70 thoughts on “Wednesday’s Papers

  1. Berlingo

    https://m.independent.ie/news/no-more-restrictionswhen-you-arrive-in-england-from-ireland-but-is-it-easy-for-those-looking-to-travel-40714851.html

    Great news says the Indo in a in-depth article of hard-hitting reporting.
    Since yesterday Irish people can travel to the UK without the ‘PCR tests, quarantines and vaccine passes that all became hurdles for those who wanted to cross the pond’ during the pandemic.Except it’s utter nonsense.There were never any restrictions,tests,vaccine passes or quarantine required to ‘cross the pond’ under the Common Travel Area.
    They were only required of travellers from the UK to Ireland and these were eased last week.Lamentable journalism by a national newspaper oblivious to travel arrangements in place for much of the pandemic.

    1. ProfessorMark

      ‘There were never any restrictions,tests,vaccine passes or quarantine required to ‘cross the pond’ under the Common Travel Area.
      They were only required of travellers from the UK to Ireland and these were eased last week’

      Are you sure about this? I was looking on the UK site and Gov.ie site as I have to do a family trip in October and found it really hard to find info. My conclusion was that if fully vaccinated as an adult you can travel (using the cert?) and kids under 12 can travel with no test and kids over 12 have a test within 72 hours of travel. Madly there seems to be nothing on the way back to Ireland?? Very confused.

      1. Berlingo

        My company has been sending people to the UK since the beginning of the year.
        No tests,vaccine certificates or quarantine required.Not even a passenger locator form.Occasional checks at Heathrow to make sure you weren’t transiting from another country but most times not.Common Travel Area.Ireland required all of these for the return journey.It’s now allowing in double-jabbed people from the UK without the need for quarantining.I just think it’s extraordinary that a national newspaper has been unaware of this.

          1. ProfessorMark

            From UK site:

            Ireland, the UK, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man
            If you’re travelling to England from within the UK, Ireland, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, you do not need to:

            complete a passenger locator form
            take any COVID-19 tests
            quarantine on arrival in England
            You must not have been outside of the UK, Ireland, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man in the 10 days before you arrive in England

            @Berlingo – thats as you say really poor journalism – after a search I found the above which is what you refer to I think (no mention of kids tho)

    1. ManT

      Twitter’s great crac. Sure ye can say anything. My nuts fell off after I had covid and my balance hasn’t been the same since

    2. Micko

      That’s terrible. Poor fellah. RIP

      However, I would point out that it is super rare for that to happen.

      In fact, it’s so so rare – it actually made the news.

      It’s literally on the front page of the Metro today.

  2. Tommy Bohan

    So now they’re saying that two Russians are suspects for taking Madeline McCann. This after the Sun and their likes acting as judge, jury and executioner in saying that Christian Brueckner done it. Before that they said it was some Portuguese farmer, and before that again they named Robert Murat. Murat ended up getting around £600,000 off tabloids when it was shown he had absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance. I said a few months ago that Brueckner had nothing to do with it, he is a complete lowlife, but there is nothing whatsoever to show he was involved. It’s just one scapegoat after another. These rags of papers will print anything sensational to sell more copies, doesn’t matter whether it’s true or false. It’s just an opportunity to sell more.
    I know nothing about these 2 Russians so can’t comment too much on them, except to say it is highly unlikely they had any connection. Why are investigators ignoring the huge red flags that point to you know who? There are many aspects to this case that look highly suspicious. I don’t think we’ll ever find out for sure what happened to her or get any convictions. Smells of cover up to me. But it’s only my opinion, one that I have garnered after a lot of reading of the case, I could be right, I could be wrong. It just amazes me how easy the McCann’s are getting off as regards to being suspects, they should be questioned way more.

  3. f_lawless

    France has become the front lines in what is essentially a class war being waged by globalist technocratic elites on ordinary citizens of the world.

    As puppet leader Macron declares “We may need to ask ourselves the question of mandatory vaccination for all.” . “pandemonium” looms “as huge strike over vaccine laws to cripple France”

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1471745/emmanuel-macron-france-news-coronavirus-pandemic-compulsory-vaccine-laws-paris/amp

    1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

      Please do not refer to anything from the Express, unless it is to point out how silly it is.

    2. Bitnboxy

      Lol. The Express – well that is it settled! Also, the US election was stolen.

      Anyone fancy storming the Elysee Palace?

      1. Verbatim

        Nothing in this article is incorrect. What is it with you fellows?
        The police/gendarmes, deputies or senators are some of the elite who don’t have to prove they are vaccinated by showing the Passe Sanitaire in order to get into restaurants/bars go on trains etc., they just have to show their official government badge. I wonder why that is?

    3. SOQ

      It’s really good to see that it is the unions who are driving this in France.

      It is of course a civil rights issue but unfortunately, the Irish Left couldn’t organise a pee up in a brewery.

      1. goldenbrown

        hey Bitnboxy…
        one of my kids is looking for summer job for the few weeks that’s left before he has to go back to school, I was just wondering do FG pay well for the oul spam?
        is it a set weekly rate or per post? or just voluntary? can he apply on Friendface or is it invite only thing?

    1. Lilly

      ‘The appointment of Katherine Zappone as an Irish diplomatic envoy has already let loose a lot of free speech – not all of it complimentary.’

      LOL.

  4. Formerly known as @ireland.com

    Time for Ireland to act against the Catholic Church. Putting people at risk for some fairy in the sky is not acceptable.

  5. Spud

    Interesting how the Irish Daily Mail know the poor bus driver suffered a fatal heart attack as the Gardai are still investigating if that was the case…

  6. Mr T

    Booster shots on the cards in good old Ireland – we’ve surpassed UK vaccination rate, and yet both England AND Scotland have had their “freedom day”s and opened up.

    Funny how Mehole Martin wanted to follow Scotlands lead when it came to more restrictions, but now even with lower cases and deaths than them, they are opening up and we are not.

    Truly the dunce’s of the class

        1. Cian

          *clap* *clap*

          Gold star for GiggidyGoo, once again demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the topic at hand.

    1. Cian

      The same UK that has seen 1,172 Covid deaths in the 15 days since “Freedom day”? But saw only 521 in the 15 days prior to “Freedom day”?

      1. SOQ

        And your answer to to just keep locked up is it?

        Keep ruining people’s businesses and lives indefinitely?

        1. SOQ

          And your answer to to just keep locked up is it?

          Keep ruining people’s businesses and lives indefinitely?

        2. Junkface

          The more people we get vaccinated in a country, the more likely we can live with the virus, still operate at something close to normal in business, tourism, restaurants etc and have no complete lockdowns. It is a combination of wishy-washy political leadership and antivaxers who are slowing down the recovery for everyone.

          If you hate lockdowns, get vaccinated.

          1. SOQ

            We know that people are still infectious after vaccination – something that no guff about reduced spread is going to hide. Israel has 92% of its population vaccinated AND they are having a new spike. When the majority of people getting seriously sick are vaccinated, it is pretty obvious that it is not what it was promised to be.

            And, it is pretty obvious that vaccines are no more the answer than lockdowns.

          2. Junkface

            @SOQ

            According to reports people who were vaccinated are not getting seriously ill, compared to how ill people were getting before vaccinations. So the vaccine is saving lives, it works, but the Delta variant is so highly contagious that they have to have localized lockdowns. Imagine how bad it would be without the vaccines?

            “Despite the new outbreak, the country’s current death rate remains close to zero, and only 26 of 729 active coronavirus patients were hospitalized”

            https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/06/24/world/covid-vaccine-coronavirus-mask

          3. SOQ

            You are contradicting yourself?

            Either the reason for getting vaccinated is communitarian or it is personal and given that you may be just as infectious afterwards means the only reason is personal.

          4. Mr T

            Iceland is >70% vaccinated, seeing a new spike in cases though and more restrictions.

            What is the endgoal? Is it cases or deaths?
            If deaths, then why mandate vaccinations for those not at risk (children, young adults)?

          5. Nigel

            ‘Either the reason for getting vaccinated is communitarian or it is personal’

            Who told you it’s a binary? Vaccines benefit the individual and the community. They are complementary benefits.

          6. Nigel

            ‘more restrictions.’

            We’re in the process of opening up from lockdown, so that’s less restrictions? By definition?

  7. ProfessorMark

    @SOQ
    OK. So, Vaccines are a firewall not a firedoor, there will be infections after vaccination. Thats an accepted fact and that is true for many vaccines. This is not some great discovery in the case of Covid vaccines. Initially they thought the efficacy/ prevention would be about 50%. It seems to be far higher – 70 – 85% in many vaccines.

    The majority of reinfections after vaccination will result in low grade illness usually not requiring hospitalisation. Thats why the majority of infections are in the younger cohort as they are the most unvaccinated cohort. So you can have high cases even among a vaccinatedpopulation. In your example above you mentioned Israel – last weeks figures showed: coronavirus patients in serious condition has reached 97. There are 22 patients in critical condition, and 17 patients on ventilators.

    From your post above I don’t think ‘When the majority of people getting seriously sick are vaccinated’ is true.

    Just to note – it is entirely possible to have 92% of the population vaccinated and have new cases (both in vaccinated and in the cohort of unvaccinated who will be driving new cases)

    However you should know the real figure for vaccinated individuals in Israel is 5.63 million citizens (61 percent of the population). Of the overall figure, 5.17 million people (56 percent of the population) have received the second dose of the vaccine. So there are plenty of unvaccinated people there to drive infection and rapidly push the numbers up.

    Just always good to tease out the detail I find especially on the facts. It makes the argument clearer to define.

    So what is your argument? Vaccines dont work? Israel is a case study in ineffectiveness of vaccines? People are very sick even after being vaccinated? Your intention is unclear.

    1. SOQ

      As above- either the reason for getting vaccinated is communitarian or it is personal and given that you may be just as infectious afterwards, the only reason can be personal. The entire argument for vaccine passports falls down on this point.

      1. Cian

        You are wrong.

        If you are vaccinated you are less likely to get Covid-19 (the disease).
        If you do get Covid-19 (unlikely), yes, you will be infectious.
        If you do not get Covid-19 (likely) you will not be infectious.

        If you are vaccinated you are less likely to be infectious.

        1. Mr T

          But still infectious enough to spread it. Even with 100% vaccine coverage covid will still be spreading through the population. Herd immunity is not achievable here.

          With that in mind – why not a return to personal responsibility? Choose to get vaccinated to protect yourself, but not others because it doesnt make sense to vaccinate to protect others given the reduction in spread is estimated to be 3x, which is not enough to stop covid circulating indefinitely (R0 with no restrictions is ~5 – 9.5)

          1. ProfessorMark

            @Mr T
            ‘Even with 100% vaccine coverage covid will still be spreading through the population. Herd immunity is not achievable here’ – No thats not true. We need to acheive hard immunity either through natural disease which we are not prepared to accept or through vaccine and natural infection which is what we are doing. Vaccines will reduce spread and poor outcomes. At 100% vaccine coverage the virus will not be an issue but lots of people forget is that this virus is doing what all viruses do – they are dynamic – morphing and turning into variants so the less variants we have the better outcomes for all of us in terms of returns to normality. The less variants turn up as a result of less infections (more vaccinations). So we vaccinate for lots of reasons but the virus is dynamic.

            Regarding personal respnsibility – people cannot do this – we especially cannot do it with alcohol in the mix – it matters little to a 30 year old with no health issues whether they get covid or not – it does matter however that they cant fly, go to a concert etc. So we have seen – even with big implications for personal freedom people still dont get vaccinated. The average 30 year old does not link his/ her covid infection as a big deal or an imposition on our health system – they dont see the relationship at all.

        2. SOQ

          No Cian you are wrong- you do not ‘get’ CoVid-19, only the virus known as SARS-CoV-2. At present there is no evidence either way as to if there is any level on immunity against being infected- just speculation and wishful thinking.

          There is evidence however that post vaccination you can still catch SARS-CoV-2 and still transmit it onwards- so the whole passport thing makes no sense.

          Whiter you develop the disease known as CoVid-19 is another issue altogether and has no bearing on how infectious you may be.

          1. ProfessorMark

            @SOQ

            Firstly, we had a conversation earlier which you ignored probably because of the inconvenience of truth and logic presented. You can see it below.
            With regard to your comments above. I’d really like to address these as you present them a lot in several differnt guises every week.

            1. ‘No Cian you are wrong- you do not ‘get’ CoVid-19, only the virus known as SARS-CoV-2’
            A: True but this is pedantic, it makes no difference as we are interested in the infection it causes and theoutcomes of that. If you wanted to continue to be pedantic in this fashion why not just specifically refer to each varient in your commentary – there are lots of them.

            2. ‘At present the is no evidence either way as to if there is any level on immunity against being infected- just speculation and wishful thinking’
            A. This is patently untrue and commonsense will illustrate that. If infections were not reduced by vaccines we would have spiralling cases. We don’t have spiralling cases. ( The example of Israel you used early was incorrect but I have already pointed that out already). You don’t vaccinate for covid to give immunity you vaccinate to reduce the risk of serious illness. You may gain immunity to the CURRENT covid variant through vaccination or natural exposure.

            3. There is evidence however that post vaccination you can still catch SARS-CoV-2 and still transmit it onwards- so the whole stupid passport thing makes no sense.
            A: True you can still transmit it but if you are transmitting to a cohort that are vaccinated it will have minimal impact. If you are transmitting into a cohort that astill is very much unvaccinated (look at Australia now – car crash in the next few months) then you will spiral infections up.

            4. Whiter you develop the disease known as CoVid-19 is another issue altogether and has no bearing on how infectious you may be.
            A: It has a huge bearing, if you develop Covid symptoms you may be infectious – most people are – including (this is the big issue with Covid and the differentiator between it and SARS & MERS for example) is that you can transmit whilst asymptomatic which makes it more challenging to control. Hence vaccination. We can be thankful that the CFR of Covid is so low bacuse if it were anything like that or SARS or MERs you would be down at your local vaccination centre screaming for a vacination shot.

      2. Nigel

        It’s astonishing to watch somone erase the entire concept of risk reduction from their cognitive processing in order to maintain their point of view. Not to mention the amazing idea that a thing can be individual and communitarian at the same time.

    2. Junkface

      Thanks for the info Professor Mark. As usual, on any discussion regarding vaccines, SOQ will get bogged down in semantics, or adjacent issues to the key point to try to support their antivax point of view.

      The vaccines work, you are less contagious if vaccinated and you catch covid Delta. You are less likely to take up a hospital bed. Therefore relieving the health system, and disrupting other sick people with different diseases like cancer waiting to be treated. You are also much less likely to die of covid. It’s simple.

      1. ProfessorMark

        @Junkface
        You said it better than me!
        Just to be clear – I’m not some big pharma supporter, happy to give my health data away so I can go to a bar. I have huge reservations about lockdown, imposition of vaccine passports, the push to have kids vaccinated. I have big concerns about our economy, governance etc. BUT, after readaing a ton of stuff on this the only way I can see us getting out of this is through vaccination.

  8. ProfessorMark

    @SOQ

    I laid out a response to your argument above which underlined several inaccuracies upon which you based your argument. You now adjust the focus to include rationale for vaccination. I’d prefer if you would respond to the points you raised first as opposed to bringing in another argument as a diversionary tactic.

    There is unfortunately no other way to get out of the pandemic other than vaccination- however imperfect. You are either going to get Covid or get vaccinated (and possibly get covid in a milder form)There are of course a whole host of other arguments around personal choice, passports, certs, kids vaccination etc. These are other strands but equally interesting to discuss but central to the question is the fact that if cases spiral then we end up with healthcare issues and vaccination seems to negate somewhat these impacts.
    Maybe you could lay out what you think we should do going forward – what would that world look like to you?
    No vaccinations, let it rip? Leave healthcare to work itself out? Open everything up?

    1. SOQ

      I am an advocate of the focused protection as outlined in the Great Barrington Declaration. Herd immunity will happening one way or another and if it is the case that a sizable number of people who are vaccinated then contract SARS-CoV-2, then it is happening despite vaccinations, not because of them.

      Focused protection is the exact opposite of ‘letting it rip’ btw, and what happened in the nursing homes both here in Ireland and elsewhere, was downright criminal.

  9. ProfessorMark

    @SOQ
    The great Barrington Declaration is moot. The meaures outlined there had very little bearing in fact and very poor potential for working in day to day life. At this point in academic circles its considered a rather crackpot document and is probably an embarrasing episode that many will want to forge6t.
    The herd immunity that Prof Sunetra Gupta talked about last year was no where near what she said it was. If it were the cases would have fizzled out soon after. Only now are we closer to heard immunity and that has been achieved through vaccination.
    You say ‘Herd immunity will happening one way or another and if it is the case that a sizable number of people who are vaccinated then contract SARS-CoV-2, then it is happening despite vaccinations, not because of them’ Thats an interesting point. Without vaccination, waiting for natural exposure to build immunity we wold be in a spiral of economic hell, our healthcare systems would be flattened. how long do you think herd immunity would take to build? It is possible to build natural herd immunity but you IGNORE the side effects and impacts of doing so. Its not possible or sustainable to wait for natural immunity.
    Finally I have addressed the vaccine efficacy twice in two different posts today – maybe you could re-cap on those and examine your bias as to what you expect a vaccine to do? Its clear you are unsure about this.

    Finally – you never did answer my original question:

    Maybe you could lay out what you think we should do going forward – what would that world look like to you?

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