The Educate Together Facebook page today
This morning’s Irish Times reveals how Hindu couple Roopesh Panicker and his wife Najamol Kalangara struggled to find a place for their four-year-old daughter Eva at any of the Catholic schools near their home.
They were repeatedly told, under the schools’ enrolment policies, the schools were entitled to give preference to Catholic children.
Eva is now attending a Catholic school a half-hour’s drive away.
Mr Panicker said
“It is a big Catholic school with lots of spaces. But all the children on our road go to the school across the park. She asks, ‘Daddy why do I not go to the same school as my friends’? I don’t want to fill her head about discrimination, so I tell her little lies about how her school is bigger and better. But she will keep asking and I will have to tell her eventually.”
Further to this, comments on the Educate Together website suggest this problem only worsens when parents are trying to find a secondary school place for their non-Catholic children.
Anyone?
Hindu family fails to get place for child in local school (Irish Times)
Lovely welcoming inclusive religion
sheesh, why doesn’t he just baptise his kids to get into school like the rest of us have to? bloody fordiners coming over here expecting a functioning and inclusive democracy – bloody cheek.
Lazy immigrants
in fairess you raise a valid point in spite of your tone .
to what extend do we need to move mountains to accommodate foreigners – refugees or otherwise.?
It’s an interesting question but I feel the answer would leave us an unsatisfied….no matter where you stand.
bloody heathens creating problems.
I don’t think letting their kids go to the local school is moving mountains so much as providing state-run education that their taxes go towards paying for.
there are plenty of Irish parents raising Irish kids who want this option. Facilitating them would in turn facilitate others
the tone is directed at a system which excludes pretty much everyone. when a policy doesn’t serve the people it’s supposed to, then it’s time for a new policy. in this case, their religion/ethnicity is a moot point. thousands of irish families are going to have to explain to their kids why they can’t go the local school with their friends. and then try and instil concepts such as fair play, inclusion, justice etc? it’s a fukn farce.
oh i know.
I wasn’t having a go.
merely that despite the tone , you made me think of a question.
I think it’s not possible to have a suitable school in walking distance for all.
but i certainly don’t want an Educate together model imposed on me either….calling teachers by their christian (get it !!! ) name bedamned.
how about secular state schools
You mean take religion out of it entirely and make it the responsibility of the parents to educate their children in their chosen faith on their own time?
Madness.
It’s just the mountain of sh*t, we should really get rid of it anyway.
Plus the problem that once some Catholic school deigns to take in a non-Catholic child, the child is either subjected to a half hour of Catholic religious formation a day, or has to sit out and have their ‘differentness’ further highlighted.
*Public school which happens to be run by Catholics.
We need to scotch the term catholic school in Ireland, it’s almost Orwellian, like “catholic child” when what you mean is “child of a catholic parent” – all our primary schools are funded by the public, who are not all catholic, they should be open to all of the public. Let people pay tithes if they want their own sectarian schools.
+
Public school that receives less public funding that a state school. How about that for a fupped up education system?
Public school that uses religion as an admission criteria ONLY when there are more pupils than places, which seems to happen quite often.
What system would you like, a lottery? First come first server with people queueing for days? Interviews?
The catholic criteria is wrong but the root problem is a lack of school places where they are required.
The other factors that schools consider are:
– Siblings attending the school
– Parent teaching in the school
– Age (if one child is 5 and the other is 4 then they give the place to the 5 y/o)
– Distance of house from school
Most of them seem reasonable
Whatever about the problems with introducing a legitimate entrance policy (geographical area seems most logical + if you’ve already kids currently in the school)
Religion of parents is as ridiculous, arbitrary and unfair as political party affiliation of parents, income of parents, skin colour of parents – it has NO place in the mix.
Even if all the problems are solved, it still makes no sense to have as many schools as there are faiths in a one-school town of 2000 people.
And really, at the end of the day I don’t want to live in a sectarian country.
Those are already the standard entrance policies. Quoting from the article…
“The school prioritises applicants in five categories. Catholic children of the parish get first priority, followed by siblings of current pupils, then children of staff, then siblings of pupils in a sister school and finally “non-Catholic children of the parish””
The first is religious discrimination. 2,3 and maybe 4 (if the schools have close ties,like where there’s a boys school and a girls school) seem reasonable.
No one’s arguing for no entrance policies at all, we’re arguing against including prejudice in them, and religious discrimination from services we all pay for.
I’m just saying there’s already plenty of reasonable policies in place, the problem is having policy number one being about the child’s religion (or lack thereof). It’s not going to be some massive free-for-all if you remove the requirement to be catholic. It doesn’t make things unfair to catholic children, it just removes their unfair advantage.
But catholic schools aren’t public schools.
So they shouldn’t need any public funding.
No, except that the State has outsourced it’s provision of education to third parties and is obliged to pay for it.
the State has outsourced it’s provision of education to third parties and is obliged to pay for it.
you’ll find that the third party has the state over a barrel due it’s position of monopoly. if this was any other provider of services to the state there’d be coniptions at the public accounts committee.
they are not public schools they are private schools
The O’Keeffe -v- Ireland case put that bit of word-torture to bed – they are public schools staffed and run by public servants, for whose conduct and actions the State, not the patron, is ultimately liable.
Many state companies actually rent their premises – that doesn’t make them private companies because the building they’re in is privately owned.
i get that a bit where i work; ‘this is a public building, i’ve a right to be here and i can do what i want’. ‘no mate, it’s a private building owned by a public body, now please pull up your pants’..
So do you pull up your pants then scottser?
i assure dog gone, my pants are always up.
Remove all religious teaching from public schools.
Horrible nonsense. So much for the Proclamation that these schools hang in their hallways, promising to cherish the (differently religious) children of our community equally.
I agree 100% it’s ridiculous, but if the Catholic Church runs the school we have to go by their rules. Blame the government not the church.
Rubbish. Schools are run day to day by principals who are public servants – the running costs of the school is covered by the DofE – the public again.
If the current landlords don’t want dirty ungodly children in ‘their’ schools either fund it themselves and go private, or get out of the way. We wouldn’t EVER accept catholic-run public hospitals prioritising patients on their faith, we’re FAR too accepting of catholic-run public schools prioritising intake by which altar the parent worships at.
So the catholic church discriminates against non catholics, but that’s the governments fault…interesting logic there.
Legislation should be passed to prevent any school taking religion into account in terms of admission policies. Better still, all schools should be forced to all have the same state-controlled admissions policies.
Interestingly it’s the preservation of religious ethos part of the equal status act that schools rely on. It actually allows them to do it.
If someone has to be turned away there are not enough places in the school. This is not a religion issue, this is a failure by government to provide sufficient school places.
If every child who applied for enrolment was catholic they still wouldn’t all be accomodated, likewise if every child that applied was non catholic some of them would get a place.
Shame on Fine GAel/ LAbour for this mess.
“If every child who applied for enrolment was catholic they still wouldn’t all be accomodated, likewise if every child that applied was non catholic some of them would get a place.”
The point is, is that when the school is oversubscribed, non-catholic children are FIRST out the door, on the grounds of religion, in a school paid for by that families taxes as much any of the catholic ones.
Number of places is irrelevant, and a separate problem – religious discrimination in a public service is the issue here.
You’re correct Ollie.
People fail to see that it’s the shortage of school places that’s the problem here. This is shown by the fact that it is a large (emptier) catholic school which has been able to offer the child a place.
If it wasn’t her travelling to this larger school it would be one of her little friends – due to an inadequate number of school places.
you forgot to say ‘one of her little non-catholic friends’. but go ahead and defend the indefensible – that’s always good for a laugh from you YD types.
Ha!
your bottomholery is bottomless
Meanwhile all the Irish are trying to get their kids into Gaelscoils.
A nice covert way of avoiding pesky foreign kids.
But 13 out of 63 gaelscoils are multi denominational. And a further 15 are interdenominational.
And 90% of kids in gaelscoils come from non-Irish speaking homes.
The Irish language is a flag of convenience for these places.
In Dublin 1 every single primary school is under the patronage of the Catholic Church. Dublin 1 also has the most mixed population in the country. So that’s a gigantic mess.
So DofEd are building a new school in D1/3. There is a campaign to make this a multi denominational Gaelscoil. Educate Together also want it.
I don’t care whether GS or ET are running it. As long as it’s multi denominational and hopefully my kid can get in. He’s mixed race. So no racism here.
There aren’t many black faces or Lithuanian surnames at the oul Gael scoil either….
You’ve done a survey have you? Checked all close to 200 gaelscoils around the country and compared the precentages with the racial and ethnic profile in each school’s capture area?
It’s not even covert: Gaelscoils are the education equivalent of those UK boarding house signs in the 50s and 60s. Self-selective schooling for the Muesli Belt.
So let’s see your evidence for branding these people and schools, some of which have been in operation for over 40 years, racist.
I can only really go on my own experience, Repro, but we can do a mind-meld later if you’d like!
Ah so you’ve no evidence at all bar your own prejudice. That’s a pity. I was looking forward to reading how a school opened in Ballymun in 1973 was set up to allow the muesli-belt keep their children away from the foreigners.
All the Irish are trying to get their kids into Gaelscoils? Then who’s taking all the spaces in the local school that was too full to take Eva?
Bertie, direct your ire elsewhere. All I know is that there’s powerful, born again interest in the Irish language that can’t be easily explained away by the popularity of Riverdance.
You can’t explain a growing interest in the Irish language so you decide it must be racism and are so confident in your decision that you feel free to denigrate the entire movement in public.
Maith thú Neilo, maith thú.
I can explain my theory for a growing interest in the Irish language: you don’t agree with it and that’s fine.
Please do explain your theory for the racist roots of the growing interest in the Irish language.
The thought only occurred to me when when a parent in a small town let slip that she preferred the fact that no “non- nationals” go to the Gael scoil. A specific example which has give rise to a general suspicion about the inexplicable sudden popularity of these schools.
We’ve bored one another quite enough on this topic, I think.
So one parent’s comment is grounds for your allegation that the over 170 Gaelscoileanna in the state are somehow racist?
And once again you back down from the opportunity to back up your claim about the racist school movement. It’s almost as if you had nothing to back it up but that couldn’t be the case, surely.
The indirect inherent bias against children of non Irish parents may be an attraction for some xenophobic parents, is all.
Since most of the children attending Gaelscoileanna do not come from Irish speaking homes and the schools provide lessons for parents, what inherent bias is there? Does educating children from xenophobic parents make a school racist?
When you came to your conclusions about Gaelscoileanna being for the children of racists did you consider the possibility of parents from non-English speaking countries preferring to have their children educated in the day to day language of their new country?
That’s why I specifically never used that word nor even implied racism on behalf of the schools in any way. On that point you doth protest too much!!
No, you didn’t say it but you strongly suggested it, not just in the comment “There aren’t many black faces or Lithuanian surnames at the oul Gael scoil either….” but in posting it in support of similar overly suggestive comments.
You’re damn right I’m protesting the allegation and your attempt to turn my anger into some sort of evidence of being a racist won’t stop me from protesting this groundless nonsense. The Irish language gets a rough enough ride from Irish people as it is. It certainly doesn’t need idiots trying to link it to racism.
To clarify. I don’t believe these schools are racist. I do believe part of their recent proliferation and popularity is, in part, down to xenophobia.
I meant parents looking in don’t see ‘black faces’ and some of them like that- one parent I know of anyway. I only surmised there may be others. Hopefully not.
So what it boils down to is you judging the parents of children at over 170 schools based on a comment from one parent and being satisified enough with that one parent being representative of the other parents for you to comment on the nature of those who sent their children to the schools.
The fact that this is still going on proves that the Catholic Church still wields a lot of power in the Ireland of today. A secular society exists only in people’s minds. And yet we still pat ourselves on the back for marriage equality.
Not just “Catholic schools”. Church of Ireland ethos schools also give priority to CofI kids.
True. They also prioritise other Protestant denominations before Roman Catholics, and RCs before non-Christians.
It’s almost as if these schools were set up to serve the needs of these religious communities.
Indeed, you will find the CoI admission policies have about 10 levels before you get to “children who are non-Christian or of no religion”.
where are scientologists on that list? if there’s one good thing about the list it would be not pandering to that shower of chancers.
From the IT article:
“He wrote to Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan, Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald and Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin telling them about his concern that Eva could not get a school place within walking distance of her home. “Is it her fault she is born to non-Catholic Irish parents? Is it fair to discriminate children on the basis of religion?”
Both Ministers wrote back, setting out the legal right of schools to set enrolment policies. He says he got a call from the archbishop’s office which “really made me explode”. When Mr Panicker said he had no problem with any religion, he says the caller suggested he have Eva baptised.”
Wow.
Yeah. this is shockingly disrespectful, and the Church would be up in arms if that was the response to a Catholic parent.
The government needs to grow a pair, grasp the nettle, and sort out divestment!
I would back over religious education in my car if i could. Repeatedly, while laughing.
Brilliant. Shotgun!
Better hire a bus, I’m coming too
Q: what does a Hin Du?
A: not go to quack-a-lick schools
Except, of course, she is going to one.
IT was an eggcellent yoke though you must admit, just runny with it, and always look on the sunny side
I think Mr Panicker needs to calm down.
Is there anything to be said for another mass?
Sure they are Hindus, she can go to Hindu school during her next reincarnation.
Our country is stil riddled with conservative Catholics who think their allegiance to the Vatican over their own state is a normal position to hold in a democracy. And some of these people are under 30 years of age. You’ll find them in the Late Late Show audience.
riddled?
Ah yes the Catholic church. The bastion of institutional misogyny and homophobia. Colluder supreme. An organization that requires special child safety arrangements in it’s parishes to protect children from itself. This is who is patron of all these schools. Something is seriously awry here. It simply has to change.