IndiaTimescom, the online sister of The Times of India

Ireland Murders Pregnant Indian Dentist (India Times)

And on NDTV:

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5biGe09uMDo

Meanwhile:

Ronan Emmet writes:

Thought your readers might be interested to see this. Coverage from Bangalore…

Meanwhile, a scathing discussion on progressive online news source, The Young Turks:

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ&feature=g-all-u

“You know oftentimes when we talk about extremism, we talk about countries in the Middle East. But when you look at some of the laws that Ireland has when it comes to contraception and when it comes to abortion, you realise just how religious they really are.”

Thanks Fifi

99 thoughts on “An Indian View

      1. SBY

        Who is “we” exactly? Are you feeling some form of guilt regarding certain Irish facebook account holders / irish tourist operators / opinion piece writers in certain media?

          1. Emma

            Apologies, I was responding to an obviously sarcastic comment, with my own sarcasm
            when I used “we” I didn’t even include myself in that collective

            it’s easy for broadsheet to post the sensationalist headlines from India.
            there were loads of similar reports, comments, social networks, boycotts when Mauritius was making the headlines.

      1. SBY

        The full facts have yet to come out yet they’ve gone ahead and cherry picked the most sensationalist sound bites coupled it to a ridiculous head line and called it journalism.

        1. Mark Dennehy

          I love this demand that we wait for reports and fact to come out. It’s a crying shame that Youth Defence and their ilk aren’t so demanding when it comes to the dross they usually spout as “facts” when they’re the ones doing the shouting or putting up the billboard posters…

  1. Becker

    It reminds me of when the Michaela McAreavey trial returned the acquittal, and because of the horrendous actions of one (or a few individuals) from Mauritius, a lot of Irish people called for a boycott of Mauritius. In this case, the Irish state and law (and their twisted relationship with religion) have effectively allowed an Indian woman to die – are headlines and feelings like this really that surprising?

  2. Frodo Baggins

    This is the general view the world has of us this week.
    It will be very hard to shake this image.
    I’m glad we have it now as a nation. Our government has got to act to change this view.
    (and yes, I realise the article isn’t exactly objective)

    1. Munkifisht

      There’s the truth and there’s the story. I’m not sure about the truth yet, there hasn’t been a full investigation, but things should never have been allowed to got to the stage where something like this could happen. This is probably one of the worst advertisements for a modern Ireland in many years. Living in the UK I am hearing awful stuff being said about Ireland and it is pretty major news here (most likely because of the Asian population). This has made us look like the bog trotting, pig under the arm, ultra religious lunatic stereotypes that we did a very good job of shaking off over the last 15 years.

      1. Frodo Baggins

        Exceptionally well put, Munkifisht.
        The setback caused to our image I think is something we have to accept and even embrace in order for change to occur. When abroad and people accost us or even enquire about what the hell is going on – We should agree with them, and say there’s a real air of a need for change here, the fanatical minority are on their way out.
        Wait til you see this Saturday, the marches – at least the coverage of that will ensure people realise we’re not all backward, sod hopping, turf cutting, angelus saying, baby factory marrying, contraceptive avoiding paddies.

        1. Melton_Carbury

          Yes, I live in the UK, and was explaining the situation to friends, and my American housemates. They were dumbstruck by the thought such an event could happen in a developed country. While we’re (properly) concerned with the economic and technical progression we can make, our political institutions hold us back from ever becoming a place where we can ever really say from where we are proud to come. And there’s nothing redeeming about this, nothing but shame, and anger

          1. Colm

            Every country in the world has crosses to bear! I would not prefer to be from any other country in the world! except maybe France, Germany, well most of Europe actually, Australias o.k. too I suppose… But America…. no way…. well maybe New York, California, Illinois, but no way Mexico….!

      2. Bobs Fettucine

        Unfortunately ultra religious lunatics are still a significant influence on how the state is run.

        1. cluster

          I think that the real problem is the young people who just accept that there are no jobs in Ireland and apathy amongst so many of those who remain.

  3. Evan

    As extreme and biased and even borderline inaccurate as the headline is, i’m slightly for it as it may shame the government into doing the right and humane thing.
    We deserve to be ridiculed nationally right now, we messed up

    1. Pigeon Street

      With you on that Evan. My first reaction on reading the first headline was WTF, but if sensationalised international headlines contribute to a real and proper addressing in Ireland then I’m all for them.

    2. C Sharp

      I’m not for it at all.
      Angry as I am about the inaction, accusing our Government of murder actually puts Irish citizens in a dangerous position.

      The international shock at what has happened here is justified, but a headline like that and text which says “you read that correctly” is utter b*ll*cks of The Sun proportions.

    3. Boo H

      I’ll take a lot to shame this government. Don’t expect much to change any time soon. Before the weekend is over, the Vatican will have expressed an opinion on this.

      1. Bear/Wolf

        Catholic Institutions don’t do shame – that is delegated to their victims. It’s time for the Irish Government to stand up and show us that it is no longer a Catholic Institution but an Institution of the people.

    1. seany_delight

      All quiet on the Kildare Street front.

      This is a sh!t storm that no one there wants to touch.
      It’s the end of their political career when they do.

  4. Derek

    This is a harsh and tragic, but much needed lesson for Ireland (my home). The separation of church and state needs to happen, there needs to be a complete clean cut. Bullshit religion cannot be allowed to take any more lives.

    1. BLC

      He’s a troll, do you think? He seems to respond to abuse, but not argument, and he tends to say just enough to keep the outrage boiling.

      1. Munkifisht

        Don’t think he’s an intentional troll, he’s been posting on here re abortion for months now. It’s the same idiotic drum he bangs, never a reasonable argument out of him. More concerned with his fairy tales of gods and angles than with the life of a person.

        1. BLC

          I thought the mask slipped a few times yesterday. He talked about his “flock”, as if he was a priest, but then back-pedalled.

          Anyway, I’m giving him up for Advent.

  5. Father Filth

    The Smothering 2013.

    We could have that. Women return to Ireland next year for delayed and or dubious medical treatment.

    1. len

      Since the Irish people voted twice in Referendums past to legislate in line with the X case, it was not the Irish people who murdered her. But the sucessive governments who for 20 years did nothing, and everyone who has campaigned with lies, like that women never need abortions under any circumstances – well they most definately have her blood on their hands.

  6. Blah

    and then cue this….

    Press Release from Catholic Comment
    14 November 2012

    The death of Savita Halappanavar is a tragic loss and our sympathy goes to her husband and family. While we don’t know the full facts of the cause of death, it is clear that under current medical practice in Ireland, she should not have been denied treatment necessary to save her life.

    This is in line with ethical standards, including from a Catholic perspective. She should not have been told she could not receive necessary medical treatment because “this is a Catholic country.”

    In 2000, Professor John Bonnar, then chairman of Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, which represents 90%-95% of Ireland’s obstetricians and gynaecologists, explained the situation to the All Party Oireachtas Committee’s Fifth Report on Abortion as follows:

    ‘In current obstetrical practice rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention is required at a stage in pregnancy when there will be little or no prospect for the survival of the baby, due to extreme immaturity. In these exceptional situations failure to intervene may result in the death of both the mother and baby. We consider that there is a fundamental difference between abortion carried out with the intention of taking the life of the baby, for example for social reasons, and the unavoidable death of the baby resulting from essential treatment to protect the life of the mother.’

    In other words, for the hospital to have induced labour with the intention of saving Savita would have been in accord both with Irish law, normal Irish medical practice, and with Catholic teaching. In a recent article in the Irish Times, Bishop John Fleming stated that

    “…if the life of the mother is threatened, by illness or some other medical condition, the care provided by medical professionals will make sure that she receives all the medical care needed.”

    We hope that the investigations being carrying out will show if and why this did not happen in this situation.

    Catholic Comment Team

    1. Paul Moloney

      “Catholic Comment” is nothing more than the Iona Institute with a few other front faces. The same bunch of a dozen ultra-Catholics spend the whole day RTing each on Twitter.

      P.

      1. Sparks

        If even the Catholic church’s position is that the pregnancy should have been terminated, they should be at the forefront of seeking to have the necessary legislation put in place.

      1. BLC

        You can have all the sympathy in the world for the guy without granting him infallibility.

        Maybe it was said by a doctor. Maybe he misunderstood something. Maybe it wasn’t someone from the hospital, but a sympathetic fellow-patient. Or something. We don’t know yet.

    1. Blobster

      It would appear that someone said something like that. That’s very unfortunate for a number of reasons:

      - it shifts focus from investigating the real reasons why care was/was not given and how well and timely that care was given.
      - it misled the woman and her husband into understanding they were the victim of some arbitrary religious rule when the fact was, flawed as it may be it was the law of the land (of the understanding/misunderstanding of it) that may have led to some of the decisions taken or not taken.
      - it makes for eazy, lazy headlines and simplistic ones in internaitonal media about this woman’s death being because catholics sat around staring at her while she died.

      I suspect (although this all would need to be investigated) that someone perhaps said “this is a catholc country” in an attempt to somehow explain what they themselves may well have felt was inexplicable. As a kind of “this is how it is, we gotta do it this way” remark. I also suspect there was a bit of an attitude that “these poor foreigners can’t understand me so I’m gonna have to lay it out nice and simple from them in a loud voice with lots of hand waving” – which was wholly wrong of course.

      The “this is a catholic country” comment is manna from heaven for headline writers and those who hate the chuch but is a distraction in getting to the bottom of why this tragedy took place.

      1. woesinger

        Whether it was said or not – why does it shift focus from the root cause of this issue?

        It is precisely the root cause of this issue.

        If it were not for Catholic religious dogma, Ireland would have sensible *legislation* to govern the circumstances in which abortions are permissible.

        If it were not for Catholic religious dogma, no doctor would be in any doubt about what they could and could not do to save the life of a gravely ill woman.

        If it were not for Catholic religious dogma, no one would even hesitate to allow the presence of a foetal heartbeat to prevent them from giving the treatment a grown woman needed to live.

        That Ireland is a Catholic country is precisely why this woman (who wasn’t even Catholic!) is dead.

    2. SBY

      It’s been quoted enough, but not it would seem in any form of full context. However as far as the media – national and international – and the self-flagellating guilt ridden collectivist hordes of Irish middle class are concerned every f**king nurse doctor surgeon and hospital janitor merrily sing that very phrase all day long into the faces of non-catholic foreigner patients and their kin.

  7. Paul2

    The only way something will be done is if we are shamed into doing so. It is mortifying, embarrassing and heartbreaking what has happened. We deserve this international condemnation of our abortions laws.

    1. Frodo Baggins

      For not following the ECHR rulings?
      I’ll admit it does seem a little much here. There should be sanctions, absolutely.
      Kicking out….unfortunately that might leave the rest of us behind and cause us to never ever progress to where we need to be.

      1. Blobster

        As it happens the ECHR is not and never has been part of the EU. Just pointing that out but I suspect you might already be aware.

    2. Rumpleforeskin

      We had referendums on it and the vast majority of the population voted in favour of it but the shitty govts never legislated on it, despite being warned. Not really sure how this fits into your argument but whatever.

        1. Bangalore

          Fianna Fail were in government for most of that time and Bertie tried to introduce a referendum to make abortion even more restrictive.

          so yeah, i also still blame Fianna Fail

  8. Daniel Sullivan

    “You know oftentimes when we talk about extremism, we talk about countries in the Middle East. But when you look at some of the laws that Ireland has when it comes to contraception and when it comes to abortion, you realise just how religious they really are”

    Exacrlty what laws on contraception are they referring to? Certainly the place was a right old mess in the 80s but I’m not aware that there are issues with access to contraception these days.

  9. Caboosicle

    Does anyone actually know if the TV station and news paper are, let’s say, reliable news sources? Or are they versions of The Star/ Fox News, being of course “fair and balanced”?

    1. Twunt

      You say that like we have a fair a balanced media here.

      We do not. The indo and rte are up there with the most agenda driven rags I have ever read.

      1. cluster

        That isn’t fair on RTE.. All media outlets have some bias. RTE is fairly reasonable, in my view. What agenda do you htink that they follow?

    1. Kieran

      +1

      Anytime someone agrees with us saying how f**ked up we are, we circle the wagons and proclaim we’re great!

    2. cluster

      That is fairly typical reaction from most countries. It is akin to when somebody repeats a critcism of your family whcih you youurself have made.

      1. Frodo Baggins

        I’m not defending this sh*t.
        I’m rounding on us as a nation, give them more fodder to attack us with. It’ll get things moving.
        I’m sure teh abuse stories haven’t spread as far as possible, so i’ll be letting people in on that too when i’m away.

    1. Bangalore

      Honour killings are illegal in India. Leaving a woman to die because of bronze age superstition is not in Ireland.

      There’s the difference.

      1. Quint

        I’m 100 per cent pro-choice and pro-abortion but do you genuinely believe the doctors at the hospital ‘let her die’?

  10. Pigeon Street

    BREAKING NEWS: ABM shan’t be joining the debate as his god has sent him to hell for saying “feck” in his last posting.

  11. cluster

    This is typical of the traditional FF/FG political establishment. The issue of legislating on this sort of situation has been open for about 20 years, a fact which has been brought up on Broadsheet numerous times over the last few years.

    But no, there will be no response until a tragedy happens and Ireland’s name is sullied all around the world.

    Enda et al. will go around bragging about how they have persuaded a Bolywood film to shoot some scenes in Ireland in order to gain good publicity, yet seemingly cannot see how damaging poor governance is to our reputation. You literally could not buy this amount of bad publicity if you wanted to.

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