tracing if there is an outbreak. But this stays in the pub (and should be destroyed after 2 weeks – or whatever).

          No central database, no live tracking. nothing.

          Reply
          1. SOQ

            NO- it must be central because the barcodes will keep changing and new ones will be added. There is no way of checking barcodes without a central database.

            And those checks must be recorded because it is medical information being transmitted- Who, Where, and When.

            There is no other way of doing it. It is a central surveillance system- same thing as is used to clock people in to a work place- and it has huge privacy issues.

          2. Cian

            It exists today (I have my A4).
            It works.
            It isn’t centralised.
            It isn’t tracked.
            It isn’t surveillance.

          3. SOQ

            What you have today is a piece of paper which is not been read because there is no readers issued as yet?

            When there is, they will check your bar code against a central database- THAT IS THE WHOLE FIGGEN POINT?

          4. Cian

            The QR code contains the persons’ name, dob, and vaccination information, and who signed it (e.g. HSE).. This is digitally signed by the HSE with a private key.

            The app to read this will scan the document, look for the HSE’s public “digital signature key” and using the public key will check that the details on the QR code haven’t been altered. No personal information will leave the app. Each relevant public “digital signature key” needs to be downloaded once.

            A bouncer download the app to his phone.
            First customer arrives, checks cert, checks name matches photo ID .
            Scans QR code *beep* (app downloads the HSE public key and copies to phone)
            checks QR code isn’t fake. *beep*

            Second customer, checks cert, checks name matches photo ID .
            Scans QR code *beep* (app already has HSE key)
            checks QR code isn’t fake. *beep*

            rinse and repeat; no internet connection is needed.

            If someone arrives with a cert from a different vendor (say France) the app will need to connect to download the French issuers public key (once).

            [note: if may be possible the the app come preloaded with all the current public keys, so would only need to connect if a new issuer creates a QR code after the app is downloaded]

          5. GiggidyGoo

            @Cian.

            It isn’t centralised.
            It isn’t tracked.
            It isn’t surveillance.

            How do you know?

          6. Ronan

            Nice one Cian, so even simpler than I envisaged. It just needs to check the validity of a barcode. And the name read could be verified against a photo ID.

            And without having the encryption key, people can’t fake the barcode if it’s encrypted with same. Readers have decryption keys, encryption key is private in this context.

            @SOQ, I can’t ‘prove’ that they are not centrally tracking everything, other than to say that:
            1. I’ve worked on Enterprise systems for nearly 20 years
            2. I’ve worked with many public and private sector clients in that time
            3. There isn’t a chance in hell that the DoH managed to (on the QT) stand up an human movement and traceability application in the space of time they knew about this.
            4. This dark trace system would also need to plug into the European system.

            Anyway, I’ve done 5 mins of googling:
            https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_1883

            What Cian says checks out.

            Our public sector:
            1. Is incapable of the kind of surveillance you imagine – they can’t even manage a DR strategy for the health service FFS.
            2. Pretty much can’t do anything with partners without public procurement. We do not have the apparatus as a state to bury that kind of investment. Most is quite open.

            You can read the DPIA for the vaccine portal here:
            https://www.hse.ie/eng/gdpr/data-protection-covid-19/data-protection-impact-assessment.pdf
            That’s where the data is being stored centrally, in an IBM-managed Salesforce implementation. The certificates are being generated out of that – I don’t believe for a second that it’s been updated to have real time data exchange with phone apps etc, or to track where barcodes have been verified

          7. SOQ

            @ Cian You are assuming that the same readers used for airport checking will be used right across all premises? I very much doubt that.

            @ Ronan- Quite the opposite. A cloud based system is technically far easier because the heavy lifting is done centrally. It is also far more secure as certs cannot be forged.

            I would like to see the functional spec on this rather than just data protection because GDPR does not cover businesses. You say it is being stored in a Salesforce implementation- is that held by a third party? Salesforce would have no problem acting as a verification tool btw.

          8. Cian

            @SOQ
            I’m assuming nothing.

            The way it is designed there is no requirement for any personal data to be transferred.

            Anyone can write an app that scans the QR code and uses the digital signature to check the QR code is properly signed.

            The one thing the app needs is the public signature key of the agency that gave you the jab. This key is what Ronan says will be stored by Salesforce. There are a limited number of agencies that can issue certs, so there is no reason that they are not pre-loaded on the app. In that case the app can run in airplane mode.

            There is no heavy lifting. All the app needs to do is check that the QR code was signed by someone official. Nothing more.

          9. Cian

            So where does previous positive PCR tests or neg PCR or antigen fit into it?
            Same way.
            You’ll only ever need one of vaccinated, previous positive or neg current test. All of these are dated to you know when you were vaccinated/had a +ve test/-ve test.

            So you’ll only even need to carry a single document that has your name & DOB & covid status (one of those three things) and a QR code with the same details.

            The QR code can be scanned to check that it is not a forgery.

            The only difference is that if I get a negative test from a private company they produce the cert, and they need to supply their public key to the Salesforce database of public keys (that Ronan mentioned) so the QR code can be authenticated.

          10. Micko

            So no need to fake it. The photo ID is where it falls down.

            Just copy a mates and then get a fake ID to say that you’re him / her.

            Barely an inconvenience

          11. SOQ

            That is what I am thinking Micko- if the whole ‘cert’ is based on a black and white QR code then even a cropped photo will dupe a reader. Or if its in a wallet then a cropped screen grab is even better because there is no way a reader could tell the difference.

            But the reader still has to feed back because each issuing body has its own digital signature key and that needs to be checked. While that may not identify an individual, it certainly returns quite a bit of information about the actual business.

          12. Cian

            Yes, if you have someone else’s valid cert it you can use that – but you then need photo ID with your photo and their details to match their cert.

            QR codes have a level of redundancy so a slightly cropped code is still readable. If you are going down that route make sure you crop out one of the three corner dots – they must be visible or it can’t scan.

          13. Micko

            There’s tons of ways around this

            It’s a box ticking exercise. A waiter checking your Covid pass at a restaurant won’t care if you’ve a fake one or not.

            They just want to be able to say they followed the procedure. BOX TICKED! JOB DONE! NOT THEIR PROBLEM!

            It’s absolute rubbish and the fact that anyone here is getting excited that they’ve a piece of paper that lets them into a pub is completely sad.

            We’ll be there right eating right beside you.

            Nom nom ;)

          14. Cian

            @Micko
            you’re the minority. More than half the total population is fully vaccinated. And the demand is still there for the rest.

            And if you just look at adults (16+):

            Dose 1 of 2 Progress
            ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░ 72.2%

            Fully Vaccinated Progress
            ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░░░ 63.0%

          15. GiggidyGoo

            Oh nice one alright Cian. The data is centralized within the HSE, but you (of course) diverted, distracted, ducked and dived, to use the EU as your example.

            From your link……….

            “The certificates will only include the minimum amount of information that is necessary. This cannot be retained by visited countries. For verification purposes, only the validity and authenticity of the certificate is checked, by verifying who issued and signed it. During this process, no personal data is exchanged. All health data remains with the Member State that issued an EU Digital COVID Certificate.

            The EU Digital COVID Certificate system will not require the setting up and maintenance of a database of health certificates at EU level, and no personal data will be exchanged via the EU gateway.”

          16. Cian

            Oh nice one alright Cian. The data is centralized within the HSE, but you (of course) diverted, distracted, ducked and dived, to use the EU as your example.

            What are you talking about? I never said otherwise. Yes, the HSE have a full copy of all the information relating to the people that they have vaccinated. This is because they need that information to roll out the vaccines. The HSE created the vaccination information (they took my personal details and added the date and batch ID of the jab to create the vaccination digital record) . This is their data (and mine). They need to store this information (centrally) to roll out the vaccine.

            Yes, the HSE use this information to create the individual digital certificates they send to people.

            The HSE don’t (as far as I’m aware) have access to vaccination information of anyone that didn’t get vaccinated by the HSE.
            The HSE don’t (as far as I’m aware) have access to test information of anyone that didn’t get tested by the HSE.

            But this thread is about the digital certificates and what information is on it and how the information on the certificates can be used by restaurants and bars. In that context the “centralised data” is no longer relevant. The information on your cert is NOT sent to some centralised area. The government is NOT tracking where you are going.

          17. GiggidyGoo

            @Cian. You never said otherwise?

            I quote from your post above

            “It exists today (I have my A4).
            It works.
            It isn’t centralised.
            It isn’t tracked.
            It isn’t surveillance.”

            And you write then “In that context the “centralised data” is no longer relevant”

            Duck, dive, divert, distract. Centralized data.

          18. Cian

            The data isn’t centralised.

            HSE only holds HSE’s data; (granted this is the majority of data in Ireland).
            Tropical Medical Bureau (as an example) offer testing, and as part of that they will provide a certificate. HSE doesn’t hold that data. The data isn’t centralised.
            Lots of other companies in Ireland offer testing and certification – they all keep their data to themselves. The data isn’t centralised.

            Across the EU 1000s of organisations hold their respective vaccination and test data. The data is printed onto the individual’s certificate. You can verify the individual’s certificate (without sharing their information or consulting a central database).

            The data isn’t centralised.

            did I mention the data isn’t centralised?

    2. fFs

      Exactly. no discrimination here. We are fighting to contain a new and mutating virus and you’re on the ‘but where’s my right to go to the pub’ team.
      You have the right to go to the pub if you meet legal and safety standards – same as you have a right to drive if you pass legal and safety standards.
      You also have the right not to get the vaccine. No rights violations or no discrimination here.

      Reply
          1. Nigel

            If you like. Luckily the vaccine rollout continues and if herd immunity is acheived the immunocompromised will be safer too.

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      They’ve no Kristallnacht ratlicker rally to smash people’s heads in tonight so there’ll be a lot of pent up frustration.

      Reply
      1. Junkface

        Does everything have to end up with WW2 Nazi comparisons? It’s ridiculous. I don’t agree with anti-vaxxers but calling people on the other side all nazis is really silly. That’s what some ant-vaxxers do at these marches, compares any restrictions to nazi era behavior (again, really stupid). So now we have both sides of this divide calling each other nazis! It’s not only not helpful, its very disrespectful to actual victims of real nazis. No good can come from this mindset. People need to find common ground with each other and stop the ridiculous, over the top name calling. I don’t agree with lots of my friends on many things, but we still can get along.

        Reply
        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          I don’t want common ground with people who compare themselves to the millions of victims of concentration camps because they can’t get a pint indoors.

          Reply
          1. Cui Bono?

            The comparison is to do with the discrimination caused by lies and propaganda that began in early 1930s before the murder.

        2. Boomer

          It’s rather ironic the anti vaxxers making such nazi comments when there more than a few neo-nazis in their ranks.

          Reply
          1. Daisy Chainsaw

            I’ve said it before, antivaxxers aren’t the Jews in this situation, they’re the brownshirts.

          2. millie bobby brownie

            Okay so, anecdote time.

            I spent the evening yesterday with an aunt I haven’t seen in almost 18 months. I mentioned off-hand that I’d received the vaccine and had my cert. She told me that I needn’t have bothered, as quinine is a more than effective cure and that’s why she wouldn’t be getting it. There were also more than a few mentions of ‘Big Pharma’, covert surveillance, the failure of msm to cover ‘the real issues’ (sorry, what?) and a few other buzzwords we’ve all heard mentioned lately. Fair enough. Conversation moved on.

            Later, we were discussing my daughter’s recent diagnosis. When I described the kind of care she currently requires, my aunt proceeded to offer a number of alternative medicines as opposed to *the one* medication that will keep my daughter alive. My aunt quite earnestly asked me to consider it, told me very seriously that this alternative medicine would most likely cure my little lady’s (currently) incurable genetic illness.

            Why is it that so often these kinds of things go hand-in-hand? I know she meant well, but I am currently eating, sleeping and breathing for my daughter’s wellbeing, and it absolutely galls me that a well educated woman (a retired nurse, no less) could tell me that I should stop giving my daughter her medication in favour of some alternative muck that will probably do more harm than good.

          3. millie bobby brownie

            I should also add, she doesn’t see herself as an ‘anti-vaxxer’ but merely ‘sceptical’, and yet I find myself hard pressed to find another word for the woman who genuinely felt that vaccines ‘were a scourge, and this covid one was the worst of the bunch’.

          4. Daisy Chainsaw

            Isn’t MMS bleach the cure all these days?

            It’s frighening to think that if you were more susceptible to online quackery and conspiracy theories, your daughter might be in danger. I wish you both the absolute best in dealing with her condition.

          5. Bitnboxy

            @Millie Gosh, that is profoundly perturbing. Especially considering that in all other respects she is a decent and honorable woman. There are certainly many examples in history how easy it is to radicalise and corrupt ordinary and generally reasonable people.

          6. Slave to the Rhythm

            great story millie, I also wish you the very best in your daughter’s ongoing care

            I too have reached the point where I can no longer go anything less than scorched earth on these self-appointed quacko’s and cuckoos,

          7. millie bobby brownie

            Thanks all. Your comments are really appreciated.

            I’ll say only this, no day is the same and we need to tailor her care according to her needs on any given day, and that can be incredibly challenging.

            I was genuinely shocked that someone who has medical training sat and listened to me describe how challenging her care has been, how much it has blindsided myself and her dad, and how dependent she is – and will be – on her medication for the foreseeable future, and felt that the best response to this was alternative medicine. I do not exaggerate when I say that her medication keeps her alive. It is vital to her health, and there is no alternative. And it took all of my patience not to tell my aunt to shove her alternative medicine up her botty.

  2. Formerly known as @ireland.com

    Is this where the anti-vaxxers talk about the vulnerable hiding for the rest of their lives? No, let those who choose to put people at risk be the ones who have to hide.

    Reply
    1. one username per commenter please

      I’m vaccinated and I still “put people at risk” – because the vaccine does not prevent you from spreading the virus.

      The vaccine protects yourself, it does not protect others.

      Reply
      1. Cian

        It protects you and protests others. It just isn’t 100% effective (like every other vaccine isn’t 100% effective)

        It’s like a seatbelt; if you are in a car crash and wearing a seatbelt you might still be hurt or die – but it will offer some protection. You wearing a seatbelt will also protect the others in your car.

        if you are in a car crash and not wearing a seatbelt you will likely be hurt or die and possibly kill/hurt others in the car.

        Reply
        1. Cui Bono?

          You said the exact same thing last week, do you have a spreadsheet where you save you government responses and then just copy and paste them in here?

          Also, for the 2nd time, you’re wrong. These vaccines are to stop severe illness and death in the person who has taken it. They do not stop spread.

          If they work then the person who has taken it is protected. If they don’t work, then it doesn’t matter if no one has them.

          Reply
          1. SOQ

            Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from the virus that they were vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.

          2. Nigel

            Pretty much. That’s why this hyperindividuaism is incompatible with large scale public health measures.

          3. Cian

            @Cui Bono?
            you are wrong.

            I am vaccinated if I and am exposed to SARS-Covid-2 my immune system (primed by the vaccine) will kick in and:
            1. it won’t be enough, and I will get Covid, become contagious and start to shed Covid. [By having the vaccine the likelihood of hospitalisation or death is reduced]
            2. it will be enough, my body’s defences will kill off all the nasties. I won’t be contagious.

            #2 will happen 95% of the time and it means the vaccine protects me, and in protecting me protects others. (just the a seat belt)
            #1 will happen 5% of the time, and the vaccination helped me a little, but didn’t stop the spread.

    2. Cui Bono?

      You’re crazy. What is wrong with your brain?

      If the vaccines protect the person who takes it, then the vaccinated are not at risk from unvaccinated people.

      Do you think every unvaccinated person is spreading covid?

      Absolutely deranged thinking.

      Reply
  3. Micko

    Ah sure, our ancestors had to put up with worse discrimination than this.

    We’ll endure this too.

    Until it falls apart like everything else that’s inherently wrong.

    When it gets extended and extended indefinitely and having a covid pass becomes a requirement for every day life, people will eventually come around, even if they’re entranced by fear now.

    As a very wise man once said…

    “Tough time never last – only tough people last”

    bo demi demi :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1puR8jGK03A

    Reply
  4. Anvil

    I’m all in favour of it myself.It will encourage all those anti-vax morons to get jabbed and help out our beleaguered hospitality industry enormously.If you want normal life to resume then get vaccinated.And no,I’m not the slightest bit interested in your crackpot conspiracy theories.Indoor pints here I come.

    Reply
    1. Cui Bono?

      But most of us are not actually anti-vaxxers. You have been propagandised by the biggest propaganda campaign of all time to think this but it just isn’t true.

      You are the ignorant majority who simply parrot phrases you have been fed.

      Most of us do not need these vaccines because covid poses no risk to us. The clinical trials for these vaccines don’t even finish until 2023 too so we’re not willing to take something we don’t even need that is still on trial. There’s no medium or long term safety or efficacy data yet.

      They want everyone on the Digital ID system. The vaccines are just being used as the tool to try get everyone on this digital pass system. It’s not a conspiracy theory anymore.

      Reply
          1. Cui Bono?

            @Cian. “the “Digital ID system” is an A4 piece of paper.”

            They’re not going to make it that obvious or the masses might actually snap out of the trance.

            It will be on your phone in a few months and most will have it on their phones in weeks.

          2. GiggidyGoo

            Jeez Cian, you’re excelling yourself.

            Now, where did the information for the QR Code come from?
            Does a QR code contain digital information?
            By scanning the QR code on your A4 piece of paper you’re creating a digital record, of the digitized information in the QR code. Ore do you disagree?

          3. Cian

            Now, where did the information for the QR Code come from?
            For me? the HSE has a record of my vaccination.

            Does a QR code contain digital information?
            yes. it is a digitally signed copy of my name, dob, vaccination details, and vaccinator (HSE)

            By scanning the QR code on your A4 piece of paper you’re creating a digital record, of the digitized information in the QR code. Ore do you disagree?
            it depends on what you mean by “digital record”.
            It depends on the app – someone could write an app that automatically posts every QR code it scans onto broadsheet (or emails it to you, or saves it in a database somewhere) but….

            All an app needs to do is scans the QR code and checks that it’s signature is valid. And it can do that without creating a digit record.

            see this comment for more details…
            https://www.broadsheet.ie/2021/07/21/discrimination-once-again/#comment-2332964

          4. GiggidyGoo

            To be honest now Cian. You’re full of it.
            The QR code was created digitally from digital information about you. Nice try at evasion by distracting, diversion, ducking, diving.

            The QR code might ‘depend on an app’ for it to work. It’s still digital information.
            More distracting, diversion, ducking, diving.

            ‘it can do that without creating a digit record’ Where’s the ‘al’ at the end of digit?
            It can also create a digital record. It has to do so as if the gardai ask a restaurant for the details of who is dining, where is the information going to come from? A digital record of the patrons.
            More distracting, diversion, ducking, diving.

          5. Cian

            @GiggidyGoo
            You asked a series of questions that I answered directly and fully.

            and you say I’m “distracting, diversion, ducking, diving.”? what are you smoking? I literally answered your questions. If you don’t have the intelligence to understand – that is your problem.

          6. GiggidyGoo

            Yes Cian. You answered fully – you answered fully the questions you’d like me to have asked. You ducked, dived, diverted and distracted though when you didn’t address my questions.

          7. SOQ

            The two most important items of information are Name and Date of Birth- combined they are a unique identifier. The truth is this cert was never designed to (ab)used in such a manner, and was only meant to be read by airport officials.

            There is no reason why a business cannot record this information and it is still not clear if there will be a requirement to store such. Not only does that breach GDPR, it is also a serious security risk, and it is only a matter of time before such information is sold onwards for more nefarious purposes.

          8. Cian

            @SOQ
            Name and DOB are the same two pieces of information that bouncers have required for years to ensure people are old enough to drink. Has that been an issue up until now? There has never been a reason for a business to record these details, and there still is no reason for a business to record these details.

            There is a reason why a cannot record this information. It would breach GDPR. (However they are supposed to record time/date of entry and name and contact details for one person of each party, keep that safely for 28 days and then destroy it – to assist Contact Tracing).

          9. GiggidyGoo

            @Boxy.
            One of many traits.
            “Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line.”

      1. Anvil

        You wait until the cold and wet weather returns and we’re all inside chugging pints of porter and you’re passing by outside and you hear the sound of good cheer and bonhomie behind the closed door and then we’ll see how your tinfoil hat nonsense feels then.Vaccines save lives.Lots of them.

        Reply
  5. SOQ

    There is more spinning tops in here than a circus […]

    The same clowns who claim to be left wing of course, except- all the left wing parties voted against it?

    Reply
    1. Cui Bono?

      Yep, ignorant fools with zero foresight.

      They don’t even have a basic understanding of the very low risk covid poses to us.

      Reply
    2. Micko

      Ah at this stage SOQ, just ignore them and laugh at them. The green pass is a joke anyway. Anyone with a basic grasp of science can see why it’s completely useless, not to mention un unenforceable.

      The people here cheering this on and calling everything they disagree with “far-right” and “anti-vax” are the same type of people who called people communists during the McCarthy era and the same types of folks who were trying to burn witches a couple of hundred years before.

      Sure they have their code on a little piece of paper that they believe keeps them safe.

      Just like a religion – belief is all that’s required.

      Let them at it. This too will pass and they will be seen for what they are in time.

      Anyway – I’m off to the beach ;)

      Reply
      1. SOQ

        Yeah I know- its Juvenile goading but what rankles me is that some of these idiots claim to be left wing.

        Reply
        1. Cui Bono?

          The left wingers (who think) are all at the protests, coming together with a minority of right wingers, to stop the discrimination.

          Reply
          1. Nigel

            I’m not sure how anyone who can oppose collective actions for the public good in favour of a US right-wing levels of individualistic sovereignity can claim to be left wing, myself.

          2. SOQ

            Not if the vaccinated as as likely to infect others? Which they are.

            It’s called a Covid-19 vaccination not a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine for a reason?

          3. Cian

            @SOQ It’s called a Covid-19 vaccination not a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine for a reason?

            Yes, and we’ve been through this twice before. You are just being stupid at this stage.

            – The Rubella vaccine inoculates (most) people from getting the rubella disease, and becoming infectious, when they are exposed to the Rubella virus. [with 97% efficiency]
            – The Smallpox vaccine inoculates (most) people from getting the smallpox disease, and becoming infectious, when they are exposed to the Variola virus. [with 95% efficiency]
            – The Chickenpox vaccine inoculates (most) people from getting the chickenpox disease, and becoming infectious, when they are exposed to the Varicella zoster virus. [with 82-99% efficiency]
            – The Covid-19 vaccine inoculates (most) people from getting the Covid-19 disease, and becoming infectious, when they are exposed to the SARS-CoV-19 virus. [with 95% efficiency]

            Look at that – when the virus and disease have different names the vaccine is named after the disease, not the virus.

          4. SOQ

            You copying and pasting again eh Cian? And if I was being stupid you wouldn’t be spending so much time with your “fact checking”.

            – The Covid-19 vaccine inoculates (most) people from getting the Covid-19 disease, and becoming infectious, when they are exposed to the SARS-CoV-19 virus.[95% efficiency]

            Weasel words only a comms person come come up with. I said it did not inoculate against SARS-CoV-2, and nobody ever claimed it would.

          5. Cian


            Not if the vaccinated as as likely to infect others? Which they are.

            I gave efficiency values for Rubella, Smallpox , and Chickenpox. If you have these vaccinations and are unfortunate you can still get the disease and you can still infect others.


            It’s called a Covid-19 vaccination not a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine for a reason?

            Vaccines are named after the disease not the virus.

          6. Nigel

            ‘Not if the vaccinated as as likely to infect others? Which they are.’

            Which they’re not.

          7. SOQ

            The efficacy of these vaccines against CoVid-19 is now under serious question given the amount of people who are getting sick from Covid-19.

            At this stage. there is absolutely no way that they can measure the inoculation rate against SARS-CoV-2 but it is fairly obvious that is nowhere near other properly tested vaccines.

          8. Cian

            The efficacy of these vaccines against CoVid-19 is now under serious question given the amount of people who are getting sick from Covid-19.

            Not really – data looks good:

            “40% of UK hospitalisations are vaccinated” is good, in an image.
            The age distribution of who we’ve given vaccines to suggests that if they didn’t work, ~90% hospitalisations would be vaccinated.
            Actual figures imply that vaccines stopped ~92% of recipients ending up in hospital.

            see the picture here:
            https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1417819167458267136

          9. GiggidyGoo

            Jeez Cian.
            Your source is a twitter comment with a picture made up by the twitterer?

  6. Verbatim

    Most people write as if they have won something over the non-vaccinated, it’s beyond pathetic, a baying mob.
    You can drink and eat indoors and the price being two vaccines that most of you didn’t even need, and have no idea of the long term effects. Well, bully for you mate!

    Reply
    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      Didn’t need BCG either, or polio, tetanus, typhoid, diptheria, hepatitis either because I never caught any of them. Had a scorching case of autism after one, but it went away a day later.

      Reply
      1. Cui Bono?

        One big difference though with the ones you mention is they are a danger to all of us, whereas covid is not.

        There’s some great vaccines and there’s some very bad vaccines.

        We will find out how these new covid ones do in time.

        Reply
        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          If you antivaxx tinfoilers were around 50 years ago, TB and polio would still be rampant because of your delusional rantings!

          Reply
        2. Cian

          Polio is a danger to all of us by Covid isn’t?

          In 99.5% of polio cases the patient recovers fully.
          In 0.5% they get flaccid paralysis… but 70% recover.fully
          Of the 0.5% that get symptoms 2 to 5 percent of children and 15 to 30 percent of adults die – worst case scenario child death rate 0.03% adults 0.15%

          Already 0.5% of the population of Peru died of Covid. More people in Peru died of Covid than would have had symptoms from Polio.

          35 countries have had more then 0.15% of their population die from covid (greater death rate than Polio);
          and 113 have had more than 0.03% of their total population die.

          Reply
          1. Cui Bono?

            Peru are over-counting covid deaths.

            They also had one of the harshest lockdowns in the world.

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            Polio is only a bit of stiffness, isn’t it. A bit of zinc and primrose oil will keep those joints from getting paralysed! TRUFAX!! i SEEN IT ON DE EWECHOOB!1!!

          3. GiggidyGoo

            Citations for all of the above please. Funnily enough, when you do post links, they usually are ones than are easily discounted.

          1. SOQ

            So on record stating that children should receive these experimental injections yet you won’t answer a simple question on Pharma trust?

            Your a twister.

          2. Cian

            @SOQ
            in fairness to Daisy it is a silly question. It’s like me asking

            “do you trust straight people?”
            “do you trust farmers?”
            “do you trust taxi drivers?”
            “do you trust technology?”
            “do you trust shopkeepers?”

          3. GiggidyGoo

            Back at the bullying again I see Cian.
            I’m sure Daisy is capable on answering a simple question herself.
            Saved for reference.

  7. Anvil

    It’s worth remebering that it was only a year ago this week that clinical trials started on the early vaccines.
    That so many people around the world have now been vaxxed with so few side effects other than a stiff arm and 8 hours of flu symptons is remarkable.Give me the scientist over the social media ‘ experts ‘ every time.I know when my local re-opens next week there’ll be very few regulars shedding a tear for the unvaxxed then.

    Reply
      1. Anvil

        There is no outside.That’s why the pub is only re-opening next week for the first time in more than a year.

        Reply
    1. Cui Bono?

      There’s 1000s of scientists speaking out about the vaccines. They’re either wealthy and retired or are risking their careers by doing so.

      We have no long term data yet and there’s already millions of reported side effects and thousands of deaths too.

      There should be no coercion.

      Reply
  8. A Lovely Horst

    What a mire is being created here. A few short weeks ago Broadsheet was emailing SOQ about his disappearance.
    Now, Broadsheet, have a good look at this particular thread. Bithboxy and his merry band of alter egos, alongside Daisy pile on the personal insults and trolling without fear. Its no wonder Frilly left and Bertie only posts very irregularly.
    For gods sake, stop the rot. If the posts are just to troll and make personal remarks, then they really have no place here.
    Amending posts with words like boop boops does no favours except for these trolls.

    Reply
    1. Slave to the Rhythm

      hahaha Seán Bull’s Other Islandman…only appears at times like this, like the bean sí, ómohgrámochroí with the wailin’ and the weepin; “Father, why are all those men there weeping? Well, they are merely crying, son”.

      Reply
      1. A Lovely Horst

        What do you mean times like these? That must be troll speak that only trolls understand. It isnt top of the class stuff anyway.

        Reply
  9. wearnicehats

    From now on, many restaurants and pubs will be direct collaborators with medical vax discrimination.

    This is just completely unnecessary. It’s this kind of inflammatory rhetoric that will see a publican or a pub doorman getting hurt.

    The truth of the matter is this

    From now on, many restaurants and pubs will face the incredibly difficult decision of whether to open or not for indoor dining. Those who can manage to meet whatever the guidelines are (nobody knows) will be faced with the option of earning a crust and opening up a potential PR disaster or to stay shut out of principal. Those who cannot meet whatever the guidelines are will not be able to open anyway so they can afford to take the moral highground with impunity

    From now on many restaurants and pubs will be complying with regulation that they had no part in agreeing

    From now on many restaurants and pubs will be doing what they are permitted to do by law in the face of opposition from those who see that law as undemocratic

    Reply
    1. Anvil

      If anyone tried it on with the staff in my local they would be very quickly disabused of the notion by the regulars who have been patiently waiting since Spring of last year to meet up with mates and resume their old habits.The last time I saw a stranger get smart in there he was lucky to escape with just a few digs.One pensioner even managed to get a slap in with his walking stick as yer man was running for the door.And some man-bun reckons he might kick off about having to show his vax pass?I don’t think so somehow.

      Reply
      1. Slave to the Rhythm

        100% – and that’s why this will work in most cases…. of course you’ll always have the howareyas who will fancy taking on the Kung Fu waiters, or Jackie Actual F_ing Chan, who graced these pages a few weeks back

        Reply
    2. Slave to the Rhythm

      Total waffle, pubs have always had absolute and total discretion as to who they serve, and why/why not, save for certain ethic groups and minorities of course, this new legislation is merely extending those powers to other categories of people, it’s not discrimination if it’s allowed in law, and it’s to protect us all, most of your type complaining about this probably wouldn’t have been served in any decent pub, in any case…even in the previous legislative framework, go on,

      Reply
      1. Cui Bono?

        “it’s not discrimination if it’s allowed in law” – this is nonsense, it can still be discrimination even if it’s allowed for in law.

        “and it’s to protect us all” – more nonsense, who’s it protecting? are the vaccinated not meant to be protected by the vaccine? do the vaccines not work? if they don’t work then it doesn’t matter if no one has them.

        You clearly haven’t even thought through any of this. It’s time to start thinking.

        Reply
        1. Slave to the Rhythm

          Discrimination is a legally defined term, as you would have learned had you bothered even glancing at the first comment or two on the thread. https://www.broadsheet.ie/contact/

          I was right about you not getting served anywhere decent though, wasn’t I? I noticed you didn’t argue with that bit…

          Reply
          1. Slave to the Rhythm

            GP/Lovely Horst – corner man to ALL the resident BS aging heavyweights making yet another unlikely comeback…

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Sponsored Link
Broadsheet.ie