Teen Spirit [Updated]




The Covid-19 vaccination programme is to be extended, with all those aged 12 to 15 to be offered a vaccine.

A recommendation that all children in this age category be included has been made to the Government by the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC).


This morning.

The Covid-19 vaccination programme is poised to include 12 to 15 year-olds.

Via RTE:

A recommendation that all children in this age category be included has been made to the Government by the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC).

It is expected to be approved by the Cabinet today.

Speaking on his way into the Cabinet meeting, Taoiseach Micheál Martin said there would be further advice from NIAC regarding vaccinations for 12 to 15 year-olds, which he said represents a “significant opening up” of the vaccination programme to younger age cohorts.

Mr Martin said it has been a very effective programme so far and the Government wants to encourage “heightened participation” among the remaining age groups.

Govt set to approve Covid vaccines for 12-15 year-olds (RTÉ)



How dare you.

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117 thoughts on “Teen Spirit [Updated]

          1. Des

            Mmmm. Not really. Cian always ‘just asks a question’. Then when the debate has sufficiently heated up he realises that he is unsure of his position and slopes off. Rarely hangs about and rarely happy to accept that he is sometimes wrong.

          2. Cian

            PointofOrder is saying that vaccinating a child against Covid is “child abuse”.
            I think that deserves a bit more detail.

      1. PointofOrder

        Because we simply do not know the long term effects of what is being administered at the moment. Nobody does. Because enough actual time hasn’t elapsed to know. And because children are not at serious risk of Covid. Children would be getting the vaccine for social reasons (eg to eat in a restaurant) as opposed to for health reason…and that is insane.

        1. Ben Madigan

          “More evidence is needed on the use of the different COVID-19 vaccines in children to be able to make general recommendations on vaccinating children against COVID-19.”
          WHO 14.07.2021

        2. Nigel

          Children would be getting vaccines to prevent them from catching and spreading covid through their families, schools and communities, which is a social reason AND a health reason.

          1. Nigel

            Except there is no established risk with the vaccine, and your framing it as adults versus kids is skeevy. When it comes down to it, it will be parenst/guardians weighing risks and making their choice in what they hope will be the best interests of the child. We’ve had one commenter saying this is tantamount to child abuse, and others like yourself suggesting that people are selfishly putting children in harms way. What it boils down to is that your opinions are as marginal as they are infantile and you are becoming increasingly reactionary in your efforts to assert some validity or moral worth in your positions.

          2. Nigel

            A planet where that link does not go to established risks linked to the vaccine, but to unconfirmed, uncorroborated self-reporting of allegedly correlated incidents, during a pandemic notable for online misinformation and disinformation.

          3. E'Matty

            Vaccinated Children could still contract and transmit the virus through their families, schools and communities so thst argument doesn’t really hold up. But, you clearly are prepared to use children as human shields for the elderly, risk a child’s health to supposedly protect an already vaccinated 85 year old with cancer or Parkinson’s who’s already lived a full life. Crazy stuff.

          1. Cian

            more rubbish from Micko.

            Pfizer have applied for full FDA approval, and that application has been accepted.

          2. Micko

            Oh. They’ve “applied” have they?

            After only 7 months of injecting people. Right so.

            Well that’s fine then…

            Sorry everyone.

            Nothing to see here so.

          3. GiggidyGoo

            More rubbish divert/distract/duck/dive from Cian.

            Applications for anything can be accepted. That doesn’t say a final decision has been taken.

            e.g A student could apply for a grant. The application can be accepted. The decision to give the grant can be be positive or negative.

            Will you ever stop with your attempts to muddy everything Cian?

          4. Cian

            July 27, 2021 at 2:14 pm

            How would we know what the long term effects are since not enough time has passed?

            That’s why the vaccines have NOT been given full FDA approval – no long term data available.

            But Pfiser have made and the FDA have accepted the application. Ergo there is enough “long-term data” available to make an application. Therefore Micko is wrong.

          5. Man On Fire

            Hold your horse’s there tonto, the Pfizer application is under review Cian.

            It hasn’t been fully accepted.

          6. Cian

            Ì know it hasn’t been fully approved.

            Do you really think Pfiser would make an application to the FDA unless they knew that they had sufficient details in their application? They already have the emergency approval and are selling the product. They don’t need to get the full approval.

            They gave enough information on “long term” effects to make the application for full approval.

            Pfizer applied to FDA for full approval in early May, and Moderna on 1 June.

          7. Man On Fire

            @ Cian

            You said Micko was wrong..

            “More rubbish from Micko..”

            The fact is you are wrong. Now show some humility and admit when you are wrong.

          8. GiggidyGoo

            Micko wrote ‘That’s why the vaccines have NOT been given full FDA approval – no long term data available.’

            That’s a long way from an application being accepted

            If you apply for planning permission, for instance, the application will always be accepted. It’s the decision that follows that is either positive or negative. So having an application (say for palnning permission) accepted, doesn’t give you the actual permission.

            The 4 x D’s Cian

          9. Cian


            Looks like you’ve never applied for permission. First thing they check to see if you application is valid – i.e. did you include all the documents you are supposed to and fees. If everything is there, then and only then do they accept the application and then start looking at the individual parts.

            Again, using your planning permission example – you don’t apply for planning permission if you only have half your drawings completed [becasue it will fail]. The act of submitting the application is an indicator that the documents submitted are complete.

            Two manufacturers have submitted all the documentation to the FDA seeking approval.
            Two manufacturers have included (what they believe is) sufficient long-term data in their application to the FDA.

            And, for the sake of clarity: “Ì know it hasn’t been fully approved.”

          10. Oro

            You introduced the planning permission example, not Cian’s fault it collapsed around you with the slightest scrutiny. I suppose you’ll accuse me of bullying you now lol.

          11. GiggidyGoo

            Nothing collapsed around me Oro. Did you read Cian’s last, erm, admission? “I know it hasn’t been fully approved”

            The translation of that is – It hasn’t been approved. That’s what is termed an argument ‘collapsing’.

            Why would I accuse you of bullying? This is the first time you’ve corresponded with me. (As Oro anyway.)

          12. Oro

            Your point was that they didn’t have certain research done. Cian’s was that certain applications can only be applied for once the correct documentation has been included with the application (a two part analysis) a la planning permission (implying that the correct research has been done by virtue that the information has been accepted for review). And you brought up planning permission to disprove this (where as Cian correctly pointed out operates on that same basis), and then complained when it didn’t work out for you. It absolutely collapsed around you. It’s very clear.

            The bullying part was a reference to a line you take against him, again I thought that was fairly clear as a joke, and yes first time we’ve ever interacted.

          13. Cian


            I never said the application had been approved. My argument didn’t mention approval or rely on approval.

            So how can me acknowledging (more than once) that it hasn’t been approved be “an argument ‘collapsing’.”.

          14. GiggidyGoo

            You’re yet again trying to get away with spinning. You hopped on Micko and made a statement that you wanted to seem to sound like approval had been granted. Now you’re trying to weasel out.

  1. frank

    Let me flesh that out…
    12 – 15 year olds – July
    5 – 12 year olds – August
    Teachers won’t return to work.
    No school in September.

  2. Clampers Outside

    As long as there is a waver, there is uncertainty. So “no” Micheal, you do not need to discuss anything regarding untested vaccines being administered to children. The answer is a straight up ‘no’.

    And what do you mean by remaining age “groups”? Are you already planni g on using these under 12s as well, wtf, again “no”.

    1. Cian

      Mr Martin said it has been a very effective programme so far and the Government wants to encourage “heightened participation” among the remaining age groups.
      The whole quote would suggest that he is suggesting that there have been high-uptakes in the older age-groups he wants to encourage the younger age groups (i.e. under 50s) to continue to participate.

      At the moment (at least one dose)::
      99% in the over 60s
      96% in the 50-59
      But the younger groups are still being actively rolled out:
      78% in the 25-49
      47% in the 18-24
      ? in the 16-17

    2. Micko

      The UK only vaccinate under 18’s who are at risk with other issues.

      And their case numbers are dropping like Billy-o. Down 50% in the last week.

      Why are the Irish government rushing to now inject children with non fully approved medicines?

      1. Cian

        The following is a list of some countries that have approved or are considering vaccinating children:

        * France has started vaccinating those from 12 years upwards, provided they have parental consent.
        * Germany’s vaccine advisory committee recommended on June 10 that only children and adolescents with pre-existing conditions should be given Pfizer’s vaccine.
        * Austria aims to have over 340,000 children aged 12-15 vaccinated by the end of August,
        * Estonia could start vaccinating teenagers by the autumn,
        * Hungary started vaccinating 16 to 18-year-olds in mid-May,
        * Italy on May 31 approved extending the use of Pfizer’s vaccine to 12-15 year olds.
        * Lithuania’s prime minister said the country could start vaccinating children from age 12 in June
        * Spain plans to start vaccinating children between 12 and 17 years old

        EUROPE (NON-EU)
        * British ministers will be advised against mass vaccinations of children below 18.(the country’s regulator has already approved Pfizer’s shot for 12- to 15-year olds).
        * Switzerland approved on June 4 vaccinating 12 to 15-year-olds with Pfizer’s shot,
        * Brazil on June 11 approved use of Pfizer’s vaccine for children over 12.
        * Chile has approved use of Pfizer’s vaccine for 12 to 16-year-olds.
        * U.S. states began inoculating young adolescents in mid-May.
        * Canada in early May approved use of Pfizer’s vaccine for use in children aged 12-15.


          1. Micko

            An adverse reaction to the vaccine.

            Not to mention possible long term complications from our lack of long term data.

          2. Just Sayin

            If a child has a severe adverse reaction or dies, then they or their parents can sue the government (the pharma companies have been given indemnity)

            Last time the government indemnified the pharma companies for a vaccine for emergency use was for swine flu back in 2009.

            Currently there are about 80 children suing the Irish Government.
            The first two cases have been settled


            Our government were told about the narcolepsy issue, but proceeded with the rollout anyway




          3. Nigel

            What aspect of the vaccine do you expect to cause adverse reactions or long term complications?

            JS – what specific warnings are being made abut this vaccine?

          4. Micko

            Israel sees probable link between Pfizer vaccine and myocarditis cases – Nigel


            “According to the findings, such a link was observed more among men aged 16 to 19 than in other age groups.”

            Also, there’s the 6000+ dead people in the US, but that’s a bit of a dead “from or with the vaccine” situation.

            Sound familiar..?

            Anyway, bottom line is the UK is doing great reducing their case numbers without having to inject children.

            Since not enough time has passed to know the long term effects, we should keep this away from healthy kids.

          5. Nigel

            ‘small number’ sounds small. ‘probable link’ sounds inconclusive. 95% of the cases ‘mild’ sounds like not too big a worry. ‘incidents were similar rate to those in the general population’ makes it sound like something worth keeping an eye on, but not get excited about.
            6000+ dead sounds made up.
            UK cases have only just started to drop after a steep rise, not so sure you could call their management exemplary just yet.

          6. Micko

            “6000+ dead sounds made up.” Oh really Nigel?

            From the CDC

            From that CDC page:
            “During this time, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. ”

            0.0018% eh?

            What a coincidence – that’s the exact number of people under the age of 45 who’ve died in Ireland WITH or FROM Covid. What are the odds eh?

          7. Grimey

            If a child dies on the way to school should all children be pulled out of school forever?

          8. SOQ

            So what is a acceptable level of deaths and injuries Grimey? One, ten, a hundred, a thousand?

            Normal vaccine development takes 5 to 7 years and most of that is watching for side effects. Deaths and injuries from these vaccines are already way above anything else and there is absolutely no way of knowing the longer term effects at this point.

          9. Nigel

            Has a single one of those reported deaths been directly linked to the vaccine, or are you just marvelling at unconnected synchronicities while expecting to be taken seriously?

          10. Nigel

            ‘Normal vaccine development takes 5 to 7 years’

            But as you well know this was not a normal vaccine in terms of time, money and resources devoted to its development, not to mention the sheer number of scientists. If you’re trying to make a case that throws some doubt on the vaccine in those terms without acknowledging this fact, then I assume you’re being lazy or dishonest.

          11. Clampers Outside

            One a knowledge those facts and still acknowledge there is an indemnity and no one knows the long view… Hence the indemnity.
            But hey, you’ve record on here for endorsing experimental procedures on kids. So no surprise you’re gung-ho for this too.

          12. Nigel

            The indemnity isn’t a medical fact pertaining to the vaccine, but a legal/financial concession to companies embarking on a massive global project, and you’re on the record as supporting high-handed interference in people’s medical treatment based on manufactured moral outrage rather than best medical practice.

          13. Clampers Outside

            It’s not manufactured, it is a legal ruling that the drugs and procedures are experimental in the UK. And Sweden and Finland have followed suit. And more recently Australia with one its major clinics reviewing the use of experimental drugs and advising a similar route to the UK. On top of that, all the dodgy and playing loose with patient care that has been going is rocked by Denmark calling for a review of the studies upon which nearly all Western countries have been basing their procedures. The change for better care is gaining massive momentum and advocates for child experimentation like yourself are being shown to be the mindless, careless and callous activists that you are.

            It’s a good time for improved patient care! :)

          14. Clampers Outside

            It’s not a concession, it’s protection against the potential for damaging individual persons and their likely legal action if such damage occurs. That’s the major part of it.

            Just Google Pfizers’ bullying of countries around the globe, Latin America in particular. They are making sure they will not be sued, not looking for “consessions”.

          15. Bitnboxy

            Oh Jaysus- Clampers aka Itchy McScratchy and his “I know best for your child” shtick. Wind your neck in Clampers

          16. Micko

            “I know best for your child” shtick

            Not speaking for Clampers, but I’d say he’s just looking out for his own kid(s)

            Like most people here…

            No one here can control what others choose to give their kids

  3. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

    I find this terrifying, I’m sorry, whatever about adults couldn’t we just wait a few years to see how it plays out in the adult population before we start giving it to kids ?

    1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

      my 16 year old niece was vacinated for covid early on by the way as she is high risk and it made sense before I get called a ratlicker, but for less at risk children I don’t understand why we can’t wait until this is less experimental.

      1. MR.Bezos

        ratlicker, how dare you put everyone else at risk by not vaccinating your children!

        It doesnt matter that the vaccine doesnt prevent spread of covid
        It doesnt matter that the vaccines long term effects are not known
        It doesnt matter that herd immunity cannot be achieved for a highly infectious RNA virus


          1. f_lawless

            “It does”
            This is misinformation


            About 7 weeks into deployment,more than 100 cases of coronavirus reported aboard a Royal Navy fleet as part of routine testing. All crew members had been double jabbed prior to leaving. The outbreak occurred despite the use of masks, social distancing and a track and trace system.

            Initial vaccine trials were never designed to test if the vaccines would prevent transmission and this is about as clear empirical evidence as we’re going to get that it’s still possible for a person to transmit the virus after being jabbed.

          2. Nigel

            “Our crew are double vaccinated so you’ll be glad to know there is no serious effects on any of the crew and we will manage it,”

            Even if it didn’t prevent spread in this instance – a fairly closed and close-quarter environment, in farness – something that has been repeatedly warned about, it sounds like the vaccine worked, actually.

          3. Cian

            The virus has spread through [more than 100 of] the strike group’s 3,700 strength crew despite them being fully vaccinated.

            the sailors became infected when they went ashore during a stopover at Limassol in Cyprus.

            All the sailors could have got infected in Cyprus.

          4. f_lawless

            the question at hand is whether the vaccines prevent transmission. That the crew members had mild symptoms isn’t proof of the vaccines’ efficacy. In the young, fit and healthy that would be the expected outcome without vaccines. Severe Covid symtoms in that demographic is extremely rare.

            That’s true, it can’t be ruled out theoretically, but considering that there’s been various other emerging news stories of double jabbed people transmitting the virus it becomes an even less likely scenario

            To give an example:

            A recent Israeli news report citing research based on Israeli Health Ministry data which indicated that 80% of vaccinated Covid carriers didn’t infect anyone in public spaces, but 10% vaccinated Covid carriers spread to one otherr person and 3% vaccinated spread to two or three others.

            That 80% figure doesn’t mean much either when held up next to the research done at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center prior to vaccine roll outs, which indicated that 80% of those infected likely don’t spread Covid.


            I think that claiming the vaccines prevent transmission is just wishful thinking when the available evidence is indicating otherwise. Ethical questions aside, the fact that the vaccines don’t provide sterilising immunity, means that there’s no medical case for the vaccine passport system. It’s being imposed for political reasons

        1. U N M U T U A L

          “Gooble, gobble, we accept her, we accept her, one of us, one of us!”
          ONE OF US!!!

    2. Joe

      Janet your baby will receive multiple vaccinations at 2, 4, 6, 12 and 13 months of age to protect them and the unborn (rubella in pregnancy has horrible consequences)
      The last time anti vaxxers promoted lies to induce vaccine hesitancy/refusal similar the anti vaxxers on this site… they have a vile agenda and don’t give a whit about their fellow citizens .. it resulted in deaths and horrible consequences for childhood victims of measles

      Ignore any advice here including mine put please, please discuss it with your public health nurse/Doctor to get honest advice on what is best

      1. Clampers Outside

        Those vaccines have long term histories. These new vaccines do not. The Dr/nurse will not have crystal ball.

  4. Andy Pipkin

    I don’t remember ever asking if Yokes or jazz cigarettes or other substances had been passed by the WHO when I was a youth !!

    1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

      rather silly argument if you were thick enough to snort rat killer, smoke sheep poop that’s your perogative

    2. ian-oG

      ”Jazz cigarettes”……lol

      I remember the not-as-trendy-as-he-thought he was ‘drug dude’ giving us a talk in school in the late 80s and he told us about ‘magic cigarettes’.

      Which we all went and had at lunch break to laugh about the new name we had for them.

      1. Papi

        Heard of a situation where the guy handed around 10 grams of hash to inspect and was handed back 12.

  5. millie bobby brownie

    I’m sure this will get right up people’s noses but my daughter will be getting the vaccine once it’s made available. Strongly recommended.

    1. Andy Pipkin

      I agree with you 100% Millie!!
      When we were babies we got injections for diseases that were around in the 50’s and 60’s and later in school got another one (mind you the free sugar lump swayed it for me!)

        1. ian-oG

          With inflation and interest that might be several tonnes of sugar millie, you might want to look into that?

        2. Fergalito

          I got a sugar lump AND a free, yellow toothbrush from Charlie Haughey and a Safe Cross Code badge with a picture of Judge on it.

          How’d ya like them apples.

    2. Des

      No response to either the:
      a) my daughter won’t mind if I advocate for her vaccination
      or the
      b) Tis the same as any oul vaccine for disease we had in the good ol days lark

      Both deluded, both looking for outrage.

      1. millie bobby brownie

        Des, with all due respect, don’t talk about things you don’t understand. My daughter has a genetic condition that compromises her immune system and the vaccine is highly recommended by her team in Temple St.

        1. Des

          Millie Bobby Brownie, with all due respect, I was not referring to your personal circumstances so no need to infer I was personalising my response. What I do understand is that there has been very little research into the vaccine in children, immunocompromised or not. Therefore it is everyones decision to make for their child. I personally would not use the vaccine with my kids, I stated that earlier. If Temple Street say that you should ( they can only say that really to be fair) then of course you can be guided by them or not. There are plenty of kids who wont get it for lots of reasons.

          1. millie bobby brownie

            You replied to my comment with the words:

            “TROLL ALERT ABOVE”

            You then went on to imply that I gave my daughter no choice in whether or not she is vaccinated.

            How else was I to interpret it, if not personally?

    3. GiggidyGoo

      That’s a choice Millie, and probably the best choice in the circumstances for you.

      Had the circumstances been different, would you have her given this vaccination?

      1. millie bobby brownie

        That’s a good question Giggidy, and tbh with you I don’t know. I think it depends. If we were seeing much higher numbers of young children becoming infected with it, then it would probably be a definite yes. But otherwise probably not, and it’s not because of any mistrust or hesitancy regarding the vaccine, but because I’d rather see the vaccine being used in countries that are lagging in their vaccine rollout because of supply and suffering high numbers of cases. Once these countries see better vaccine uptake/supply, the numbers should start to come down, hopefully lessening the risk of the virus being spread via international travel.

        1. Bitnboxy

          Excellent reply Millie and a rare example of a measured and considered response on this site.

        2. Des

          A vaccine may make no difference long term in infection rates or not either here or in less developed countries. We are seeing multiple re-infections (admittedly with less hospitalisations thankfully) India is a case in point with infection rising and falling and very little vaccination (25% of people have had only one vaccination) and infection rates of nearly 30 million people infected but yet despite minimal vaccination the cases are falling significantly. Maybe these countries will end up with natural immunity faster?

    4. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

      I understand that for your little one, as see my niece above

  6. Cian

    Dose 1 of 2 Progress
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░ 76.3%

    Fully Vaccinated Progress
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░░ 66.8%

    As of Monday, 26 Jul 2021.
    Note: percentages of 16+ population only.
    Each of these numbers should go up by one each weekday this week.

    1. SOQ

      And yet India, with a very low vaccination rate, is seeing infections and hospitalisations plummet.

      1. Nigel

        After an absolutely massive surge over the summer, with almost all commentary suggesting deaths have probably been severely undercounted, so I’m not sure what inference your comment is supposed to be drawing or how it’s responsive to Cian’s.

        1. Cian

          The analysis, from the Center for Global Development, a think tank in Washington, D.C., looks at the number of “excess deaths” that occurred in India between January 2020 and June 2021 — in other words, how many more people died during that period than during a similar period of time in 2019 or other recent years.

          Drawing death data from civil registries and other sources, the report came up with three estimates for undercounts. The conclusion is that between 3.4 and 4.7 million more people died in that pandemic period than would have been predicted. That’s up to 10 times higher than the Indian government’s official death toll of 414,482.


          1. Des

            But Cian, we are not talking about excess deaths – we are talking about vacination rates vs infection fall and how odd that is.

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            Is there a RIP.in where someone can check nursing homes so they can present it as a scientific study to refute such claims?

          3. Cian

            But Cian, we are not talking about excess deaths – we are talking about vacination rates vs infection fall and how odd that is.

            #1 They are suggesting that the official Covid numbers from India are grossly under-reported.
            #2 If the numbers are valid – How is that odd? If you look at practically any country’s peak/decline prior to vaccination they followed a similar steep increase/peak/decline; if anything their curve rises slower and falls slower… they have a wider base.

          4. GiggidyGoo

            “three estimates for undercounts” – you wrote that just above.
            And now you’re at the “If the numbers are valid – How is that odd?” stage.

            Estimates are not valid numbers.
            The 4 d’s yet again.

      2. Des

        Just noted that above. Kind of incredible really when you look at the figures and the small amount of vaccination they have achieved to date.

        1. Cian

          Even looking at their official numbers:

          They dropped below 50,000 new cases one month ago (today).
          They are still having 38,000 cases per day. World’s slowest plummet. (granted the peak was 390,000/day)

          And deaths is holding steady at about 1,000/day for the last 6 weeks, (albeit down from a peak of 4,200)

          1. Des

            ‘#1 They are suggesting that the official Covid numbers from India are grossly under-reported’ – Thats pretty much standard for every country including Ireland.

            ‘#2 If the numbers are valid – How is that odd? If you look at practically any country’s peak/decline prior to vaccination they followed a similar steep increase/peak/decline; if anything their curve rises slower and falls slower… they have a wider base’

            But only 25% of the population have had ONE dose – how can that be driving down infections given this is where the delta variant originated and most people dont have access to santitation let alone a vaccine.. Strange. That fall in infection can’t be explained by vaccine take up yet here we are. Maybe vaccines dont make that much of a difference – you would expect India to be spiralling out of control but hey here we are with the infections falling away on their own.

          2. SOQ

            Not only has India very low numbers now but they are a very poor country where what we are told was necessary, like lockdowns and social distancing, is not possible- they should have one of the highest per million rates in the world by now.

            So what is India doing that is so different? They have licensed Ivermectin as an early intervention against CoVid-19 and are also using Hydroxychloroquine. Not only is Ivermectin effective as early treatment but it also reduces the viral load of people infected with SARS-CoV-2, so they are much less infectious.

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