Weird Science

at

This afternoon.

Earlier: “They’re Clearly Finding Places That They Can Get In”

Meanwhile….

 Tony O’Brien, former Director General of HSE

Last month, former Director General of the HSE, Tony O’Brien wrote in the Business Post:

“We are currently witnessing an emerging trend of seeking to blame the upsurge in Covid-19 infections in Europe on those who have not yet availed of the offer of a vaccine. It is tempting to do that, but we should be cautious.

This “othering” of the unvaccinated is further compounded by an increasing tendency to refer to the unvaccinated and “anti-vaxxers” in the same breath, as though they were synonymous, which they are not.

“…Efforts to “other” the unvaccinated take many forms. In Austria, Alexander Schallenberg, the new chancellor, twinned his announcement of a new period of severe lockdown with advance notice of a “vaccine mandate” from February.

“This means that the unvaccinated will be subject to fixed penalty notice fines – the range under discussion is €500 to €3,600 – and a build-up of unpaid fines could lead to imprisonment. It is a classic political case of “don’t blame us, blame the unvaccinated” in a country with one of the lowest vaccine uptake rates in Europe.

Politicising the vaccine-hesitant in a country with a low vaccine uptake, and risking driving them naively into the arms of unreconstructed Nazis, is a high-risk and badly thought-out strategy.

“Here in Ireland, where vaccine rates are high, the political response to the ongoing increase in infection rates has so far been less dramatic. There is no planned return to lockdown, and no talk yet of any universal vaccine mandate. But we have seen the beginnings of an attempt to blame the increase in infections on the unvaccinated.

“…In terms of the spread of infection, it is inaccurate to suggest that it is down to the unvaccinated. Indeed, doing so deflects from three key issues that simply cannot be laid at the feet of the unvaccinated.

“The first is that the government knowingly pursued an opening-up strategy at a time when infection rates were rising, effectively encouraging mass gatherings indoors in nightclubs and other places. This sent a signal that led to a general relaxation of our individual protective measures in terms of hand hygiene, masking, caution about social contacts, and attention to symptoms and self-isolation.

“Secondly, the government has consistently misled us with the mantra that “schools are safe”, without any basis for that claim. The highest rates of Covid-19 infection of any age group are now being seen among primary school pupils.

“Finally, the government dithered all year long on the question of antigen testing, neither trusting nor properly educating the population in their correct use. This has deprived us of the benefits of antigen testing while visiting upon us the maximum harm possible through their well-intentioned but incorrect use.

“…simply blaming the unvaccinated for our troubles, whether in Austria or Ireland, is not the answer, especially when the truth is far more inconveniently complicated. In Europe, we should remember that finding scapegoats and trampling on their rights at times of crisis or social and economic turmoil is a dangerous path to tread.

“Occupationally-oriented vaccine mandates, such as in healthcare, are justifiable and reasonable; using vaccine passes and testing as a way of opening society is prudent. General vaccine mandates that interfere with the basic right to bodily integrity are, however, a whole other ball game.”

Tony O’Brien: Blaming the unvaccinated for Covid-19 surge is tempting but dangerous (Business Post, November 28, 2021)

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65 thoughts on “Weird Science

    1. benblack

      He has obviously learned from his mistakes.

      Others, however, have not – looking at you Emperor Holohan.

      1. Daisy Chainsaw

        Ah Gigger, you’re humiliating yourself now with your sad Brucie obsession. I almost feel sorry for you.

        Almost!

    1. Micko

      Semantics Nigel.

      What would you call the people fined in Italy today for not having zer health pass?

    2. Kali

      Being excluded from society is most definitely a punishment, some may argue that its partially self inflicted but that would not change the definition of the doctors description

      1. Nigel

        It is not a punishment, it is a public health measure. It’s not being done to punish anyone, it is being done to promote public health.

        1. SOQ

          How can it be a public health measure when the vaccinated can be just as infectious?

          And don’t give me any waffle that they are not because all such metrics are from the first 8 weeks post vaccine- before the waning occurs.

          1. SOQ

            How can it be a public health measure when the vaccinated are just as infectious?

            And don’t give me waffle that they are not, because all such metrics are from the first 8 weeks post vaccine- before the waning occurs.

            From what we know now, over a 3 month period and beyond, they are just as infectious and it would be negligent to regard them as anything else.

          2. SOQ

            You have zero proof of that. That only 5% of the population are responsible for the current spread of SARS-CoV-2, is complete nonsense.

          3. Nigel

            The unvaccinatedr rates of infection, hospitalisation and death are all greater than that of vaccinated.

          4. Cui Bono?

            That’s not true Nigel. 100% of deaths in the last HSE report I saw a few weeks ago were vaccinated.

            Show me a recent report that shows otherwise and one that does not include an average including months earlier in the year when no one had the vax.

            Apparently they’ve now changed the reporting so that you’re classified as unvaccinated if it’s not 14 days after your 2nd dose or booster or if you don’t get a booster.

          5. Cui Bono?

            Did you even bother to read this?

            This report is from 27th June – 20th November

            Only 35% of the population was fully vaccinated on June 27th, we were up to 55% by the end of July etc. so it will not give a clear picture and what it does show doesn’t even back up your point of view. It makes our arguments stronger. Where is an honest report from the HSE?

            Try harder Nigel.

          6. Cui Bono?

            Yes Nigel and in the 17 Oct – 20 Nov section 56% vaccinated died (from 75% vaccinated population) and 15% non vaccinated died (from 25% unvaccinated population).

            That’s almost 4 times more vaccinated dead but only 3 times higher vaccination rate. This shows the vaccinated have a higher death rate than unvaccinated. You are less likely to die in hospital if you’re not vaccinated. This is what the data shows. Wake up.

          7. Nigel

            Of course it’s around 90% of the adult population vaxxed, 10% unvaxxed. 11 times more likely to end up in hospital, once there 3 times more likely to end up in ICU, if unvaccinated. Vaccinated older people are at high risk of mortality if they experience a breakthrough infection, unfortunately, but unvaccinated death rates disproportionately high in comparison, even so.

          8. hmmm

            https://www.skirsch.com/covid/GermanAnalysis.pdf

            The higher the vaccination rate, the higher the excess mortality
            Prof. Dr. Rolf Steyer and Dr. Gregor Kappler, 16 November 2021

            Summary
            The correlation between the excess mortality in the federal states and their vaccination rate when weighted with the relative number of inhabitants of the federal state is .31. This number is surprisingly high and would be negative if vaccination were to reduce mortality. For the period under consideration (week 36 to week 40, 2021), the following applies: The higher the vaccination rate, the higher the
            excess mortality. In view of the forthcoming policy measures aimed at reducing the virus, this figure is worrying and needs to be explained if further policy measures are to be taken with the aim of increasing the vaccination rate.

          9. Cui Bono?

            That’s not what the report you shared shows Nigel. Hospital and ICU admissions can be for multiple reasons and they may have covid too or maybe only suspected of having it (ref Leo Varadkars admission). They might get it in hospital while in for a leg operation or major heart surgery or cancer treatment – like the 2 I know who died and are still classified as covid deaths when they shouldn’t be.

            The main thing the vaccines are trying to do is stop death but the death rates are higher for vaccinated. It’s because the vaccines are not working. The old and vulnerable can still die from covid. The vaccines are not protecting them. Summer is over, the winter flu and cold season is here.

          10. Nigel

            ‘It’s a study of sketchy vaccines.’

            It doesn’t study the vaccines at all. The entire thing is a violation of the standard that correlation is not causation, even going so far as to directly conclude that the vaccines are causing the excess mortality with no justification whatsoever. It’s supplementary conclusion is that the anxiety caused by vaccines must be doing it, despite no evidence whatsoever that the vaccines cause rather than ease anxiety, let alone how anxiety could lead to excess mortality. It’s a stupid study. Really, really stupid.

          11. Nigel

            ‘That’s not what the report you shared shows Nigel. ‘

            You’re right, I swapped the figures:

            ‘unvaccinated individuals were 3 times more likely to be hospitalised with laboratory
            confirmed COVID-19 than fully vaccinated individuals
            unvaccinated individuals were 11 times more likely to be admitted to ICU with laboratory confirmed COVID-19 than fully vaccinated individuals’

            So, the vaccine prevents death by lowering your chances of catching it threefold and of entering the ICU with it elevenfold.

          12. hmmm

            Hallelujah

            Nigel now accepts that correlation is not equal to causation and so will now drop his false thesis that atmospheric CO2 is the cause of “climate change”.

            In the meantime the rest of us know that this ‘correlation’ signal is significant and bears further investigation into these untested, unapproved medications.

          13. Nigel

            Except there is causation in that instance, since, CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and its effects have been studied extensively. I’m always astonished at the confidence with which you simultaneously make assertions about this subject and often in the same sentence show you don’t actually know anything about it.

            Millions of people have taken the vaccine, I expect we’ll know more about its effects than just about any other medicine in history. But not from that study, which is genuinely terrible.

          14. Cui Bono?

            The mental gymnastics you’re doing here is incredible Nigel but it’s to be expected by someone who refuses to look at the other side of the argument so you stay ignorant of so much data.

            The risk of hospitalisation from covid is tiny for most of us.

            The risk of going to ICU is even tinier.

            The risk of death is minuscule.

            Check the risks here – https://qcovid.org/

            The report you shared shows you have a higher chance of dying from covid if vaccinated but this is most likely because the old and sick are still the ones dying from covid and most of them are vaccinated. The vaccines are not protecting them and do not work as well as was hoped.

          15. Nigel

            Yes, vaccines and other measures have got the numbers down despite the surge, and the unvaccinated population is small, despite their disproportinate infection and hospitalisation rates.

            Once infected, the older age groups are vulnerable, which is unavoidable, but Vaccines protect the old by lowering their chances of being infected.

          16. hmmm

            This isn’t about you Nigel.

            It’s about your fake science and outright lies.

            As much as you’d like to deny it there is an unfortunate correlation between the fake coronavirus vaccines and excess death.

            Inconvenient for your fake public health agenda, we know, but the truth will out.

            Now you’re on to jabbing children with unapproved, untested vaccines that do not work, (If they worked then whyy the continued restrictions? Why the return of fake panic because Omicron infects the vaccinated?)

            Why are you still pushing the “public health advice” from the same people who can up with the €9 meal gambit? Why do you continually align yourself with frauds and charlatans?

          17. Nigel

            Get mad at me all you like, you pushed the bad study, and relying on bad studies to make your assertions makes your assertions bad.

          18. Nigel

            It’s a bad study and I showed you why but now you’re backing up and suddenly everything you assert is proved and settled and the study is awesome again, it’s like you’re working from a model of goldfish memory to keep resserting as proven what was shown to be wrong ten minutes ago.

            The Lancet:

            ‘It appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population as a possible and relevant source of transmission when deciding about public health control measures.’

            Yes, hence masks and social distancing.

          19. Nigel

            ‘The early spikes in mortality that appear to occur soon after vaccination may be caused by the infirm, moribund, and severely ill receiving vaccination in priority order and thus simply appearing to hasten deaths that might otherwise have occurred later in the year.’

        2. Cui Bono?

          @Nigel
          Their method of promoting public health is segregating a big section of society which is causing harm to their health and their friends and family’s health too – stress, anxiety, depression from exclusion, unable to work out in gyms now etc. All of these things are bad for mental and physical health. And I’m not just talking about the % who will never take the vaccines ever, I’m talking also about the many people who were coerced into taking them who really did not want to.

          We should all be respected and treated equally.

          1. SOQ

            Logically, there should have been a cost benefit analysis done at every step of the way, taking into account both economic and social impacts.

            Instead, they ploughed ahead and spent a (borrowed) fortune, while deliberately ignoring the state of the health service.

            It is so inept that it is no wonder people started looking around for other theories to explain it all.

          2. Cui Bono?

            @SOQ
            I completely agree.

            @Nigel
            No Nigel it’s not good enough to just say “pandemics are rough”.

            No cost benefit analysis for illogical mandates and no extra ICU beds in a pandemic is not just stupid, it’s insane or what I any many others believe is sinister. We are not a poor country, we can add extra beds and pay for the cost benefit analysis. There is no way the government or any health experts in NPHET can be that stupid to not do these basic necessary and vital tasks. There is an agenda. At the very least they should all be sacked for incompetence.

          3. Nigel

            There’s an agenda to get through the pandemic as fast as possible, cutting corners and pretending things are fine or getting better, but the pandemic refuses to so-operate.

          4. Micko

            Countries is some parts of the world putting people into vaccine camps and others fining them for leaving their gaffs, others mandating it so you can go to work and Nigel is like “it’s for your own good. It’s just a public health measure. It would all go away if you just complied, like me”

            Except it doesn’t.

            He’s too far gone lads. He can’t be helped.

            Leave him be.

          5. Nigel

            Good thing we’re not Australia, isn’t it? Always worth remembering at election time – who would you want to be in charge during a crisis?

          6. Micko

            Ah ok. I dunno, here I guess.

            I’m not gonna argue with you anymore. Fair?

            Seen any good films lately?

            I went to see the new Dune. I liked it. My pal hated it, but he’s a big fan of the original. Read all the books and all.

            I see the original is now on Netflix. Might check it out, looks like it’s dated.

          7. benblack

            The recent ‘Dune’ film is great, IMO – was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.

            IIRC, I recommended it to you, Micko.

            Get better movie going friends!

          8. Micko

            What’s IIRC?

            Yeah I thought Dune was good. My first intro to the franchise. I think my mate might have been judging it unfairly though.

            He missed the “Part 1” bit at the start and spent a lot of the film shaking his head and wondering why it was so slow. ;-)

          9. Micko

            That’s a good flick. I like Tom as an actor. It’s as a member of the human race I’m slightly concerned about him…

      1. Jerr

        Amazing over 100 flights a day arriving into Ireland packed with passengers all untested, massive outdoor sports events with maskless crowds packed like sardines screaming their heads off and of course it’s not anything to do with this but just the unvaccinated spreading this
        Over 5thousand a day new cases and no news about omicron

  1. Micko

    Unvax’d people.

    The Irish gov is concerned about your health

    This is why they’ve banned you from gyms

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