I heard Kevin Kilbane (his daughter Elsie has Down Syndrome) in a radio interview yesterday afternoon utterly roasting David Quinn & the pro life operation about their attempt to use Down Syndrome in their campaigning
worth a listen back
newsjustin
I don’t understand how we’re supposed to have an open, honest and factual debate about abortion in this country if we dont discuss sensitive issues such as:
– rape
– incest
– health complications due to pregnancy
– risk to life due to pregnancy
– disability and disability testing
– term limits for abortion
– bodily autonomy
– the rights, if any, of the unborn
– Down Syndrome and other chromosome anomalies
– socio economics impacts of pregnancy and abortion
– medical ethics
– etc etc
I can understand that people with Down Syndrome, and their families may be uncomfortable with the spotlight, but the debate is a relevant one. Some pro-choice campaigners would like a full and frank and open and honest debate leading up to this referendum, but they would like to pick the subjects for debate, close debates that make them uncomfortable and deny relevant facts and experiences in other countries.
It is fine, for example, to point out that many Irish women have abortions in the UK and show up in their statistics. But please don’t use UK statistics to point out the uncomfortable truth about the widespread abortion of foetuses with Down Syndrome in the UK. We just can’t handle that debate apparently.
Likewise, the terrible experiences of people who have experienced a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality or other grave diagnosis during pregnancy is deemed (rightly) an important part of the debate and one to be considered very carefully. But the widespread abortion of human foetuses with Down Syndrome and the potential that it might happen here? No, no we shouldn’t talk about that….
Andyourpointiswhatexactly?
Ok. You’re pregnant. You find out your baby has DS in a test on week 12. You can’t countenance dealing with it but can’t get an abortion under the present rules. What happens then?
newsjustin
You carry on being pregnant and give birth to the human being, your child, growing inside you.
newsjustin
A test can now be done at 10 weeks though. So, if the 12-week legislation passes, it is likely the option will be there to abort that child in Ireland.
I don’t think that’s acceptable. But it’s good to have the debate.
Cian
I think it is acceptable. if a woman/couple doesn’t think that she/they will be able to raise a child with DS, she/they should have the choice to get an abortion (in Ireland).
Brother Barnabas
that’s a bizarre belief, justin
people in andyourpointiswhatexactly’s scenario are going to the UK
nobody goes through with a pregnancy they “can’t countenance dealing with” or otherwise dont want just because of the inconvenience, expense, discomfort etc of having to take a short flight
repealing the 8th won’t result in irish women having more abortions – just means they can undergo the procedure at home
pro-lifers seem to think women will start having abortions if it’s handy to have one… that’s mind-blowingly stupid
newsjustin
Call it bizarre if you like Brother.
But I think it’s inevitable that more abortions will happen if the 8th is removed and abortion to 12 weeks is legalised. It may well be easier for UK women to come here to have an abortion as the law will actually make abortion more available here up to 12 weeks.
Andyourpointiswhatexactly?
I must set my spare room up for Air BnB so I can rent a room out to the UK posse coming over for abortions. I’ll make a FORTUNE! Even *more* reason to vote for it.
Cian
I think it is inevitable that abortion will become available in Ireland.
However, just because it is available doesn’t mean it will be chosen by everyone.
For those that find abortion abhorrent – I think they should be working on reducing the demand for abortion[1].
So, in the DS example that we’re currently talking about – ensure that there is sufficient support to families that have a child with DS; ensure that there is sufficient support for the people with DS.
For unwanted pregnancies: ensure there is sufficient sex education/availability of contraception/informed reasons for abstinence – to prevent the conception. And/or increase supports for people that feel they can’t afford it. Remove the stigma for people having a baby out of marriage!
[1] I don’t mean by protesting outside clinics and shouting abuse at doctors/patients.
Brother Barnabas
+1 to all that
realPolithicks
As I said yesterday, abortion is a fact of life in Ireland. Irish women are having abortions everyday and this will continue whether the 8th is repealed or not. The real question is how women will be treated in Ireland into the future, will they be allowed to have full control over their own lives or will they continue to be subjected to these penal restrictive laws.
Cian
@newsjustin,
The problem with “open, honest and factual debate about abortion in this country” is that many people with extreme views (on both sides) don’t do adjectives.
They don’t want an ‘open’ debate – they want to debate on their terms.
They don’t want an ‘honest or factual’ debate – they want to pick and choose their ‘facts’.
They want to shout-down their opponents.
And they don’t do empathy. unfortunately.
newsjustin
I agree Cian.
A truly open and honest debate is called for.
Nigel
Justin I disagree with you about abortion but you’re about as good and honest and respectful a debater on the issue as I’ve ever encountered, particularly in giving a secular pro-life view, which is to say you’re a bit of an exception. Right now your side of the debate is being represented nationally by Quinn and the Iona crowd and Mullins, and they are everything you are not. There are respectful ways of debating those issues you list. You won’t get it from them.
newsjustin
Perhaps. And thanks for the vote of confidence this Friday morning.
I think there is some frustration amongst pro life campaigners, and I share this, that the abortion of foetuses with Down Syndrome should not be an issue for discussion in the context of abortion. “Yes, foetuses with Down Syndrome are aborted. But that’s nothing to do with abortion.”
Nigel
I think pro-lifers are perfectly capable of ignoring or even capitalising on purely pro-choice objections to their use of the subject. Pushback from people involved directly with DS has to be taken seriously, though. I think they blundered with this aspect of their campaign and that’s on them.
Cian
I think we need to differentiate between
a) To have a full open and honest discussion about abortion we do need to talk Down Syndrome
b) Using DS solely to further your Pro-Life stance
c) Using DS solely to further your Pro-Choice stance
The first is okay – and is necessary. Either of the other two are out-of-line.
GiggidyGoo
So more documentation emerges. Timing is of the essence. Just happened to be the day after herself finished not remembering a lot. They want to recall her. Any betting she will say ‘I’ve done my duty and attended, so i’m not coming back again’?
Increasing_Displacement
The economist could be one of the worst reads out there
And their Twitter account is a mix of nonsense
Spud
Shame – I always used to enjoy it. Haven’t got it in years though.
Is this a recent happening?
dav
care to elaborate @increasing?
Increasing_Displacement
Not really other than their bashing of all things threatening fiat, and their twitter is a flow of clickbait and drivel.
It’s very easy to read yourself and develop an opinion based on your findings
dav
thanks for that, except the snark
Zoella
Man with the missing wife seems credible, either that or he deserves an Oscar.
That is… mind-blowing! And also slightly damaging to women.
An employer looking at 2 graduates (M + F) with the same grade would look on the woman’s grade with suspicion.
Nigel
Seems like a fairly lame and counterproductive way of adressing any problems. Did they bother to talk to any female graduates about their experiences I wonder?
scarleh fer d ‘examiner’s chief sub
Irish Independent = poo
re. Repeal 8th
I heard Kevin Kilbane (his daughter Elsie has Down Syndrome) in a radio interview yesterday afternoon utterly roasting David Quinn & the pro life operation about their attempt to use Down Syndrome in their campaigning
worth a listen back
I don’t understand how we’re supposed to have an open, honest and factual debate about abortion in this country if we dont discuss sensitive issues such as:
– rape
– incest
– health complications due to pregnancy
– risk to life due to pregnancy
– disability and disability testing
– term limits for abortion
– bodily autonomy
– the rights, if any, of the unborn
– Down Syndrome and other chromosome anomalies
– socio economics impacts of pregnancy and abortion
– medical ethics
– etc etc
I can understand that people with Down Syndrome, and their families may be uncomfortable with the spotlight, but the debate is a relevant one. Some pro-choice campaigners would like a full and frank and open and honest debate leading up to this referendum, but they would like to pick the subjects for debate, close debates that make them uncomfortable and deny relevant facts and experiences in other countries.
It is fine, for example, to point out that many Irish women have abortions in the UK and show up in their statistics. But please don’t use UK statistics to point out the uncomfortable truth about the widespread abortion of foetuses with Down Syndrome in the UK. We just can’t handle that debate apparently.
Likewise, the terrible experiences of people who have experienced a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality or other grave diagnosis during pregnancy is deemed (rightly) an important part of the debate and one to be considered very carefully. But the widespread abortion of human foetuses with Down Syndrome and the potential that it might happen here? No, no we shouldn’t talk about that….
Ok. You’re pregnant. You find out your baby has DS in a test on week 12. You can’t countenance dealing with it but can’t get an abortion under the present rules. What happens then?
You carry on being pregnant and give birth to the human being, your child, growing inside you.
A test can now be done at 10 weeks though. So, if the 12-week legislation passes, it is likely the option will be there to abort that child in Ireland.
I don’t think that’s acceptable. But it’s good to have the debate.
I think it is acceptable. if a woman/couple doesn’t think that she/they will be able to raise a child with DS, she/they should have the choice to get an abortion (in Ireland).
that’s a bizarre belief, justin
people in andyourpointiswhatexactly’s scenario are going to the UK
nobody goes through with a pregnancy they “can’t countenance dealing with” or otherwise dont want just because of the inconvenience, expense, discomfort etc of having to take a short flight
repealing the 8th won’t result in irish women having more abortions – just means they can undergo the procedure at home
pro-lifers seem to think women will start having abortions if it’s handy to have one… that’s mind-blowingly stupid
Call it bizarre if you like Brother.
But I think it’s inevitable that more abortions will happen if the 8th is removed and abortion to 12 weeks is legalised. It may well be easier for UK women to come here to have an abortion as the law will actually make abortion more available here up to 12 weeks.
I must set my spare room up for Air BnB so I can rent a room out to the UK posse coming over for abortions. I’ll make a FORTUNE! Even *more* reason to vote for it.
I think it is inevitable that abortion will become available in Ireland.
However, just because it is available doesn’t mean it will be chosen by everyone.
For those that find abortion abhorrent – I think they should be working on reducing the demand for abortion[1].
So, in the DS example that we’re currently talking about – ensure that there is sufficient support to families that have a child with DS; ensure that there is sufficient support for the people with DS.
For unwanted pregnancies: ensure there is sufficient sex education/availability of contraception/informed reasons for abstinence – to prevent the conception. And/or increase supports for people that feel they can’t afford it. Remove the stigma for people having a baby out of marriage!
[1] I don’t mean by protesting outside clinics and shouting abuse at doctors/patients.
+1 to all that
As I said yesterday, abortion is a fact of life in Ireland. Irish women are having abortions everyday and this will continue whether the 8th is repealed or not. The real question is how women will be treated in Ireland into the future, will they be allowed to have full control over their own lives or will they continue to be subjected to these penal restrictive laws.
@newsjustin,
The problem with “open, honest and factual debate about abortion in this country” is that many people with extreme views (on both sides) don’t do adjectives.
They don’t want an ‘open’ debate – they want to debate on their terms.
They don’t want an ‘honest or factual’ debate – they want to pick and choose their ‘facts’.
They want to shout-down their opponents.
And they don’t do empathy. unfortunately.
I agree Cian.
A truly open and honest debate is called for.
Justin I disagree with you about abortion but you’re about as good and honest and respectful a debater on the issue as I’ve ever encountered, particularly in giving a secular pro-life view, which is to say you’re a bit of an exception. Right now your side of the debate is being represented nationally by Quinn and the Iona crowd and Mullins, and they are everything you are not. There are respectful ways of debating those issues you list. You won’t get it from them.
Perhaps. And thanks for the vote of confidence this Friday morning.
I think there is some frustration amongst pro life campaigners, and I share this, that the abortion of foetuses with Down Syndrome should not be an issue for discussion in the context of abortion. “Yes, foetuses with Down Syndrome are aborted. But that’s nothing to do with abortion.”
I think pro-lifers are perfectly capable of ignoring or even capitalising on purely pro-choice objections to their use of the subject. Pushback from people involved directly with DS has to be taken seriously, though. I think they blundered with this aspect of their campaign and that’s on them.
I think we need to differentiate between
a) To have a full open and honest discussion about abortion we do need to talk Down Syndrome
b) Using DS solely to further your Pro-Life stance
c) Using DS solely to further your Pro-Choice stance
The first is okay – and is necessary. Either of the other two are out-of-line.
So more documentation emerges. Timing is of the essence. Just happened to be the day after herself finished not remembering a lot. They want to recall her. Any betting she will say ‘I’ve done my duty and attended, so i’m not coming back again’?
The economist could be one of the worst reads out there
And their Twitter account is a mix of nonsense
Shame – I always used to enjoy it. Haven’t got it in years though.
Is this a recent happening?
care to elaborate @increasing?
Not really other than their bashing of all things threatening fiat, and their twitter is a flow of clickbait and drivel.
It’s very easy to read yourself and develop an opinion based on your findings
thanks for that, except the snark
Man with the missing wife seems credible, either that or he deserves an Oscar.
Equality, eh…. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/01/22/oxford-university-gives-women-time-pass-exams/
That is… mind-blowing! And also slightly damaging to women.
An employer looking at 2 graduates (M + F) with the same grade would look on the woman’s grade with suspicion.
Seems like a fairly lame and counterproductive way of adressing any problems. Did they bother to talk to any female graduates about their experiences I wonder?